See . . . this is what happens when you are absent from the forums for awhile, you miss out on some lively debate! Again, I am not a Bethesda apologist (even though I think it seems like it re-reading my own comments), but please indulge me while I comment on a few things that struck me when reading this thread:


So what you are saying is that you are throwing a ‘Mourning Morrowind Tantrum?’ I would not be surprised to learn that the reason that Skyrim is set 200 years into the Fourth Era is because Bethesda is looking to remove the stain of the Infernal City from the hearts of fans. Bethesda has shown a history of squandering a number of opportunities for compelling stories in the Tamrielic timeline (The Alessian Reform, The War of the Red Diamond, and the Rise of the Camoran Usurper immediately come to mind). You yourself lament the repetition of tired motifs in Bethesda’s games, wouldn’t yet another game set in the too often mined Third Era just be another repetition? Besides, I am of the opinion that events moving forward can be just as compelling as what has gone before.

I may be wrong but I don’t believe that there is a very strong Imperial presence in Skyrim. A country at war with itself isn’t likely to recognize any outside authority. If what you meant is that the world is on the brink of collapse, well, of course it is. How can we be the hero otherwise?


This one I can’t argue at all since I agree with you. Let’s hope that the rumor that you open the game being led to your own execution finally puts paid to this tired and clichéd plot device.


I wasn’t commenting on your personal play style. The fact that you didn’t choose to powergame doesn’t mitigate the fact that it was possible to do just that. I was commenting on the homogeneity created through powergaming. In terms of ‘roleplaying’ as elegant as your solution is, it is not the only one. Even with attributes and skills you still start the games as something of a non-entity. Other than a negligible 5-10 point bonus/deficit in certain skills and attributes there is no real difference between a female Bosmer and a male Imperial. The individuality of your beginning character in Morrowind didn’t come from the game, it came from you. The initial skill/attribute spread could have been shared by any race/gender that you chose to use. It wasn’t the game that decided your character ‘considers herself a freelance mercenary,’ and that she has ‘no interest in stealth, diplomacy, or magic.’ You don’t need the game to tell you those initial considerations of character. In Skyrim the hope (I believe) is that those decisions will be made by what the player chooses to have the character do instead of what the player decides to tag.


Can't say it any better than this! The hope shared by those of us who are optimistic about the game is that they succeed.


I think this is what has me at least willing to give Skyrim the benefit of the doubt. In Fallout 3 we can see that the system of perks works in ways that a broken system of attributes doesn’t. If the reports are true and Skyrim is giving us ten times the number of perks provided by vanilla Fallout 3 then I remain optimistic.


Yeah, I’m with you here. This is a terrible idea! I hope that there are enough people who feel the same to make Bethesda rethink this.


I lament that the days of navigating the games strictly as a ‘diplomat’ are gone. I think the number of new fans drawn by the intellectual prospect of gore and severed limbs outweighs the loss of a few Neanderthals who wish to explore dialogue possibilities!


"No, your wrong and stoopid! My opinyun is the only won that matters!" – Official Skyrim Forum Banner.


Well, that’s not really a fair comparison, is it? Starting in prison is not a mistake or glitch in the game, it is a deliberate (albeit nauseating) plot point that has been repeated enough times to be reasonably considered a tradition. I agree with you in that I would like to see it removed, but in all fairness it has become something of a tradition.

All right, yes, I'm throwing a 'Mourning Morrowind Tantrum'. I'm not buying the 'making up for Infernal City' idea, though - the timeline and setting for Skyrim must have been decided long before TIC was released. Frankly, the impression I get is that the devs are fed up of hearing Morrowind fans compare Oblivion unfavourably to MW and wish they'd all just shut up. I'm not going to accuse them of deliberately blowing up Morrowind to piss off the fans, but either way it seems spectacularly mean-spirited of them.


I don't see that at all. For a start it would be set in the 4th Era rather than the 3rd, but that's pretty much irrelevant anyway - there's no way a game set after the Empire's collapse could just be 'more of the same'. It has to have a massive effect on Tamrielic society and politics, at least in the short term - in the long term it's obvious that nothing significant ever changes in Tamriel anyway, which is precisely why fast-forwarding 200 years makes no difference. Even the factions are still the same - the Dark Brotherhood is back, as are the Fighters' and Mages' Guilds (oh wow, they have different names now. I may faint from the excitement).


