This is my position........

Abortion, unless done purely for the purposes of offsetting an imediate threat to the mother's life (choice 2) is murder by definition. Murder is the deliberate and pre-meditated killing of another human that is not done in self-defense. Upon what definition does a human fetus not constitute a human. It is the form taken by a human life at a certain stage of it's growth and development, it is not any other species therefore it is a human life. To draw an arbitery line in the sand at a certain point of the growth and development of a human life is ridiculous.

Sure the embryo at very early stages of it's development isn't conscious, but so what? Are we to excuse everyone who kills his victims say when in deep sleep, or while knocked out, on the basic that since they aren't presently conscious, they aren't officially human. The position of the embryo is exactly the same as the sleeping person, though they aren't conscious at present they will become so at a later point as their development reaches whatever mysterious point that they need to get too to become conscious. The fetus is thus 100% alive and 100% human and the process of abortion makes it 100% dead and 100% human, hence abortion is murder.

What about the other pro-abortion argument that the embryo/fetus constitutes a part of the woman's body. This doesn't make sense either. The embryo/fetus has a seperate genetic code (unless it's a clone) from it's mother and though it is totally dependant on it's mother for everything still constitutes a seperate entity inside the mothers body. If the fetus is considered part of the mother, that would mean that she can logically claim to be a bacterium, a virus, an intestinal worm or an ameoba, as all of these could also be inside her, along with millions of other parisites.

So abortion is murder.

I agree with ^, but I went with option #3. If you are raped would you really want to have a baby from that? As long as it is done as soon as possable (i.e. Not waiting a few months, but within a couple weeks.) then I find it acceptable. But as soon as you can see physical signs on the mother then that is way to far.

So as long as it is done early and from a rape I am okay with it.

Abortion is a woman's choice. Who are you and I to tell a woman what she can do in her body? Condoms are not foolproof, nor are birth control pills.

Germany was Hitler's nation, was he right to do what he did?

Why carry out the act if you're not willing to bear the responsibility of what normally occurs without an unnatural prevention method?

How does Hitler fit into this? Plus it isn't always because they said "Hey, let's have unprotected sex!".

How does he not, Hitler was a murderer. A life is a life no matter what stage.

Right, if I understand correctly you're saying I don't believe in abortion when the woman is raped . . .

I am fully for abortion in that circumstance.

This post has been edited by gamer10: Aug 3 2005, 01:22 AM

Sorry about the last part, I was reading three tings at once. But I still think bringing Hitler into a conversation about to abortion is unnecisary.

I've done it many a time. It's a very good analogy.

I am personally anti-abortion, seeing as it is killing off a human child. I used to be against it except in cases of rape, but now I'm reconsidering and going more towards totally wrong - it isn't the baby's fault his mother was raped.

And when someone says "It's the woman's body, she can do what she wants with it." Well, there just *happens* to be another body inside of hers. Is it her right to kill another human merely because it is in her body? I think not. That would be along the same lines as "You're in my house, so I can kill you."

Or, as gamer10 said, Hitler could say. "Hey, you're in my country, so I can kill you.'

While I normally wouldn't touch a topic like this with a ten-foot pole, I guess it wouldn't hurt.

I think abortion is only acceptable if the mother's life is in danger. In matters of rape, I quote Mr. Terry Goodkind, author: 'The sins of the father do not carry to the child', or something like that. Anyways, he is right. Why should the child be punished for the actions of the father? Either way you look at it, its taking a life.

These are just my thoughts. Flame all you want but they wont change.

This post has been edited by Kell-Reevor: Aug 3 2005, 06:24 AM

Look at rthe last parliament (the locked one) for my argument.

Brief summary: We tried the [b]illegal[.b] thing out, and it didn't work. People were getting abortions anyway, illegal ones. Ones without certified doctors, because they were that desperate. That's the world we were living in, and it hasn't changed. You can argue against those girls as much as you want saying they deserve their parents shame etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, but in the end you can't stop them. At least this way we can keep it clean and under control. Talk about when life begins as much as you want, but no matter what, those teenage girls are alive, and go ahead and blame them for getting pregnant, say they deserve what they get if you will, but plenty will still persue abortion. You will not change that by making it illegal, all you will do is cost us the lives of hundreds of young girls, like the ones that were dying back when it was illegal. It is a cold, hard fact that since abortion was legalized the rate of girls dying from illnesses related to abortion has nearly ceased completely.

