Jacki, everyone has given you good advice. It's up to you to distill it and decide how to go from here. . .

Do you really want to write detailed fight scenes? Or do you rather want to skim over them and dwell more on the aftermath?

In my own writing, I go case by case. Did I write every single Oblvion Gate Julian closes? No - just the ones that matter to the progression of the story. The ones that I did write were usually the landmark ones - the Great Gate at Kvatch, the one with the Huzzah!-spouting Dunmer, the one with Burd and the two Bruma guardsmen, and of course the final one at Bruma where we recover the Great Sigil Stone.

I take pretty much the same approach with the fights. Just the big ones get the details, and I dwell less on the technical stuff than I do on the internal battles that my protagonist fights at the same time. Those are much more interesting, as one's greatest foe is one's own self.

I admit that the fights in Sancre Tor scared the crap out of me. How am I going to write these and do justice to the Fab Four that Destri Melarg was gracious enough to let me borrow? I turned to the author of the missive that Grits recommended (and I do second her recommendation). He was gracious enough to help me flesh out these battles and make them realistic without getting too technical (I'm not too familiar with fencing terms, and I believe most of my readers aren't either).

So my advice to you is to not be afraid to push the envelope, to step out of your comfort zone once in a while, but also don't be afraid to ask for help from others. You already asked for help here on this thread, and you got it in spades. Jacki, now it's time for you to stretch your boundaries, not only for your character but also for yourself.

For me, this says it all. It is the only reason I write. My wife says I have reached epitome of geekdom and can't believe I find it fun. But it is! Having others read and enjoy it is just gravy on the potatoes. If I didn't find it fun, I'd quit in a heartbeat. I know I'm veering off the fight scene topic, but this meant something to me.

Yes, because Gene Roddenberry's somewhat utopian version of the future failed so spectacularly didn't it?...

Sorry, but all that above just sounds pretentious...

It's up to the individual how they write...

I'm not out to make money...Just to stop myself going mad...

Like Treydog said, we share it because we think others might enjoy what we do...I'll share my over-powered heroes when I'm done...And people will read or not...But I know that I've done what I wanted, and how I've wanted to...

People should stop feeling like there's only one way to do things else it's boring...Boring to you, fine...Excellent...

If more respect was given to the fact that people are actually trying to write rather than the technicalities of what they're writing...People might hang around longer...

As the cliché goes, give them points for trying...

While I think your points on the technical aspects are all valid and correct, I also think if doing all that is no fun, then you should absolutely do whatever you want to do...

I write for fun. I really don't care for all of the technical stuff, but improving ny skill makes it enjoyable to me.

You can't tell lately by my posts, but that's because I'm too tired to watch what aim writing XD

I'm gonna agree with McB. Do something because you enjoy it. Otherwise it becomes a chore and it's no longer an outlet. If you're good at it, great! Of you enjoy it as well, even better! Even of you like writing and suck at it, still, that's great! Good for you for doing something you enjoy!

I think that most people would agree that the bottom line is it should be Fun, for you the writer, in this context. We can all give you advice about what We would do and what We think that You should do, but in the end it's up to you how you distil that or indeed whether you take any notice of it at all!
(if you are writing for money then I guess it would be different in terms of how you looked at your writing).

If you improve and learn as a result, well then that's a great bonus.

Edit: oh duh, that will teach me to read posts properly! Sorry Ms H didn't mean to almost completely duplicate what you said!

This post has been edited by PhonAntiPhon: May 23 2013, 08:28 AM

In the Mustard / McBadgere debate, I'm afraid I must side with McB as well. Marvel and DC Comics have made a fortune publishing works that contain "God-like" characters. The reason they have made a fortune is that the readers enjoyed it. Fiction is full of untruths, hence the word "fiction". Superman can get shot with every bullet on the planet and walk away from it unscathed. So "God-like" works. It's all in the presentation. Now one might argue that Superman does have his weakness to kryptonite, a fictional mineral designed to humanize him, but that comes right back to presentation. And if that is the story that a writer has fun presenting, so much the better.

