Surrendering your own free will and accepting the reasons given to you (if there are any at all) is at the very core of the existance of a solider. It's one of the reasons I never went into my country's army for mandatory duty, but instead chose to do civilian service.

You certainly seem very protective of your argument, and you seem to feel personally insulted no matter what one of us has to say. From that, I deducted a reason. If that offends you, I am sorry.

That may be how european army work but I know for sure that american soldiers are not brainwashed into surrendering your will. We think and breath the same as any of you. Some people get hung up in the thought that once your in the army you can't do anything or think a certain way. Its not true. The only thing they drill into your head is how to strip and clean and rifle in less than 5 min. Other than that I go to work, I go out to eat, I take care of my family ect. Theres nothing to worry about going into the army or navy or whatever. The military helps you... It doesn't destroy you.

Didn't that sound like a army recruiter? Im not stooping that low am I?

This post has been edited by jonajosa: Jul 20 2005, 09:16 PM

so you mean the American soldiers that were indited on charges of torture, and claimed they were only following orders had no trouble at all thinking right?

I'm talking about the prison tortures of course.


I mean either they lied and were acting only on their own, or they were acting on orders and simply choose not to see it was wrong what they did.

I actually dont think think the soldiers that tortued soldiers was a order.. It can of course depend on what kind of a commander they had. I think soldiers who have done that would have acted out of anger, its wrong to do. But I can say that I really dont know what I would have done if we had captured several enemies that had killed my friends in war. I think that would be hard...

This post has been edited by Fuzzy Knight: Jul 20 2005, 10:00 PM

You speak as if we can't think on our own. How many times do I have to tell you before its through your skull?... Yes soldiers can think. Does that mean they think in the most correct or flawless way? No. Are your choices always made on perfected well thought out plans? No. Are mine? No. People make mistakes and thats somthing the world will just have to get used to. Including me. I was outraged at the fact that they did that. But i don't dwell on it anymore. Its a past mistake.

Those people chose the wrong way to get that info. That was wrong and their being punished for it. SO don't you hold that against me or anyone that is american. Thats like me Hateing Stargelman because hes German and that is where the Nazi regime started. Thats wrong.

But let me ask you this, Are you holding the actions of a few soldiers against the entire United States armed forces? I think you are.

This post has been edited by jonajosa: Jul 21 2005, 01:47 AM

I fully believe that those orders were given by higher ups in the pentagon and army. Soliders don't just wake up one morning and say "Let's torture our prisoners."

No, they didn't.

I've red all of this and I still can't believe my cat juggling eyes... of all people here, Jona, I would least suspect that you're the one who views world in such black and white contrasts - if you're a military commander (I susspect it, from that post up there) then even worse. First of all, do you stop just for 1 second to think about your colleagues from the other side, the 'commies' or 'martians' or whatewer ?! Are they robots maybe, or are they also people with human emotions and human fears ?! Say, don't you think that China also might be viewing USA, a technologicaly superior nation, as a threat to itself (funny how that would be so, because there is such a great part of US industry in China ) and maybe, just maybe, they are building up their arsenals to protect their own interests ? And forget about the Far East, how 'bout the whole damn world ? See, everyone in the world has interests. Everyone in the frikkin world loves it's country and has feelings for it, no matter if it's big or small - so USA is not solely entitled to be the cradle of righteousness or the world's policeman; however, there is the question of why Iraq, Yugoslavia and many other happy things have took place over the years... much of it is to blame on itself, true, but a big part falls upon shoulders of wrong foreign policy of the US. See, all my life I hated that damn s.o.b. Milosevic, who is now sitting in Hague and acting like a bloody patriot, and I've done in my days what little I could to fight against his regime. Did I and the entire serbian opposition get some solid help from the outside ? No - instead, everything was polarised against us, and even now people see the Serbs as DEVILS. The same polarisation thing has gone down in Iraq, with the exception that now they face civil war because they have opposing faiths within islam that drive each other into a bloodbath - and second military intervention didn't help that one little bit, it just drove the entire land even deeper into the void.
The entire thing, however, isn't that frightening as the fact that polarisation and narrowmindness continues still. See, you can be sure of one thing here, Jona: I am a Bush-hater. In my eyes Geroge W. represents completely misunderstood concept of foreign policy that acts arogantly and denies some more open-minded nations the will to help fight against common enemy - terrorism. When bulk of serbian police and military forces fought Kosovo's albanian separatist forces (a great number of them was getting aid from Osama himself) in 1998. some of them did crimes against civilians - in similar way some of your soldiers tortured prisoners - but those exceptions, along with the popular viewing of Serbs as 'butchers' and 'genocidal nation', made foundation for NATO intervention in 1999. - again, a lot was to blame on our own politicians, but that was no excuse to send bomber formations against factories, railroads, communications; heck, my own street was targeted and bombed ! I had cluster bombs in front of my own front yard ! So... after all that, should I be angered against the whole United States and wish foolishly, like some in my land, that things like 9/11 should happen to you more often ?! Should I be that narrowminded ? Should I be angry ?
No. I simply know that everyone in the world has interests; everyone loves his/hers home and everyone would do anything to defend it - but that should be the point that makes us all stop and think bloody hard and try to be more tolerant towards each other. For those who see entire nations as hostile I say: "Picture can never be just black & white - there are always shades of gray", and for those who revel in some things, like revenge, I say: "vengeance and justice, like guilt and responsibility, are two different things".