I don't know the details; I'm just quoting from the official Skyrim site: "The Empire of Tamriel is on the edge... The future of Skyrim, even the Empire itself, hangs in the balance" yadda yadda yadda.


But this isn't a 'solution' at all. It's just the devs throwing up their hands and saying "we couldn't fix the old system, so we had to get rid of it altogether" - which is complete rubbish. There's a very popular mod for Morrowind called Galsiah's Character Development, which deliberately sets out to make characters more distinct and powergaming much more difficult, and by all accounts succeeds very well (I've never used it myself as I've never really felt the need).

The reason Beth have ditched the old system is not that it's inherently flawed, but that their design philosophy has changed. They're targeting a different audience, one that prefers action-adventure-style combat to stat-based RPGs where the character's skills matter more than the player's. They're hoping it will help them sell more games, and they may well be right. That doesn't mean I have to like it.


You're missing my point somewhat. What's important is not that the game gave my character particular attributes, but that it allowed me to set them up that way before I'd even taken a step in the gameworld. I want a character with a pre-existing background and skillset, not a blank slate.


I really don't agree that three non-consecutive repetitions make a tradition, and the devs' choice of voice actors at least is definitely not a mistake or glitch. But regardless, there's no sense in pleading tradition when there are massive differences between all the games, and the devs are constantly dropping and introducing features of gameplay and lore with each new game (often for no good reason). There's no good argument for keeping this one boring, overdone plot device in the name of 'tradition'.

I’m sure the setting was decided, but the timeline may not have been. From what I’ve seen the game could have just as easily been set a few years after the events of TIC (or even after the Oblivion Crisis). The idea that the devs somehow blew up Morrowind in a fit of spite is indeed mean-spirited, and is a take that I never even considered (I wouldn’t put it past them though).


I can understand what you're saying. I think the difference lies in the two games. What I was saying is that initial attributes and skill levels were attainable by any race/gender chosen. However, I do realize that skills were far more relevant in Morrowind which makes opening skillsets an important consideration. In Morrowind starting off with Long Blade at 35 as opposed to Long Blade at 10 (or 15) was the difference between killing or being killed by the first mudcrab that crossed your path! By Oblivion a low Blade (no distinction between daggers and claymores thankyouverymuch) skill only meant that it took slightly longer to kill something. Applying Oblivion's lack of skillset considerations to someone who professes to love (and play) Morrowind more wasn't fair on my part, so I apologize if it seemed like I missed your point. I do maintain that any pre-existing background given to your character was more a function of your imagination than any mechanism within the game.



This post has been edited by Destri Melarg: Jun 30 2011, 05:33 AM

My point was not that my character's personality and backstory are determined by the game, but that you can still tell quite a lot about her from just from her starting stats, skills and class. Daggerfall's character creation system is even more complex - perhaps a little too much so - but incredibly deep and flexible, allowing you to customise all sorts of things about your character, from individual strengths and weaknesses to their relationships with various in-game factions. It also provides you with a detailed character background based on your class and various other factors, and while I wouldn't want to see that in future games (since it removes the player's freedom to choose their own backstory), in many ways I really like it. It gives the impression that you have an actual connection to the history and politics of Tamriel, instead of having sprung fully-formed into existence on the day the game begins.

I started playing Mass Effect 1 about a week ago, and noticed that it does not have attributes either. You just have your character's class, and then the skills you increase. You even start with one of every type of weapon in the game. I mention it because this appears to be the same direction Skyrim is taking.

My impressions on how this effects the gameplay is that my character feels less distinct then the ones I have for Oblivion or Fallout. After all, the skinny Asari scientist is just as strong as the hulking Krogan thug, and the Krogan is just as smart as she is. There appears to be no real difference between the races at all, except for how they look. It is more like I am playing a generic 'toon' in a game then a real person. I hate using that term, but it really does fit under the circumstances.

Without attributes, I wonder what sort of actual nitty gritty differences there will be between the races in Skyrim? I suppose just once-a-day powers like the Redguards and Nords have, which I never use anyway. Plus the few permanent bonuses like the Breton magicka boost. I imagine that where 75% of people seem to play Bretons in Oblivion, it will climb to 95% in Skyrim if that is the case...

