I really need to get this off my chest after today's activities, but I want to give it a more private screening before I consider posting it on the BGS board where it will get trolled to Oblivion and back. Since I know everyone here is pretty mature, I'll start here:


This is a debate that has been going on since Oblivion’s release, and continues strong with the impending release of Skyrim. Here is what we know:

-When you first begin, no travel markers will be available.
-Skyrim will feature a carriage service that will allow you to quickly travel to all of the major cities.
-Once you have discovered a location, you can immediately Fast-Travel back whenever you wish.

Essentially, apart from the carriage service, it’s the same system as in Oblivion, with all of the flaws, and believe me, there are a lot (so many, in fact, that I have come to refer to Fast-Travel as Presto-Click Travel Services). Let’s go through them one at a time

To start from the very top, Presto-Click Travel Services defeats the purpose of the carriage system entirely. You just need to use the carriages once, and then you can just Presto-Click your way back. Why even bother providing them if you’re just going to kill off one of your own game mechanics within five minutes of actually starting?

Considering what we saw in Oblivion, Fast-Travel was so easy to exploit that many people (including myself) have come to see it as a cheat. Now, for anyone who may argue “but Bethesda put it in the game, so that means we should use it!” that argument is fatally flawed. By the same logic, I should be able to just go into the command console, type in “TGM,” and play the game permanently invincible because “Bethesda put the command console in the game, so we should use it!” Just because it has been implemented does NOT make it any less of a cheat. But why is it a cheat, to be precise?

Fast-Travel can be used to lug huge amounts of loot far further than you could hope while on foot. All you needed was a few high-strength, low-duration (5 seconds would be enough) Feather spells, a looted dungeon, and Presto-Click travel services. You bring all of the loot outside in waves, then pick up every last bit of it, cast your 5 second Feather spells, Fast-Travel to wherever you want to go, and Presto! You’ve just completely circumvented the encumbrance system! This system is in place to make you THINK about looting dungeons and DECIDE what you want to keep and what you should leave behind. But that is a very clear exploit, so let us instead go to the other, less clear one: Presto-Clicking back and forth multiple times between dungeon and city/home and offloading loot in waves. This is also a circumnavigation of the Encumbrance system. As stated before, the purpose of Encumbrance is to make you think a bit about the loot you recover from dungeons. Essentially, it is there to make you ask two questions: ‘what do I really want’ and ‘what is the most valuable for the least weight’. With Fast-Travel, those questions become irrelevant, because you can just beam back and forth between the dungeon and the cities, collecting anything and everything with a value attached to it, and selling it off. This exploits the Fast-Travel system, and it also exploits the game’s economy. The ONLY reason people do this is because of how incredibly easy and risk-free it is to Fast-Travel. It is a prime example of how people can substitute Fast-Travel for brains, and use Presto-Click Travel Services to remove challenge from the game.

Speaking of removing challenge, Fast travel was very good at that right from the start. Why? It is completely 100% cost-free and risk-free. You click your map, and bingo! There you are, safe and sound, despite the fact that if I made the same trip on foot, I would probably have had a nasty encounter with a troll or two, maybe an ogre. And let’s not forget that Oblivion Gate, either! How is this fair? Why is it that the people who take the longer approach get shafted? This is completely backwards and blatantly out of balance. Not only can you skip the trip, but you can skip EVERY hazard, as well. Now, there will come the argument “I already made the trip on foot once, so why should I have to go through all that again?” To these people, I really have to say go back to playing Call of Duty and Halo Reach. Such linear thinking is in direct conflict to the sandbox approach and dynamic world Bethesda is creating for you here. The world isn’t static, and Fast-Travel, unfortunately, makes the opposite assumption. Stuff happens out on the road that you cannot hope to predict. So why should Fast-Travel allow you to skip past all that? In this case, it is detracting from the overall experience of the game. Why even bother to make a dynamic world if you’re just going to let the player skip past everything after they’ve seen it just one time?

