Personally I wouldn't like the idea of people wandering around with guns full stop, let alone concealed. Not even the police carry them here and say what you like our homicide rate is quite low and gun crime is very unusual. Also from a rather more self-centred standpoint I know that in any mugging etc. the worst I'm likely to see is a knife, which I can outrun or in dire circumstances have some chance of disarming. Guns are rather more fatal.

I'd also question the use of pump-action shotguns, handguns, (semi)automatic weapons or any knid of exotic round except for killing people. I've no problem with guns for hunting or ranges but I don't see the point in using excessivly dangerous ones.

Saying that the law here does go a bit too far in essentially banning people from carrying knives...

Where do you live at where police don't carry firearms? That sounds crazy to me...then again anyone who wants to carry a firearm here in the states need only apply for a license and have a clean criminal/mental record. Armed police are necessary here.

I live in the United States and love the fact that I'm able to collect firearms and while the military purpose of firearms is killing, the civilian uses are generally much different...unless you're a psychopath. I and most Americans use their firearms in completely legal and legitimate ways every day. I collect them, use them to hunt, target practice, and of course keep some around for self defense purposes as well. I also plan on getting a concealed carry license before long.

As far as "excessively dangerous" firearms go, any firearm is deadly in the wrong hands. The only people I really worry about getting firearms are criminals. As far as I'm concerned having millions of armed citizens pretty much guarantees that you'll never be occupied by any other country so thats a bonus as well.

This post has been edited by Kiln: Jul 19 2009, 03:49 PM

The UK. We do have armed police, but the regular police do not carry guns. As for why, I think I'll let the late, great American comedian Bill Hicks answer that one. This was from his Relentless tour back in 1991. Would be interesting to see what the statistics for gun crime in both countries are now.

"Like, I was over in England. You ever been to England, anyone, been to England? No one has handguns in England, not even the cops. True or false? True. Now-in England last year, they had fourteen deaths from handguns. FFFFFourteen. Now-the United States, and I think you know how we feel about handguns-woooo, I'm getting a warm tingly feeling just saying the word, to be honest with you. I swear to you, I am hard. Twenty-three thousand deaths from handguns. Now let's go through those numbers again, because they're a little baffling at first glance. England, where no one has guns, fffffffourteen deaths. United States, and I think you know how we feel about guns-woooo, I'm getting a stiffy-twenty-three thousand deaths from handguns. But there's no connection, and you'd be a fool and a Communist to make one. There's no connection between having a gun and shooting someone with it, and not having a gun and not shooting someone. There have been studies made and there is no connection at all there. Yes. That's absolute proof."

As far as I know, besides possibly some special reponse type units or something, there's no armed police in Ireland. Definitely none of the ones you see out on the street and stuff are armed. No idea what the average number of gun/handgun caused/related deaths are per year, but I daresay it's not overly high.

take into account england's population versus the US...

This post has been edited by Dantrag: Jul 19 2009, 05:10 PM

lol, yeah of course

Still, gun crime per percentage population is still massively different.

It's a difference in culture though. We're not brought up around guns, so they seem alien and dangerous. Some of the guys in this thread have clearly used guns all their lives, so they seem normal and friendly.

I'm not saying guns are bad, it's the people who use/ misuse them that cause the problems. Just saying that easy access to guns will naturally mean that more people will die from gun related crime. People will always use what they have access to...

Figures which are about 4 years old say that England has around 1 death per million due to firearms the usa is well over 100.

I've never bought the self defense argument. If no one has guns then no one needs them to defend themselves. And it's a lot, lot harder to kill someone with a knife than a gun. I'd suggest that there is a link between this and the difference in murder rates between the countries (UK 2.03 per 100,000 va USA 5.8.

I agree that any firearm is deadly in the wrong hands, but some are tools for a nessesary job or equipment vital to a hobby, others serve no purpose but to kill people.

The fact is that people will never be completely disarmed (Especially in the U.S.) and if someone comes into my home that may endanger me I'd rather have a shotgun to aim at them than a phone to call the police. It can take police several minutes to respond to a call and less than a second for me to stop someone who is also armed with a well placed shot.

