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Posted by: McBadgere May 16 2014, 08:30 AM

Here's the place to discuss anything to do with the Star Wars phenomenon...Whether it's the films, tv, books or even the soundtrack record... ...


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As all Star Wars discussions always end up as a heated debate...I thought a couple of rules may be in order...Well, I say rules, I mean polite guidelines really...

1. No Blasters!!...

2. No Droids!! (Bots )...

3. The person posting above or below you has as much right to their opinion - and their own love of whichever part of Star Wars - as you do...Be respectful of that...

4. Pointless slagging off is discouraged...If you don't like something, fine, that's to be expected...But please try to qualify your not liking with a half-decent reason...Answers like "Because he/she/they suck/It sucks" or that something is completely pointless because it is...Are not really decent reasons...

5. Remember that joy you had the first time you watched some Star Wars thing?...Just remember that there's a generational thing going on here...I remember when the original one came out and loved it...My kids love the newer trilogy...Others love the Clone Wars cartoons...There will be people joining at some point that will have fallen in love the new J.J. Abrams ones, them being the first ones they see...

It's all about being respectful is all... ...

Ta...



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As you were...I think we were debating the changing of the EU by Disney... ...

Posted by: mirocu May 16 2014, 08:41 AM

What has the EU got to do with Star Wars..? Feels like I missed something here


Anyway I only recognize the original movies. No talk about meth clouride or whatever count in the blood, it was just The Force™. A universal power surrounding and penetrating everything, from a living person to the rocks and trees. The movies had personality and charisma, and they were done without CGI fests and they still look convincingly awesome!!!


Just my opinion, naturally...

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 16 2014, 09:13 AM

[Ben Kenobi]
The Nerf Herder's Rest: You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.
[/Ben Kenobi]

Oh, come on, like I was going to pass up that

Meh, these aren't the droids I'm looking for anyway

Or that

Anyways, with regards to EU and Disney: Disney and Lucas can go straight to Hel. Lucas can go on all he likes about the EU inhabiting a seperate universe or whatever, but the fact it given the choice between the EU and Lucas' Star Wars Universe, a lot of fans would pick the EU. Lucas spent too long ignoring Star Wars and profiting from all the licensed material to claim it's still his universe, when it's the dedicated fans buying all the EU material that kept the franchise alive.

The Star Wars Universe moved on, and Lucas' refusal to accept that is going to kill it. And selling out to Disney is the equivalent of Lucas building his own personal Death Star...

Posted by: mirocu May 16 2014, 09:34 AM

What has EU got to do with Star Wars????

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 16 2014, 10:08 AM

The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Expanded_Universe. All the books, games, comics and stuff that have been produced.

Posted by: stargelman May 16 2014, 11:40 AM

The only good Star Wars related news lately was that Bioware can continue to make Star Wars games.

Everything else? Bantha poodoo.

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 16 2014, 12:02 PM

Heehee, this thread now has it's own http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNiOMQZyMT8

Considering what's happened to Bioware since it got bought by EA, I wouldn't call that good news...

Posted by: McBadgere May 16 2014, 12:53 PM

*Does happy dance*...

The Admin™ said Bantha Poodoo!!... ...

I do not have any Star Wars games except the original Force Unleashed...I'd wanted the full version, but was bought the cheaper one for my birthday...I quite enjoyed it for the most part...

I never went near the second one though...

The novel to the first was good, too...

I bought a huge amount of the novels, down the years...It used to be a wonderful thing to go into W.H. Smiths and find a new one was out...Ahhhh*sighs happily*...

Then came the New Jedi Order and the Vong-war and I just turned off it...I still bought a goodly few, but with little interest, really...The Allston/Traviss/Denning Legacy novels were excellent, right up until the point that Denning ruined all the stuff that Traviss had been setting up with the Mandalorians through the series...

*Sigh*...

And then the Clone Wars cartoon retconned the whole of the recenly written history so far, out of existence...

Hey-ho...

I agree that a lot of other peoples' work made the Star Wars universe, and what it is today...

Oh, God bless Aaron Allston...He was my favourite SW novelist and he died the other month... ...Shame that...I must read his last one very soon...

Posted by: mirocu May 16 2014, 02:41 PM

I really like how THE FIRST MOVIE IN THE SERIES (heeeh... ) starts off with Vader storming in like that. It gives a sense of a story having been told for a long time and we have just entered it to tag along till the end. I like how we´re not seeing how it´s all being built up but rather it´s all there right from the start and the characters, some of them anyway, already know each other since many years.

It couldn´t have gotten a better start imo

Posted by: stargelman May 16 2014, 02:46 PM

I quite enjoyed SW:TOR, and I played lots of other Starwars games:

- KOTOR & KOTOR 2 are super duper RPGs
- X-Wing & TIE Fighter were the shit when it came to space combat sim
- Jedi Knight, JK: Outcast and JK: Academy were super light saber fighting games
- Dark Forces was a super shooter

There were others I played, like Pod Racer, Battlefront and Rebel Assault. They were fun for a while but not like the others mentioned.

I couldn't even play Force Unleashed, it would just crash right after starting. From what I read pretty much everywhere, this was a common problem and you belong to some 1% club if you ever get to run even once. Oh well, I got it for like 7 bucks, so...

Posted by: mirocu May 16 2014, 02:48 PM

The only Star Wars game I´ve played is Rebellion and I was soooo hooked on it around the early 2000s. I must have played it hundreds of times through...

Apparently it got bashed alot but I enjoyed the crap out of it and I really think it´s a good strategy game

Posted by: SubRosa May 16 2014, 03:24 PM

Cartoons! Cartoons! They are Anime you Western barbarian!



Oh, well, so much for what I just said!


Wasn't the European Union founded by Jedi Knights?


I am a big fan of all the old Star Wars games like the Kotor and X-Wing/Tie Fighter games. I remember when Dark Forces first came out, and I loved it too. Same with the first couple of Jedi Knight games. Those were all really good games. They are dated now, but I still highly recommend them to anyone. Plus if you can find them, they are probably dirt cheap nowadays!

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 16 2014, 03:26 PM

Could not agree more, if only they'd made a third.



Hell yes they were. Though some of those missins were just brutal



Again, could not agree more. I've still got Jedi Academy, though it doesn't run so well on the 360



Battlefront I loved, though I thought the second one was a real let-down. The Gamecube games, the Rogue Squadron ones, were pretty damn good. The second one, Rogue Leader, was fantastic. I don't think I played any of the other ones, I refused to go anywhere near The Force Unleashed or any of the games based off of the prequels.

Unfortunately overall Star Wars games tneded to be pretty hit and miss

Posted by: McBadgere May 16 2014, 06:30 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rWciV_WBh8... ...

Barbarian?!...Moi?!...*Proceeds to excavate nose with point of dagger with one hand whilst scratching his crotch with the other*...


So yeah...Seeing all this stuff about the day 1 of shooting the new one...And that pic of Harrison Ford has actually got me somewhat excited y'know?...Sorry, I know...Heathen and all that...But I'm gonna be the excited one here, if you don't mind... ...

Just in the interest of balance, you understand... ...

Posted by: ImperialSnob May 16 2014, 07:02 PM

Clone Wars aren't anime.

Posted by: McBadgere May 16 2014, 09:45 PM

Uh-oh...

Respect darlings!...Respect!...

Why don't you think they're Anime, Impy?...

The entire Clone Wars saga is one long story told over four or five seasons, wasn't it?...That's basically qualified for an anime saga series thing right there... ...

I liked the design for that series, I just couldn't get into it...Maybe if I bought a complete boxed set, I might have better luck...I do so like me Kenobi stuff... ...

OOoooh, that's a novel I'll be getting soon...*Goes to search Amazon*...

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 16 2014, 09:55 PM

I'm inclined to agree.

I must get around to watching the films again, I've got them on video though, so it's slightly inconvenient...

Posted by: SubRosa May 16 2014, 10:03 PM

I can see where some people would consider it Western Animation (though aren't most Western Animation shows like the Simpsons actually made in Korea?). It is made for an American audience, the original spoken language is English rather than Japanese, and the characters do not have the big huge eyes and small mouths so common in anime.

I still think of it as anime because it is animated, and is chock full of ridiculously over the top anime-style action: gravity defying leaps, super speed, and the like. Plus of course the show is at least partly made in Asia. It is cgi-driven rather than hand-drawn, but a lot of anime these days is either partly or fully cgi as well, so I do not think that means much either way.

On the topic of the tone of the original 3 movies vs. the following stuff from the European Union, I can see McB's point. The original saga has a very simple story of good vs. evil, with very black and white morality, and of course the good guys win without having to compromise their beliefs along the way (though Yoda tries to get Luke to do that in the second movie of course, but it does not work and he goes into the trap anyway).

