And neither will most US citizens, myself included.

I realize that the US isn't popular right now with the rest of the world because of this war, but for the most part, we've recognized our mistake and are now trying to correct it as best we can. (in "we" I exclude Mr. Dubya) Look at it from our side too; if we just altogether pull out, we're just leaving the Iraqi people to the wolves and if we stay, we lose more of our own. It's a lose-lose situation, and unfortunately we can't turn back the clock to get out of it. At this point, no matter what we do, the situation will have a bad outcome. We just have to decide which is the lesser of two evils.

This probably isn't the place for this but removing Saddam Hussein from power was the most retarded things this country has done since electing Dubya. He was making Iraq prosperous. He did a shitload of good for the economy. He actually understood how to run the country.

I mean, out of leaders in the world right now, he was definitely one of the better ones. The fact is, very few leaders accept rebellion or dissent, especially in the middle east. We used a couple of exmples of his darker behavior to justify ending the tyranny in Iraq. That's utterly stupid, democracy isn't as simple as killing the old leader and spending trillions of dollars to do what he was doing for free.

I'm sorry but making life better is not as simple as killing the bad guys. Of course, don't think for a second Bush believed that, either. He's a greedy little dreamy school girl, and his friends are raking in billions from this operation while they watch the country they call home crumble. All the money is getting leeched from our economy and put into just a handful of pockets. How did Halliburton become one of the richest companies in the planet just through their deal in Iraq? It soared from Iraq, absolutely soared. You can say it's just benefits to their friends like how when a cop impounds a car one of his buddies will end up with it here in Argentina (the example being that the car needed to be impounded anyway) but Halliburton is just the tip of the iceburg. There have been so many beneficiaries to this war, not one of them being the average american or the economy of the US.

And who are these wolves the Iraqi people would be left to if we pulled out? Right now the terrorists are attacking us, not sunnis or shiates. A civil war is possible but I think it's being exaggerated, Saddam Hussein had his army dissolve into the population so we're not fighting sunni or shiate extremists, we're fighting secular Hussein loyalists. If we left, who do they have left to fight?

Note: I'm going to use the typical media term 'insurgents' for your 'secular Hussein loyalists'

These insurgents attack the Coalition forces, yes. But they also target people associated with us, which also includes Iraqi forces and politicians that have cooperated with the Coalition, and probably their families as well. Judging by tactics they've used in the past (car bombings, suicide bombings, assassinations, beheadings and the like) they won't go easy on these people and the US forces are really the only thing keeping them somewhat at bay. Not to mention that they don't seem to care how many civilians they kill while targeting either the Coalition forces or the Iraqi ones.

I agree that starting the war was a bad idea, but you can't live in the past. You have to make the best of it and move on. It's just easier said than done in this situation.

This post has been edited by Dantrag: Jul 23 2008, 09:05 PM

I'm too tired and sleepy to reply to that "Hussein was good for Iraq" stuff, even though I think it needs to be addressed because it's just plain wrong.

However, let me say a few words on the US' responsibility in Iraq. You got there, you messed it up, now you better stay and clean it up. What will happen if you pull out now? Well, that's pretty easy. Civil war. And no, it's not exagerated. There are a number of factions - the biggest being the Kurds in the north, the Sunni in the west and the Shia in the south. These factions have very little love for each others. The Kurds want to be left alone, and why not? They're sitting on a lot of the oil. The Shia are pissed off because they've been oppressed for so long and now they want to have the power and do whatever they please. The Sunni want back what they used to have under Hussein.

Now, that's bad enough. But it gets worse. In addition to these three basic factions, we have all the neighbouring countries. These countries are infamous for meddling in the affairs of their respective neighbours, and Iraq is a high-stakes neighbourhood: Gazillions in oil wealth, that's a damn big incentive to get involved. There's a lot of wealth to be made there. And: everyone of the neighbours has enemies and friends among the three factions. Example: Turkey wants to make sure the Kurds don't get too much power because they're afraid this might provide shelter to the PKK. Iran doesn't want that either, and would rather see the Shia gain power. Syria is more interested in helping the Sunni. God only knows who or what all the other countries in the region hope for or support.

Now the Iraqi army is supplied by the US with new or old weapons. The Sunni militias are pleding their allegience to the US and get weapons, too. The Kurds have their own sources I guess. Everyone is trying to get their hands on more and more weapons, just... you know... in case.

And if THAT isn't bad enough you still got people that think it's fun to blow up everybody who isn't clearly behind their ideals, ie that shadowy entity called Al Queda or you know, whatever.

But wait, it gets worse! Even the factions fight among themselves. The Shia are especially good at this: there's Muqtada al-Sadr on one and the government Shia people on the other side, for instance. Recipe for disaster, that alone.


Believe you me: pull out and this thing will explode. Why? There are factions with very different ideas of how to rule that country and who should be doing this, and as of right now, there is no established infrastructure of power. The Iraqi army is a joke and the Iraqi police is a joke, too. There are many militias on all sides, and if the US pulls out now... BOOOM.

