Could everybody discussing Revan please use spoiler tags? I'm not sure everyone here has played KOTOR yet, and it's such a great game we shouldn't throw around these spoilers carelessly

KOTOR...That's one area I have absolutely no idea about...I read all the spoilers...I have no idea what it's all about anyways... ...

I very much enjoyed the portrayal of Sidious in the Revenge of The Sith novel...It really does make him so cool...And it makes Anakin's descent seem more logical, in a way...

My ideal is Jedi, all the way...But with this old anger of mine?...Nope...More than likely be a Sith lackey... ...

This post has been edited by McBadgere: May 24 2014, 03:20 PM

Well the thing with Darth Maul was that he was a weapon, nothing more, nothing less. In one of the books it's mentioned that Sidious confessed to Tyranus that he actually made a mistake with the training of Maul, so it's not simple overconfidence that let him down.







I don't even think perspective comes into the Sith opinion of the Jedi. I think it's about indoctrination. Due the nature of the power of the darkside, training apprentices who are indifferent to the Jedi isn't going to be nearly effective as training them to hate the Jedi. And considering that by the time they reach Sidious' era, the Sith have spent a thousand years miring the Republic, and by extension the Jedi, in corruption, they can't really point the finger at them.

Personally I can't see the Sith as anything but evil, not because of their use of the darkside, but simply through their actions. Considering the amount of pain and suffering they caused in the thousand years they spent to destroy the Jedi, they really can't be considered anything else.

And even before that, they still come out as evil.

And while the Jedi might use the lightside of the force, in terms of morality they are most definitely gray. For the most part at least. There are some exceptions, but they are admittedly few and far between.

This post has been edited by Callidus Thorn: May 24 2014, 06:17 PM

When you look at it, Maul was a weapon and while overconfidence did play part on it(Sidious chided him once about it), it was due to Sidious' lack of proper training as you said but it hardly changes Maul's talent. As Dooku put it"he was an animal, a skilled animal, but a beast nonetheless." When you look into it, Maul was used for a number of things to covertly further the Sith agenda, including killing Jedi, a large crime syndicate, etc. He was a weapon, yes. But he was also an apprentice, for he learned the ways of the Sith at Sidious' feet.

Dooku/Darth Tyranus was also a weapon. He was used and prized for his political astuteness and his old title of count and his resources, as well as his Jedi training which Sidious enjoyed cause it would mean he wouldn't have to train someone from the start, as he didn't have enough time when his plan was put into motion. Still, Tyranus was used for everything. He helped finance the Clone Wars with his own money to further the Sith agenda, and I believe these were his last thoughts on the matter too . . . how he had been used and lied to all these years by Sidious who used him more as a tool than an apprentice.

Dooku thought he was going to be helping build an Empire of force-users composed of turned Jedi and skilled assassins in his Empire of Man and that Anakin would turn to the Dark Side and become a general in that army after Dooku surrendered himself purposely after killing Obi-Wan. Instead of his plans going smoothly, Sidious actually goaded Anakin into overpowering and killing Dooku, prompting the old man to figure out he was just fuel for Anakin's fire. That he would be Anakin's first cold-blooded execution(I'd count those animals we call Sand-people or Tusken raiders but that's a different story altogether).

Darth Vader was promised much, too. He was Sidious' prize weapon during the end of the Clone Wars after Dooku. Sidious used his newfound thirst for blood useful and set him out to assassinate the Jedi in the Temple and the Separatist Council, and if he crosses paths with Obi-Wan, him as well. After the events of Mustafar, Sidious sought to replace Vader with Galen Merek/Starkiller as a much more useful tool. Since it may not be canon any longer, we also have to consider Sidious doing something similar with Luke in Return of the Jedi.

Where am I going with this? I just think all of Sidious' apprentices were used more as his own little murderous weapon box, he just liked each of them for their separate qualities and when something better came along, he would toss them aside.

I won't get into Revan that much because I honestly never got too deep in the story to make my own well-judged conclusions, so I humble say I sort of suck in that area of Revan.



Indoctrination is a strong word I think. Indoctrination would be taking a child from their parents because of their force-sensitivity, taking them to a temple were they would train day in day out, learn to eradicate their natural emotions that make them human(or humanoid); fear, anger, hate, love . . . and become emotionless sword-wielding zealots. Jedi pluck young children for their training for the sole purpose of them not being "too old". They would be easier to train, easier to mold, and easier to use.