I think that simplicity is a big reason for the first movie's success. It came out a few years after Vietnam, and that moral simplicity was a welcome change after years of gut-wrenching ambiguity in RL. I am sure the EU writers are trying to interject more realism into the setting by creating moral ambiguity. After all Real Life is not so cut and dried as things are in the original Star Wars film. Is that better or worse? I suppose it is a matter of opinion. It depends on what you are looking for in Star Wars.

Posted by: McBadgere May 17 2014, 04:43 AM

Good point...That is one thing I absolutely loved about the Bantam series of novels...These were the ones that I bought without even looking at the back cover sometimes... ...I knew that I was going to get a damned good action packed excellent story (in the majority of cases) in which the Heroes™ win and all is well...If a secondary character bought it, well...That is to be expected...But the Heroes™ will emerge unscathed to fight another day...

The X-Wing novels were the exception to this...Where the majority of characters - Wedge Antillies aside - could just be bumped off with no warning...And that was also fine...It was a shame in some cases...But they were fighter pilots, it happened...

But for the main sequence of novels it was Han. Luke, Leia, the kids, Chewie, Lando etc...And we could be happy in the knowledge that they may get their arses handed to them at some point, but we knew all would be well in the end...

Unfortunately...For some reason, it was decided that a little more gritty reality had to be injected into our escapist fantasies...And right from the very first novel I bought of the New Jedi Order storyline, I knew I was in trouble with SW...I had very little interest in the series at all...And it wasn't until the later novels that I actually got any real enjoyment...Sure, it had Aaron Allston's excellent pair that is 100% responsible for my obsession with -Boy names now...Michael Stackpole's were good and it was the books that introduced me to Greg Keyes...But, like I said on the Everything Thread...There was just far too much darkness in the storyline for me...

In the end even Lucasbooks had to admit they had gone too far with it...

I've never gotten back to the previous level of excitement about any of the later novels...As I always figured there'd be something else to bite me just around the corner...

Aaaand I got it with Jacen Solo...Megalomania?...Yup...Force manipulation of your cousin's (Ben Skywalker, Luke's son) brain?...Oh yeah...Killing Mara Jade, Ben's mother and Luke's wife, because she's figured you out?...Oh yeah...That was soooo great, right there...

And then one novelists complete disrespect of what another's been building to throughout the series?...Including two books you've already done, Denning?... ...

*Sigh*...

There is a place for Black & White in these novels...I am NOT opposed to shades of grey, despite what people think...I know I'm all for the good and all that...But I just think that when something is as obviously straightforward as Star Wars is on screen, in terms of Good™ Vs Evil™, then pushing it into adult pseudo-reality fiction is just too much...

It's a shame, I really did love them for a good while...

So now I obsessively buy novels about Space Marines shooting the crap out of each other and Daemons... ...Much more straightforward... ...You know what you're going to get, and they don't disappoint...



EDITIO!!!...



That's just weird...I never had any problem at all with it loading...Was the problem only the PC versions?...I'm PS3 is all...McBoy played it fairly recently - on the newer one we had to buy after the original one (the one I played it on) got the yellow ring of death - and did excellently himself...I'm pretty sure he was most of the way through before he got distracted...Which means it must have been half decent...He has a habit of jumping games... ...

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 17 2014, 09:46 AM

Black and white morality?

You mean the films that culminate in Luke giving in to his anger and pretty much going darkside to beat Vader into the ground and chop off his hand(revenge!), and then goes on to show Vader wasn't actually completely evil, and chose to save his son and kill the Emperor?

Sure, the rebellion versus the Empire might be considered black and white, but the force oriented side of it wasn't.

Posted by: McBadgere May 17 2014, 10:10 AM

Yeah, but also showed that in the end...Good wins through, and evil always gets beaten...The hero™ gets the girl...Everybody lives!!!...

Except in the pre-test-screening version that had Lando dying...That got changed...Hence Han's funny feeling about the Falcon, "Like I'm never gonna see her again..."...

I'm glad actually...The novels with Lando in are always excellent... ...


And yes, the whole "Certain point of view." thing does make everything...Wavery on the moral front I suppose...But broadly speaking... ...Black and white...Good-goodies and boo-hiss baddies...

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 17 2014, 10:20 AM

The thing is, I don't think Jedi can be considered "white" in terms of morality in the films. We've got Kenobi and Yoda, doing nothing but hiding out on Tatooine and Dagobah, basically waiting for someone they can set against Vader, who's introduced as the indisputed baddie.

And who do they use? Vader's own son, not that they tell Luke that.

Then there's Yoda telling Luke not to go to Bespin, and pretty much let his friends die, Luke trying to mind control people in order to save Han, and the fact that Vader was never entirely evil.

It might have been lightside versus darkside, but it wasn't really white versus black...

Posted by: McBadgere May 17 2014, 10:23 AM

Stop that... ...That's...

Bugger...

Yeah, okay...Charcoal & dark-socks-left-in-with-the-whites-wash-white then... ...

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 17 2014, 10:27 AM

I think that's why the Jedi vs Sith thing never ended up being clear cut black versus white, just because while the Sith were always painted as black, the Jedi never really measured up to white.

Hel, even Luke Skywalker fell to the darkside, to try and save everyone. And the Jedi characters in games, always in the role of the hero, were always more grey than anything else...

Posted by: McBadgere May 17 2014, 10:38 AM

But then Luke came back and all was good... ... ...

Stop trying to shake my argument...You can't win Thorny-Boy...If you strike it down I shall become more curmudgeonly than you can possibly imagine... ...

Nah, joking...Fair points all...

But...I still say that they should never have gone as far as they have/did with it...

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 17 2014, 10:41 AM

Now there, I completely agree. I stopped reading once it hit the New Jedi Order, and the ones I did read in that sort of area just didn't grab me.

But I think making Jedi grey rather than white made them better, just because it made them actual characters, rather than paragon type deals, while in contrast the Sith were completely consumed by the darkside.

Posted by: McBadgere May 17 2014, 10:52 AM

But I like paragon types... ...

Nah, it's true...One of my favourite Jedisises - Corran Horn, used to be an undercover operative...So his lying and whatever necessary to get the job done was pretty definitely in the grey area...

Plus, his main force "Talent" was said to be illusion based...All to do with the mind-tricks and everything...

But still, I hope these new ones manage to bring the whole thing up to date and all, but still manage to give that sense of wonder and adventure that the originals had for me anyways...

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 17 2014, 10:56 AM

Corran Horn was awesome! Though strictly speaking his main talent was the ability to absorb energy when it struck him, a Halcyon family trait.

As for the new films, I'm expecting more prequel level stuff. Trampling the EU, overblown and underdeveloped, and generally just a Lucas circlejerk.

And the fact that it's J.J.Abrams directing just makes things worse

Posted by: mirocu May 17 2014, 03:26 PM

Very good points there. Someone has done some thinking, me reckon..

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 17 2014, 03:40 PM

Well, I do love the whole Jedi vs Sith thing...

And yeah, maybe a little thought went into it

Posted by: McBadgere May 17 2014, 03:46 PM

Well that's just over the top...Thinking...Pah...No good ever came from thinking...

Ah, see...Now I like J.J. Abrams stuff...I loved the redone pair of Star Treks...And, as the thing he maintained to Paramount or whoever it was made these last ones, the one thing you have to do with Star Trek to make it better...Is make it like Star Wars...

I'm very happy that he's making them...

No, I'm not happy with the EU stuff...But I can see their point...And it's not like that branch won't be carrying on or anything...There's too much out there now...

As for the Corran thing...Yes, I remember that absorption thing...But I also remember those bits in I, Jedi where he managed to fool most of the Jedi in that circle that he'd lifted the rock...And he hadn't...Then he made the giant figure appear over that city for some reason...I can't remember what...Though that may have had something to do with absorbing energy at the same time, thinking about it...

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 17 2014, 03:51 PM

I refuse to watch the new Star Trek movies. Spock screwing with time? In violation of the Temporal Prime Directive? Destroying Vulcan?

Hel, no!

And the idea of one person having effective control over the portrayal of both Star Trek and Star Wars is a very worrying thought...



Yeah, he had a natural affinity for affect mind but I figure the Halcyon family trait is the main thing with him. Well, that and the accompanying lack of telekinetic ability. And the giant figure appearing over the city was powered by a firestorm set off when Corran took down that hutt boss, to show everyone that the Jedi survived and to burn off the energy that would otherwise have probably made him explode.

Posted by: McBadgere May 17 2014, 03:55 PM

Oh aye...Ta...

I must read that again...Definitely my fave SW novel at the time...And, if I could remember it...It might still be... ...

