I have political university But I don't recognise the qoute. Communism is bad because the good type of communist theory says it is the stage past capitialism after the world has turned into a "McWorld" state, but we are still moving into a McWorld state and infact when Communism arose it hadn't really begun. Anyone who has studied Marxist theory knows that it can't work until then, communist leaders just used it as a new form of control via a new type of nationalism. A couple of Communist leaders tried to make it into something similiar to Communism which they believed would work but most just believed in the fame/power. Dictatorship is bad, most cases led to tyranny but even without the tyranny it is still an oppressive form of control, democracy is also bad, it is an oppressive form of control but most cases do not led to tyranny.

A flag is a bit of clothe without nationalism or patriotism. If someone comments "I think you should be hung if you burn a piece of clothe", this is extreme yes? But aside from some psychotic materialists no one would say that. But then you add nationalism or patriotism and then somebody DOES say that, if it is "What we make of it creates if it is to be considered bad." then patriotism is made extreme.
Patriotism is supposed to be pride in the good things, it is supposed to be rational and there is nothing wrong with it.
Nationalism is pride in anything, good, bad or neutral. It is irrational, taking pride with bad things because they are associated with the nation; it is seeing only the good and ignoring the bad, it is treating symbols as sacred rather than acknowledging good things do not die with their symbols.
Now really, if you use the flag as an excuse to act irrationally then your not standing by the ideals. The flag was founded on creating of a new free thinking nation not because it was trapped in loyalities to the British flag.

This post has been edited by Pisces: May 12 2006, 02:06 AM

Nationalism, I must agree, is very bad. Patriotism isn't so positive either, as it segregates people by borders, it makes people feel better about doing harm to other people if they're not part of their country. If you've ever read "Out of the Silent Planet" by C.S. Lewis this idea of patriotism or nationalism is exposed. The Cunniung Lewis is a master of symbolism, and though I'm less fond of christian symbolism that was attached to the later books in his series after "Out of the Silent Planet" he wrote the original book right around the beginning of World War 2, and through symbolism exposes his criticisms of nationalism and patriotism.

An ideologue named Weston, in the book, wants to colonize the already inhabited planet of mars for humans, to steal the resources from the inhabitants to give the humans more room if anything where to ever happen to the Earth, to stretch humanity all across every inhabitable planet in the universe. He get's in argument, but because he doesn't understand the martian language, he uses the protagonist of the book to translate the debate between him and the martian rulership.

He stated, every well, all the best points of any nationalist or patriotic movement, that they must stride to do what's best for them, that they must help themselves out first. That his loyalties lie on the humans before anyone else, that he believes in preserving their culture above anyone elses.

This was translated by the protagonist, and likewise all the eloquent argument and strong, intimidating,k convicing way he could present his opinion was lost, said in the amrtian language, which has no word for war or violence, and it exposed the idea of what people are trying to accomplish on Earth in very simplified, general terms, that some people think they have the right to succeed over other people, that they think they should preserve what's locked inside by invisible borders over what isn't. It was best identified by this:

the rulership of mars argued, "But what signifies your side, if he no longer lives on earth, and in a few million years may look completely different.

It made me wonder, what signifies and American to be different than any other people? That fact that he's located between two invisible borders?

Now, someone needs to define patriotism for me because as far as I can tell what it honestly means is that if someonje calls themselves american you would defend them over someone who called themselves something else. That's all I can tell on the meaning of the word, for me patriotism is a stupid word, I have loyalty to certain things, yes, but certainly not to one chunk of land over another, or one group of people over another.

Please forgive the seemingly endless line of quotes, but this is a good thread right here. Here we go:

Don't ban the fools, just ignore them, but not let them slip out of your mind - if so, they will try to get more support and become a threat to democracy. As far as it goes I will always take democracy, with all its flaws, before totalitarian regime.


Good call. Don't give hatemongers the reason to start trouble and there will be none


A good wiew, and it describes my own thoughts well. However... if an american (or, for that matter, any country's) citisen burns his own national flag one has to wonder: why does that kind of thing happen - is it because too much freedom or too little freedom ? And what if someone turns (like Hippies back in 60's)flag into clothes ? Is that similar disrespect ? Personally, I believe there should be some kind of penalty for flag burning, on a worldwide level, because it is a sort of treason to disrespect your own country like that... but public shootings and hangings are just a bit much.