I know Channie! I know your opinion and I respect it! But you can never convince me of the good thing about learning to be a soldier and thus kill people! I'm swedish, we haven't had a war since the 1800s. Our so called "military" is a joke! They are putting it down anyway, one after another of the units are dismissed and there's not much left of it. My dad fought in WW2, he despised war (he's dead now)....



Yeah Stargie...that sums it up for me as well!

So when the EU takes over the nations completely, there will be no form of resistance? Hundreds of years of unique nations will be absorbed into one entity, with one constitution, that may or may not have things like civil rights?

Hmmm, EU is already there, and we still are separate countries, with civil rights! And good social services and so on

Nope I'm not afraid of EU, I voted for a swedish membership, and I voted for the EURO, but unfortunately we still are stuck with our Krona here....Silly swedes!

Okay, fact, Iraq was not the best tactical choice on our part. Fact, the more man power invested in Iraq, the less manpower that can be allocated to terror attacks abroad.

I personally think there's been dumber economic moves than continuing to fight in Iraq. What I hate about the anti-war protesters is they generally talk down to anyone who disagrees with them as though our opinion amounts to nothing compared to theirs (these guys aren't here, here it's not so bad).

Pulling out is by no means a result, it makes everything up until now totally meaningless. The killing will go on, the terrorists won't have to focus on fighting and they'll be able to consolidate their power and resources.
It won't change anything, except the situation will be worse than before all this crap started.

PS: Um, Starge there's places in the army where pacifism isn't a liability. MPs, corpsmen, there's guys in 'Nam who didn't take a rifle and just dragged the wounded out of combat.

The only reason anyone lives a civilized life is because other people do the dirty work for them. [literally and metaphorically]

This post has been edited by Lord Revan: Jul 24 2008, 03:59 AM

Wow, I didn't realize my imminent homelessness sparked such a debate. Fact is, I talked to the recruiter today, and it looks promising. Of course, I will still have a lawyer look over the contract. But if it goes according to plan, than I can do reserves for two, three years as a pencil pusher, and maybe come see y'all in Europe for a couple of weeks. Geez, how far is sweden from germany? **Goes to googlemaps**

Hey, Germany ain't far away from Germany!

You are the largest exporter of arms in the world per capita though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry..._Arms_Exporters

As for Iraq the cynic in me says that was a success. We went for oil. We got oil. What do the rich businessmen behind the move (and they were - there were the lagest demonstrations about it here since the poll tax) care? There weren't any terrorists before we went in (Al Queda and Hussain hated each other to the extent that Al Queda requested to fight on our side in the first gulf war (and don't forget who gave them their power and weapons with operation cyclone)). Now we've been bombing them for a while I should imagine there are pleanty. Likewise Afganistan.

Unfortunatly trying to get a democracy in a society formed of rival factions who hate eachother doesn't work - the largest one ends up in power and does nasty things to the smaller ones. If you put barriers in place to stop that they have to be enforced and it will end in politcal deadlock. Northern Ireland was somewhat like that and it took decades to sort out.

Ha, just get your a** over to europe and I'll come see ya! I'm very often in germany as well, my second homeland! And yeah...funny how quite innocent posts can trigger a debate!


Hehehe....I know!



I know....but then again we are just about 9 million ppl here so....

I'm going to have to be careful not to mention "army" to Minque, she's the one who blew this all out of proportion, silly swede. I'd rather not have this whole controvery again..... What to talk about now....... My Driver's Ed stuff is insane. All the non-multiple-choice answers are madly legal or other crap that not even an experienced driver's going to know off the top of their head.

Multiple choice wasn't so bad, you at least had some idea how they wanted you to answer the question. What does Texas' laws on littering have to do with beginning drivers? I'd rather answer those "train-leaves from [] at [] moving at [], another leaves from [] at [] moving at [], which gets to [] first?" questions.

Uhhhh no I just pointed out my opinion, The out of proportion thingy was not my doing!

It's my opinion that there's nothing wrong with argueing, as long as everybody stays civil and respects whatever opinion the others may hold.

Right, Minquette?

Why certainly! I don't mind a good discussion! And I still don't exactly like armies and war and things, but that doesn't mean I mind discussing it!

So shoot!

I'm glad the conversation has changed but despite that I still challenge you to look up how Saddam Hussein handled his economy, compared to most governments he was a very prosperous leader.

I don't care how prosperous you are, if you don't respect basic human rights I'm not going to consider you a good leader.

Ok, so he got his country's economy to prosper, but then he was the pretty much the guy who ruined it all over again. I'm not someone who hates people because I'm told to, but even if Hussein was alive, things wouldn't be much better. He most likely wouldn't have helped us a bit, we might have detained him instead of executing him, but his supporters still wouldn't like us, no matter how we got him out of the way.

EDIT: Looks he's dead, okay? Whether it was a mistake or not, its our responsibility to deal with the consequences.

This post has been edited by Lord Revan: Jul 26 2008, 11:22 PM

Perhaps dealing with the consequences by once in this nation's history, learning that they were indeed MISTAKES and should not be committed again.