Struggling to think what my favourite might now be, actually...

Likely something Allston wrote anyways... ...

Those Legacy of The Force novels were really pretty excellent...Up until Invincible...Damn you Denning!!!... ...

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 17 2014, 03:59 PM

I'd probably say I, Jedi is my favourite of the bunch. Fighter pilot turned Jedi? Yes please

I never even bothered with the Legacy of the Force series, I figured that skipping The New Jedi Order would mean most of it just wouldn't make sense. That and yet another re-emergence of the Sith...

Wasn't there another galactic civil war in there too?

Posted by: McBadgere May 17 2014, 04:04 PM

Er...That may have been the ones after them...I haven't done them, despite the Allston-ness of things...Was too pissed at the re-hiring of Denning (Damn you!! )...

The reviews sound like it was good though...

Couldn't tell you if you had to have read the NJO to enjoy Legacy though...Again...Memory being what it is and all... ...My feeling is that you don't...It would be too much for new readers to have to wade through...

Possibly the Correllian trilogy would need reading...There's an awful lot of Thracken Sal-Solo in them...

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 17 2014, 04:09 PM

Thracken Sal-Solo?

Meh, I think they're just trying to keep it too much in the family at this point. We've already had a few lightside/darkside family feuds, they need to come up with something more original to get me back into the books.

I'll stick with the pre NJO books


Edit: Troy Denning... He wrote the Joiner King books...

I really didn't like them

Posted by: mirocu May 17 2014, 10:38 PM

Hasn´t anyone here but me played Rebellion?

Posted by: McBadgere May 18 2014, 03:44 AM

Han's cousin...Basically took over and ran the Corellian system for many years until Han and Leia paid them a visit and sent everything to crap... ...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_wars_novels#The_Corellian_Trilogy...

And then many years later he turns up somewhere else (although that may be Corellia again actually) and they have to stop him again in the Legacy ones...

Told you...It's totally ridiculous that they keep hiring Denning...I really can't see why they do it...He has, by the reviews they've got, totally ruined the sequences with both the ending novels he's done...*Shrug*...





Nope... ...Sorry, most of the games have passed me by...I wanted to do the Rogue Squadron ones when they were about...But they were X-Box...Pfft... ...




Watched Star Wars last night...Awesome!!!...I loved it!!!..

However...In the end I had to play the grumpy-dad card with McDaughter, cause all she kept doing through the early bits was sigh and complain that it was bad...

In the end I had to politely mention that people obsessed with reality tv have no leg to stand on when it comes to suggesting how good something is or isn't...And that without these early ones that she will shut up and watch properly there wouldn't be the Jar Jar ones that she loves so much...

...I did get quite cross actually...Not that I don't respect her, her opinion on stuff or the fact that she doesn't really like it...

No, I got annoyed 'cause she wouldn't shut up about it...As I said, what does she expect to happen?...I switch it off because she's whining?...

Grrrr...

But right there, there's the point I made earlier...Though McBoy was quite happy and did enjoy it, they both love the pre-sequel ones and sat through them with no complaint...This one...Urgh...Now, yes, McDaughter was overtired a bit from a sleep-over the night before...(I was up doing stuff here before she went to bed there, apparently)...But I really don't think she liked it anyways...*Shrug*...

I thought it was excellent though...And yeah, huge amount of continuity problems since George did the other ones...

Off the top of my head...Vader is my age, apparently...That makes Obi-Wan in his late fifties...Owen and Beru Lars should only be - maybe - slightly older than Vader...Damn that Tattooine triple sun thing's harsh on the skin... ...

Having hung around him loads in The Clone Wars, why didn't R2 just rush over to Obi-Wan and basically start to hump his leg?...

Dunno...

I loved all the practical sets in Star Wars so much...That's one thing I'm hoping J.J. will get back to for these new ones...He was very much arguing for that in Trek...Everything that could be built, was...

So there...Yeah...

Posted by: mirocu May 18 2014, 06:23 AM

I did try Rogue Squadron on the PC a few years back. It was just a demo but still quite fun

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 18 2014, 10:25 AM

I think I've actually got those somewhere, but for some reason I never got around to reading them...



Rogue Squadron? They were Nintendo, not Xbox. N64 for the first, Gamecube for two and three. And of course there was Rogue Squadron for the PC. I've played both the Gamecube ones, still have the second, 'cos it's better



So true, the underlined, so very true



Wait, so this was the version where Greedo shot first?

But yeah, the prequels introduced a truckload of continuity problems, personally I find itrther funny that Lucas can't keep continuity in his own, rather small, Star Wars Universe

And he got way too carried away with R2D2 in the prequels, it was just ridiculous.

Posted by: McBadgere May 18 2014, 04:03 PM

Apologies, I can't respond properly and do all the quote things...Faaaar too tired at this point... ...

I think I've actually got those somewhere, but for some reason I never got around to reading them...


They're very excellent books...I really enjoyed them a lot...But that's just me, isn't it?... ..


Rogue Squadron? They were Nintendo, not Xbox. N64 for the first, Gamecube for two and three. And of course there was Rogue Squadron for the PC. I've played both the Gamecube ones, still have the second, 'cos it's better


Oh aye, fair enough...I just remember &^%$-ing brother playing it/them on something...And he has a truly absurd collection of consoles...Even more so than Crow-Boy... ...


Wait, so this was the version where Greedo shot first?

Yes, yes it was...Urgh...I never had a problem with Han shooting first...Pre-emptive self-defence is completely fine with me... ...Besides, it's not like Greedo wasn't going to shoot, was it?...Okay, technically it is murder...But, whatever...Laws of the Jundland Wastes and all that... ...

Scum and villainy!!!...

Posted by: SubRosa May 18 2014, 06:27 PM

I think I recall that R2 and 3P0 had their memory wiped at the end of Revenge of the Sith? That is when Captain Antilles became their master, on the Rebel Blockade Runner. Though it does not account for Obi-Wan not recognizing them. Though I suppose that could be put down to there being other droids that look and sound exactly the same. Not that I recall ever seeing them in any of the movies mind you...

Posted by: McBadgere May 18 2014, 07:46 PM

Actually, Bail Organa says "Have the protocol droid's memory wiped..." and nothing about R2...We discussed this with McBoy and he remembers the same...

So R2 remembers it all...

Plus...That blasted Denning wrote a novel called Tatooine Ghost...Which, if I'm honest, was actually half decent...Dealt with Leia finding Shmi Skywalker's journal and going through it...And Luke managing to access some of R2s memories of Anakin...

And his discovering the bit where Anakin strangles Padme on Mustafar...

Anyways, yes...R2 still has his memories...

Oh, yeah!!...Another wossname...Continuity thing...

C-3PO was known to Owen and Beru...Okay, there was supposed to be many -3PO droids...But surely that one was tied to Anakin should have raised some sort of memory...He seems to remember enough about what happened to Skyguy...

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 18 2014, 08:39 PM

Yeah, Lucas amusingly enough had no regard for even his own works as far as continuity is concerned. And the majority of the fans had no problem with Han shooting first, but Lucas didn't like that fans liked Han for doing so. So the idiot meddled, and did a piss poor job of it.

All this talk of Star Wars is going to get me back into reading the books and watching the films, once I'm done with Lord of the Rings, I think...

Posted by: McBadgere May 18 2014, 08:56 PM

*Applauds*...Yeah, I was going to read the Captain Nemo novel I bought the other week...A new one from Kevin J. Anderson, writer of the Jedi Academy trilogy from very early on in the SW novel run...

But I think I'm going to do Allston's Mercy Kill instead...Can't beat the X-Wing novels...Absolutely loved the Wraith Squadron ones...So different from Stackpole's Rogue Squadron ones, in that the Wraiths are more like covert ops than fighter pilots, though they can do that too...

It was nice when the Wraiths turned up in the NJO briefly actually...That was cool...

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 18 2014, 10:09 PM

I always preferred the Rogue Squadron X-Wing titles to the Wraith Squadron ones. I think Wraith Squadron would have worked better with someone other than Wedge Antilles in command. For a commando unit with a diverse skillset, he was easily the weak link in the unit, being only a fighter pilot.

I typically start a Star Wars novel run with the X-Wing series, then branch out from there. The Hand of Thrawn trilogy's on the list, as is The Jedi Academy, I, Jedi, The Thrawn duology that came later, the Correlin trilogy that I just rediscovered, and then I don't know what

Posted by: McBadgere May 19 2014, 01:11 PM

Well, Wedge was never meant to be in the Wraiths in the first place...It was meant to be either Wes Janson's team from the off, or Hobbie Kilivan(sp?)...