As for violence with firearms I must say that the blame should be placed solely on its owner, guns don't kill people by themselves. You should also note that out of all the firearm related deaths in the U.S. each year over half of these are suicides, who could've just as easily found thousands of other ways to get the same effect.

I think people will continue to kill eachother no matter what tools they have at their disposal. If 5000 people were killed each year with shovels is the solution to make shovels illegal? No because they'll just use something else.

My thoughts vary from yours greatly, I believe that self defense is a valid argument for the ownership of firearms. I'm sure its much different to you, being raised somewhere where ownership of firearms is illegal. In the United States though, where the entire population has access to them, I think home defense is a very valid use for a firearm.

I'm glad this matter can be discussed so maturely though, it really says something about the members of this forum.

OMG, you actually do have shotguns....yes yes I knew about weapons in US, but still you guys who I've been talking to so much, you actually have guns....

It's just me...because in Sweden young ppl do not have guns...unless they are educated hunters of course....or jus badasses....

Well it doesn't seem like such a big deal to some of us, its all relative to where you live and how you were raised. One thing to remember is that many Americans are armed and most of them are not criminals.

This post has been edited by Kiln: Jul 19 2009, 08:18 PM

Oh yes..I know, of course it's like that ..but still, for me it's awkward that young ppl like most of you are armed! It's so cold and hard and I feel bad about it

I've only been a gun nut for a little over a year. I'd rather attend my school's sporting clays tournament than play baseball (or any other sport for that matter). But you can fire a bunch of less-than-lethal or specialty rounds through a pump: flares, *TASERs, flexible batons, bean bag rounds, dragon's breath (like fireworks), and gas canisters.


But you can't stop people with the right connects (like organized crime) getting a hunting weapon or military surplus. Then there's the people that are so absolutely hell-bent on doing damage that even if they couldn't get a firearm, they'd wound or kill someone with some other tool (including their own two hands and legs).

The only people that the banhammer stops are the people that respect the law anyway. And I generally define criminals as people who break the law on purpose, so it's really a moot point. I'd like to have the option to shoot back than try to wrestle it out of their hands (which does happen).

I found more figures. In 2005 there were 10100 murders committed in the US using firearms. Thats 32 dead for every million. Of them 75% were committed with handguns. That is a key part of my argument - handguns have no use. If you want to hunt you use a rifle or shotgun, for sport shooting rifles are in the olympics, handguns are not. When it comes to an easily concealable and obtainable and simple to use device for killing people handguns come into their own. Knives, or shovels, while potentially weapons, indeed murders are committed with them, are tools. Their primary purpose is to cut or to dig, their danger is just incidental. The same goes for rifles or shotguns, they are tools when used for killing animals. Handguns' primary purpose is killing people.

This may be in self defence but if they are legal to own then criminals can easily get them, so immediatly everyone wants one to be on the same level. The nessessity of owning a handgun for defense is born of allowing handguns to be used for defense. If there is a blanket ban on handguns they cease to be a factor and become unnessesary.

As for the 'gun's don't kill people, people do' line... Well yes I agree, but giving people the tool with which to kill others doesn't help. Its easy for someone not in their right mind to go on a rampage with a gun. Remove the gun and they might cut some people with a knife but other weapons are easy to escape. There will always be people who will commit murder in a moment of rage, giving them weapons makes this easier for them. To a lesser extent this applies to other murder too.

On the other hand there is a balance to be struck. I would say, from the point of view of someone who doesn't like guns and lives in a country where there aren't many around, the USA is too fond of them. But the UK is too far the other way in making any armed selfdefence as much of a crime as an outright assault.

I'm interested - would you say America's murder rate being higher than the UKs is a cultural thing or due to the availibility of weapons? Or are the two intrinsically linked?

I honestly think its because of the way that Americans are desensitized to killing in general. The fact that people can get weapons doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it, I think its all about the mentality behind the person in question.

