I love grave-diggers that bring up good topics. I'd like to reform my argument since I'm not a medical expert and most of what I blabbered was compassion I read, and as I learned from trying to find a good way to flush your system (I have a drug test on Monday) you can't trust anything you read.

So I have only one real argument in favor of its legalization. We live in a liberal country, not liberal as in what conservatives call anyone who disagrees with them, but liberal as in the founding fathers based most of this nation on John Locke's principles. He stole his principles from the native americans, but that's another story.

But anyway, under the orginal intent of the constitution, and under the founding philosophy of this nation, marijuana must remain legal. Technically, since the constitution (including the bill of rights) supercede all laws post-dating it, marijuan still is legal because it's unconstitutional to make it illegal, so after the porhibition when congress decided to try and ban something else since alcohol backfired, they were all actually breaking the law.

If you want marijuana to be illegal, perhaps you would be happier living in a fascist nation. That's all I have to say on the matter.

Woah, sorry about that admins, my internet was being a real dilwad so I kept hitting refresh and... it reposted it for each one


Excess posts removed! (minque)

This was a pretty strange poll. Do you think drugs should be legal? Do you? Marijuana is way more dangerous than smoking. It does alot of damage. It should be illegal everywhere. I don't care what people say. Drugs are bad.

[rant]
I live in the Netherlands, and I'm sick and tired of tourists coming all this way to our insignificant corner of the world only because 'we have legalized drugs'. Which basically means that we only get the sort of tourism that we really don't need. It's the only sort of tourism, in fact, because there's nothing else of 'interest' here.

Also, when on the rare occassion that I visit our capital city, I hate it that I smell marihuana on every corner of the street. It stinks. Literally. It's one of the main reasons that I hate Amsterdam.

So, I think it's clear that I'm against legalization. I feel terrible when I'm visiting other countries, and people ask me where I come from. "Oh? You're from Holland? What with the drugs and all?" and then they look at me like I'm some sort of criminal, while personally I never touched anything remotely drug-like accept limited amounts of alcohol every now and then.
[/rant]

For one thing, drugs don't have any good points once you get hooked. They do nothing but ruin people. Frankly I don't like the liberal-conservative arguing on whether doing or not doing things are totally const. or unconstional. Somethings should be looked at with an unbiased case-by-case basis.

George Washington was against America being split into political parties in the first place, but it happened anyway. I disagree with a lot of the limitations placed on the legal situation (double jeopardy), but the point is, I do not believe marijuana should be legal for the overall degradory effect it has on society.

PS: I know how that side of things feel, sometimes I feel like I'm the only person my age in my school who has a set attitude of decency while everyone else is either egotistic, profane, or whatever. Before I rant further, I'll stop here.

As for drinking, I personally I'm never going to drink when I become of legal age. Why whould I be scrambling over myself to taste this thing that other kids my age who've taken a sip say tastes disgusting anyway? I'll stick with the stuff I don't have to aquire a taste for or possibly abuse (sodas).
The problem with alcaholism is that we've seen that Temprance (sp.) doesn't work and never accomplishes it's goal. It's too entrenched in society to simply be removed overnight. As for the drugs that simply make its way to dealers in the U.S., it causes violence and greed in the countries it's grown in before it even gets to the addicts.

From the whole angle alcahol can be made without forcing people to work like slaves, hiring private armies to protect facilities where it's made, etc. In that regard while alcahol is more widespread, it ends up killing a smaller percentage of the people involved (not just the people addicted).

This post has been edited by Lord Revan: Apr 11 2008, 01:41 PM

I think you might be mistaken. I'm no expert of course, but I do believe smoking is quite a bit more damaging to the body then marijuana. I'm also pretty sure it's more addicting. Now of curse that all depends on how often you use the stuff, I mean smoking weed daily will likely get you addicted to it very fast.



Being from the Netherlands myself, I recognize the stigma. I was in Orlando recently and one of the first comments I got after telling someone from the hotel I was staying in, that I was from the Netherlands was a comment on drugs. At the same time though, I wonder if it's something that we're to blame for, or that others are to blame for? What I mean is, just because we're the only country that has legalized weed, or one of very few countries who have, does that mean we automatically qualify as a drug country? Does that mean the most interesting and memorable thing about our country is drugs? Or does it mean it simply sticks with people, perhaps even because people don't look beyond something like that?

If I were to venture an educated guess, I'd guess the latter.

I believe I've mentioned this somewhere earlier in this thread, I'm very liberal minded in quite a few things, I'm in favor of legalization on soft drugs (weed, hash), I'm in favor of Euthanasia, gay marriage, equal rights to everyone no matter the race, color, sex or sexual preference etc. I've felt that way for quite a while and still do.