OTOH Skyrim will supposedly have Fallout style perks to hopefully round out the characters. But when you look at those perks, at least half of them are just adding a few points to two of your skills. Nothing really defining there. Most others give you something like a bonus to hit in vats, or let you do more damage. Only a few, like Child At Heart or Animal Friend, seem to really say something about who and what your character is. So it seems unlikely to me that the perks in Skyrim will really make characters feel unique.

On the subject of the ME1 elevators, before the first ride was over I was wishing for a load screen instead. I have sat in thousands of boring elevators rides IRL. I don't play games because I cannot wait to experience more of that special kind of ennui. I vastly prefer a loading screen with a status bar that shows me how long I have to wait. If it is going to be long, then I know I can get up and get a glass of water. If not, then at least I know I am not going to be sitting waiting forever.

I don't think 75% of Oblivion players default to Bretons. 75% of power-gamers, sure, but there are plenty of people more concerned with things other than in-game stats and maximizing damage immunities.

Not me, though. But then again, I'm pretty sure I'm not in the majority of Elder Scrolls gamers.

Todd's basically said that unlike in Oblivion, characters in Skyrim won't be able to obtain every perk and benefit with even the most careful leveling. Which means that a master of bloody freaking everything is next to impossible in Skyrim, even though I've got three of those running around Cyrodiil.

Skyrim will use Steamworks for DRM.

Make of it what you will. I will tell you that A LOT of people will be VERY unhappy with this news, though.

My major concern is how we are willingly handing over a monopoly on PC game distribution to Valve. It's only a matter of time before Antitrust lawsuits start getting filed if this trend continues.

Alternate source (See post 52)

This post has been edited by Thomas Kaira: Aug 17 2011, 04:39 PM

So what does that mean then? Will I have to DL the client just to play the game? Or is it just a 'register your game' thing?

I'm going to be really unhappy if I have to be connected to their servers just to play the game.

Yes, you have to download the Steam client, (or rather, it will be installed for you by the game install procedure if you don't have it) and it has to be running alongside the game at all times.

There is an offline mode for if you have no internet connection, but the installation must occur with an internet connection present.

But remember, Big Brother is always watching....

This post has been edited by Thomas Kaira: Aug 17 2011, 05:10 PM

Well, that's bad news indeed.

My latest confirmation I feel is rather thick on Bethesda's part.

Combat changes?: No body part damage.

Umm... why the hell not? We had it in Fallout 3, so Bethesda already had the engine code for this. Would have been a great way to spice up the combat by letting us attack vulnerable limbs to cripple opponents and swing fights in our favor. But no... yet another missed opportunity. And for a game putting such a heavy emphasis on deep combat, this is a big one.

For one thing, it would have really helped keep the combat from becoming too mindlessly hacky-slashy, but everything I've seen so far is shaping up to be Skyrim: brain not required. Guess it is asking too much for combat to have some form of depth other than "swing sword until opponent keels over and dies." And no, an occasional kill animation here and there does NOT count, as they are completely cinematic and have no bearing on the gameplay. Besides, animations can only get you so far, as it makes the game less of what the PLAYER can do and more what the DEVELOPER can do to rely on them. That is pretty backwards logic for a TES game.

This post has been edited by Thomas Kaira: Aug 24 2011, 01:06 AM

.

This post has been edited by Black Hand: Aug 24 2011, 05:48 AM

Okay, I'm getting sick of all this stripping down Bethesda is doing with Skyrim. I am going to go all the way and call them lazy for everything they have axed so they don't have to fix it.

The latest is equipment condition.

Stripping out armor condition means that craftsmanship for armor essentially no longer matters, nor does crafting skill for those who wish to make it. Sure, less skilled craftsmen might not make the most effective suit of elven armor, but what does that matter to the player since the suit will last forever even if a complete novice made it? Instead, all that differentiates armor now is looks and damage reduction. We have this gigantic crafting skill, but we never need to repair our armor anymore and therefore we lose a critical use of the skill (which would be a great way to help aspiring craftsmen get some experience)?

And the argument of "to reduce clicky work with repairing" does not work, because Bethesda could easily just put in an auto-repair function that calculates total repairs performed and resource costs with minimal button pressing. But no, yet again, they take the easy way out. Instead of properly streamlining the system, they strip it instead.