This post has been edited by ThatSkyrimGuy: May 23 2013, 04:29 PM

This is going to sounds like a massive Politician cop-out but after having read what's been written after I wrote the "superhuman" bit, I think that really the answer lies between the two, and that it's all about context.
You're right TSG, it's about about presentation, you're right McB, it's about fun, and you're right Colonel, it's about balance and yeah being true, but that's a subjective thing - certainly here and now.
If in having Super-Khajiit stomping on Cities for chuckles that's you doing what you want then arguably that's as right and proper as carefully working up a logically-consistent, flawed antiheroine - (I can't imagine who I mean here... )
As said, none of us write this for money - (though gods know I'd love too!) - if we did then maybe considerations would of necessity need to be different but as it is it comes down to what you yourself feel comfortable with and how you can justify to yourself.
If others like it and you can benefit constructively from that then that's cool as well.

Me?
I like my characters flawed, like my heroes; which is why I always root for The Big Black Bat is The Dark Knight Returns, and I'm a BIG fan of Marshall Law!!
But it's all opinion, in the end...

There's so much good writing of types and descriptions on this site that there's more than enough of viewpoint to go round, and that's just as it should be.

This post has been edited by PhonAntiPhon: May 23 2013, 05:50 PM

Time to pick brains again. I am sure this is a researchable question, but asking the authors in here is research, isn't it? This regards naming locations and how to treat the text. When you refer to a location, such as an inn or a store, do you -

* Italicize the name - The Sleeping Giant Inn
* Place the name in quotes - "The Sleeping Giant Inn"
* Just capitalize the words - The Sleeping Giant Inn

- or any combination of the above?

Thanks in advance for your replies.

I think the capital letters are sufficient for place names. I usually use Elements of Style to check such matters, but I just discovered that I have misplaced my copy.

As Grits says. A simple capitalization is sufficient for proper names of places. Also, per the Chicago Manual of Style (my go-to reference)- the initial "the" does not need to be capitalized- although it can.

e.g.- We spent a pleasant evening in the common room of the Sleeping Giant Inn.

This post has been edited by treydog: May 27 2013, 02:09 PM

I just capitalize.

Re the capitalisation of the word "The", I think the rule is to do so if it's actually part of the name. If the sign outside says "The Sleeping Giant Inn" then the name includes "The" and it should be treated that way. And note the reason I quoted the inn's name, and do the same!

I'd use italics in a few cases, too. Such as

The tavern's name was The Sleeping Giant Inn, and it lay near the Silver Road.

You need something to set the name apart, and italics do that appropriately. Especially when "The" is part of it, and you need to make that clear.

Two things where I'd like to hear how other people handle them...

First: money! And how much it's worth. Writing fic often involves figuring out prices for items which we aren't given in-game. Do you guess? Do you have some sort of conversion method (1 drake is X dollars/euros/pounds/etc.)? Do you spend around an hour Googling the amount an average labourer was paid in drachma in 5th century BC Greece and try to approximate that with drakes so you can figure out how much the Tamrielic version of Tyrian purple dye should cost?

...no, I didn't end up doing this just the other day, it certainly didn't prompt this question. Why do you ask.

(Also, how do you handle things where the economy doesn't quite make sense? I'm currently pondering how to deal with the fact that an enchanted amulet worth 400 drakes could, in-game, only have been enchanted with a filled soul gem worth 50000 drakes. Guys, I think I figured out why enchanting services in Morrowind cost incredible amounts - it's the only way for them to make any money at all.)

Second: what to write and what to leave out.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, because it's been nagging at me more and more that I have almost an entire novel's worth of words written and yet I've barely scratched the surface of my plotting for this story - and, more to the point, not that much has actually *happened* yet. :/ I am relatively sure an editor would faint at the sight of this thing. I'm also pretty certain that there are a bunch of scenes in the earlier chapters that could probably be cut (among others my habit of starting with Adryn waking up and ending with her going to bed - one I am *really* trying to break - is a sign that I need to learn some things about pacing), and that I could really do with a good way of figuring out what to skip. And, related to this, good ways to timeskip and segue.

