Having met Nazeem, I am sure Mother Teresa would say the same thing!

Yeah, I was impressed in the beginning of the Companions quest when they sent you in with Farkas and he could actually fight; you did not have to keep him alive like you were the only one capable when you just joined. (and I really thought I was going to love that questline when they held that awesome ceremony). I really did like that you were sent out with others who could actually stand up for themselves.

That was one of the few things that did bother me in Oblivion - in both the Fighters and Mages guilds you were immediately the member responsible for the lives of teammates and the only one capable of handling any tasks. Meanwhile everyone else just hung around the guilds constantly while you worked.

But in Skyrim it didn't take long to realize that unless they were on a mission with you, they never left; which kind of made it feel less realistic. I do think they did a better job of sending them out than was done in Oblivion though; and in making them believable as a fighting guild because they actually could fight well.


But along these lines - one thing that happened in Fallout 3 really struck me as solid gold; that I wish I saw more in these guilds in TES games:

In Fallout 3 the last time I played; I was out in the Wasteland and suddenly saw a guy fighting a Deathclaw. Before I could step up and help, the guy killed the Deathclaw and then berated me for not helping him. It was one of the guys from Reilly's Rangers; he handed me some ammo and said Reilly was worried I might need ammo because I hadn't checked in for a while. She sent him to find me and see if I needed help.

Now to me, that really felt like being part of a team. And to actually follow up after the quest was competed - and outside the Ranger Compound - that just floored me. To me, that was one of the amazingly great things about Fallout 3.

It would be awesome to see little touches like that added to the game; or to have other guild members randomly spawn near where you are so you come across them fighting and can step in and help them, etc. I mean, they are essential, so it couldn't hurt to just see them out doing something every now and then.

Well the Companions do actually get out and about. You normally first meet them at the farm on the way to Whiterun, where they kill a giant just before you can do anything to help. Then you'll sometimes meet a group out hunting, and I've often had them intercept a Sabre Cat that wanted to kill my character.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0xIkDXZpwI








I knew about the giant incident because that is how I originally learned about the Companions, but - never have run across them other than that out in the field or had them come to my aid. That is awesome!

They're not intentionally coming to the character's aid, just hunting the same cat that was attacking.

See "Companions Hunting" on this page. where it's implied that you help them instead.

Loved the exploding chickens!






Strictly speaking this is true, but it only happens before Take Up Arms, which begins the second you first talk to Kodlak (meaning at a time when you aren't yet a member and don't even know the Companions), or after Glory of the Dead, when you are the Harbinger and you can get most of them to come out and adventure with you as a follower. That can turn out to be a very long gap depending on how you play. I'd like to see them out completing contracts at the same time that I'm completing them. I'd also like to see them fail at completing a contract that I am then sent out to complete for them. That would go a long way toward explaining how I can come through the door and get initiated into the circle after one radiant quest and one fetch quest.

A lot of good opinions and viewpoints here.

My new opinion (after dwelling on this subject on and off today) is that Bethesda added the shopkeeper bullying because they were sick of hearing "generic". You know ... that's one of the huge complaints about TES 4: "generic" this, "generic" that. The dungeons are generic, the questlines are generic, the landscape is generic, etc. So they listened to this, and decided to throw some twists in certain questlines, to make them not so .. well you know, the "G" word.

Still bugs me, the shopkeeper-bullying bit, and it bugged The Mighty Khahkhayre, my one character who decided to see what the Ratway is all about. And HE was a A-hole, a literal doochebag, my rudest character ever. So if it bugged him wow...

That being said, I've got a couple good friends who swear TG is one of the better questlines in Skyrim, once we get past the shopkeeper-bullying part, and so one of these days I'm going to slog through it. My character idea (Bjorn Tubewyyld) is going to be sort of like a Hell's Angel, come to life in Skyrim. Hell's Angels do have sort of a code of honor, which means they won't just go beating up innocents, so Bjorn will actually be worse than a Hell's Angel.

I'll let you all know how things transpire, whenever I decide to do TG.