Without even going into the arguments supporting legalized soft drugs, could someone explain to me why that in so many countries is not allowed, and frowned upon, while alcohol and tobacco are so commonly accepted into our culture? I really don't understand that. Looking at things like alcohol induced deaths, damages done to the body because of smoking or drinking and so much more, I really don't understand the crusade against soft drugs. (Hard drugs is an entirely different matter of course.)

I'd just like to make one little point of this;

It's only the industrialized, chemical sprayed, nictonie and hundreds of other toxin induced, tobacco that's bad for your health. Namely the way cigarette's are made. My grandfather smoked a tobacco pipe using tobacco he grew in his own back yard with no ill effect.

Just though I'd point it out that it's not tobbaco that's bad for you.

Tobbacco is bad for you, nicotine is a strong carcinogen and it has varius other unpleasant compounds in it as well as being quite addictive. Smoking is also bad for you because smoke is full of all sorts of nasty things (due to partial combustion) so smoking weed or tobacco are both bad for you. The main difference is that weed isn't addicive.

I would be for legalisation but not from the point of view of taking more, its easy enough to get anyway and legal or not I only have the occasional cake. Making it more availible would cut excessive drinking (which is very common here) and reduce the problems it causes.

There's also the matter that if someone wants to do something which doesn't hurt anyone else its their own business. Soft drugs don't hurt anyone. In fact I'd argue weed is less harmful to others than alcohol (compare bar brawls to sitting looking confused in a corner).

As said very addictive or damaging drugs are a different matter.

This post has been edited by Olen: Apr 11 2008, 05:32 PM

When I think of Holland, I think of Cassis and small towns or villages with houses that have signs up reading "te verhuur", and ads that say "Bellen & Surfen" which to me as a German sounds very funny.

Marijuana is not the killer it is made out in Reefer Madness. But it is also not harmless. No drug is harmless. What is necessary is a differentiated look at these things instead of emotional black- or whitewashing.

Marijuana differs from other drugs in a number of ways. When you use something like heroin, the effects will be quite obvious in a rather short time. You'll feel the physical need for more, you get the shakes and you feel horrible - you're addicted and you suffer from withdrawel, and your entire life focuses on getting more, no matter by what means. You'll degrade yourself without hesitation for just one more fix, hell, you might even turn violent.

Marijuana isn't like that. For one it's not as harmful, there's no physical addiction and it doesn't destroy your body like hard drugs. But don't kid yourself, it does change you. It does affect you. Maybe not if you just smoke a joint every now and then, but if you're a regular customer, your life will change in ways you don't even notice.

Trouble with abusing any drug, no matter which, is that quite often you end up using it to push aside what you perceive as problems in your life. You don't see it that way, you might think you're just doing it to relax, but in the life of most people there comes a time when they realize what has been going on in their life, and then, from one day to the next they'll just stop because they realize they've been wasting a lot of their life and they haven't done what they should've done because instead of solving their problems they ignored them. But if you just ignore your problems, whatever they be, they won't go away, they'll just accumulate.

Now you might say if you know that you can make an informed decision and take the risk. But this effect comes so slow and is so subtle you forget all about it. It doesn't destroy your life or anything like that, but it's bad.


I'm still pro legalization because it doesn't make sense to me that people are allowed to buy alcohol but not weed, and you can get it easily enough anyway. However I'd also be for strict age control, because in the hands of adolescents, weed does real and serious danger.

Once again on the subject of alcahol, the Temprance measures (the U.S.) attempted never worked because people would pay more money for it and make some at home (which lead in many cases to alcahol poisoning).

As far as America goes, alcahol is too deep to be taken away by a simple ban. Both good-quality alcaholic beverages and cigarettes are were (and in some ways still are) symbols of prestige.

I personally wouldn't care if alcahol or cigarettes were banned, no skin off my bone, but it's probably not ever going to happen.

PS: How about this? People shouldn't use drugs recreationally, but good luck stopping them.

And, once again on the subject of Americans and drugs, the drug running in South America probably leads to more damage to everyone involved (the involuntary workers, governments, private armies, AND the addicts) than fatalities due to getting drunk.

This post has been edited by Lord Revan: Apr 12 2008, 03:03 PM

1. that's almost exclusively hard drugs, which this thread isn't about.
2. you're wrong. Alcohol causes many many deaths every year, mostly due to massive organ damage caused by long term alcohol abuse.

I am not in favor of legalization of marijuana and in fact, due to the fact that I now spend my work days selling cigarettes at 7/11 to people with young children and even pregnant woman - I'd like to see people with young children legally only be allowed to buy chewing tobacco (thereby poisoning only themselves but not their innocent offspring) and for it to be totally illegal to sell alcohol or tobacco to a pregnant woman (thereby not contributing to harming the unborn child.) My thoghts, though I have to make regretful sales to these people.

I think that if smoking tobacco is legal, cannabis should also be legal. From what I've seen, (I have friends who occasionally use, though I've never gotten high myself) the drug itself is no worse than tobacco. So rather than keep it illegal, which only encourages the various ills an illicit economy can foster, I say that it should be legal and regulated much in the same way that cigarettes and booze are.