In fact, why bother making such a huge world at all if you’re just going to let the player skip the whole thing? There comes a time in the late game where the player will have explored a large portion of the map and revealed a lot of POIs for him to Presto-Click between. And this is when the idea of the large world really starts to fall over. When you got to that point in Oblivion, it placed such a heavy reliance on the Fast-Travel for its quests that I failed to see the point of why the world was even made so large anymore. All you do is Presto-Click to this place, speak to this guy, Presto-Click to the other side of the friggin map to talk to this guy, then Presto-Click AGAIN to the other side of the map to kill some other dude, and finally you beam yourself back to the other side of the map to finish things off. That’s it; a quest that might have taken an hour (real-time) without Fast-Travel has been completed in five minutes. Why even bother with the huge map if you’re going to push the player so hard to avoid it?

What I am trying to communicate here is that Bethesda placed such a heavy reliance on limitless, instantaneous, risk-free instant-travel in Oblivion that it seriously hurt the experience. I kid you not, the game got SO much better when I stopped using fast-travel altogether.

*Record-scratching*

Wait, what is that I hear? “Don’t like it, don’t use it?” Sorry, but there’s a pretty major flaw in the logic behind this argument: ignoring an issue does not change the fact that it exists. Did Bethesda’s ignoring the Abomb bug change the fact that it was there, and that it destroys people’s profiles to this day? No, so ignoring the fast travel system does not change the fact that it is massively flawed.

What needs to happen is Fast Travel needs to be rebalanced, because in Oblivion, it was essentially a cheat re-classified as a feature. First, let’s look back at previous travel systems, starting with Daggerfall:

Daggerfall: You could fast-travel from anywhere to anywhere, but there was both risk AND cost involved, as well as the need to plan ahead due to time constraints. You had three factors that would determine travel speed, the risk factor (where you would get cut short by being injured), and the amount of gold you paid. The more gold you paid, the less risky the travel, but the more time it would take you to reach your destination.

Morrowind: Fast Travel was restricted to paid services with limited locations. There were many points in the game where you would need to enter the wilderness, where travel services were not offered, and thus you would be forced to walk.

Oblivion: Fast-travel from anywhere to anywhere you’ve previously discovered, with no cost and no risk. For those of you who would argue this same system (minus the need to discover new locations yourself) was in Daggerfall, Daggerfall’s world map was almost twice the size of Great Britain; Oblivion was 16 square miles (4 miles from end-to-end). You decide where such a travel system fits better.

Skyrim needs to change things up with the fast-travel, because as it is, it removes a huge amount of challenge from the game (and please don’t argue against this, if you don’t want to be challenged, just turn your system off and go read a book) and detracts from the overall experience by linear-ifying a game that was not meant to played in a linear style. As such, it is only natural that the travel system has an air of unpredictability about it this time ‘round. For this, we need not look far: there are random encounters that could occasionally interrupt a player’s fast travel, for instance. Then there are the dragons, why not give them the ability to interrupt fast-travel, considering how important they are to the game? Perhaps weather and environmental hazards that would not halt a fast-travel, but simply make it take more game-time (delays, they tend to happen). Or just take the carriage and pay for a nice, safe trip between two cities. And if all else fails, impose hard limits (you can only fast-travel three times per day, or something along those lines). You built the big world, Bethesda now encourage your audience to experience it. Don’t throw it all away like you did with Oblivion and just do the huge world for bragging rights, make your audience experience it to its fullest extent. Isn’t that why you want us to buy the game, after all?

I have never heard anyone say this.





You have just compared a game feature you don't like or agree with to a fatal flaw that destroys the game. If you want to argue your point, have realistic comparisons to bolster your point. (like your comparison to the Morrowind travel feature - that was a valid comparison).


I personally don't use fast travel when playing unless I have removed a mod that has left my character in a place that no longer exists. My character rarely owns a horse either, she walks or runs everywhere she goes. I don't care that fast travel is there in the game because I don't feel the need to control how OTHER PEOPLE play the game.

The one thing I enjoy so much about these open world games is that we make our own rules, our own choices and preferences. While I like to roleplay the world with little use of magic (because as we all know Maxical is terrible at it) and have my character do everything manually - another person may feel that Tamriel is a world where magic exists, including the magic of "Recall" scrolls in Morrowind, or the "Magic Map" of Oblivion.

