So when did I say convert them to Christianity? Kill their leaders.. yes. I do believe we should, but since I don't feel that you believe that there that bad why don't you go stay there for a little bit, heh, and see what happens.

I don't disagree their plight is terrible, but killing their leaders is kind of an extreme way to fix it. Why not let the Evil UN deal with it, and let them help the people. We're too wrapped up in the Quagm...I mean, Iraq War.

I'm sorry but if you were alive when Hitler was killing off the jews and the war ended without him commiting suicide would you say his execution would be going to far???

There's a different situation. As of today, the majority of governments considered to be dictatorships were actually installed and backed by the US, most of the them in the Reagan era. Actually, jsut because Kenya and Niger are developing countries, it doesn't mean they have facist, murderous dictators.

But, I will get to that soon.

Fade2Gary, let me address this first. I didn't say channler was brainwashed, I said he was on the bandwagon, and it's true. People in the United States against the UN are on the abndwagon. I've explained why quite througfhly if you wouldn't mind reading. Please don't take this disrespectfully, but I dislike it when someone sets up a scarecrow in a debate.

Fidel Castro-
Paranoid guy. Killed 2 people in college for disagreeing with him, has made dissent illegal in Cuba (for fear that the formal regime will attempt to take back the country, like they could.)
100% of the people in Cuba can read, can get help when ill, have shelter, three meals a day, a job, and support to raise children. Fidel Castro himself never quite got it, but the fact that he was raised with communist ideals did help the people of the government. There are problems, and many things in his form of communism go directly against many american ideals. That's why people don't like Castro. Why people leave, I don't know. They all have everything they need, there is no oppression in cuba though police there I heard are arrogant and power-trippy (he gives his police too much power over the people, in direcft violation of socialist idealism, but of course he is paranoid).

Channler, Ann Coulter said it, not you. Ann Coulter is a retard, we can foget her. Just because a few other nut-jobs bought her books does not mean she's credible, and therefore I don't think its fair to name her as a voice of the right-wing. I will say this however, killing their leaders is arrogant. Self-rightiousness is the root of so many problems in the world these days the last thing we need is another person willing to cross a few lines to get something done, no matter how much they think it's the right thing. See, Channler this is why I'm against a violence, and no need to argue it just respect my opinion. I'm not against violence because I think I'm some enlightened messiah right about everything, I'm against violence because I may be wrong. You can understand this, because you have big goals as well, but basically what I'm saying is no matter how much I do in life, as long as I didn't show prejudice, kill anybody, torture anybody, or order someone else to kill anybody, no one will be able to write me in the history books as an ***hole.

PS: Jonajosa, this is a parliament. We are not complaining, we are debating. What's to stop me from saying you're complaining about the UN because you don't like the way it's run? I understand that this is a parliament, that's why. For many problems there is a conservative side (the side that wants things to stay as they are) and the radical side (the side that wants to change things). In abortion, I think it should remain legal, therefore I'm on the conservative side. That does not, however, make me call someone who thinks it should be illegalized a complainer.

This post has been edited by DoomedOne: Aug 9 2005, 06:45 AM

How do any rightwingers defend this? http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/8/8/124941/6758

Hunh.. David Swanson... wonder if hes related to Ryan Swanson Amazing

So I don't quite have the time to read through the.. thing I get to go to work!

EDIT: Oh well what the hell I can be late..

I just skimmed through it but..

Whats the problem? I'm sure if Bill Clinton was coming through there during his prez term then the same probs would happen.

Liberal |-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| Conservative

I am..............................right here |^| on the american political scale, but I really look like a hard core conservative when people ATTACK the prez, I don't personally like him but HE IS OUR PRESIDENT, and thus should be respected.

(Maybe I believe that cause I was raised in a family that taught me respect? )

This post has been edited by Channler: Aug 9 2005, 07:30 PM

Gone for secruity reasons

This post has been edited by jonajosa: Aug 11 2005, 04:17 AM

Okay

Thomas Jefferson's statement rings true today. You can't ignore the statements you disagree with and say the ones you do agree with are timeless. I believe that quote goes side by side democracy, and therefore that quote is as timeless as democracy. That is the root of democracy, that the people are in control. The people choose. Leaders are supposed to be JUST representatives. If they do not represent my ideals, I'll exercize my freedom of dissent. Dissent is not only a right, but a responsibility for those of us living in a democracy. In this day and age, Jefferson's statement rings truer than before, because dissent is more necessary today, where checks and balances have been overturned, and bribery are not only accepted, but a norm for government officials.