On the subject of money, I had to throw out the prices in the game and completely start over from scratch. What I did first was create a system of coinage, then I decided what the monthly wages of the basic rungs of society were. Then once I knew what people earned for a living, I started looking at goods and services and assigned values that would be affordable to the people at the varying levels of society.

For example, here is my money system for Cyrodiil:
******************
Money
A reman is a copper coin. 16 remans are worth 1 drake (or 4 remans worth a quarter drake)
A drake is a silver coin, and the basic unit of currency. It is sometimes cut in halves or quarters.
A septim is a gold coin, and is worth 10 drakes.

******************
Monthly Wages
Unskilled Laborer/Farmer = 100 drakes
Skilled Laborer/Artisan = 200 drakes
Guild Mage = 400 drakes
Legionary = 100 drakes
Centurion = 1000 - 4000 drakes

******************
1 day docking fee for dory at IC Waterfront = 2 remans
1 meal at a hot food stand = 4 remans (quarter drake).
1 loaf of bread = 2 remans
1 pot = quarter drake
1 dish = 2 remans
1 oil lamp = quarter drake
1 mug of ale in a tavern or food stand = 1 reman
1 glass of house wine = 2 remans
1 jug (half gallon) of cheap wine = half drake
1 jug (half gallon) fine wine = 5 drakes
1 set of lower class clothing = 2 drakes
1 set of middle class clothing = 5 drakes
1 set upper class clothing = 20+ drakes
1 bath at bathhouse = 2 remans
1 night at cheap inn = 2 drakes (The Lonely Suitor, Five Claws, Grey Mare, Inn of Ill Omen, Olav's Tap and Tack)
1 night at decent inn = 5 drakes (Bloated Float, Wawnet Inn, Faregyl, Gottshaw, King and Queen, Luther Broad's, Newlands Lodge)
1 night at excellent inn = 10 drakes (Merchants Inn, Silverhome on the Water, All-Saints, Jerall View, Oak and Crosier)
1 night at luxury inn = 20 drakes (Tiber Septim Hotel, Cheydinhal Bridge Inn, Counts Arms)
1 month rent for cheap apartment = 40 drakes
1 month rent for middle class apartment = 80 drakes
1 healing potion = 20 drakes
1 cure disease potion = 100 drakes
1 steel arming sword = 200 drakes
1 mithril sword = 500 drakes
1 steel mace = 30 drakes
1 steel spear = 10 drakes
1 Dwemer/Elven sword = 1,000 drakes
1 glass/ebony sword = 2,000 drakes
1 glass/ebony battleaxe = 1,700 drakes
1 longbow = 10 drakes
1 recurve bow = 2,000 drakes
20 arrows = 5 drakes
1 suit leather armor = 15 drakes
1 suit mail armor = 200 drakes
1 suit plate armor = 500 drakes
1 suit mithril armor = 1,000 drakes
1 suit dwemer armor = 2,000 drakes
1 suit elven armor = 2,000 drakes
1 suit orcish armor = 2,000 drakes
1 suit miran-talurn armor = 4,000 drakes
1 suit ebony armor = 5,000 drakes
1 suit glass armor = 5,000 drakes
Coach ride from IC to Chorrol/Bravil/Cheydinhal = 40 drakes
Letter from IC to Chorrol/Bravil/Cheydinhal = 20 drakes
Learn a Novice level spell = 20 drakes
Welkynd Stone = 100 drakes
Varla Stone = 500 drakes
Average farm = 20 acres cost 4,000 drakes to buy (produces enough to feed six people with animals. 640 acres = 1 square mile)
Entrance to the Arena = quarter drake