The point is, the games are made for millions of people and each of us has our own different idea of what we want in our game. The magic of fast travel is provided for those that roleplay wizards or heavy magic use. For those of us like you and I that prefer to eschew the magic aspects of the game and rough it - we can.

It is a big world out there full of diverse people of varied interests that buy and play these games. They aren't meant to target only one segment of user, but to offer a variety of options so we can make our own choices. If you have your way, everyone will be forced to play YOUR way instead of their own.

This is not a fatal flaw, it is an option that you can take or not at YOUR will - no one is forcing their will onto you, it is an open-world game that each of us can find what pleases us in it - and eschew what we don't like or mod it out.

As an avid modder yourself, you have the option of modding your own game so that fast travel is disabled on your game.

I'm not griping at you, just pointing out that these games are made for diverse appeal, not a singular viewpoint. They give you the modding option (which most games don't) so you can alter the game to suit your own idea of what you want out of that world - make it your own idea of what is more immersive to you.


The one thing I've heard about Skyrim that really conflicts with Bethesda's own idea of these open-world games is what Todd said in his last interview: that the player will not be able to avoid doing the main questline.

Todd said he was offended by the number of people that didn't want to save the world in Oblivion - but it is our world once we buy the game, and we should not have choices forced upon us IMHO. If you want to gripe about that I will join you.

This post has been edited by mALX: Jul 15 2011, 06:53 PM

TK, while you have a valid gripe, I have to agree with mALX. Beth is trying to sell as many games as possible. That means selling it to savvy role-players like yourself and Acadian and SubRosa, and selling it to action-oriented players that like to just "beat the game."

Let's face it, many computer game players are action-oriented. Just look at the ongoing popularity of games like GTA and CoD. I've played my share of action/shooters, and enjoy the slash-n-smash from time to time (like Infinity Blade for the iPad). My impression of the game market is that action is where the bulk of the market share is right now. I don't blame Beth for making a popular game more action-oriented. But I am somewhat dismayed by the statement by Todd that you can't avoid the main quest. I'm going to wait and see if that changes between now and release day; more importantly, I'm going to wait and see if someone can come up with a mod that allows you the option of ducking the MQ. So far, I haven't seen enough of Skyrim to make me salivate for it - it just doesn't appeal to me so much. Maybe it's the choice of location (too far north for me, no offense meant to those of you who live north of the Arctic Circle i.e. Norway, Sweden, Scotland, and Canada), or that they keep using the same stock he-man barbarian type character as the PC in the trailers (nothing turns me off faster than cliched stereotypes).

As a matter of fact, I've not bought a major computer game title for three years. Oblivion's been a good all-rounder for me. I respect those who say Morrowind are better, but I've never played MW, so I'm not going to agree or disagree those opinions. I am basing my opinion of TES IV on my comparison to other games that I've actually played, such as the Rainbow Six series (love, love, looove that game still!).

If Beth doesn't make money on Skyrim, they'll either stop making TES games, or they'll return to the elements that made the earlier TES games so popular - the RPG's and the super flexibility they provide players.

I like the fast travel system in Oblivion. The game would be unplayable without it, as it would mean constantly walking back and forth across nearly the entire map when you are doing quests like Tears of the Savior. I don't want to spend two hours of my time walking from one place to another for the hundredth time in a game. It gets boring fast, and I don't play computer games because I want to be bored.

I have played Morrowind, and prefer the Oblivion-style fast travel to its dozen different types of teleporting around the map. I thought it was just a pain in the british boat to keep track of it all in Morrowind. I also remember KOTOR I. No fast travel at all. Now that was a serious pain.

There is also a better way of getting around the encumbrance system in the game. Use a mod that changes your carryweight. Or the console. No need for feather potions or the fast travel system. To be honest, I never occurred to me to use the latter. I have always used a mod instead, as going back and forth a dozen times between a dungeon and a city to sell off my loot is again not my idea of having fun. I tried it when I first got the game, and very quickly fixed that problem with a mod. It is the encumbrance system itself that is screwed up. Daggers don't weigh 10lbs and swords 40lb. What needs to be fixed is that Bethesda needs to buy a scale.