They're burning American flags in Iran, Palestine, Serbia... not because they don't know (or want to know) how USA operates; heck, not even to upset anyone. They do it because of hate - plain and simple. USA has to make its foreign policies more pacific and just take away reasons for that hatret from the nationalists worldwide - that way, a road toward understanding can be paved.


One of my brothers went to fight Albanian terrorists back in '99. right on the Kosovo border. Night before his unit was shipped for that damn place their barracs in Nish (my hometown) were bombed, but fortunately no one was killed. After that episode at the very beginning of 'intervention', we have endured several tough months and in the end no one on both sides acomplished nothing. Milosevic just handed out Kosovo (just like anyone with 1/2 brain KNEW he'd do) and we all now have a bitter taste in our mouths. Back in WW2 USA and Serbia were allies and we fought against Axis together, but today many older folk here just have a blind hatret toward anything american, save the Coke But at least I can see all the shades of gray perfectly. Do I hate America, in general ? No. I hate certain america politicians and military leaders, but I can't hate all Americans - that would mean I'd have to hate Stargazey, Magnus, Zarrexaij... and about 250M people who had done nothing to me or my country... and that's just silly.
However, this is no rambling. And I can't and won't forget.



Please, DO NOT confuse Nationalism with Patriotism. While Patriotism focuses on glorification and love of one's country by focusing on its good sides, Nationalism does that by demeaning ALL OTHER nations and countries. Nationalism is bad, trust me.
Communism ? It is a good system - in theory. In reality, corruption eats away everything and ultimately creates social injustice. I know this because I still live in such country IMHO, the best social systems are ones that exist in Norway and Sweden - and that is moderate social-democratic system (center).

This post has been edited by milanius: May 15 2006, 06:21 PM

Just for the record, regarding my last post regarding burning flags, I'd just like to mention that flag burning is illegal in Norway too, and I do think flag burning is unnecessary, but I don't think it's reason enough for death sentence...

Well, as I said I HATED (past tense) Americans. I don't need to tell you how much were people swearing at America back then. And i was a 14 year old influenced by this. Still, as I said, I can forgive, but not forget. You understand right?

Yes, that's why I said ''Don't you mean Patriotism?''

True.

System in our country isn't communism. It was a long ago (in Tito's time), but now it's just capitalism with a lot of corruption. Unfortunatly

You know, I belive that our country could actualy get out of it's current state if the corruption is to be stoped (slim chance of that happening soon ).

Anyway, tell me, I heard that there was some major disaster in our country recently. I heard Tadić resigned, and Karić was kicked out of the country. What's going on?

This post has been edited by HyPN0: May 15 2006, 07:44 PM

I wasn't being completely serious when I said someone should hang for burning a flag. However, I was rather ruffed up.

My question is...

If nationalism is so bad, what other choice do we have? The world is a long way off from a global classification. And I would be hard pressed to think that everyone would unite unless there was a external foe.

Please tell me a single time where theres been utter peace in even the most united of countries. (Def not the U.S.)

So, you're advocating that we all have to stick to our countrys and diminish other? OK then. You propose that I should say:
''I love Serbia! I disrespect Americans!'' HyPN0 doesn't respect Clannler, because he is not a Serb! But HyPN0 loves milanius because he IS a Serb!

Is this your opinion? That I should stick to my nation and diminish your? No my friend, that's where you're wrong. You should love your country, be proud of it, but respect other country people. And that's patriotism

Nationalism leads to doom. I really didn't want to mention this about my country, but since milanius mentioned it.... Nationalism made a war betwen Serbians, Croatians, and Bosnians. Many people died, and even today, the situation among these people isn't all that good. Is that good? No, it's not good.

I would just like you to know that I don't really mean the things I said about USA in this post. I was just making an example.

Former Yugoslavia. When Tito was president, everybody was living together, and a Croatian and a Serb could be found it the caffe driking beer together. That utter peace lasted until Tito died and then everything had gone to hell.

Well there has been utter peace in Norway as well since WWII, at least per definition. But since we're members of NATO and send military equipment and personell to most conflicts in the world I guess that could qualify as .. uhm.. not peace? Tough question...

Strange as this may sound, when I was a taxi driver I experienced first hand every day how spoiled and arrogant/ignorant young people in my town have become. I can't really explain it, but sometimes I wished that our country would experience a war or some other form of crisis, so that people would once again start to care for each other and appreciate the real values of life, and not act like they do today. A crisis situation changes people. I remember after Sept. 11th I watched a news story from New York, where they said something like 'even the cab drivers are being nice to people now', which was apparently quite a sensation, since the New York cab drivers (and inhabitants in general) are known to be some of the most arrogant and rude people in the world (according to the New Yorkers themselves).