Mrs. Sheehan is doing a completely admirable thing right now. The Iraq war is unjustified, and those soldiers are dying for corporate causes, that's where the evidence I see points to, that's what I've deduced. Obviously she won't accept the answer from advisors, because they're advisors. See, let me break it down, she's not looking for reassurance that her son died for a noble cause, she flat out doesn't buy it. She wants Bush to come face to face with what he is doing. She's not going to get violent, this protest is really about Bush, not her. He can stay in his hole and not face the truth is he wants to, and probably will if he can avoid it, typical.

So, by that logic, the constitution is arcane, isn't it?


What does Bush lose by talking to her? Bush killed her son by sending him to an unjust war.


And he wants to arrest her as a threat to National Security. Yeah, you know how violent those greiving mothers are.



Nice post DoomedOne, I agree with everything you said.

For Gods sake open the blinds! Obviously you can't see!

The President DID NOT KILL HER SON. Think about this! For us to go to war not only did the Prez have to agree but what, the congress too? Complain to them? Was the boy drafted? No, did he choose to serve in the military? Yes. In the military (as with everything else) you just might die! Hard to imagin aye?

Does the slaughter of innocent people not count as a justification for this war? What does anyone hope to accomplish by saying the war isn't justified? MORE DEAD US SOLDIERS. Damn I wish we had all those old WW2 posters hanging around still...



Wouldn't it be nice if a few posters like that were hanging around? The deaths of fallen would be for nothing if we were to pull out, as with the lives of the freedom loving and democratic Iraqi's too. It means if we pull out, and simply put, We Lost.

Just like Vietnam, we every major battle of the war, the enemies casualtys were 10 times more then ours. Oh, everyone was pumped up at the beginning.. "Something to match the greatest generation!" Some said, but then people learned the true, horrible, and most contraversiol(OMG SP?) thing of war. You had to fight it. And people did not want to fight the war, why? Because the uprise of TVs and other means of communications that show'd the horrors, and the trevasties of war. No longer was it the romantic cause that everyone was led to believe. Like stories of Alexander the Great, and our own War of Independence. People in their minds, fashioned them to be epic things, way more fantasized then truth should permet.

Untill the nations of the world can get to the level that we are at, can there be true peace (If short even). Many people think if we love them, they will love us. Every individual, that owns part of a brain should know that to not be true. Until those developing nations can ALL see the true horror of it all, will they know, and will wish for a peaceful life. And until that day happens, America, The United States of America, and every freedom proclaiming nation about, should fight for noble causes.

I realize this might hurt you to think this, but the New World was very rarely colonized by the meek. This means that we, are a nation of warriors. I will say, "peaceful" warriors, but we MUST NEVER forget our heritage in that fact.

Man, I love this country, and I would die for it. And I must thank you all for putting up debates such as this, for it really adds to my patriotic fervour(SP), makes me want to find out even more ways I can help the US.

I'd hate to retort such a passionate proclamation. Well who am I kidding, I'll gleefully retort, and with equal passion.

George W Bush is as responsible for the death of her son as the very man that shot him. He himself shares responsibility for his death by choosing to go to war, and everyone who could have convinced him not to but failed, also shares an inkling of responsibility. Bush has to accept responsibility, whether it is good responsibility he can take in stride and accept, or not. The only way he can prove to me he has the balls is to look a mother in the eye, a mother who flatly does not buy his noble-cause idea. It's an act of character to face your means.