For the second question - What to leave in, what to take out? I ask myself "Does this drive the plot?" If the answer is yes, then it needs to stay in. If it does nothing to advance the story, or otherwise illustrate the natures of the characters, then it is cut. Obviously this all depends on having a very clear idea of what your plot is, and what your goals are. For example, if you are writing a romance, then the romance itself between two (or more) of your characters is your focus. We need to see everything that effects that romance. What we do not need to see is our characters at work, going to their sister's birthday party, feeding their cat, etc... Unless those things are tied to the romance. For example if your characters meet at a work, then we need to see that. But OTOH we do not need to see every other working day that has nothing to do with the romance.

Here is my two cents...um...drakes...um...septims...worth. Please bear in mind that I am a novice writer with no training what-so-ever. It's one of the reasons I love this thread.

Regarding money - I am assuming that you want to write about buying something that isn't for sale in the game. If I were to try this in my writing, I would completely wing it. I would think of something comparable in-game and work from there. SubRosa has devised quite the system. I don't know if she has modded that system into her game (I am guessing she has because she is that good with modding). But for me, that is a heck of a lot of work and winging it is easier.

Regarding what to edit out and leave in - I would echo SubRosa to this extent. Plot and Character Development, IMHO, deserve all the detail the author deems necessary to convey them. So edit those with care. Right on the heels of that would be keeping the reader interested. This is an area where I have worried myself as well. For example, it took me 7 chapters of 1,300 to 1,600 words each to get from the chopping block in Helgen to Riverwood, and I was scared to death that I was dragging the story out. But to my relief, the readers enjoyed it as much as I enjoyed writing it, and complimented the level of detail.

Of course, everything I have stated depends on what you are writing. I have taken the easy route, because I am not a trained writer, by just doing a "game-play" narrative, with short detours into back story.Others here are far more accomplished at coming up with very creative stories that use the game as a setting only. But that's my two (insert coin type here) worth.

What would the maximum of words for a short story be, for those who care to answer? In your opinion, of course.

Money: I like the game’s gold Septim along with the slang terms “drake” and “duck” (for the dragon that appears on one side of the coin). To make that work I shrank the game’s big coin down to about the diameter and thickness of a fingernail for a single Septim. Then I added different sized coins for increasing denominations. For me using only gold coins anchors the story in Tamriel. I want the reader to embrace that they are in a different world (not Earth).

I also tossed the game’s prices for my own. I did not want to complicate money by splitting the Septim, so I made it worth less. For example an apple might cost four Septims. There are few things worth mentioning that cost less than one Septim. (Who buys one eighth of an apple?)

Keeping a scale is important for my own consistency, but I try to avoid mentioning specific prices in my stories. If something costs a month’s wages rather than writing the figure I’ll simply say that the merchant quoted a price equal to a month’s wages along with the characters’ reactions to show if the price is appropriate or not. That saves some head-scratching for the reader and gets straight to the point I’m trying to make in the story. I prefer to provide the context and then let the reader infer the rarity and relative value of things. (And that’s also what I prefer to read.)




Hollow, I think of a short story as one I can read in a single sitting. (Which happens only when my entire family is in another state.) Maybe around 7,000 words? I’m getting that number from the approximate length of three of my own updates since I know how long it takes me to read them.

The following is from Wikipedia -

Determining what exactly separates a short story from longer fictional formats is problematic. A classic definition of a short story is that one should be able to read it in one sitting, a point most notably made in Edgar Allan Poe's essay "Thomas Le Moineau (Le Moile)" (1846). Interpreting this standard nowadays is problematic, since the expected length of "one sitting" may now be briefer than it was in Poe's era. Other definitions place the maximum word count of the short story at anywhere from 1,000 to 9,000 words. In contemporary usage, the term short story most often refers to a work of fiction no longer than 20,000 words and no shorter than 1,000, or 5 to 20 pages. Stories of fewer than 1,000 words are sometimes referred to as "short short stories", or "flash fiction."