This post has been edited by DoomedOne: Aug 3 2005, 06:22 AM

Basically, you just said that we shouldn't stand on our values because the rest of the world is bad.

Should we make murder legal because it happens anyway? Because really I could take that last post and replace a few phrases to make that same logic apply to many other things.

Murder is not a perfect parallel to abortion. Your point is obviously to give me perspective to understand that Abortion is a lot like teenage girls killing children, only the children are in their bodies and they're not children yet, but to you, murder is murder. That is my understanding, that murder is murder. I agree with you, I think these girls are murdering their children, but I'm not a polarizer, therefore I don't think murder is murder. Only a sith deals in absolute (I really couldn't resist). You can personally disagree with abortion all you like, and I agree, I'd rather not be a part of it. I'd rather a girl I'm in relation with make the choice to have the baby and put into adoption. But I'm not there, and there thousands of situations all over the globe where there aren't people like us who have a say in it. There are plenty of girls who will get an abortion no matter what. We can't stop that, what we can do is control it. In this situation, it's a choice between losing a few thousand young girls every year and losing a few thousand potential children every year. In that sense, it's not like murder, it's called picking your poison. To me, the baby has maybe two people that care for it, while that girl has an entire family that will be utterly heart-broken. The world does not work in a way where you can save everybody. Hell, I'd love it if Vash the Stampede were here to figure out a way to save every single girl on the planet that gets pregnant and decides to get reckless instead of facing a child.

I'm all for abortion. A teenage girl shouldn't be forced to be a mother just because she made a dumb mistake.

Having an abortion may ruin one life, but keeping it might ruin two.

Wrong, an abortion ends one life, but keeping it (might) ruin two. Which is worse, murder or the possibility of a less than entirely rosy life.

Seriously though, I fail to grasp Doomed One's logic on the murder thing or on the "illiegal abortions thing either". What you're basicly saying is that just beacause some murderers get their heads smashed in by their victims in the process of murdering them, we should legalise murder. This is the logic of what is bieng said. The argument goes like this.........

Why have risky dangerous illegal murders with the attendant risks to the murderers life when we can make murder legal and have NHS squads drug the victims, drag them into ambulences, take them to the NHS "life wards" where there lives can be ended in an orginised and disciplined manner which minimises the risk to the murderers life, rather than having risky and dangeus illiegal murders that pose a threat to the murderers life.

Remember, we're not talking thousands, we're talking millions of lives here, a mass murder comparable to what Hitler, Stalin and Mao did. Even if a few hundred girls every year die each year from the consequences of their actions, then we're talking a comparitively small number. And morally they are choosing to break the law of their own free will, laws put in place to keep people from having abortions, so it's hardly as though they are innocents is it? They may be motivated by strong feelings to kill their own unborn children, but so are many murderers motivated by strong feelings to kill their (already born) victims.

This post has been edited by Slayer of Cliffracers: Aug 3 2005, 11:29 AM

So you think it should be totally illegal? So a 12 year old girl gets raped, and she is in a home because she lost her parents. You think this is a good standing for a human life?

That is not what he is saying. Please do not twist his words.

So, are abortion doctors akin to the third reich? It's a woman's choice! If a minor is brutally raped, by a sex offender, does she have to bare his child? No.

This post has been edited by Stargazey: Aug 3 2005, 11:17 PM

Please, folks. Avoid all manners of unnecessary hostility. We've had quite enough of that already.
That includes putting words or entire sentences in caps (annoying, rude and unncecessary), "smirky sarcasm", challanging others to prove you wrong in a negative tone and putting words in other people's mouths.
These discussion and debate threads (any thread here, really) share a goal to allow people to share and argue their views without being afraid have them be met with insults or be patronized.

Respect other people's oppinions, faulty as they may be from your view. Argue your own views sensibly and politely. Thanks.

Oke Doke

I'm still wondering how a 12 year old girl could make that mistake . . .man this caught me off guard, it's not really a mistake if you had the choice of whether or not to do it and you consciously acted wrongly. If the parents aren't watching their children close enough . . .well then, I guess it's their fault. Make them take care of the child.

In the case of rape, my view is starting to become irrational so I won't post it.

In the case that you are an adult and you aren't raped:

In my opinion don't do it if you don't want the child, that's why the whole act of reproduction exsists, to have the child.

What else are you doing?

This post has been edited by gamer10: Aug 3 2005, 04:15 PM