p.s. : As for the "walk in the boots" part I did a long, 9-month walk, and I can say with some certainty that military does brainwash you a little - or a lot, if you allow yourself that - but that is entirely individual choice.

p.s. II: Oh, and if this whole shebang I wrote doesen't make much sence to youz'all or even anger some of you, fine - I was also angry when I watched the video shoot of a completely burned-up bus with 19 civilian casualties back in '99. when the AGM that took out the bridge took out the bus, too. See, soldiers follow orders of their commanders, who also take orders from highest politicians, and they don't have to think about collateral damage - but families of the dead have to. So there you go - feel free to be pi**ed off and then check to see if I care.

p.s. III : One more time - GUILT and RESPONSIBILITY are two separate things. I believe that soldiers guilty for those tortures have to answer and that their CO's also hold some responsibility for their actions (not entirely, of course) - but that doesen't make everyone in the US Army responsible for that crime. There is no logic in so called 'collective blame', because there is no such thing as 'collective blame', damnit.

EDIT: what the heck, honored user ?!? He is no honored user, he is a horses [CENSORED]

This post has been edited by milanius: Jul 21 2005, 12:38 AM

Ah . . SE Europe, a beautiful place.

Really, are there people like that who wish those attacks would happen to us again.

They obviously didn't watch the live news of the attack, because if they did they would have seen hundreds upon hundreds of people jumping from the windows of the building, so damn high in the air. Would see the hundreds of rescue workers rushing into the building, not only to save other Americans, I assure you, there were definitely foreigners in those buildings. Probably many of them from Europe.

That attack took thousands of American lives.

So, if people wish it upon me and my fellow Americans, then I wish it upon them.

Oh and just so you know, my school had all the TV's on that channel when it happened, and my teacher was crying.

I was only in fourth grade.

This post has been edited by gamer10: Jul 21 2005, 01:17 AM

Erm...does disagreeing with the war mean that I hate America? Cause if so, that's plankton.

People here also forget that 9/11 took 4 of our lives in Ney York. One could say that 4 lives are nothing compared to the loss of thousants of innocent lives, sure - but they are. Every single life counts, which is why I get so angry when I hear someone say, when speaking of America, "they brought that onto themselves". No one in their right mind can say or claim something like that because it's simply insane. An entire nation just can't be blamed for something... however, you didn't read my entire post carefully, Gamer10, for if you did it you'd see that I regret everything and hate terrorists as much as you, so no, I am not here to fight. Again, my eyes don't see just black and white - they see all the shades of grey (like Evan Seinfeld, a man from Brooclyn, NY, once said in his poem).

p.s.: Oh, and since SE Europe isn't such a lovely place I am now from somewhere else

No of course not, I just can't stand the fact that people who haven't experienced such attacks yet (a single attack taking that many live has yet to happen in Europe doesn't it, and for the much of the world as well.) would wish them upon America, which is basically wishing them upon me.

I view every single human life as having an infinite value, taking one is completely wrong in every way imaginable.

I do not support war, or terroist attacks, and I wish humanity could just get along.

This post has been edited by gamer10: Jul 21 2005, 01:25 AM

Let me explain my politcal views. Please do not think less of me for them.


I am a liberal. I believe that gay marriage should be legal, as it harms no one. It irks many religous people, because they believe it to be a sin. If it is, (I'm not saying it is), Religon has no place in politics.

I believe that war sucks, but I respect those who fight in it, and I admire them to no end. To have that bravery, you command my respect. I think that Afghanistan was a totally justified war, as America (My home, which I LOVE) was attacked, and three thousand innocent people died, by the hands of cowardly terrorrists.

I believe that Iraq was a false war, mounted by false facts and a corrupt, evil administration. IRAQ never attacked us, ever!! Darfur has genocide, but we don't go in there, so the argument "Well, Saddam gassed his own people", is completely [censored] moot.

Iraq may have hated us, BUT THEY NEVER ATTACKED US. They didn't harbor terrorists, but now they do, because of this war. Iraq was a secularist regime, that didn't like religon.

Osama Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda, on the other hand, are diehard religous fanatics, who hate us because we invaded their homeland. (When we placed a military base in Saudi Arabia.)