I love that, I'll give Bethesda kudos for that! Thanks for telling me about it, I didn't know!














I'll really be interested in hearing about how the questline plays out, if you are ever able to get down to some genuine important thievery or if the whole questline is all about doing swarmy things for Mavis Black Briar till she makes you head of the guild.

That's what makes the TG stand out. The first half, you're working for Maven, and then you find out the truth, and the second half is working against her. And then it stops without resolution, with Maven still there and the Guild in limbo. Thievery is a background thing, and it's all about the Maven/Mercer/Karliah story, in which Mercer does all the actual stealing! You're not even Guildmaster at that point, if you haven't done enough radiant quests by that time.

You're either going to love how different that is, or hate it for the same reasons.

This post has been edited by ghastley: Oct 5 2015, 10:38 PM

Roughing up shopkeepers aside, one of my biggest gripes against the TG questline in Skyrim is that there is no sneaking required. The questline is a bunch of dungeon crawls. In some you can sneak around people in places. But you still end up having to fight enemies in other areas of the same dungeon. In the end you saddled with NPCs who are just so inept at stealth that they insure that you have to fight it out in every room. It is a stark contrast to Oblivion, where you were often given strict orders by the Grey Fox that no killing is allowed in many missions. Forcing you to use stealth instead.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Oct 5 2015, 10:53 PM

All that could have been misc quests for Riften itself instead of usurping the Thieves Guild questline for it, since it shoves what the guild is supposed to be all about (thievery) into the background.








Agreed 100%.

Well, in the Oblivion quest line you were supposed to think you were doing regular guild work until it turns out that the Grey Fox has a personal motive.

In the Skyrim one, you can do the Goldenglow quest by stealth, but from there on they want you to understand it's not thief work, it's Maven work, or later anti-Maven work. All the thievery is moved into the radiant and reputation quests, which do work on a stealth and no killing basis. Brynjolf telling you early on that the Thieves Guild regards killing as bad for business is supposed to be your first clue when the jobs don't match up to that.

Goldenglow was my favorite quest in the Sky TG questline, because I was able to sneak through most of it. But only most. There are a few parts were you cannot sneak your way past the certain guards, because they are looking straight at the safe you have to crack, and they never turn away. Then at the end no matter how stealthy you are the owner forces a dialogue onto you, again no matter how stealthy you try to be.

But all those quests were stilll stealthy/no killing; and you were still stealing something, it was still in line with the guild and integral to the guild actually. It was for the guild's ongoing concern, and so future Gray Foxes didn't have to be stricken into obscurity. The only one that was actually personal was the wedding ring, and that is when he hands the cowl and guild over to you and becomes the Count he used to be, so it is a valid undertaking for wrapping up the questline.

Imho, the "Ultimate Heist" was the greatest quest of all, sneaking past the guards in the Castle to set the timer; and even though there was that dungeon crawl, it was an exceptional one. Slipping through the barracks where the guards were sleeping and eating; past the Blind monks and Mages dorms and Evangeline Beanique - and Ocato - and that fantastic fall. That quest was epic!

And throughout that whole questline, I always felt like I was an important cog in an organization of elite thieves; not like criminal scum; which is how the Skyrim questline left me feeling. And it had an outcome that benefited me in the end; which it doesn't sound like the Skyrim one did; though to be honest I've never finished it, so don't really know.








I did that one, and ran out of invisibility potions. But yeah, the guy talking to me made me jump out of my skin, lol.

Renee, it sounds like Claire’s team is fun to watch in action. When I play Abiene the healer she usually has Jerric up front in Lydia’s role with Lil and/or Darnand shooting into the fray, so just keeping Jerric healed up is a full-time job. Dawnguard is fun for a Restorationist, since the sun spells actually do some damage.

I like the idea of Claire as a battle-healer in the war. Seems to suit her better than wading in and killing everybody. One thing I’ve learned from ESO, everyone fights harder when there’s a healer at their back. Without a good RP purpose the whole war thing would be a grind. I hope this fits her.


