First like mALX said, if you are in doubt PM your material to a moderator.

There’s a reason the forum has a rating. Many readers who are drawn here simply don’t want to read graphic sex and violence, which includes graphic sexual violence. But you’re asking two different questions about themes and content (the part that’s actually in the text, not just inferred by the reader). Dark themes don’t have to be expressed as pornography any more than love stories do.

I think you need to be very careful what you depict in actual scenes when you tackle potentially offensive material. Ask yourself what you’re trying to accomplish with the character who rapes or eats children. There are lots of ways you can convey that information about them without giving a graphic description of the acts in your story. Small bones and baby shoes in a pile of vampire debris, for example. Trust your readers to figure out what that means.

The issue I see with having your main characters engage in potentially offensive behavior is that you have to provide an equally compelling reason why people should invest their reading time in them. I think of grey characters as being complicated in their own context, not just bad by my values but good by theirs. So for example for me to care about incestuous siblings they would need to be interesting in spite of the incest, not just because of it.

Grits has a good point. It doesn't have to be the focal point ofthe story, but if tthat's what you're aiming for, incestuous love stories, or whatever, then add a disclaimer in each chapter it happens in.

Very good points in this response. There was a fic on this forum whose main character was the guy with his mother's head in his house. Chapter one had his mental condition degrading to madness. By chapter two there was nothing redeeming enough in the story to hold my interest and I backed off reading any more of it. (and you know how open minded I am).

Like Grits said, the stronger the content the less you should describe it graphically or otherwise/the less detail you should use. Vera's bone crunching doesn't bother me (unless I'm eating), but if she was crunching children it might. Raven and Draken were interesting characters and if there was a point to their incest (for example to keep from killing while they mate they must mate one of their own kind, etc) - then I don't think it would be as offensive as it might if they were just doing it out of lust.

(Example: In the movie "Cat People" - whenever the cat people mated they would transform into leopards and had to kill to turn back to humans. The only ones they could mate without transforming were their own kind - which weren't all that easy to find. So many of them became incestuous).

If your characters are chomping babies/raping/incestuous/etc - I don't call this gray areas. These are black areas.

There is a spectrum here that the extreme ends (like you were describing) can't be called gray, Baby chomping/rape/and incest without cause = these are at the extreme end of the spectrum. These are black. To gray up the character you would have to show some redeeming value to them imho. (have them counter that black with a few good qualities that make the reader think - he can't be all that bad if he does X) type thing.




This post has been edited by mALX: Sep 13 2013, 02:15 PM

Thanks, Grits! Though I think I may not have beem clear. Certain of my characters will engage in offensive behavior, but of course, I always try to provide a compelling reason to do so, if the offensive in this contect includes murder. Rape is not and cannot be justified. The question itself wasn't around my protagonists but rather, the opposite. I even made a post about it last night.

Don't worry. I know how to treat my main folks.



Thanks, too, mALX. I'll make it clear that none of my protagonists will be involved in raping at all. The reason I asked is because I have a few characters, prisoners and barbarians, who will rape and pillage and murder for no justified reason. I mentioned one such character in the "Rate Your Villains" thread and i specifically mentioned he's not a character that can be sympathized with. He's not even a protagonist, which is the reason why I won't bother to try and make an excuse as to why raping women and young girls is okay.

My lycanthropic and disease-altered characters are grey. They both have "good" qualities and "bad" qualities. I try to make them as human as possible despite what else happens. Can't say the same for my vampiric characters.

But the main issue here that I needed help was the content being posted, not so much of my characters engaging in such actions(frankly, I never, ever, planned for Lycus or Vera to go around raping people. Ever). The idea was for the main antagonists and general barbarians and outlaws and murderers like our real world history and present day. That was my question, only. How much is too much? Not "Will my characters be hated for this?"

Terribly sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

Actually, I didn't picture either Vera or Kraven doing any of those things, but the baby eating - I know Draken and Raven are prone to it already and you have handled those scenes perfectly - describing her lust for the taste without any examples of her actually doing it (just skulking outside a window). The message was clear to the reader, we all knew what Raven was doing outside that window; but no one was giving the image of a baby crying while Raven attacks - you handled it extremely well.

Your vampire seduction scenes were also handled extremely well. Look to those strong scenes you yourself have written for guidence - there wasn't too much detail, just enough that we knew what was happening and our imaginations filled in the details. You took us into Draken's mind rather than his actions (but we all knew what his actions were at that moment).