Anyways, Hobbie's mentioned in the first one as taking over the running of Rogue Squadron while Wedge got on with the forming and running of Wraith Squadron...

But Allston's idea had nothing to do with Wedge...Lucasbooks and whichever the woman was...I forget...Put her foot down and insisted that Antilles was the hero of the X-Wing books so he had to lead the team...

I think he did alright, but yeah, he was a much better pilot than operative...Though Allston did excellently making him do both, I thought...

I sometimes wish I didn't have so many books that aren't SW to go through...Putting off a new one to go back to Children of The Jedi (another favourite) or the Black Fleet Crisis ones is very difficult to do...Sadly... ...

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 19 2014, 02:01 PM

I always thought he was a little too passive in the Wraith Squadron books, which isn't really surprising. Personally I think they should have thrown Corran Horn in charge. Out of all the Rogues he was the most useful outside of an X-Wing.

I keep meaning to get hold of The Black Fleet Crisis trilogy, they're some of the only pre-NJO, and now post Old Republic, books that I haven't got. Never manage to get around to it though. Maybe this time I'll remember

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 20 2014, 01:24 PM

I'm watching Star Wars!!!

Han just shot Greedo!

Greedo didn't get a shot off!!

@%#% you Lucas!!!

Posted by: mirocu May 20 2014, 09:31 PM

That´s how it´s done!!

Posted by: McBadgere May 20 2014, 10:11 PM

*Applauds*... ...

I much enjoy many of the redone effects in the '97 version...But the whole Greedo/change some of the cantina patrons...Not so much...

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 20 2014, 10:22 PM

This is the only upside I credit vhs with: that only on video can you see the proper version of Star Wars

Posted by: mirocu May 20 2014, 10:24 PM

I´m so happy I got the trilogy on VHS! Such a nice box it is and fun to have

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 20 2014, 10:27 PM

I'm just glad I don't have to put up with Lucas' bs.

Han didn't shoot first

Han just shot

Greedo just died

Posted by: mirocu May 20 2014, 10:28 PM

PERIOD!

Posted by: McBadgere May 21 2014, 04:20 AM

Yeah, I've got them on VHS too...Sadly, I've not got a VHS player anymore... ...So it's DVD all the way, baby!!... ...

Posted by: mirocu May 21 2014, 07:32 AM

I still have my VHS from before the new millennium..


On topic: To watch Star Wars on

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 21 2014, 11:23 AM

*Shakes head*

Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny

McB has fallen to the darkside

Posted by: mirocu May 21 2014, 11:31 AM

Why? He said he used DVDs

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 21 2014, 11:33 AM

Original Star Wars on DVD is the Lucas remastered version.

That is the darkside...

Posted by: mirocu May 21 2014, 11:37 AM

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, okidoki

You might even call it.... A TRAP!!!

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 21 2014, 11:38 AM

And soon, I'm going to be watching The Empire Strikes Back

On VHS of course

Posted by: mirocu May 21 2014, 11:39 AM

Wait! I´m coming over with some popcorn!!

Posted by: Grits May 21 2014, 11:41 AM

I still haven’t watched the Clone Wars series. That’s in the works. Should get to it by next summer.

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 21 2014, 11:41 AM

Don't be silly

You never have popcorn

And just for more Star Wars-ness in this post, I'm reading the Star Wars: X-Wing novels again! Nearly finished the first one

Posted by: Darkness Eternal May 21 2014, 12:14 PM

Anyone read Darth Plagueis by any chance? If so, what did you think of it?

Posted by: McBadgere May 21 2014, 12:48 PM

In reverse order...

DE...I was actually very interested in the idea of a Darth Plagueis novel...And had it not been James Luceno, then I'd have had it...

Sadly, James Luceno and "Damn You" Denning are pretty much on the same level of "Not worth spitting on..." in terms of quality... ...Shame really...I actually gave up on the Millenium Falcon novel Luceno did...I really did try, just for the Falcon's sake... ...

Thorny!!!...My video player died and there was just no point buying another one...I could buy the versions with the Theatrical Release on...But that's more money again, and I'm so not that arsed really...

Whether that makes me less of a fan or not...I no know!...*Shrug*... ...

I'm doing this last Allston, X-Wing novel - Mercy Kill - meself...

I envy you your time, sir!!... ...

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 21 2014, 02:23 PM

Well, I never read Darth Plagueis, though as far as James Luceno goes, I don't think he did too bad a job with Labyrinth of Evil and Dark Lord, they were pretty good books. I think they're the only books of his that I've read though.



To paraphrase Yoda:

Quicker, easier, more seductive, the dark side is

Posted by: McBadgere May 22 2014, 01:10 PM

I'd forgotten how much I loved Allston's books...I mean, yeah, you ask me who's my fave SW author - Allston...Straight off...But reading Mercy Kill reminds me why...

I may have to buy the previous sequence that he did with "Damn You"...And, just like I did with the first one...Not buy the ending novel...

I just couldn't...

But, Allston rocks, so bad... ...



RIGHT!!!...


INFORMAL POLL TIME!!!!...


FAVE STAR WARS CHARACTERS?!!!!...Go*Points*...Give reasons why, if you want...But it's not necessary... ...

Just, who's yer Wars-y-boy/girl thang?...

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 22 2014, 02:20 PM

Favourite Star Wars characters? I'll avoid the characters from the films, just because they're the obvious choices:

Revan, pre TOR that is. Just for being epic, while still retaining depth of character.

Kreia, from KotOR2: the grayest character ever in Star Wars, but saying anymore would be a KotOR 2 spoiler.

Corran Horn/ Kieran Halcyon: Fighter pilot, detective, Jedi, and he even set Luke straight on a couple of points in I, Jedi.

Darth Bane, for utter badassery and clarity of vision. He might have been Sith, but he was THE Sith.

And of course:

Grand Admiral Thrawn.

Just for being Grand Admiral Thrawn.

Because no more reason is needed

Edit:

*Facepalms, with planet shattering force*

I can't believe I forgot Kal Skirata and Bardan Jusik

Posted by: McBadgere May 23 2014, 06:28 AM

Ah, those Imperial Commando books were definitely amongst the best...Shame Lucasfilm and whatsit Filoni decided to shaft Karen Traviss with all that... ...

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 23 2014, 10:20 AM

Yeah, that really was a shame, the characters were bloody brilliant

Anyway, where're your favourite Star Wars characters?

You've yet to list any...

Posted by: McBadgere May 23 2014, 10:22 AM

Well, I was hoping to encourage others to join in the discussion, rather than take it all up ourselves...Y'know?... ...

Once I think about it properly, I'll let you know... ...

Likely to be Corran Horn and Wedge Antilles at the top though... ...

Posted by: mirocu May 23 2014, 10:23 AM

Corran Horn?

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 23 2014, 10:25 AM

One of the characters from the Expanded Universe. Actually all my picks are from the Expanded Universe.

Posted by: mirocu May 23 2014, 10:26 AM

Meeeeeeehh....


I go with Han, Vader and Yoda. Now that´s the A-Team!

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 23 2014, 10:28 AM

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

For everything you could ever want to know, and everything else, about Star Wars

Just thought I'd throw this in here...

Posted by: mirocu May 23 2014, 10:34 AM

Does it contain a section about the real Star Wars only...?

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 23 2014, 10:36 AM

http://starwars.com/news/gareth-edwards-and-gary-whitta-onboard-for-star-wars-stand-alone-film.html

Just saw a thread about this over at Bethsoft.

DAMN YOU DISNEY!!!!!!!

Posted by: McBadgere May 23 2014, 10:39 AM

*Is actually looking forward to that*...

...

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 23 2014, 10:41 AM

You're looking forward to Disney-made Star Wars spinoff/cashgrabs?

Now where did I put that saberstaff...

Posted by: mirocu May 23 2014, 10:46 AM

Let me share a good Nostalgia Critic quote:

"Don´t get too offended at all the changes made as long as you still have the original to enjoy"


I´m gonna remind myself of that quote everytime someone brings up Expanded Universe

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 23 2014, 10:47 AM

Expanded Universe is awesome.

Save that quote for the *shudders* prequels

Posted by: mirocu May 23 2014, 10:49 AM

Maybe you´re right. I thought of the *shudder* prequels as part of the Expanded Universe. Not really sure about what things are being called these days..

Posted by: McBadgere May 23 2014, 10:53 AM

Well yeah...Any Star Wars in the cinema is good for me...

We have a severe lack of decent adventure sci-fi at the moment...

And as J.J. has abandoned Trek for Wars then I'm happy to have however much they want to give headed our way...



As for the Expanded Universe...Quite obviously there are those that love it, and those that think it should stop with the films...

As I said at the start, I respect that...And don't feel that either side should be disparaged in any way...