The American media teaches people that if someone does something wrong to you, kill them. They portray violent gang types and drug dealers as "cool" and rap music clearly promotes violence/crime as well. Thats not to say that movies and music are all to blame, like people who try to say video games cause shooting sprees. Some people just don't make the distinction between right and wrong. I've watched Schwarzenegger movies since I was a kid and I've never thought killing someone would solve any problems I've had with them...but people do it every day.

Thats why I stress the fact that without people no form of weapon whether it be knife or gun will ever commit a murder by itself. So I'd say that murder rates are probably higher here in the states because of cultural conditioning than the availability of firearms. I think that if firearms were outlawed, people would just find some other way of killing one another because they've been conditioned to do so. Think of it like this, if someone hands you a knife is your first thought to kill someone with it? Of course not, but someone somewhere given the same knife might later use it in murder. Its all relative to the mentality of the person.

Of course you know as well as I do that this is all just speculation on my part, nobody knows why people do the things they do and probably never will.

This post has been edited by Kiln: Jul 20 2009, 01:31 AM

I'm pointing out that there is no way to get handguns off the streets. In the same way the government is incapable of regulating illegal drug trafficing they will be unable to regulate illegal handguns. If I wanted to do my duty as citizen soldier, should I go carrying around an AR-15 in public or a Sig Sauer.

My reasoning is that you can't rely completely on your government for anything, that's why we were alloted the rights to act on our own behalf. It INCREASES the danger when responsible citizens are disarmed while the dangerous individuals (who might not care what the laws are in the first place) are free to turn somewhere into a shooting gallery.
The federal government banning firearms (regardless of type) is not the same as taking on omnipotent power and removing them from the equation. After all no government has more power than the people afford it.

Right, when weapons are taken from law abiding citizens only criminals will be left with them.

The funny thing is alot of "experts" say I should be absolutely ready to go out and kill some people since I've had a childhood full of violent videogames and other mediums of military-esque "indoctrination." I highly doubt that once I turn 21 and get my CHL I'll be some kind of ticking time bomb.

As for pistols not being used for hunting, there are several revolver-only hunting cartridges like the .454 Casull and .50 Action Express (what you'd use to take down and African Cape Buffalo). Most modern anti-personnel rounds are adaptations of previously existing hunting calibers (i.e. .308 Winchester -> 7.62x51mm NATO, .223 Remington -> 5.56mm NATO, .38 Special -> .357 Magnum). These "military" rounds are generally identical to the parent case except for pressure, thickness of the shell casing, and dimensions. They're also almost completely interchangable (a .357 Magnum revolver can fire .38 Special, but not vice-versa).

yea, people here hunt deer all the time with pistols.

I disagree. In the UK a blanket ban on handgun has been relitivly successful (I've never seen one or heard of anyone seeing one) and crime with firearms is very low, particulrly in Scotland (this may well be down to other factors). Whether this success relies on the culture and location is a different matter. Perhaps the culture is important though judging by the amount of smuggling which goes on being an island is no help, there just isn't much demand.

You also have to remember that this includes making it very hard to buy rounds and impossible to buy handgun rounds which forces their price up. So yes, if I really wanted and was willing to spend a lot I could probably get an illegal firearm but if anyone ever saw it or if I ever used it it would be national news and the police would make a major effort to catch me. It's just too difficult. But as I said acceptance would be less willing in the US.

Perhaps I'm looking at this from the wrong angle though. I think you may have hit the nail on the head with the attitude bit, if someone broke into your house or tryed to mug you would you seriously want them dead?

Personally I'd put them down but I'd want to do as little damage as I could to them in the process then call the police and leave it to them.

This post has been edited by Olen: Jul 20 2009, 09:24 AM

But Great Britain is just a large island, The US is landlocked with two other large countries, one of which has a questionable law enforcement situation, and has a much larger coastal area than the U.K. If the mexican drug cartels can acquire M-16A1s (fully automatic, not something the average person could waltz into a store and purchase) then I doubt banning firearms here (since Mexico already has a gun ban) will change things if it doesn't over there.

I don't think they'll just lineup to turn over their unregulated (ligitimate owners already face torturous incentives NOT to own an automatic weapon) weapons because the all-powerful government commands them to. It's not going to happen, and responsible gun owners wouldn't stand for it.