Tell me they're dying for democracy all you want, but I saw the evidence, and I see foul-play. I'm not sure why, probably because every single instinct tells me this, but I don't trust what Bush says, or anyone in his cabinet. This gut feeling that he's distrustworthy has been ingrained in my family heritage by fourty two liars that came before him. Maybe it's me, right? Maybe it's because I simply inherently don't trust politicians, and when one says something, especially a former oil business man, I look at it a bit scrutinizingly. Maybe it's just me, growing up with a father as a crippled Vietnam veteran who got his funding cut by Bush something like 6 times since the guy came to office. Maybe it's because my grandfather was a WW2 POW. Maybe the two of them raised me to be critical on war, to seek ways to avoid it before seeking ways to enter it. Maybe it's because I think war is evil before necessary. Add those two up, I don't trust politicians, and I think war should not even be considered as an alternative until every other resource has been exhausted. There you have it, why we disagree on whether the war was justified or not. No need going itno technicalities about this particular war or we'll be here a month.

But some things are funny. See, let me break down some more of my most basic principles. Tell me if this sounds familar, "The world is my country, all men are my brethren, and to do good my religion." Now that you know that (and possibly who said it) you know that I think the U.N. or some Inter-government Institution like it is necessary. The United States is not above the rest of the world, it's simply one of our cultural rules that we think we are. Democracy is by no sense a perfect government. Democracy is, in fact, the worst form of government, setting aside all forms of government tried before it.

No, the timid did not discover the new world, but who are the timid in this day and age, not those who dare raise their voice in dissent, that's one of the bravest things to do in any government. The timid sit and do nothing, and when the new world was being discovered, it was the timid that sat and did nothing while Indians were being slaughtered. I am a warrior in the same sense a you, but I would not die for this country, and I don't think the men over there are dying for a cause any nobler than a car-accident.

And what is your way of "helping the US", aside from joining the Armed Forces? Going to a Pro-War rally, and wrapping yourself in the flag? Is that how you pledge your loyalty to this country, MY country? Well, let me tell you something, going to a rally and saying "God Bless America" does not make you a patriot. Protesting and showing your displeasure with the government, that makes you a patriot, that shows that you appreciate what you have, and you don't want it destoryed, by some chicken hawk nutjobs.

And, while you're thinking of joining the Armed Forces, read this:

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Bush_cuts_...041503.htm'
(Don't say "Oh it's a commie veteran group." What they say is dead on.)

http://www.thenewstribune.com/front/topsto...p-4297561c.html


That's how your beloved sniggering President supports our troops.





You always beat me to it DoomedOne. Damn it.

gone

This post has been edited by jonajosa: Aug 11 2005, 04:19 AM

You are so daft. You do not know me, or what I think I have commited to my country.

If you have cultivated your life ever since you were eight, learning and grasping the concepts of our Great Yet Flawed Democracy, giving up half of your life so that you can better serve your nation, then will I take any of those statements against me.

Why, if you hate the US so and you think it is so flawed, why do you stay here? Go to Canada or Mexico or something. And if not it must not be to bad.

If being against the goverment isn't patriotic, would you say that the Americans who fought against the government for a better life to create America where not true patriots?

Patriotism: love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it. If someone burns a flag and goes to jail whilg saying that the country they used to love and believe in has to change, would that not make them patriots?

Patriotism: The act of being loyal to one’s country, especially in periods of national turmoil, such as war. However, there are many disagreements over what constitutes a patriotic person, exemplified over the burning of the flag. If patriotism is being loyal to your country and it's government, would that not mean that those who followed the orders of Sadam Husein when he was in power were patriots?

Also, you said "Typical of you anti war people to try and slam the blame on the one who you don't like.". If I join the American army to protect my country, get shipped off to an un-just war, and get shot to death, would the blame not even reach Bush? Could Bush not have stopped my death by retreating when he found out the whole reason he went to war wasn't in Iraq? I think the death of every US Iraq war soldier lays on his hands.

I was watching 60 minutes yesterday, and they were talking about the US military fundings. The US has spent so much money on submarines (which can't be used in Iraq and are now out dated, battle ships (all of the decomisioned after zero days of action, also outdated), tanks (Made useless by Stryker vehicles, are slow and are easy targets for RPGs), 41 different types of bombers (about a billion dollers for each plane, America owns hundreds though it is probably more, only 4 types were used in Iraq/Afghanastan), fighter planes (either zero of close two zero were used, the rest are soaking up taxpayer money to be kept in plane graveyards) and various other wepons and vehicles (even though ifantry troops are used much more in war), that if America used the war money, they could have bought their way out of the defeceit. They could also give money back to the taxpayers (alot of money) without even being close to the defeceit, researched alternative fuels, put many more people into schools, lowered university and colledge prices dramatically and could have made a much better ifantry strike force that would lose very little soldiers in battle.