As you know, Malan had a history of raping virgins in my story. It was never detailed on even one of those young girls; and Malan erased their memories of the event so they had no trauma (but we know it still happened).

There is one scene that is described (the scene where Malan takes Evangeline without her knowledge and permission) - where we learn he puts them under spell so they more or less sleep through it (like the Kayla and Draken scene in the RP).

Afterward Malan healed the wound/erased her memory. (by inference that scene lets the reader know how he was actually taking all those virgins, putting them under spell and erasing their minds of the event)


The only description of how he took those other virgins is given in his scene where he takes Maxical's virginity; (except Malan has Maxical's permission in that instance, and it is seen through her eyes only).

But in that same scene with Maxical we also learn he was using their virgin blood as a bait for vampire prisoners to get them to swear their souls away; another thing he was doing with those virgin girls that no one knew about.

The inference is that everything Maxical went through with Malan is what all those other virgins went through - but it was only described the one time when it happened to Maxical (where he had permission to be there).


The reason I did it that way - I didn't want to glorify or sexualize the act of rape (1); and (2) describing the virgin blood tease on prisoners - imho the number of times descriptions and details are given for any incidents that are gory/controversial/shocking/sexual/etc is once. Beyond that - ad nauseum - dragging the reader through the details over and over again - the impact is lost and the value/merit of it feels overtold to the reader.


Whenever you are considering iffy material at all, run it by a mod first. If it is borderline, they will usually tell you to post it (but be ready to remove it if there is a complaint).

You're always welcome to pm me if you're in doubt! I'm certainly old enough to be able to judge, I promise! It has been done before, IThere was this guy who pm-ed me quite a lot about his story...and it was solved satisfactory for both parties!

The whole "How dark is too dark" and related issues thing is something that I have run up against on numerous occasions, where I've needed to fairly carefully go over what I've written before posting.
Niamh's world is a very dark one and she is what/who she is - if you catch my drift. I do write in a gritty and often explicit way and I've never tried to hide that.

That said, it is important to be aware of what you are posting and where and also to write in such a way that you strike a balance between a desire to be "real" and to push the envelope and the audience's ability to absorb what you've written and still continue to want to read it.
Do I achieve that? To be honest I have no idea but I have enough feedback from different places to know I must be doing something right!

I have found that there are things that I can post on this site that I would not feel that I could get away with posting on the Other Site, but that said, I have a blog as well so anything that would not fit on either basically goes on there with a link on the forum side so people have a choice.
An upcoming section I have on the boil will have 2 versions one for here and another, containing a slightly more "gritty" set of descriptions, on the blog - that's not because its got anything sexually explicit in it or what have you but simply because I don't feel that some aspects of it are appropriate for a forum with this rating.
(Like the difference between a 15 rated movie and the director's cut!)

I guess it comes down to the fact that I would rather put something on here that was tempered and give people the option to read the unexpurgated version elsewhere should they wish than exercise my natural inclination to just chuck everything down regardless and have the post removed!
After all, I may prefer to write mature fiction for adults, but this isn't a mature-rated forum so one has to make concessions...

Anyway, that's my 10 pence!

Honestly, so do I!...so do I!

Me, too!

Me three...er, four!

Question for all you writers. What is your limit on character perspectives in a single story? For example, I currently have five in a single story, but I do plan on adding one more. Is six character perspectives too much? I know some people pulled it off, though they were famous writers. To get the story across, it is something I wanted to do but I want to know your opinions.

That's a good question. At first, I was going to say "As many as you want". I thought of Stephen King's The Stand, which told the story of many different people from across the nation passing through many different adventures, that eventually led them all to the same place. Then I looked at your question more literally. Different character perspectives would imply that you would be writing in first person for each character. That would certainly be more challenging. Instead of simply narrating, you would be "living" the events through the eyes of each character. This could get confusing to the reader.

All of that said, I guess there is no real limit to the amount of characters, as long as a character switch is appropriately prefaced so the the reader doesn't become lost. I certainly would not try to change the perspective between characters in the same chapter.

I don't know if that helps, but that would be my two Septims worth...

I’m going to answer as a reader, since I’m sure there are rules about these things that I haven’t learned yet.

I would say keep it within a single character per post if you can, and have a good reason to switch between perspectives. For example in SubRosa’s Seven she had one POV character knocked unconscious in the middle of a fight, then picked up with a different POV character. The jolt of switching POV characters worked beautifully to reflect the action in the story. Otherwise just make sure you’ve given the reader enough time to get to know a new POV character from the inside before you switch again.