I would hardly say that using Fast Travel to get from one place to another the first time is screwing over the player who goes on foot instead. Avoiding a fight is kind of pointless in this game. The whole purpose is to go out, kill things, take their treasure, and level up. A player who is avoiding that is missing out on most of the game. I would say that not having a Fast Travel system to let you quickly get back and forth across the same ground you have walked back and forth over is screwing the player, as all it does is waste their time without offering any new challenges, as all the monsters were killed the first time through.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Jul 15 2011, 05:51 PM

I am also glad that FT is in the game. Sure, more travel options would be nice (carriage, ship, mage teleport pads come to mind), but having FT alone at least allows the player to RP that these other options exist. I have no problem augmenting FT with supporting imagination to incorporate it into RP. Some players simply treat FT as an administrative function like saving or exiting the game to simulate an uneventful trip so they can pick and chose where and how to spend their playtime. I quite like the ability to rather quickly zip from one place to another if testing something or conducting a photoshoot to support our story.

It seems to me that having both FT and a carriage system is a fine idea. Carriages make a nice RP addition, but there is no need to eliminate FT for those who prefer it.

Some players have an attitude of 'beat the game and move on' and gamemakers are unwise to ignore that audience. I spend loads of time on the Bethesda game forums and hear plenty of complaining about how tedious it is that there is so much travel required in the game. These statements make it clear there is a segment of players who believe in instant gratification or perhaps simply have differing priorities. I expect these players prefer FT to making their way to the nearest stable to catch a carriage. I also hear plenty of judgmental assertions that using FT 'ruins the game'. These latter statements seem to assume that other players are not smart enough to figure out how they 'should' play. Not everyone loves to pick the flowers, play in the waterfalls, dance with unicorns and generally take loads of time savoring a trip from A to B like some of us do.

So, while I certainly endorse more options, I must disagree with the concept of eliminating options.

Agreed. I would even like the idea of bringing back the "recall" scrolls where you had to either purchase the scroll or find them in loot - as long as they weren't limited in number to control the gameplay.

I just have real issues with a game that tries to control your experience - one of the major reasons I liked TES to begin with was that they didn't. I want to be the one who decides if I want to experience one thing or another in the game. (example: Fast travel). If Skyrim forces the main questline down my throat as Todd said in that interview - that may limit my enthusiasm for playing Skyrim.

I guess I'll just have to play it and see how linear it gets before making a judgement.

This post has been edited by mALX: Jul 15 2011, 06:45 PM

Why does everyone seem to think I want to remove the Fast-Travel option, when I clearly explain in the final paragraph that is not the case? I just want to see it tweaked so that it is less of a cheat and more of an actual feature. If we have random encounters and dragons all over the place, why should fast-travel allow us to skip past all that? It's like building an amazing salad to show off in the menu of your restaurant but giving players the option to only order the lettuce. Why not just make them a different salad?

@mALX: This is a bad business practice to fall into. Trying to cater to everyone at once is going to leave all parties feeling like they got left out. Why? Because when you try to appeal to everyone at once, you end up with a game that has no style, no charm, and nothing to help it stand out. I sincerely want Bethesda to learn from Oblivion that lesson: trying to cater to the entire world is shooting yourself in the foot. Why is Oblivion a prime example here? Because although it contained so much, it did almost nothing well. This is what happens when you try to make your audience too broad. EVERYONE suffers as a result, and I don't want to see this happen again.

By the way, I was rather unsure about that argument you pointed out, so thanks for confirming it doesn't really hold up.

@haute ecole rider: See above. Bethesda is trying to compete with GTA and CoD when they have no reason to do that. The Elder Scrolls started as a role-playing saga, and I feel Bethesda has lost touch with their history now because they are trying so hard to make their games action-adventure that cater to everyone instead of actual RPGs that cater to their specific segment of the market and attract new people in because it is honest about what it is and impressed the people who already enjoy such games. That was exactly what happened when I went to Best Buy to purchase Morrowind, because the game was honest about itself and well loved by the people who enjoyed it before me. As explained previously, trying to please everyone 90% of the time ends with no one being pleased because the game just does 50 things badly instead of 10 things well. I get the feeling that Bethesda is afraid to let the game speak for itself.