Sidious believed himself a savior of the galaxy after he wiped out most of the Jedi. Darth Vader believed he was bringing peace and order to the galaxy, and when he didn't get his chance to kill Sidious, he offered his son a chance to join him to do the same. Bring order to the galaxy. Darth Tyranus believed the Republic was corrupt. He's always believed so, and I can pull out a few quotes by them in the books. They do have a perspective on the matter that is a little higher than simple indoctrination/mindless brainwash. We see time and time again each Sith have their own ways of understanding the Dark Side but they all mirror in their hatred for the Jedi and their ways.

And all this from a Saturday morning kids adventure film...

Sometimes, I can absolutely side with Mirocu in the whole film v E.U. thing... ...

I genuinely have nothing but respect for those that follow and, most importantly, remember the lore behind stuff...

But sometimes, I feel that it (the Lore) goes too far into some stuff...

This post has been edited by McBadgere: May 24 2014, 08:26 PM

As I recall, Sidious' mistake that he admitted too was making Maul too full of rage. I suspect that contributed more to his death than overconfidence. Which is what made him only a weapon. From Sidious' perspective he was a failure.



I wouldn't call Dooku a weapon, more a tool. He served as a visible leader for the Confederacy, and being a former Jedi helped set up the idea that the whole war was perpetuated by the Jedi. Being wealthy made him more useful, as did the fact that Dooku sought Sidious out.

Not sure about the whole Empire of force users thing though, Dooku was aware of the Rule of Two, and the reasons behind it. Where does it cover that part?



And I don't think Vader was meant to be a weapon either, he only became one because he wasn't suited to anything else after Mustafar. Between the whole chosen one thing and the Plagueis ability that Sidious was chasing, I'd expect that to be Sidious' chief use for Vader.

Maul was a failure, Dooku was a tool, but only Vader was truly suited to be his apprentice, prior to the events of Mustafar. And Luke would gave served as Vader's replacement. And point of interest: Considering how Return of the Jedi ended, and that turning Luke to the darkside was Vader's idea, not the Emperor's, I think it's safe to say that Vader's motivation was sparing Luke, not bringing peace and order to the galaxy.

I'm going to skip over the everything past this point, because when arguing over ideology it can get real messy. And to be frank, considering my opinion of the Sith, I've actually had to scrap several replies simply because they came far too close to getting personal.

DE, I was always under the impression that the Master/Apprentice relationship you described was exactly how it always worked with every Sith Lord from the beginning. The Master used their Apprentice(s) as a tool, and carefully watched to insure they did not become too powerful. When they came near that point, they killed them off and replaced them with someone else. While at the same time the Apprentice was always planning on one day killing the boss and taking over. It was always a lethal game of chess between the two. A stark contrast to the Jedi and their Padawans.

Tools or weapons . . . I meant to say they were all Sidious' pawns in the end, including Vader post-Mustafar.

You're right on Dooku and the reason Sidious chose him. He had all the resources. Sidious couldn't go wrong with a man Dooku's age who was respected in the Jedi Order and out of it.

On the Empire thing, he's an excerpt from the novel.

I do recall in the books that Vader did want to turn Luke on the Dark Side to overthrow the Emperor. It was his plan since Revenge of the Sith. I did find it interesting how Anakin was so close to Palpatine and had a son-father relationship and upon turning Sith all he wanted to do was kill the man after he had what he needed.

Vader in the end was Sidious' own pawn, too, wouldn't you agree? Their relationship sort of differs from that Bane had with Zannah and so on so forth. I think Sidious was entirely selfish here, not thinking on the Sith agenda as his Sith predecessors. Why should he anyway? He became the Emperor of the galaxy and his enemies were wiped out. Still, I do believe he could've done much more.

Hmm, getting too personal? You mean getting into a personal argument directed at me or just how you feel about the fictional Sith Order? Don't be afraid to share your thoughts and use your anger . . . it gives you focus. Makes you stronger



This is true for the older generations of Sith. But the master/apprentice relationship was one that had both understanding their own fates. What Sidious did different was that he lied to his apprentices about the ultimate goal, I suppose. At least he did so to Dooku. Darth Bane told his apprentice from day 1 that she would have to kill him when she's ready and take over to continue the Sith line. I don't think Sidious ever bred that sort of idea to his apprentices(I could be wrong) but he promised Dooku a Sith Empire, and Darth Vader a wife saved from certain death. Never once did he lure them as Bane and Zannah did with the core doctrines of the Sith that said that one of them would have to die so another could take over.