I assume you’re talking about using third person rather than first. As a reader I would find switching between different characters’ first-person perspectives very jarring. Also with having a few days between posts here rather than a book where you read long sections at once I think you can get away with more frequent switches. It’s really up to you what you want to do with your writing.

As a reader I much prefer different third-person limited views like you’re suggesting over a third-person omniscient approach. I want to know about the characters more than about what happens, and staying within a character’s viewpoint gets that across.

So to answer the question I’m saying I don’t think there’s a number limit so much as an approach that makes the transitions work for the reader.



edit: dreadful spelling

This post has been edited by Grits: Jan 18 2014, 11:10 PM

I would generally urge limiting the perspective to no more than one character in a given episode.

Readers don't have to know everything, and limiting the number of perspectives is a simple, easy and extremely effective method of keeping what the reader knows to the same as the primary character. Built-in mystery, if you will.

If you hop among several perspectives, you might as well consider the omniscient narrator approach.

I've never found it necessary to change perspectives from my primary character - ever. In fact, I relish the challenges and limitations that is the price for maintaining a full-on intimate perspective from one character - complete with the same gaps in knowledge that they have. That said, I readily admit there are writers who I have seen change perspectives to excellent effect. But these writers also do so sparringly and, when they do so, it is for a full scene.

SubRosa has said that if you are going to change perspective, it will jar the reader - so make darn sure that what you have to present from the new perspective is both necessary and significant enough to warrant the price. Good advice I think.

Edit: In rereading my comments here, I don't mean to sound discouraging. I am reminded that the reason we all write here is to have fun. While I do harbor strong feelings about what is best for my own writing, DE, I assure you (and others) that when I read, my primary interest is in trying to ferret out what the writer is trying to accomplish, then support their objectives. It is worth stating and remembering that this is all hobby/fanfic, and having fun is job one.

This post has been edited by Acadian: Jan 19 2014, 01:12 AM

I am pretty much with everyone else. I prefer keeping it to one, but sometimes that is not possible, especially when dealing with stories whose focus is on a big event. For example in Seven I have tried to keep the pov with Aela wherever possible. But there have been a few times where she was not around to witness events, yet I wanted the reader to see those things. So I had to change povs.

As others have said, changing povs can be difficult for the reader. So make sure it is worth it when you do. Be sure that you are showing them something that matters. Also try to make sure that being right there in the moment carries some emotional weight to it. If it does not, then you might just as well have a minor character relate it to your main character after the fact: "Oh by the way, I found this thing by the whatchamacallit, by the stuff." is not worth a pov change. But "I found this whatchamacallit and was attacked by a Sith Lord and barely made it out of there alive." is definitely worth changing pov for.

Besides making sure the pov change happens in a new scene, try to work things into the narrative that make it clear who the new pov character is right off the bat. Making the first word be their name is a great start. I began a scene from Do'Sakhar's pov with the following:

Do'Sakhar took a break from planting punji stakes in the ditch surrounding the hamlet. He climbed the dirt wall of the dry moat on hands and feet, frequently slipping in the loose soil. But once he had reached the top, the Khajiit easily scampered over the crenellated wall.

So everyone would know right off the bat who the new pov character was.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Jan 19 2014, 02:44 AM

Thanks everyone for the response. I actually meant different characters and not just the perspective of a main character. For example, one character has their own chapter in their point of view. That's what I truly meant but I still understand the concern and opinions of switching between third person and second person. As Grits said, it can be jarring. I agree, if it is abused often.

The narrative change can be after a while, but I guess the writer has to make it pay off once the readers gets to see the character's first realization of what he's gotten himself into. My plan with the first person narrative is to change things a bit. Key parts it will change to second-person perspective, and makes both the action and non-action events highly psychological(unlike my previous works). I use the second-person narrative when describing the main character's emotions ("The first light of the moon gives you pain" "Now you realize you are so far less now than what you were, but yet so much more, you are as a painter gone blind, a bard gone mute, an acrobatic gone lame") and when introducing key figures with simple declarative statements ("This is Shavaash", "This is how it feels to be Kraven Desselius."

From other sources and help, I was told that these literary devices would work better at key points in the story. But ultimately my main concern here was the use of different characters in a single story, not so much as a single episode, which are often devoted to a single individual at each given moment.