As far as the Thieves Guild questline, I didn’t like it until I had a character whose stealth skills were their focus. In Goldenglow I felt like a badass shooting an arrow to distract that one guard and never being spotted by the mercenaries. The elf can be persuaded to hand his key over for a quiet escape, at least until the hives go up in flames. By the time they were doing Karliah’s quests even heavy-foot Brynjolf had high enough sneak through my character’s higher level to get by most of the Falmer and chaurus bugs.

In Taking Care of Business (the TG quest with an option to brawl the shopkeepers) I always assumed the targets had decided not to pay their protection money. There are sneaky ways to get them to pay without brawling them for characters who are not thugs. I like that the Thieves Guild questline starts out with an unsavory bit of organized crime business. After all thieves are people who steal things from other people, which generally is not very nice.

I like ghastley’s idea of a short list of Companion Hired Muscle targets. Getting a contract to beat up your spouse strains credulity.

I see groups of Companions out in random world events pretty regularly. Even Skjor in the pre-patch days would turn up dead with his group! It’s neat to fight with them for the two seconds it takes to kill whatever they were after. Nowdays I use a mod to slow down the Companion questline so that I’m not Harbinger in three days. Most of my Companions will never learn about the Hircine business. They just do the odd job and occasionally get my favorite greeting, “Hail, Companion.”

Dammit it, Renee! You got me again!


One thing I enjoyed about Oblivion’s TG was that you had to seek them out. If you weren’t at a certain place at a certain hour... no guild. That’s the way thieves should work! In Skyrim Brynjolf acts too much like the adoring fan in the sense that he’s on top of you almost as soon as you enter Riften. It’s unseemly for a guild that prides itself on ‘shadow hide you’ to approach a complete stranger in broad daylight and say ‘steal this ring for me... right now,’ and it breaks immersion for me to such an extent that they are never quite able to reclaim it over the entire quest line.

That said, I do like the subtext that Brynjolf’s character plays to all the time. The first time you find your way to the Flagon he’s talking to Vekel about you. It’s pretty obvious that he considers you a cut above the usual potential thief that you see the guards pincushioning all the time. It makes more sense then for you to be called upon to do the most difficult jobs for the guild (not to mention the underlying implication that Mercer would just as soon see you killed on one of these jobs). It also makes sense that Delvin and Vex would take advantage by sending you around to do all the leg work to make the guild great again. Those things make the TG work better than, say, the Companions (where you are initiated into the Circle almost faster than you can claim a bed in the common room), or the College of Winterhold (where you are immediately sent on the most dangerous missions before you even know who your fellow apprentices are).




I would have loved to see that!

Fuzz (Fluffie's sister is getting her own run-through) just went to join the College of Winterhold to help advance her conjuration. Even after all the discussion of the companions, I wasn't expecting Ria and Vilkas with a Snowy Sabre Cat. I thought they just hunted the regular ones. We met them while taking the back route to Winterhold through Wayward Pass.

I should have had her try taking the Wagon through the pass, but there's no real trails on the North side, so we didn't.

This post has been edited by ghastley: Oct 8 2015, 04:11 PM

In no particular order, Claire Voyance has...

...returned to Whiterun.

...finished fixing up Breezehome with a child's bedroom.

...adopted Lucia.

...decided to head off toward Karwathstan to recruit a special, lost member of Dawnguard back to service, but stopped in Rorikstead to hire Erik the Slayer, first.

So now her crew includes Erik, Aela the Huntress, and Lydia. Yah!


Grits: Yes, I can imagine a dedicated healer in TESO would be a great person to have around. It certainly is a different perspective (RP wise) that's for sure.

Destri: Bjorn Tubewyyld!!!!!!!

This post has been edited by Renee: Oct 17 2015, 01:15 AM

Do you know if DG members are randomly placed on the map or they always spawn at specific locations? Because I don't recall any member being recruited at Karthwasten.

Lopov, I do know that Sorine and the Priest of Arkay always spawn at predetermined points, and that Gunmar spawns at random locations. Last play of the DG, Buffy had to go to Solstheim to find him.