Edit: My idea of regulation includes bans on smoking in public buildings, restaurants, that sort of thing. Second-hand smoke is a terrible thing... cigarette smoke quite literally disgusts me.

This post has been edited by canis216: Apr 13 2008, 03:10 AM

Personally, I think that mirijuana should be legal. Its not exactly a "safe" drug as some may say, in fact it may be worse for you in some aspects. The difference being that the average cannabis user smokes much less than the average cigarette smoker does so the effects are not so frequently noticed. It has also been linked by some studies to psychiactric problems as well.


And also,


That being quoted, I still feel that it should be legalized because I believe that you should have freedom of choice. The dangerous effects of it aren't quite so dramatic as long-term alcohol abuse or cigarette use in most cases but it is still quite dangerous if used too often. It has also been grouped close to caffeine in terms of addiction. I personally don't see much point in prohibiting its use since most people that want to try it don't have to try hard.

This post has been edited by Kiln: Apr 13 2008, 03:38 AM

You've got a point.

By the way, I'm liberal minded too when it comes to euthanasia. Abortion, even. Not because I think it's a good thing that everyone can run around mindlessly having sex with everyone else without wondering about the consequences, but merely because it's tragic that some women become pregnant after being raped. And also because accidents happen, and those accidents may in some cases destroy relationships and lives. Is that ethical? Yes, it is in the way I view it, but I'll stop before we have a discussion about this completely off-topic idea.

Still, I'm against legalization. It's more of a feeling than an actual well-founded opinion though. I generally don't like the type of people who use drugs, specially not the sort of people who think it's 'cool'. I just can't stand them. I'm fine with people frowning on us because we legalized gay marriage, but I do not wish to be frowned upon because some of our softdrugs are legal. Drugs are completely unneccesary, in my opinion, and if we had to vote to abolish them altogether, I would vote in favour. Although, some drugs, like marihuana, can also be used for medical treatment. That, of course, I'm not against.

Since people are bringing up political allignment, I'm pretty conservative (as some might notice). I wouldn't resort to demonizing drugs to eradicate recreational use altogether, as I wouldn't for gay marriage, or abortion, but I am resolute in not allowing such things to become the "norm" where I live.

I actually can accept the reasoning behind euthanasia, but that's about it. Like Ethelle, if a drug has real medicinal value it should be used as such, not as something to get high on.
There's too much money in alcahol and tobacco to get rid of it, but as I have said before, I have no reason for sorrow if someone actually accomplishes putting any of the above topics to an end. That is all I have to say.

No neutral option?

I don't care either way.

Concerning that, I think as with numerous other things, marijuana will strengthen behavioral patterns already in someone, perhaps dormant, or perhaps simply suppressed. So I think even the people doing the research would vouch it's not the best argument against Marijuana.






Fortunately, in many cases we can let our feelings guide us Personally, I've never been very fond of alcohol, smoking and such things, for any number of reason and greatly on a matter of principal. But while I might discuss it with others, I've always believed to each their own.

As to users, that's a complicated issue.

I've been around blowers for the majority of my life, older and younger cousins doing it, friends doing it, and I've seen some very different cases.
One friend who's been doing it for as long as I know him, with absolutely no addiction or bad things coming from it. As far as I know that is as he doesn't really live next door
One family member who started it just to try it, and to whom it fast became a habit and beyond that even into a minor (if there is such a thing) addiction. Fortunately, after quite a bit of work he's been able to stop doing it.
One very good friend living nearby who's been on and off of the stuff for years now, for whom it's been completely innocent at times, and an addiction at other times. Adding to that the fact that he's struggling with pains and such, it will be a struggle if he'd ever want to completely stop doing it.
Another family member who used to do it somewhat frequently, then stopped overnight and hasn't touched it since.

And quite a few other cases I could mention, suffice to say though, all of those might have started as an experiment, but the reason they continued it always went beyond "trying to be cool" or something like that

As with so many other things, I think the important factor in whether or not things go bad, lies completely with the user. So I guess the point I'm trying to make is perhaps those people who say they use it to be cool, aren't being entirely sincere, and should you find their true reasons, it might be a surprise

Again, hard drugs and the likes I consider a totally different matter.

Well, I also read something today, if you're a human being on this plane of existence, you're 100% likely to die. Women over a certain age have an equal to completely same chance of knocking of this mortal coil, as a Bonobo in a Cayman Island Wildlife reserve.

Thats not all, it turns out living it up, may actually increase chances of magnitude of doom! The researchers stated that they would need more money before they could continue their research which was moved from Ashland, Oregon. USA to the Shores of Santa Monica beach.

No. I'm really sure about that marijuana is more dangerous. I really am. Believe me. It's proven, although I can't find it on the internet.