Lazy, lazy, lazy, lazy.

Oh, and we still need to recharge our weapons, but no longer need to keep our gear repaired? Non-sequiter much? Did Bethesda think this one through at all?

It's all about trying to make the game appeal to as many people as possible. The vast majority of gamers nowadays are instant-gratification, zero-challenge, realism-only-if-it's-not-too-hard types. These are the people Skyrim is being designed to appeal to. The people who demand a huge open world, and at the same time demand a way to completely skip it whenever they want at no cost to them. It is shameful how much of this non-sequiter logic has found its way into the game at this point. I don't know how much more hand-holding I can take.

We no longer need to repair our gear, the game does it for us.
We no longer need to create our character, the game does it for us.
We no longer need to rest to heal, the game does it for us.
We no longer need to explore to find our quest objectives, the game does it for us.

Everything in that list is a hand-holding implementation designed to do nothing more than increase the appeal to the game-without-brain crowd, and are prime candidates for being modded out completely.

This post has been edited by Thomas Kaira: Aug 27 2011, 12:52 PM

So are you still buying it? I know for a fact that I'm not.

Mods won't be able to fix everything. If there isn't a condition system for armor and there aren't any vendors set to repair everything then modding it in will be a PITA.

This post has been edited by Kiln: Aug 30 2011, 09:17 PM

There has been a lot of rather fearful speculation over the PS3 version of Skyrim on the other boards lately. A lot of it cropped up recently when Pete Hines announced there would be no demo of the PS3 version of the game.

The main concern is that the game will turn out to be a complete mess, like Fallout 3 was (inferior visuals, frequent lock-ups, bad framerates, etc.). Unfortunately, I have to fear for them, as well, as Bethesda has released absolutely nothing on the PS3 version of the game. All of the hype is for the 360 version, with a bit of PC thrown in for good measure... but the PS3 just sits in the corner completely ignored. And it's making a lot of people unhappy.

FYI: Oblivion's PS3 port was outsourced, but even it suffered from exclusive bugs (namely the Vampire Cure bug). Fallout 3 was Bethesda's first in-house PS3 port. This is mostly hearsay, but from what has been said, it has become rather clear to me that Bethesda didn't really care about the PS3 version of Fallout 3. I'm hoping the same does not happen for Skyrim, but once again, Bethesda has decided that no data will be shared about the PS3 version of the game, so it's looking a bit grim right now.

I think closed cities..or holds I should say are alot more realistic. Mainly because closed gates keep unwanted visitors out. It's not that big a deal. Mod it out if it's really that bad.

I've had plenty of time to mull things over about the changes being made to Skyrim, and really, closed cities has dropped down to very low on my "must be addressed" list. The only reason Bethesda is really doing that is because the consoles simply can't handle those cities being open, and I can understand working under severe hardware constraints.

I've made a lot of revisions on my stances for some of the changes being made, such as the new leveling system. I never really cared for the previous major/minor branches, and in fact completely obliterated the leveling system for both Morrowind and Oblivion in favor of something more in line with what Skyrim is doing (save for the 'got no class' approach). Every skill has a bearing on your level, major skills (specialized in Skyrim's case) increase your level faster, and the player never deals with attributes at any stage (the mod handles them automatically). I'm still not happy that Attributes got cut (mostly due to the 'missed opportunity' factor), but I do see why they were. The only key difference is that Skyrim is injecting a more level-based approach to the scheme, whereas the mods I refer to actually try to stop your level from really mattering that much (aside from scaling encounters and loot).

So, the new leveling system, after a more thorough analysis, gets my stamp of approval. I like.

As a wise man once said...Mothepussbucket...*Sigh*...

I've got the day off work for Skyrim...(Yes I'm that sad)...This had better be worth it...

Oh, we're PS3 here at Chez Badgere...

Oooh, *Shouts to wife* we're changing the house name dear!!...

You people are mad at 5 closed in city's?
You should be happy that the rest are open....

Since when did spreadsheets of your character help you get immersed in the game? Jeez, I thought this was a chill forum. Guess its just like the official eh?

Not everyone is, but there are some. The only think I'm unhappy about is Steamworks, but I'll deal with it.