Those are my views, and if you don't agree with them, please voice that. I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion and would like to see people excirsizing that entitlement like we have done so in this thread. I hope my views don't make me seem any less or more of a good person to anyone that agrees or disagrees with me, because you should never judge a man by his political stance.

Ok....so far I regard this as a lesson ..learning more about America and politics..but PLEEASE, guys.....try to keep it free from personal remarks such as..






I think this thread is far too interesting to want it to be locked...so please , for my sake, be kind to each other.....




Oh..and Red......Very nice post!!

Well, I hate to say this but for hundreds of years the Europeans have not only existed attached to the other nations. They have suppressed them, kept them down.

I'm sure if the U.S. decided to get involved with everyone we'd end up streaming other nations food supplies to help our soldiers while the farmers and the rightful owners of that food die of starvation.

"Thousands of emaciated destitutes still roam the streets in the ceaseless quest for food, scouring dustbins and devouring rotten remains of castaway food and fruit. Rickety children clutching imploringly the tattered garments barely covering the bones of their mothers are seen in all quarters of the city." (Quoted in Manchester Guardian Weekly, U.K., October 15, 1943.)

"Whilst we learn on the one hand of the fear of alienating certain favoured sections of the property owning class, we learn that there was no such fear during the period of alienating those sections of the population with little or no property. Side by side with the blackest of black markets, dealing in the very life-blood of the poverty-stricken masses, there were "long queues of hungry workers waiting all night outside Government controlled grain shops in places like Bombay." (Manchester Guardian Weekly, U.K., January 15, 1943.)

So I have brought the topic to Famine and Imperialism.

This post has been edited by gamer10: Aug 10 2005, 05:43 PM

I will agree that the blame falls on Bush's shoulders - but not all of it. As Channler pointed out, the Senate is just as responsible, and nobody joins the military with a "Never Die in War" guarantee, so I personally don't think that President Bush should be answering to a dead soldier's mother, though it would be a nice thing to do. And who's to say that the soldier didn't feel proud to die for his country, just as Channler said he would? while I wouldn't have wanted to die in a war I didn't believe in, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't. I wouldn't have joined the military - he would have, apparently.

The topic of patriotism came up. Channler, how is pointing out the flaws in the government not patriotic? I mean, it is excercising your freedom of speech to try and make the place you live in a better place, so telling Stargazey to move to Mexico or Canada was a very close-minded remark. Making this country a better place, is in fact every party's goal, they just have different views as to what is actually better.

One thing Jona, did you like President Clinton?

And those vets are better because they're VETS4BUSH. Look at that coward Bush's war record. Serving over in Alabama (Because those Southerners get awful dangerous), while John Kerry was serving on a swift boat in the Viet Cong.







I don't know you, you're right, but I do know one thing, being in the armed forces is not the only way to be a patriot.

That's the problem with the right wing, if you don't like what's going on, get the hell out. If you have a kid who misbehaves, do you say "Well, if you don't like living here, get out." You fix the kid, you make him better behaved, you make him smarter, you don't kick him out.



I will have to ask you to do one thing, Never say I hate my country.

His wife also owns Heinz Ketchup.

*snorts*

Sorry, that didn't have anything to do with the current topic.

Well, I guess Mr. Kerry wasn't as lucky then was he. Are we putting people down because they got off better than others?

Southerners do get awful dangerous, especially when it comes to racism.



It takes more work to make him smarter, more work equals more time. More time equals less time to spend on other issues. So why worry about the kid, if he doesn't like it, say.

"Too bad."

Does the kid go around with picket signs and say.

"I hate your tax laws."

I seriously doubt it.

This post has been edited by gamer10: Aug 10 2005, 06:20 PM