Again, things changed because they were much closer to the fall of the Jedi that their ultimate motives simply went beyond the Rule of Two. The whole point of the Rule of Two was to keep the Sith Order from infighting and becoming weak and of course resulting in their own annihilation by the Jedi. It also served to slowly go through time unseen while machinating the Grand Plan(or the Sith Imperative) which is the death of the Republic and the jedi. When the Sith revealed themselves to still exist and when the Jedi and the Republic fell, I suppose their plans sort of shifted. Their goals became different.

It really depended on each individual Sith Lord. Along Bane's Order of Sith each Sith tried to change the rules a bit. Namely Darth Plagueis wanted Sidious to rule while he was the manipulator. Sidious was to be the public face and he was to hide behind the scenes and find eternal life. He believed the Rule of Two had passed its time since the end of the Jedi and the Republic drew near, and he wanted a master/apprentice relationship with Sidious that wasn't lethal which is exactly the opposite of how it was meant to be. In the end Sidious betrayed him while he drank wine and killed him in his sleep(both literal and metaphorical I suppose).

Dooku never intended to kill Sidious. Maul didn't either until he came back 13 years later and saw things went in motion without him. Darth Vader, on the other hand, wanted to kill Sidious as soon as he ensured Padme's safety. Even when he was Anakin he only protected Sidious from Mace Windu's wrath because he wanted her alive, not out of any friendship they previously had. "You can't. He must stand trial. I need him!"

This post has been edited by Darkness Eternal: May 24 2014, 10:31 PM

I swear when I get my hands on Disney . . . .

First 1313, a rated M Star Wars game where we play as Boba Fett in a spiritual successor to Star Wars: Bounty Hunter starring Jango Fett(that game made him a much more sympathetic character than we saw in the films).

And now this. The concept art had me drooling.



Oh . . . my . . . rage!


This post has been edited by Darkness Eternal: May 24 2014, 11:32 PM

Disney are gonna do awesome stuff with SW.

I have all my trust in Disney, so what if they canceled 2 games. Great ideas for games get scrapped all the time.

The word Disney has me on edge. They cancel a rated M Star Wars game, and then they cancel one where a Sith Lord is the main character.

I don't have my trust in Disney yet. Instead of pinball Star Wars or Angry Bird Star Wars . . . they should give us something a bit more mature and not childish and kiddy like half of their stuff. My only faith is in the New Battlefront, but I'm sure Disney will allow developers to make SW games if we play as some ultimate Jedi hero saving the galaxy or some good-hearted smuggler smuggling food for children in the Outer Rim territories . . . or better yet, a take-care-of-your Bantha game!

WOAH WOAH WOAH!

PINBALL STAR WARS WAS GREAT!

Also Angry Birds Star Wars was before Disney, I heard something about only developing the mobile casual games or something. They can make them both you know.

Disney have done so much good in the past few years that I can't not have faith in them.

Time will tell, Imp. Time will tell.

I'm still wanting my gritty, dark and rated M Star Wars game with interesting characters. The tv show Star Wars: Rebels kind of hints what they want Star Wars to be.

To be honest, I think that Disney are the only Empire (see what I did there?... ) that are strong enough to wrestle Star Wars back to what it was and possibly should always have been...

We're watching the films...And yes, there's the undertones that could be fleshed out...Yoda and Obi-Wan vs The Emperor and Vader etc...All that, yes, I agree...

But taking the films at face value, it's still good vs evil...And adventure sci-fi at its finest...

It should never have been about M rated games and dark novels and all the rest of it...That's just the kids that watched it years ago now being grown up and wanting to inject reality into it...

Why?...It's still escapism...

This is still just my opinion...One which will no doubt be laughed at for being naive...I don't care...

I think Lucas giving it to Disney is the best thing that could have happened to the Star Wars franchise...Not only does it give other storytellers that aren't George Lucas the chance to give their vision to the place, but it ensures that we can all get that sense of wonder back without having to read through obscure lore that really doesn't interest more than a few kids...And by that I mean kids won't be interested in the lore...Not the other thing...