But I know how much I've loved reading the E.U. stuff...Even if I'm having trouble remembering a lot of it now...*Sigh*...

But I'm pretty definite that Mercy Kill is headed to the top of my list of the most awesomely amazing favourite SW novels ever...It's so brilliant, it's almost tear inducing...

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 23 2014, 10:53 AM

Well, Lucas considers the films his universe, and the Expanded Universe the other universe. So for Lucas, only the films are canon.

Most fans of the EU consider it all Star Wars canon, except for the prequels.

And some people consider all of it to be canon.

And Disney consider it a cash-cow to be milked.

Of course, it would be so much simpler if Lucas hadn't made the prequels



I thought the same once, and then I saw the phantom menace

I do agree with you about the lack of adventure sci-fi though, really need to see some more...

Posted by: McBadgere May 23 2014, 11:00 AM

Yeah...Okay...And once more I will point to my two...One of which is almost begging to be allowed to not watch Empire, but says The Phantom Menace is her favourite...

*Shrug*...

I enjoyed The Phantom Menace...And will more than likely watch it again at some point...I'm still not sure what everyone's problem is with it...And bear in mind that any opinion is all From A Certain Point Of View™...

Posted by: mirocu May 23 2014, 11:03 AM

Wise words from the scruffy-looking Nerf herder

Posted by: McBadgere May 23 2014, 11:10 AM

Who's scruffy look-*Catches sight of reflection*...

Nevermind... ...

Posted by: SubRosa May 23 2014, 04:20 PM

That's good for Star Trek. Bad for Star Wars though... If Disney owning the franchise was not bad enough... Now if they could get someone like Bryan Singer to make the movies, they might turn out decent.

Posted by: stargelman May 23 2014, 04:27 PM

At least Rick Berman and Brannon Braga aren't ruining Star Wars now, so... it could be worse

Posted by: McBadgere May 23 2014, 05:59 PM

Well, unless Singer's got a good lawyer, he's not going to be making much except himself known to the prison warden for a while... ...if the allegations are proved true etc...

*Sigh*...Well, I'll just continue to be the lone J.J. fan in the room then... ...I don't mind, I've been a fan of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xvIMxjEZhw for long enough...I'm used to it... ...

Well, I'll be first in the queue for all and any SW films that come our way...Well...With the kids anyways...No, I'm not dressing up...Well...Maybe give the Obi-Wan look a spin...Who knows?...



Berman and Braga...*Shudders*...

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 23 2014, 07:54 PM

Aargh!

All this talk of Star Wars has me itching to break out a game. I've got Jedi Academy, but I doubt it'll run too well on the 360

Which leaves me with KotOR 1 & 2, and getting them to run on windows 8 will be a pain. Assuming I can even get them to run.

And my options for picking one up for the 360 are either Lego Star Wars, or The Force Unleashed

*Sigh*

Posted by: stargelman May 23 2014, 08:04 PM

I guess TOR ain't a crowd favorite around here

Posted by: Darkness Eternal May 23 2014, 08:08 PM

Favorite characters: Darth Maul, Darth Vader, Darth Sidious, Darth Tyranus, Darth Bane( thank you sir for helping the Sith.survive), Darth.Zannah. I sort of liked Darth Revan but he was corrupted by the lightside after being manipulated and brain-wiped by the Jedi. Starkiller was interesting but he, like Revan, turned evil.

Now, Jango and Boba are my favorites non-force users.

Edit: Star Wars 1313 and.Star Wars: Damage being cancelled was the worst decision ever made. We would've played as Boba Fett and Darth Maul as the protagonists. What the hell George Lucas!? And screw Disney.

Posted by: McBadgere May 23 2014, 09:10 PM

Lego Star Wars is bloody awesome though... ...I mean, come on!...Who doesn't love the Lego Han and his winking?...Or the Lego Lando's hand kissing thing?... ...Love it!!!!...


DE...I never imagined that...Not for a second...You've chaaanged... ...

Oh, wait ...No...Nevermind... ...

( )...

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 23 2014, 09:43 PM

Vader, Sidious, Tyrannus, and Bane, I get. They were all good characters, and I love the books focusing on Bane. But Maul? Does he get a pass just for being a Sith? That guy was a major letdown as Sith go. Not only was he an utterly one-dimensional character (one of the worst parts of the phantom menace was that flop of a villain compared to Vader) but he then got himself sliced clean in two by a padawan.

[[edited by stargel: major spoiler wrapped in spoiler tag]]

"Corrupted be the light side", "turned evil", are you trying to run the old "Jedi are really the evil ones, and the Sith are the righteous" argument?

Because if so I'm more than happy to throw down about that


McB- Maybe the one that covers the first three movies (as in IV, V, VI) could be worth considering...

Posted by: Vital May 23 2014, 10:25 PM

I swear I played one like that on my ds ages ago...

Posted by: McBadgere May 24 2014, 03:50 AM

Well, as long as it's respectful of the rights of others to disagree...Go for it... ...

As for Lego Star Wars...

The Complete Saga was the first game I ever played on the PS3 and was impressed by how much the graphics were an improvement on the PS2, Original Trilogy game...I'm not sure about the X-Box versions...How much they changed/improved or anything...

But I definitely prefer the cantina in the PS2 one to the PS3 one...So much bigger and more stuff to do...

I've completed both PS2 games to 100%...I've never finished the PS3 one...I can never get through the third film in either set...*Sigh*...The same for the second Lego Indy one...But that's a different franchise... ...

Posted by: Darkness Eternal May 24 2014, 12:52 PM

The movies didn't do Darth Maul any true justice on his character. He was a mysterious, dark-clothed Sith we knew nothing about. All we knew about this guy is that he's an alien, he wants revenge against the Jedi, he's a Sith Lord and he's apprentice to Sidious. The EU did give him more justice than the movies ever did, and I started liking him much more since we got more story on him. I guess, though, that EU is no longer canon so we have to stick with what we saw of him in the Clone Wars(I hate you, Dave Filoni).

The fact that he got sliced in two by a padawan was due to his overconfidence as a Sith Lord. His ego, as many Sith, is way high. Hell, Sidious warned him that he's not a one-being army and that if he keeps being cocky he's going to end up getting more than scratch(he told this to him after he got wounded after butchering a bunch of Black Sun criminals all over the Outer Rim territories). As far as I remembered, Maul, a Sith apprentice killed Jedi master( a skilled Jedi MASTER) Qui-Gon Jinn, and then was able to overpower Obi-Wan and leave him hanging for his life. Instead of killing the padawan, Maul taunted him. That's what got him sliced in half, his arrogance.

Darth Vader was the same deal. His arrogance and believing he had the ultimate power resulted in his losing of his limbs and suffering fourth-degree burns and encasing him in a metal suit of a prison his entire life. Darth Tyranus was overconfident as well in his duel against Anakin Skywalker. He believed he had the upper hand and could use Dun Moch(a technique used to lower an opponent's self esteem via psychological warfare) and he lost his head when it backfired on him.

Hmm, on Revan:

The whole Sith being good and Jedi evil is more of a tease I like to use through my own point of view. Like I said, going by the books, the Sith believe the Jedi are corrupt, hypocritical, and to some extent, evil(Darth Vader, and Darth Tyranus referring Yoda to a "shriveled and evil green potato). I just believe it is a matter of perspective, and everything else is just relative.

Posted by: stargelman May 24 2014, 01:55 PM

Could everybody discussing Revan please use spoiler tags? I'm not sure everyone here has played KOTOR yet, and it's such a great game we shouldn't throw around these spoilers carelessly

Posted by: McBadgere May 24 2014, 03:19 PM

KOTOR...That's one area I have absolutely no idea about...I read all the spoilers...I have no idea what it's all about anyways... ...

I very much enjoyed the portrayal of Sidious in the Revenge of The Sith novel...It really does make him so cool...And it makes Anakin's descent seem more logical, in a way...

My ideal is Jedi, all the way...But with this old anger of mine?...Nope...More than likely be a Sith lackey... ...

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 24 2014, 06:17 PM

Well the thing with Darth Maul was that he was a weapon, nothing more, nothing less. In one of the books it's mentioned that Sidious confessed to Tyranus that he actually made a mistake with the training of Maul, so it's not simple overconfidence that let him down.







I don't even think perspective comes into the Sith opinion of the Jedi. I think it's about indoctrination. Due the nature of the power of the darkside, training apprentices who are indifferent to the Jedi isn't going to be nearly effective as training them to hate the Jedi. And considering that by the time they reach Sidious' era, the Sith have spent a thousand years miring the Republic, and by extension the Jedi, in corruption, they can't really point the finger at them.