@SubRosa: I think you missed the part where I explained that the console was not intended to be used as a gameplay feature just because it is there. You are also not taking into account the fact that a huge amount of Skyrim's audience as we have seen it is going to be on the Xbox 360. They don't have the console or mods, ergo they have no choice but to live with the encumbrance system as Bethesda designed it. And mods are not legitimate fixes, as much as we all love them, as they are unofficial, I can only ever view them as workarounds realistically (until Microsoft and Sony stop being so damn paranoid and let the console players use them, then I will reconsider my stance on them).

@Acadian: I'm not trying to eliminate fast-travel, I'm trying to say that the game can be easily hurt by a lack of travel options. Oblivion is a prime example here, due to how many quests require multiple instances of globetrotting to complete, which all but forced the player to fast-travel all over the place. Hopefully the carriage system will address this, though. At least Bethesda is providing an alternative, even if it seems a bit half-baked.

Anyways, thanks for the food for thought with those responses, and thanks even more for being civil. I'm probably not going to repost this in the Skyrim boards due to the all-around shameful level of maturity there. It would be like trying to start a sensible debate in GameFAQs, you'll just end up with a huge firestorm.

This post has been edited by Thomas Kaira: Jul 15 2011, 09:15 PM

I think the idea of carriages don't help with "big, unseen world" problem. However, I think it should be done how Red Dead Redemption did it. AKA, you climb into the carriage and tell the driver where to go. Then once your off, you have the option to "sleep" through the journey or enjoy a scenic ride through valleys and whatnot. This way, you can still have random encounters with dragons attacking your carriage whether awake or sleeping, but you can spot the dragon and prepare if your awake.

How cool would that be !! I always wished they did that with the boat rides too, lol.

Well, I have thought about everything you have responded with, and I have decided to allow for a form of limited Fast-Travel in my game now. No need to be masochistic about this, but at the same time, I do wish to keep it frugal so I don't come to rely on it. These are the rules:

1. I can only Fast-Travel if I am on horseback. No horse, no fast-travel. (This gives me a very good reason to buy one now, too)
2. My destination must be a stable, an inn, or a player-owned home. Nowhere else.
3. I can only fast-travel once per day.
4. I cannot fast-travel if I would arrive at my destination after nightfall. (Travel times as calculated by the game are actually very small, so I always wait from one to three hours after a fast-travel depending on my travel distance)

This post has been edited by Thomas Kaira: Jul 16 2011, 04:24 AM

If you make a mod of scrolls with the city names on them that when you activate one it will transport you to that city - and place them for sale in the inventory of the shopkeepers and in random loot - I will DL that mod !!

Oh, I would go far beyond that!

If I do make it into a mod, I am going to make it completely replace the default Fast-travel system.

Trouble is, it would likely need OBSE to do that, and I'm going to have to wait a bit there, because before I venture into OBSE, I would like to learn a bit of C++ so I'm not completely out of my depth.

If you download OBSE (version 20 is the current one) - go to their read-me and it teaches you the language used for OBSE & Oblivion (which is more or less based on C++, but has been altered slightly). You can also find it on a page in the Construction Set WIKI that has a breakdown for OBSE, Oblivion, and Pluggy.


Here is a link to the CS one:


http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index...st_of_Functions


*

I'm torn on this one. On the one hand, I agree that the fast travel in Oblivion discouraged exploration and made the game too easy; on the other hand, there were times when I found the constant trudging back-and-forth in Morrowind immensely frustrating (especially with the game's slow default walking speed). What I'd personally like to see is a compromise:

- As proposed for Skyrim, FT should be disabled until you've already travelled to a location. This makes sense.

- FT should have obvious gameplay disadvantages compared to the alternatives, such as carriages. It should be slower (MUCH slower) and riskier, with a high chance of being interrupted by random attacks - bandits, wild animals, dragons, whatever.