I respect and love and admire the troops, and love my country. Because I do not support this war, does not mean I do not supoort the troops.


Thank you.

*Claps*

Well said, and I completey respect your views, for the most part.

I have no idea how gay marriage was thrown into this, however I will give my view on this.

1. I'd rather not see too males or females showing signs of sexual affection in public, however during the current time, many Americans do, but I have yet to see two males do so, and I certainly don't want too.

2. I do not support both wars, however I am forced to admit that the fact that Iraq was harboring possible terrorists was enough reason, but then again, I don't like how so many civillians get killed in war. So if we had ever had a vote as a nation, and I had been of legal voting age, I would have voted against it.

3. I don't consider Osama a fanatic, because of what is he a fanatic. Islam? Surely not, Islam is a peaceful religion, it teaches absolutely no hatred for others.

4. I like peanut butter and jelly.

This post has been edited by gamer10: Jul 21 2005, 01:37 AM

Well, I mentioned gay marriage, as it comes under my poltical belifes.

Osama is a fanatic of his deranged version of Islam.

Iraq didn't harbor terrorists, unless they were sitting in office. (Saddam, Chemical Ali, etc...)

Before you go yelling at me and rambleing on about how the world would be better without bush please get this into your mind. You have no right to insult me here in this calm thread. We are to discuss this in a readable manner. Try fixing your post and then we'll talk.

This post has been edited by jonajosa: Jul 21 2005, 02:05 AM

If you would be so kind to show me where did I personally offend you or yell at you I will apologize to you at once, Jona. However, I will not apologise because I believe that the world would be a better place without Bush as for my previous post, yes, it is just a bit more bitter and uncoherent, but I am afraid that that's as coherent as I can get, sorry.

good post, however I cannot agree fully with you. for the simploe reason that I don't think fighting in a war, automatically means you're entitled to respect.




not wanting to get sidetracked. but why would you be offended, I think that's what you're saying, when you see two males show love for one another?

and if you're opposed then that's fine, you're entitled to your own opinion. however do you think just because you disagree with being gay, it's justified to ban gay marriage and whatnot? just an open question.

Stargazey made a great line there, if religion is against it, then religion should steer clear of politics. I think many of the nations that refuse to accept it do it solely for Religious purposes, and living in a nation where it is allowed, I really think that's bad politics there.




again Jona you accuse someone of flaming you or insulting you when there was no such thing going on.
I do fear you take things we say about America way too personal. there is nothing wrong with loving your country, but when taking it too far, I think it might easily become fanatism.

OMG, my babies grown since I left it =)

Anyways, *puts on serious face*

Please, please, please, please, if you are going to say stuff like..

(grr.. I cant find the quote)

Well it was something about why invade Iraq when there are all these other nations that have similiar problems?

Super simple answer is... The US isn't China

If we had several million soldiers I ASSURE you that we would be EVERYWHERE rooting out terrorism. Ha, consider us the inquisitors =0

And please don't say this administration is evil.. You have no idea what an evil administration is then. Go live under the rule of (?) Kim Jong II and see how evil the american goverment is.

Right now it doesn't matter if you support the war or not. YOU CAN DO NOTHING TO CHANGE THAT NOW, save blowing hot air. We are in Iraq now, and if the american government wants to be smart, we wont leave Iraq for a very long time..

Actually I'm sure that germany and japan were very well cared for after we bombed their country. There pretty prosperous world powers now arent they

OMG the USA is so evil..

Also, on the thing about the soldiers.

Americans are the product of an idea known as individuality. We are a team of individuals, not mindless robots that do our masters will. And every american on this board SHOULD be offended if our soldiers are called that (mindless followers).

Average age for the US military is 18-22 that reflects alot on us. I tend to take pride in the fact that we are a nation of volunteer warriors that have wonderfully free lives.

But again, the US of A is a horrible nation that picks on 3rd world countries whos dictators kill their populace and fund terrorism.

Just like to add that soldiers are not mindless automatons of destruction, and do have individual minds, but their job is dictated and created through orders. It matters not how you view those orders, as disobeying them will most likely result in a courtmartial. Simply put, the hands are tied. I dont think the individuality of soldiers has a place in this discussion.

Well said Channler.

Now to the point of me "supposedly" being insulted. You are insulting me when you speak badly about, my family, my country, or the people I respect( president, fellow soldiers, friends ect). Thats why i have been insulted. Its the meaning behind the words Alex. Not the words themselves.

Now to the Gay marriage issue. Lets talk about that and stay on it untill someone wishes to begin another topic. There is to be no use of Religion or "its this presidents fault" in this topic. Understood? Good.

Gay marriage, Good or bad, legal or illegal, why or why not? Begin.

This post has been edited by jonajosa: Jul 23 2005, 12:04 AM