Personally I can't see the Sith as anything but evil, not because of their use of the darkside, but simply through their actions. Considering the amount of pain and suffering they caused in the thousand years they spent to destroy the Jedi, they really can't be considered anything else.

And even before that, they still come out as evil.

And while the Jedi might use the lightside of the force, in terms of morality they are most definitely gray. For the most part at least. There are some exceptions, but they are admittedly few and far between.

Posted by: Darkness Eternal May 24 2014, 08:22 PM

When you look at it, Maul was a weapon and while overconfidence did play part on it(Sidious chided him once about it), it was due to Sidious' lack of proper training as you said but it hardly changes Maul's talent. As Dooku put it"he was an animal, a skilled animal, but a beast nonetheless." When you look into it, Maul was used for a number of things to covertly further the Sith agenda, including killing Jedi, a large crime syndicate, etc. He was a weapon, yes. But he was also an apprentice, for he learned the ways of the Sith at Sidious' feet.

Dooku/Darth Tyranus was also a weapon. He was used and prized for his political astuteness and his old title of count and his resources, as well as his Jedi training which Sidious enjoyed cause it would mean he wouldn't have to train someone from the start, as he didn't have enough time when his plan was put into motion. Still, Tyranus was used for everything. He helped finance the Clone Wars with his own money to further the Sith agenda, and I believe these were his last thoughts on the matter too . . . how he had been used and lied to all these years by Sidious who used him more as a tool than an apprentice.

Dooku thought he was going to be helping build an Empire of force-users composed of turned Jedi and skilled assassins in his Empire of Man and that Anakin would turn to the Dark Side and become a general in that army after Dooku surrendered himself purposely after killing Obi-Wan. Instead of his plans going smoothly, Sidious actually goaded Anakin into overpowering and killing Dooku, prompting the old man to figure out he was just fuel for Anakin's fire. That he would be Anakin's first cold-blooded execution(I'd count those animals we call Sand-people or Tusken raiders but that's a different story altogether).

Darth Vader was promised much, too. He was Sidious' prize weapon during the end of the Clone Wars after Dooku. Sidious used his newfound thirst for blood useful and set him out to assassinate the Jedi in the Temple and the Separatist Council, and if he crosses paths with Obi-Wan, him as well. After the events of Mustafar, Sidious sought to replace Vader with Galen Merek/Starkiller as a much more useful tool. Since it may not be canon any longer, we also have to consider Sidious doing something similar with Luke in Return of the Jedi.

Where am I going with this? I just think all of Sidious' apprentices were used more as his own little murderous weapon box, he just liked each of them for their separate qualities and when something better came along, he would toss them aside.

I won't get into Revan that much because I honestly never got too deep in the story to make my own well-judged conclusions, so I humble say I sort of suck in that area of Revan.



Indoctrination is a strong word I think. Indoctrination would be taking a child from their parents because of their force-sensitivity, taking them to a temple were they would train day in day out, learn to eradicate their natural emotions that make them human(or humanoid); fear, anger, hate, love . . . and become emotionless sword-wielding zealots. Jedi pluck young children for their training for the sole purpose of them not being "too old". They would be easier to train, easier to mold, and easier to use.

Sidious believed himself a savior of the galaxy after he wiped out most of the Jedi. Darth Vader believed he was bringing peace and order to the galaxy, and when he didn't get his chance to kill Sidious, he offered his son a chance to join him to do the same. Bring order to the galaxy. Darth Tyranus believed the Republic was corrupt. He's always believed so, and I can pull out a few quotes by them in the books. They do have a perspective on the matter that is a little higher than simple indoctrination/mindless brainwash. We see time and time again each Sith have their own ways of understanding the Dark Side but they all mirror in their hatred for the Jedi and their ways.

Posted by: McBadgere May 24 2014, 08:26 PM

And all this from a Saturday morning kids adventure film...

Sometimes, I can absolutely side with Mirocu in the whole film v E.U. thing... ...

I genuinely have nothing but respect for those that follow and, most importantly, remember the lore behind stuff...

But sometimes, I feel that it (the Lore) goes too far into some stuff...

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 24 2014, 09:54 PM

As I recall, Sidious' mistake that he admitted too was making Maul too full of rage. I suspect that contributed more to his death than overconfidence. Which is what made him only a weapon. From Sidious' perspective he was a failure.



I wouldn't call Dooku a weapon, more a tool. He served as a visible leader for the Confederacy, and being a former Jedi helped set up the idea that the whole war was perpetuated by the Jedi. Being wealthy made him more useful, as did the fact that Dooku sought Sidious out.

Not sure about the whole Empire of force users thing though, Dooku was aware of the Rule of Two, and the reasons behind it. Where does it cover that part?



And I don't think Vader was meant to be a weapon either, he only became one because he wasn't suited to anything else after Mustafar. Between the whole chosen one thing and the Plagueis ability that Sidious was chasing, I'd expect that to be Sidious' chief use for Vader.

Maul was a failure, Dooku was a tool, but only Vader was truly suited to be his apprentice, prior to the events of Mustafar. And Luke would gave served as Vader's replacement. And point of interest: Considering how Return of the Jedi ended, and that turning Luke to the darkside was Vader's idea, not the Emperor's, I think it's safe to say that Vader's motivation was sparing Luke, not bringing peace and order to the galaxy.

I'm going to skip over the everything past this point, because when arguing over ideology it can get real messy. And to be frank, considering my opinion of the Sith, I've actually had to scrap several replies simply because they came far too close to getting personal.

Posted by: SubRosa May 24 2014, 10:04 PM

DE, I was always under the impression that the Master/Apprentice relationship you described was exactly how it always worked with every Sith Lord from the beginning. The Master used their Apprentice(s) as a tool, and carefully watched to insure they did not become too powerful. When they came near that point, they killed them off and replaced them with someone else. While at the same time the Apprentice was always planning on one day killing the boss and taking over. It was always a lethal game of chess between the two. A stark contrast to the Jedi and their Padawans.

Posted by: Darkness Eternal May 24 2014, 10:28 PM

Tools or weapons . . . I meant to say they were all Sidious' pawns in the end, including Vader post-Mustafar.

You're right on Dooku and the reason Sidious chose him. He had all the resources. Sidious couldn't go wrong with a man Dooku's age who was respected in the Jedi Order and out of it.

On the Empire thing, he's an excerpt from the novel.

I do recall in the books that Vader did want to turn Luke on the Dark Side to overthrow the Emperor. It was his plan since Revenge of the Sith. I did find it interesting how Anakin was so close to Palpatine and had a son-father relationship and upon turning Sith all he wanted to do was kill the man after he had what he needed.

Vader in the end was Sidious' own pawn, too, wouldn't you agree? Their relationship sort of differs from that Bane had with Zannah and so on so forth. I think Sidious was entirely selfish here, not thinking on the Sith agenda as his Sith predecessors. Why should he anyway? He became the Emperor of the galaxy and his enemies were wiped out. Still, I do believe he could've done much more.

Hmm, getting too personal? You mean getting into a personal argument directed at me or just how you feel about the fictional Sith Order? Don't be afraid to share your thoughts and use your anger . . . it gives you focus. Makes you stronger



This is true for the older generations of Sith. But the master/apprentice relationship was one that had both understanding their own fates. What Sidious did different was that he lied to his apprentices about the ultimate goal, I suppose. At least he did so to Dooku. Darth Bane told his apprentice from day 1 that she would have to kill him when she's ready and take over to continue the Sith line. I don't think Sidious ever bred that sort of idea to his apprentices(I could be wrong) but he promised Dooku a Sith Empire, and Darth Vader a wife saved from certain death. Never once did he lure them as Bane and Zannah did with the core doctrines of the Sith that said that one of them would have to die so another could take over.

Again, things changed because they were much closer to the fall of the Jedi that their ultimate motives simply went beyond the Rule of Two. The whole point of the Rule of Two was to keep the Sith Order from infighting and becoming weak and of course resulting in their own annihilation by the Jedi. It also served to slowly go through time unseen while machinating the Grand Plan(or the Sith Imperative) which is the death of the Republic and the jedi. When the Sith revealed themselves to still exist and when the Jedi and the Republic fell, I suppose their plans sort of shifted. Their goals became different.

It really depended on each individual Sith Lord. Along Bane's Order of Sith each Sith tried to change the rules a bit. Namely Darth Plagueis wanted Sidious to rule while he was the manipulator. Sidious was to be the public face and he was to hide behind the scenes and find eternal life. He believed the Rule of Two had passed its time since the end of the Jedi and the Republic drew near, and he wanted a master/apprentice relationship with Sidious that wasn't lethal which is exactly the opposite of how it was meant to be. In the end Sidious betrayed him while he drank wine and killed him in his sleep(both literal and metaphorical I suppose).