As a point of reference for the genre writer, the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America define short story length Nebula Awards for science fiction submission guidelines as having a word count of fewer than 7,500.

Kazaera- except for one venture into valuation of items in my current story, I have rather ignored money. That is a character-based choice, because Athlain is more or less a "rich kid." He never thinks about money because it has always been available.

For Adryn, I can see how she would have a very different perspective. Beyond that- the suggestions above are all good- find the one that fits your vision and style and adapt it as needed.

Pacing. Um- well, to be honest, I have not ever felt as if your story "dragged, lagged, flagged" or anything similar. To put on my old editorial hat, I would want to read everything all together (which is not a bad idea- makes note to self).

In this thread especially, you will see references to "character-driven stories". And yours is definitely one of those- most of the "action" takes place in Adryn's mind and or soul- in her life. In some of the best stories I have ever read, nothing much "happens"- externally- but within the character, there is tremendous movement.

If you feel strongly that you are "not getting on with" the plot you have in mind fast enough, consider which details are not needed. Which brings us to one of the strengths of fiction, the ability to "time-shift" at will.

How you indicate that you have done so is again a style choice- Adryn has a distinct personality and a strong voice- how would she say it?

"What happened over the next several days doesn't bear thinking about- so I don't."

"If you want to know what happened after that- too bad. It's none of your business."

Or you can indicate a "break" or "shift" with either a chapter transition (it that is appropriate) or using typograhy. I use a line of 5 or 6 asterisks centered to show a break- others do something similar with other non-alphanumeric characters.

Thanks everyone for the feedback! As treydog very astutely pointed out, I can't skim over money very well because it wouldn't be in-character for Adryn (who has had some hungry years in her past, never to mention a thief's eye for estimating value), so I need to think of something else. I find it reassuring that two writers whose stories I very much admire have chucked the in-game prices and substituted their own. I really prefer to base my writing on what we're given in-game, but it looks as though I might need to go that route to make things make economic sense! So it's good to know I wouldn't be the only one.

I've also already started using different currency items, because after spending too long reading stories where one septim was one hundred drakes it threw me out to reread my own /o\ and then I edited so that drake coins are copper and ten-drake coins are silver, with septims being gold. I might also end up adding in fractions of drakes, because I think if anything I've scaled the story so that one drake is more valuable than in-game!

Thanks also everyone for the advice about pacing! It's definitely given me something to chew on. I've struggled with "cut only what's plot-relevant" advice in the past, because I'm not really writing for the plot? I mean, there is a plot - it's the MQ! (With... major adjustments.) If I were writing for the plot, I probably wouldn't be writing. I'm starting to realise that the issue may be that I need to figure out what exactly I am writing for, and make sure the scenes advance that...

(There's also the issue that I don't actually always know which scenes are going to be plot-relevant in advance! As I get further into the story I find I do a lot of... leaving dangling threads in scenes that I can pick up later if necessary, not really unfinished plot so much as being able to use past events to trigger/tie into new plot. For instance, I wrote Adryn's epic flower-picking adventures for the hilarity, and later for the purpose of introducing Ervesa - but then that gives me a lot of characters, events, and new knowledge/skills on Adryn's part I can pick up again later. It turns some of these will seriously impact the next few chapters - but I didn't know that when I was writing them.)

And thanks treydog for the kind words about Adryn, which I find reassuring. It's sort of - on the one hand, there's things like transitions and timeskips and me ending up writing something I can't wait to get over with so I can get to the next fun scene, which is most likely a sign I need to figure out how to segue straight into said scene. (I do generally end up tossing the entire force of Adryn's personality at things like this to make them less boring.) On the other, there are scenes like Ajira and Adryn gossiping or doing alchemy which I very much enjoy writing and without which I don't think the story would be the same, but which fail the plot-relevance test. I find myself worried I should be cutting those... because if I should be, then not only should I be cutting scenes I really enjoy but it means my intuition is off. It sounds like you think not!