- Like resting, FT should be disabled in combat or when enemies are nearby.

- There should be teleportation spells as in Morrowind, providing a safe, quick alternative to FT (presuming you have the skill to cast them).

- To solve the encumbrance problem, perhaps FT could be disabled above a certain encumbrance level (unless you're using a horse, in which case you could offload some of your gear). In fact, encumbrance should probably have a much bigger effect on gameplay in general - e.g. high encumbrance should slow down your walking/running speed and drain your fatigue more quickly.

None of this is going to happen, of course. But it's what I'd like to see in future ES games.

Wait, in the vanilla game Oblivion you cannot fast travel when an enemy is near (already) - and can't fast travel when over-encumbered either. And when my character is over-encumbered she can't move period, her feet are planted and rooted - all this in the vanilla game. I don't think you can mount your horse till your encumbrance is handled either, but am not sure about that - anyone know?

Also in the vanilla game Oblivion, fast travel is disabled until you have found a place - except for the eight major cities. That made a bit of sense that the large cities may have some form of transport for people (which the player can decide how in their creative imagination).

All these things are already in the vanilla game Oblivion, perhaps an overhaul mod (like Francesco's) has changed these things in your game? I know KC has Francesco's overhaul, and his character can walk encumbered - but is slowed way down and her fatigue drops from it.

This post has been edited by mALX: Jul 16 2011, 02:19 PM

I agree with Helena here, Morrowind did have times when it was simply horrible to try and get anywhere, for me this was largely getting to the Ashlander camps, even once i'd visited them and knew exactly where they were the journey was a trial in itself.

However in Oblivion it still doesn't make complete sense to me to have a way to immediately arrive at any destination from any other destination. I know it's possible to justify it with your own imagination in the form of mark and recall spells, but then you'd still be limited to fast travelling to and from one place.

What I'd like to see is a carriage system between the major cities, such as in Morrowind and is proposed for Skyrim, as well as to any of the towns,villages or inns on the map. From there you can strike out on your own while still being closer to your destination.

From there, if your target is already still far away I would like to be able to hire a guide. There would be one in most villages or inns, ranging from simple local hunters to fully fledged adventurers, who would be willing to take you into the wilderness, for a price. They would be limited to certain sites at first, well known ruins or caves, but as you discovered more places they'd agree to take you to these as well.

A downside to this though is that it suggests being able to get to a site without having explored it already, but personally I think it still makes sense. If you want to explore then feel free too, if you don't want to explore though a simple donation to get you where you're going would be a nice trade off for the ease of travel.

Or atleast that's how I would like it to change. I agree that the carriages should have the option to both watch the world go by, or just sleep through the journey. Back when I played World of Warcraft the flight travel system was both a wonder and a gripe. It allowed me to quickly travel, as well as enjoying the sights. This maintained the idea of scale and the size of the world while still giving people the option to travel quikcly. However when you're doing the same journey over and over again you just want it to go a bit quicker.

1. This was sorta how Oblivion handled things at the beginning save all of the cities being available for Fast-Travel right from the start. Unfortunately, this kinda ruined the point of Fast-Travel needing to be an unlockable feature, since you could beam yourself across the map at leisure the second you exit the sewers. Skyrim will change that up a bit by not allowing Fast-Travel to the major cities right from the start, which will help balance things out a bit here (thoguh not by much).

2. Exactly what I am trying to propose (why does everyone assume that when someone complains about fast-travel, they want to see it thrown away?). Random encounters, dragons, and perhaps just a randomly generated bandit attack or something, should be capable of interrupting fast-travel, forcing the player to deal with it before he could move on. Though to keep this from getting too annoying, if a fast-travel attempt got interrupted, the next attempt (so long as it occurs within five to ten minutes real-time) will always succeed. Personally, I would go even further and only allow Fast-Travel for unlimited distances on horseback, and even then, only to stables, inns, and player homes (gives the player a reason to buy one). Whereas fast-travel on foot would be limited to a certain distance, and only allowed once per day (so the player can't multi-beam and completely ignore the distance check).