Dooku never intended to kill Sidious. Maul didn't either until he came back 13 years later and saw things went in motion without him. Darth Vader, on the other hand, wanted to kill Sidious as soon as he ensured Padme's safety. Even when he was Anakin he only protected Sidious from Mace Windu's wrath because he wanted her alive, not out of any friendship they previously had. "You can't. He must stand trial. I need him!"

Posted by: Darkness Eternal May 24 2014, 11:25 PM

I swear when I get my hands on Disney . . . .

First 1313, a rated M Star Wars game where we play as Boba Fett in a spiritual successor to Star Wars: Bounty Hunter starring Jango Fett(that game made him a much more sympathetic character than we saw in the films).

And now http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2014/04/09/art-from-the-darth-maul-game-you-39-ll-never-get-to-play.aspx?PageIndex=4#comments. The concept art had me drooling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0MKLnTqjLM

Posted by: ImperialSnob May 24 2014, 11:29 PM

Disney are gonna do awesome stuff with SW.

I have all my trust in Disney, so what if they canceled 2 games. Great ideas for games get scrapped all the time.

Posted by: Darkness Eternal May 24 2014, 11:36 PM

The word Disney has me on edge. They cancel a rated M Star Wars game, and then they cancel one where a Sith Lord is the main character.

I don't have my trust in Disney yet. Instead of pinball Star Wars or Angry Bird Star Wars . . . they should give us something a bit more mature and not childish and kiddy like half of their stuff. My only faith is in the New Battlefront, but I'm sure Disney will allow developers to make SW games if we play as some ultimate Jedi hero saving the galaxy or some good-hearted smuggler smuggling food for children in the Outer Rim territories . . . or better yet, a take-care-of-your Bantha game!

Posted by: ImperialSnob May 24 2014, 11:38 PM

WOAH WOAH WOAH!

PINBALL STAR WARS WAS GREAT!

Also Angry Birds Star Wars was before Disney, I heard something about only developing the mobile casual games or something. They can make them both you know.

Disney have done so much good in the past few years that I can't not have faith in them.

Posted by: Darkness Eternal May 24 2014, 11:39 PM

Time will tell, Imp. Time will tell.

I'm still wanting my gritty, dark and rated M Star Wars game with interesting characters. The tv show Star Wars: Rebels kind of hints what they want Star Wars to be.

Posted by: McBadgere May 26 2014, 06:49 AM

To be honest, I think that Disney are the only Empire (see what I did there?... ) that are strong enough to wrestle Star Wars back to what it was and possibly should always have been...

We're watching the films...And yes, there's the undertones that could be fleshed out...Yoda and Obi-Wan vs The Emperor and Vader etc...All that, yes, I agree...

But taking the films at face value, it's still good vs evil...And adventure sci-fi at its finest...

It should never have been about M rated games and dark novels and all the rest of it...That's just the kids that watched it years ago now being grown up and wanting to inject reality into it...

Why?...It's still escapism...

This is still just my opinion...One which will no doubt be laughed at for being naive...I don't care...

I think Lucas giving it to Disney is the best thing that could have happened to the Star Wars franchise...Not only does it give other storytellers that aren't George Lucas the chance to give their vision to the place, but it ensures that we can all get that sense of wonder back without having to read through obscure lore that really doesn't interest more than a few kids...And by that I mean kids won't be interested in the lore...Not the other thing...

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 26 2014, 10:39 AM

A few points:

Disney won't be able to change a thing where Star Wars is concerned. Disney owns Lucasfilm, but Lucas still owns Star Wars. And Lucas is now the second biggest shareholder in Disney, he's still going to be calling the shots. I'd call Lucas a bigger threat to Star Wars than anyone or anything else.

As for the EU, Lucas ignored it with the prequels, and the result was tragic. We got Jar-Jar Binks and flying R2-D2,who at some point lost both his memory of the prequel events and the ability to fly. And Obi Wan lost his memory of R2-D2, who was more Anakin's friend than droid, and 3P0, a droid Anakin built, right there on Tatooine. We got plotlines that were painfully obvious. We got villains lacking depth, who were just evil for the sake of being evil. And we're left with the baffling question of: If the Republic itself didn't have an army, then why was the Trade Federation allowed to build battle droids?

The problem with these films is that they're kids films. Star Wars could be watched by kids, but it could still take itself seriously(with the possible exception of the Ewoks). But everything I mentioned above, the reliance on gimmick characters, the inability to keep continuity with the original films, and of course the cringeworthy attempt at romance between Padme and Anakin, stops them being great films like the original trilogy were.

Now I'll grant you that the EU has gone too far. Personally by the time the New Jedi Order series starts I figure that they're now just adding things to keep it going, rather than working off what the original films gave them. But up that point it added a depth that wasn't in the films. It turned the conflict between the Rebellion and the Empire into an actual war that extended beyond Luke Skywalker and the others. It turned the Sith vs Jedi aspect into an ancient feud that has flared up time and again, with the Republic being caught in the middle of it.

Up to a point, the EU made the Star Wars universe, far more than the films did.

Posted by: McBadgere May 26 2014, 11:08 AM

No...

From what I read at the time, George is creative advisor only. The vision of the SW universe is in other peoples' hands now...Sounds like more of a Stan Lee gig now...

And, while I don't really understand the whole Shareholder thing, I kind of assumed that as long as he continues to make money off the films - as he has been doing for how long now? - he has no actual power over them or Disney as an organisation...

But again, that's just my ignorance showing itself...



Damn George and making the films he set out to make...Damn him!...

The original Star Wars had its dodgy moments, as did Jedi...No less than the prequels did...My kids keep proving that...

They enjoyed Empire, but they still say they enjoy the prequels more...

My daughter loves Jar-Jar...People can't just keep saying he's a crap character, 'cause obviously he did his job for the kids...

Posted by: Darkness Eternal May 26 2014, 02:28 PM

George Lucas did a herp derp when he tried to get philosophical in the third movie by putting in "There are Heroes on Both Sides".

Revenge of the Sith was the best "kids" movie ever. All Star Wars movies should be like it.

Learn from it, Disney!

Posted by: Callidus Thorn May 26 2014, 02:38 PM

I hope this means we're not going to see him popping up in every Star Wars film Disney make

Though I sincerely doubt Lucas has no say in what's done with the Star Wars franchise from now on.



Technically the films he originally set out to make were 4 through 9, but the latter three were abandoned for financial reasons.

And the thing about the original trilogy is that while they were suitable for kids, they weren't childish(except for the Ewoks). Take our recent discussion; where you said the original trilogy was black and white, and I pointed out that the Jedi don't really fit into that. That's not in there for kids, that's not something thrown in to stop them being dismissed as kids films, that's a theme worked into the plot from the first film onwards.



When a crucial part of the plot, Palpatine seizing power, comes down to the stupidity of a character added solely for kids, one that no one with a brainstem would place in a position of authority, it compromises the integrity of the narrative. Palpatine gained power over the Senate by manipulating Jar-Jar, a character everyone knows to be the single most stupid entity in the Star Wars universe. Hel, we get that hammered in from his first appearance in the TPM. It's pretty much the equivalent of an Ewok commanding the Rebel Fleet at Endor. You don't know what he's doing there, why he's been given that authority, and yet somehow he still has it, because the Ewoks are there for the kids. But it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

The prequel trilogy would have been better recieved if they'd actually made a real effort to tie them into the original films, and if they'd actually taken the films seriously. Continuity errors, one-dimensional characters, most notably villains, the fight to arrest Sidious looks like they didn't get to finish practising it, the over-reliance on R2-D2. If they'd been better written and better made, there'd be a lot less criticism.

Posted by: mirocu Jun 20 2014, 02:34 PM

I would like to see Star Wars again at some point. Maybe come fall....?


I just love how it all starts up with Vader boarding the rebellion ship and not some other way at all whatsoever

Posted by: ImperialSnob Jun 20 2014, 11:47 PM

The director of Looper will direct the last 2 Star Wars movies.

I've not seen Looper but I heard good things.

Posted by: Darkness Eternal Jul 21 2014, 02:00 AM

A dream come true! Temuera Morrison is returning as Boba Fett(technically he played Jango). I was afraid that the new Boba spinoff would feature some random white guy as Boba but Temuera is the guy. He'll, he's a clone in the movies. Glad he's coming back.

Posted by: McBadgere Sep 12 2014, 06:38 PM

*Is absolutely so much looking forward to this new Star Wars that he could float on air at every new photo that gets leaked... ...*...