This post has been edited by McBadgere: May 26 2014, 06:50 AM

A few points:

Disney won't be able to change a thing where Star Wars is concerned. Disney owns Lucasfilm, but Lucas still owns Star Wars. And Lucas is now the second biggest shareholder in Disney, he's still going to be calling the shots. I'd call Lucas a bigger threat to Star Wars than anyone or anything else.

As for the EU, Lucas ignored it with the prequels, and the result was tragic. We got Jar-Jar Binks and flying R2-D2,who at some point lost both his memory of the prequel events and the ability to fly. And Obi Wan lost his memory of R2-D2, who was more Anakin's friend than droid, and 3P0, a droid Anakin built, right there on Tatooine. We got plotlines that were painfully obvious. We got villains lacking depth, who were just evil for the sake of being evil. And we're left with the baffling question of: If the Republic itself didn't have an army, then why was the Trade Federation allowed to build battle droids?

The problem with these films is that they're kids films. Star Wars could be watched by kids, but it could still take itself seriously(with the possible exception of the Ewoks). But everything I mentioned above, the reliance on gimmick characters, the inability to keep continuity with the original films, and of course the cringeworthy attempt at romance between Padme and Anakin, stops them being great films like the original trilogy were.

Now I'll grant you that the EU has gone too far. Personally by the time the New Jedi Order series starts I figure that they're now just adding things to keep it going, rather than working off what the original films gave them. But up that point it added a depth that wasn't in the films. It turned the conflict between the Rebellion and the Empire into an actual war that extended beyond Luke Skywalker and the others. It turned the Sith vs Jedi aspect into an ancient feud that has flared up time and again, with the Republic being caught in the middle of it.

Up to a point, the EU made the Star Wars universe, far more than the films did.

No...



From what I read at the time, George is creative advisor only. The vision of the SW universe is in other peoples' hands now...Sounds like more of a Stan Lee gig now...

And, while I don't really understand the whole Shareholder thing, I kind of assumed that as long as he continues to make money off the films - as he has been doing for how long now? - he has no actual power over them or Disney as an organisation...

But again, that's just my ignorance showing itself...



Damn George and making the films he set out to make...Damn him!...

The original Star Wars had its dodgy moments, as did Jedi...No less than the prequels did...My kids keep proving that...

They enjoyed Empire, but they still say they enjoy the prequels more...

My daughter loves Jar-Jar...People can't just keep saying he's a crap character, 'cause obviously he did his job for the kids...

George Lucas did a herp derp when he tried to get philosophical in the third movie by putting in "There are Heroes on Both Sides".

Revenge of the Sith was the best "kids" movie ever. All Star Wars movies should be like it.

Learn from it, Disney!

I hope this means we're not going to see him popping up in every Star Wars film Disney make

Though I sincerely doubt Lucas has no say in what's done with the Star Wars franchise from now on.



Technically the films he originally set out to make were 4 through 9, but the latter three were abandoned for financial reasons.

And the thing about the original trilogy is that while they were suitable for kids, they weren't childish(except for the Ewoks). Take our recent discussion; where you said the original trilogy was black and white, and I pointed out that the Jedi don't really fit into that. That's not in there for kids, that's not something thrown in to stop them being dismissed as kids films, that's a theme worked into the plot from the first film onwards.



When a crucial part of the plot, Palpatine seizing power, comes down to the stupidity of a character added solely for kids, one that no one with a brainstem would place in a position of authority, it compromises the integrity of the narrative. Palpatine gained power over the Senate by manipulating Jar-Jar, a character everyone knows to be the single most stupid entity in the Star Wars universe. Hel, we get that hammered in from his first appearance in the TPM. It's pretty much the equivalent of an Ewok commanding the Rebel Fleet at Endor. You don't know what he's doing there, why he's been given that authority, and yet somehow he still has it, because the Ewoks are there for the kids. But it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

The prequel trilogy would have been better recieved if they'd actually made a real effort to tie them into the original films, and if they'd actually taken the films seriously. Continuity errors, one-dimensional characters, most notably villains, the fight to arrest Sidious looks like they didn't get to finish practising it, the over-reliance on R2-D2. If they'd been better written and better made, there'd be a lot less criticism.

This post has been edited by Callidus Thorn: May 26 2014, 02:56 PM

I would like to see Star Wars again at some point. Maybe come fall....?


I just love how it all starts up with Vader boarding the rebellion ship and not some other way at all whatsoever

The director of Looper will direct the last 2 Star Wars movies.

I've not seen Looper but I heard good things.