3. Fast-Travel already does this.

4. Should be easy enough, just compare the character's current encumbrance with their current base encumbrance (constant effect feather spells would be treated as a base encumbrance modification for their purposes here, but limited duration spells would not), and if the former is higher, you can't fast-travel. This was one of those areas where Oblivion's FT system was very easy to exploit, so it really does need to be fixed.

mALX: I use Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul in my game, which removes the ability to fast-travel to all the major cities from the start, with the notable exception of the Imperial City (you were in jail there, so you've obviously already visited).

However, I must disagree that giving the player immediate FT access to every city was a good idea. This gives the player ten locations on a not-actually-all-that-big map that he can beam to right from the start, and that hurts the exploration aspect of the game quite badly. Why even bother building such a large world if you're going to let the player skip the whole thing at no cost at the very beginning of the game? Thankfully, Bethesda did see reason with this one, and starting with Fallout 3, you had to discover fast-travel locations on your own.

Todd stated the reason he removed teleportation spells was because they were "too easy to exploit," but you know what, I think he needs a reality check here. Just don't let the player teleport while in combat, how hard is that?! Lazy lazy lazy.

I still strongly resist placing limits on the player as if the player is unable to set their own limits. I maintain more options is better. Fast travel (FT), carriages, ships, mage teleport pads - all of it. Then leave it to the player what to use and how to travel. It is not possible to foresee all the styles of play that every player might choose and enjoy.

For example, before I had any interest in mods, I basically did my own 'alternate start' mod for a character as follows: Do the tutorial, FT to Chorrol and drop the amulet, FT to Anvil then 'wake up' and start the game. That particular character from that point only used FT from stable to stable when on the back of a stolen horse. The character may have just as easily limited FT to city to city simulating a mage teleport system. Because FT was in the game with restriction choices up to the player, this worked beautifully.

More options is better as it allows the player to make their own limitation choices instead of being fed limitations by the developers who cannot possibly envision all the possibilities.

It actually only gives seven, as you pointed out the player begins in the IC (so has obviously already found it), and there are only seven other cities. As far as it "hurting the exploration aspect of the game quite badly" - it can't hurt that if you don't use it. That is in place for those people who are goal oriented and have no desire to explore.

I personally prefer to explore - so I do. How am I hurt by the ability being there if I don't avail myself of it? It is no skin off my nose if another person wants to play the game differently than me, I am not being forced to use the fast travel as soon as I leave the sewers just because it is there - it is a choice that is there if I wish to use it, I just don't wish to so I don't.

You can't custom design a game so it suits just your way of gameplay except via mods. If Bethesda geared their games toward just one segment of player they would be out of business. You can mod out what you don't like, mod in what you want - so why the extended dialogue because they OFFER alternatives to a different segment than yourself - who also buys this game.

There is an attitude of trying to control how others should play the game, and overall intolerence of anything that doesn't exactly meet one's personal viewpoint that is rampant in these debates over "whether it should be in the game or not" because it assumes "your way" is the only correct way. (*not saying you personally, but the griper whoever they may be)

It may be the only way you or I want to do it, but we are not the only consumers buying the product. I have no problem with it being in the game, I just don't choose to use it. I can see no reason to insist it be removed because there are just as many players who find the back and forth trekking to be a detriment to their enjoyment.

As it stands, you can already fast travel on horseback. I don't do it, because I personally think that would eliminate the whole reason for riding the horse. The option is there for players who don't get enjoyment seeing their character riding across the countryside on horseback. I don't insist Bethesda remove the function just because I don't like it, I just don't use the function.

Just because something is there does not mean one has to use it, that is what is so great about these games is that we are given a world of options and can pick and choose which suit us best and avail ourselves of these - and just not use the ones that don't suit our own vision of what we want in a game.

This post has been edited by mALX: Jul 16 2011, 05:33 PM

AGREED 100% !!! I do not want the developers - or anyone - determining how I should play my game. These games are single-player roleplay, the gameplay should be based on each player's own choices, decisions, and preferences - not someone else's version or vision of how everyone else's roleplay should be.