Posted by: Callidus Thorn Oct 8 2014, 09:09 AM

Y'see, this is a perfect example of why I don't care about Star Wars anymore: http://www.gamespot.com/articles/lucasfilm-confirms-all-future-star-wars-content-to-be-canon-including-the-games/1100-6419225/

****ing Lucas...

Posted by: Colonel Mustard Oct 8 2014, 10:31 AM

I thought they'd announced that they'd dropped the EU stuff ages ago.

To be completely honest, it's a decision I pretty much agree with (except the dropping of the Clone Wars, and that's mainly due to its sheer popularity). The Extended Universe was nice and all, but it's audience was a tiny fraction of Star Wars' main crowd, an overwhelming majority who have only seen the movies. I can see why Disney wouldn't want future directors to be tied down by what's essentially glorified fanfic when an overwhelming majority of the audience won't care or even know about it.

Posted by: Callidus Thorn Oct 8 2014, 02:00 PM

And in the time between Lucas making the films and then spawning the abominations, the EU was the Star Wars universe. All of it approved by Lucasarts, some of it even commisioned by them.

To simply discard all of it, and effectively say "By the way, we've been selling you bullshit all these years, thanks for buying and we hope you like the new films" is simply inexcusable.

Considering how much there is in the EU compared to the films, and the length of time between the films and the abominations, saying that the EU was only for a fraction of the Star Wars crowd is ridiculous. Without the EU Star Wars would have been dead long before Lucas even though of doing a sequel.

Posted by: mirocu Oct 8 2014, 04:00 PM

I´ve said it before and I say it again; the only Star Wars that is canon for me are the three original movies.


*gets post notorized*





....

Posted by: SubRosa Oct 8 2014, 05:13 PM

I really don't care what is 'cannon' or not. A good story is a good story, whether it is written by someone paid by the company that own the copyright, or by someone on the internet doing fan fiction entirely on their own.

I read a lot of the early Star Wars books, like Tales Of the Mos Eisley Cantina, and the other Tales Of books, and I loved them. They are no less well-written or entertaining if whoever happens to currently own the rights to the Star Wars universe refuses to acknowledge them. I love a lot of the fan fic I read here, and none of it is Bethesda canon!

Posted by: Destri Melarg Oct 8 2014, 05:33 PM

This. Grand Admiral Thrawn is one of my favorite characters in the Star Wars universe. I'm not going to stop liking him just because Disney tells me he's not canon. They can have their canon, and I'll continue to have mine.

Posted by: Rohirrim Oct 8 2014, 10:38 PM

But Rebels looks good...

Posted by: SubRosa Oct 8 2014, 11:47 PM

I loved that first Timothy Zahn trilogy. It was really exciting back when it first came out, because those were the first books to be written since the Alan Dean Foster one - Splinter Of The Mind's Eye, and the Han Solo books by Brian Daley that were written back in the late 70s. It breathed new life back into the idea of Star Wars, and opened up the whole Star Wars universe.

Posted by: Destri Melarg Oct 11 2014, 09:11 AM

I know what you mean. That Zahn trilogy remains the only Star Wars books I have ever read. I don't really know why, considering how much I liked them.

I wonder if Disney is going to resurrect the KOTOR franchise finally. If they do that, I'll be willing to overlook the whole canon debate.

Posted by: Darkness Eternal Nov 28 2014, 05:01 PM

At first I was mad at all the fake fanmade videos on Star Wars: The Force Awakens.

Until I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMOVFvcNfvE



Did you see that Dark-Sider! SQUEALS! That red lightsaber looks terrible though.

Posted by: Callidus Thorn Nov 28 2014, 09:31 PM

I got as far as that lightsaber and bailed.

That's exactly the sort of thing I was worried they do...

Posted by: Rohirrim Nov 29 2014, 04:57 AM

I am Darth Fuckyouuppicus....

Posted by: Colonel Mustard Nov 30 2014, 11:45 AM

Ah yes, the longsword lightsabre. It does indeed ruin everything and irredeemably destroy the entirety of Episode VII because as we all know everything in Star Wars has, up until now, been super duper serious and ultra-realistic and there has never been anything silly in any of the films. Ever. Not at all.

Posted by: Uleni Athram Nov 30 2014, 03:51 PM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLACBB157C8DE5B884&v=g0ffCICQ-bU&params=OAFIAVgM

How Vader truly rose.

And that lightsabre thingamajig. I'm kinda in a neutral "Meh" mood right now.

Posted by: Callidus Thorn Nov 30 2014, 06:25 PM

A crossguard like that on a lightsaber is more of a danger to the wielder than anything else. When you're dealing with a weapon that could cut a person in two with a mere flick of the wrist, something that restricts how you can wield the weapon is solely a negative thing. When someone who can only be a villain isn't even taken seriously, why should I take the trailer seriously?

And when the last set of films are a continuity nightmare in comparison to the originals, why should I expect this next one to be any better? Also: Jar Jar Abrams. Considering what the Star Trek films were like, I really doubt it's too early to write these off.

Posted by: Colonel Mustard Nov 30 2014, 06:48 PM

Considering it's a new director, new cast, new writers and they're all wary of the massive backlash against the prequels, I think it's only fair to give the film a chance before complaining about it. After all, it's hard for Abrams to do worse things to the trilogy than what Lucas has already done.

I mean, I get that this is the internet, this is a sci-fi film and I know a huge part of geek culture consists of incessantly and arbitrarily complaining about minor things ad nauseum, but the amount of whining that's been going on about the lightsabre is ridiculous. It's not out for another year and some people are already acting like Abrams has personally punched their mother just based on that one brief clip. The amount of doomsaying, beating of breasts and gnashing of teeth people have already done about this film has been absolutely absurd.

Posted by: Callidus Thorn Nov 30 2014, 07:12 PM

To be fair, the lightsaber is pretty much the single most recognisable element from Star Wars (though personally I'm kinda pissed about the change of the X-Wing too). Changing something like that, especially when it's done just for the sake of it, and then throwing it in the trailer, alongside the X-Wing redesign, makes it look more like this film's about those involved stamping their names on the franchise. Changing anything iconic to a franchise needs to be done for a damn good reason, and frankly, there really doesn't seem to be one.

Consider how much the Star Wars films spawned, all the books and games. How many games can we play as a Jedi/Sith, or fly an X-Wing in? Hel, the X-wing got not only it's own series of games, but a series of novels too. I'll grant you the X-Wing redesign is a personal peeve of mine, but when changing anything like that, backlash is inevitable, and pretty much states that this isn't going to be a film for fans of the orignial Star Wars films, the ones that started everything off.

Frankly, they must have expected something like this from the trailer, because it really isn't surprising.

Posted by: mirocu Jan 28 2015, 10:48 AM

I love Collegehumour´s spoofs of Star Wars but I don´t like how the made the troopers look like they have Borg equipment attached to their eye..

Posted by: Uleni Athram Jul 23 2015, 11:04 AM

Anybody else here excited for Battlefront 3? The gameplay is totes beautiful, the graphics too of course, but what gets my blood pumping are the heroes and the vehicles! Can't wait to see how they'd implement lightsaber combat in a TPS/FPS shooter, and piloting a TIE Fighter through a treacherous canyon as several shots do damage against your rear deflectors... Yeah, I'm totally going to buy this alongside Fallout 4!

Posted by: Callidus Thorn Jul 23 2015, 11:38 AM

Have they changed their minds with that game, or is it still going to lack a single player campaign and galactic conquest?

Posted by: mirocu Jul 23 2015, 11:43 AM

Nope

Posted by: Uleni Athram Jul 23 2015, 12:17 PM

No news yet on that front, since EA seems to want it to be Battlefield in Space with Bot Mode but since Battlefront 1 and 2 was my introduction to the Star Wars franchise (yeah, I know right?) I'm willing to bend over and take it like a trooper out of a sense of loyalty.

Yeah, I know right?

@Mirocu: Your use of Dun Moch is commendable, but I will not be swayed by your dark words. Have at thee, Raven! *thrusts copies of Battlefront 1,2,3 at him using the Force*

Posted by: Callidus Thorn Jul 23 2015, 02:52 PM

No single player's a guaranteed no sale for me. Never been much for online gaming, so the single player's what I but games for.

And I've long since stopped taking anything from EA.

Posted by: Destri Melarg Jul 23 2015, 04:19 PM

The latest info I could find is http://wegotthiscovered.com/gaming/flurry-of-gameplay-info-leaked-ahead-of-star-wars-battlefront-alpha/ which hints at single player, but only in so-called 'Missions Mode.' That means a big fat pass for me… precisely for the reasons that Callidus already expressed. Too bad, because the game does look http://static2.gamespot.com/uploads/original/536/5360430/2848821-star+wars+battlefront+_4-17_b.jpg