Thanks! I see! That was my main concern here. I want plenty of things to remain a mystery in my story, and I guess limiting characters will do just nicely.

This post has been edited by Darkness Eternal: Jan 22 2014, 10:19 PM

Okay, so maybe y'all can help with this. I seem to have five major plot points in my head and issues with how to implement them. They all benefit and are relevant to the story.

My problem is, is sometimes I'll have an entire chapter done, and go "Oh man, THIS is much better!" But it doesn't explain a lot of the stuff that goes on, and because I just thought about it, it's never mentioned anywhere else in the story so it will seem like it's coming out from left field.

My thought is to either put it in anyways and just explain it later, or erase the whole chapter and work it in via flashbacks or a different POV. And I'm sort of tired being everywhere all at once, but the planning of this final chapter is KILLING ME. I really honestly just want to WRITE, and for a bit I did, but then I went off on a tangent and now the plot is really skewed.

And before you suggest it, I canNOT keep tabs on every detail of the story. I can't manage my own life, much less micromanage the lives of my characters. Once I get my book started, I'll have files on each character and such but as for my fanfic, I can't dedicate my time to that quite yet.

How can I have a MODERATE amount of control on what I put in my story? Do you ever just take something and stick it in later, or use it in a different story?

My first thought is what you do not want to hear. Dedicate more time to working on your outline of plot points. It is true that this is just a fan fiction, just hobby writing. But this is the place to practice your writing and form good habits for later when you are doing it for a living.

None of this means you have to plan out every little detail of everything that happens in the story, or every event in every character's history. It just means have a clear map of where you are going. You can always leave room to adapt and add new ideas that come to you a year or more after you made your outline. I often find that once I am actually writing a chapter, things come to me that I never thought of while I worked on the outline. For example, Ungarion and Do'Sakhar constantly verbally sniping at one another in Seven was never part of the plan. It just came out that way in my first draft of their initial meeting. Because of that my outlines are very general, only covering the major plot points that have to happen in order to get the story from Point A to Point B.

It is hard to give any specific advice without knowing the specifics of what you are working on (which obviously you do not want to spill before the story is in pixels!). So just speaking in generalities:

Feel free to use the edit button and go back and change things in your fan fic. Just keep them small things that do not completely change the story. It was not until about halfway through the TF that I decided that Teresa learned her Healing and Flare spells from Raminus Polus. It happened in a chapter I wrote that was mostly a flashback to how Teresa met Methredhel. Events in the flashback showed me that Raminus was the obvious guy to have been her first teacher. So after writing that, I went back to a few early chapters from a year before and edited that little factoid in. I also put a little note in the post telling the readers I had done that to keep it consistent. So it is nothing that changes the actual story, just a little tidbit that adds a more depth.

I also advise you to make use of flashbacks! They are an excellent way to conveying small things that are relevant to current events. Especially things that do not warrant an entire chapter of their own placed in chronological order. Haute makes excellent use of flashbacks in Old Habits Die Hard to gradually reveal the background and history of her protagonist. Just as I did in my flashback with Methredhel and Teresa to give their relationship more depth. Stories do not have be sequential. Jump around as much as you like.

Also, don't be afraid to turn your final chapter into two or three final chapters. You don't have to squeeze it all into one. Take your time, show us as much of the story as you feel deserves to be told. If that means writing five more chapters go ahead. Sometimes a story can have a snowball effect, picking up more material as it goes. That is a good thing IMHO, as it means your creative juices are flowing.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Jan 28 2014, 05:28 PM

The reason I said no micromanaging is because I feel like it's too much time into a story that I don't have. I don't want to spend six months on the final chapter (And it's been about two already) but the general plot thing is a good idea. Thanks, Sub :]

Okay, so I have a question, and this seems to be the place to ask, so here goes:

So I'm writing about my current Oblivion character, as much because I like writing as anything else. It's taken the format of a journal, which the character is keeping. The problems I'm having are twofold:

1) It seems it's either going to result in extraordinarily lengthy entries, or I'm going to have to find a way to break them up. For instance after arriving in Chorrol he went straight for the recommendation quest, so between the journey, the city, and the quest it seems more than a person would write in one sitting.

2) There seems to be a degree of focus on conversation, which I don't really know how to reconcile with the idea of it being a journal. Not really sure how to work this.


I'd like to eventually start posting it as a fanfic, but I wanted to make sure I was comfortable with everything before I start posting anything. I'm now rather glad I did. So yeah, any advice on these would be greatly appreciated.