So maybe we all need a crisis from time to time to start appreciating the true values in life.

1. I understand, buddie
2. I can't possibly start to explain to someone who's outsider the meaning of 'samoupravljanje' *bangs his head really hard against wall* I'll only say that the system we had up untill the early 1990's was completely wrong, unefficient, susceptible to corruption(meh) and self-destructive.
3. Slim chance, yeah.
4. No, you misheard it. Ever since that " 063 Mobtel" financial scandal and Karic's fleeing from the land to Russia there is a small, private war between the goverment and Karic family - latest thing was the closing of their "BK" television station, which is just wrong, even if they are mobsters (and they are just that). However, the resignation you must've heard about wasn't Tadic's - Boris Tadic is still the president of Serbia, but vice-president of the goverment, Miroljub Labus, has resigned from his post, because of the whole sham with Mladic he also resigned from his function in G17+Party (he was the president of it) and now that little bugger Dinkic is doing his job... but hey, it's all in the day's work. You just forgot what kind of madhouse you left from \


p.s.: Hypno, even before Josip Broz Tito had died there was overwhelming feeling all across SFRJ that the peace we had was fragile, tainted and false... nationalist movements that began during the 70's (MASPOK in Croatia, Iredenta in Kosovo) were all aimed to destroy the 'uncomfortable' union that ALL nations in Federation, more or less, despised. Epilogue, as always, is coming decades later: Montenegro will have its referendum about their future state on May 21st and if it succeeds they will proclaim independence and leave. Personaly, I'd prefer it that way - Serbia will become a nation with a flag, anthem and that awesome two-headed white eagle will once again be our banner (see, there's that ol' patriotism )

This post has been edited by milanius: May 16 2006, 01:31 PM

It's good to experience financial crisis, but afterwar crisis is not so good. After war, moral values were lost, and criminals became valued as idols. Arkan being the best example. Just read a bit through his history and dare to call him a hero But Serbs valued him as someone very important and good. He was a Nationalist, although he claimed he was a patriot
Just be careful what you wish



I'll join you



Yeah.... I did BTW what's the plan for entering EU? Anytime soon? (by soon I mean in next 50 years )

Yeah well, my mother, father and all my relatives claim they didn't feel that way. Heck, my old man is a Serb, and my mom is a Croatian. I was born in Karlovac, Croatia but I emigrated in Serbia during war and I feel more like a Serb than a Croatian. Actauly I don't have anything with Croatia exept herritage.

So, I don't exacly know more than my old folks told me. Was it false? Dunno

Well I've experienced financial crisis myself (personally I mean, meaning eating spagetthi and ketchup evey day for weeks, and getting grey hairs (really!) for not having money for bills), and I can't recommend that to even enemies.

But I meant the crisis of war, not afterwar. Meaning when you experience daily alarms that tells you that you have to run to a shelter, that the school you went to yesterday was bombed last night and is no more, that the neighborhood where your grandmother lives is erased from the surface of the earth, that the hospital is bombed to pieces, when you wake up by marching feet outside your window and know that your jewish best friend neighbor is going to be taken away and be killed.

... or when someone crashes modern jet airplanes into the tallest buildings in your city, killing thousands.


This is the kind of crisis I mean, and which I think bring out the best in people when they try to cope with it together.

Of course I have not experienced this first hand, only heard it from my parents, while you have probably experienced much of this first hand and would have a better understanding.

By crisis I also mean things like flooding, earthquakes, meteor showers etc...

Nationalism tears people apart from each other, countries shouldn't be squabbling over differences, people in different countries shouldn't be squabbling over differences, it just isn't practical to hold yoursel loyal to people just because they're in the same border. it doesn't mean they're good people. I mean, I've talked to a lot of travellers who have gone everywhere, and they all agree as long as you follow the "when in rome" rule 90-99% of people are good, nice people who would help you out in need.

Resources are being with-held from people to instill hopelessness and keep them divided and poor GLOBALLY. Every human being is connected in this new struggle, whether its Americans being kept ignorant or South Americans being pressed against the wall by deathsquads, we have the same enemy. That's what bites me about both nationalism and patriotism, because no matter what you say about patriotism it's still exclusion, it's still holding one group of people over all the rest as far as your loyalties go, for absolutely no reason other than because they're within some invisible borders.

So yeah, flag-burning is just as fine and flag waving, because, as you said Channler, the flag is all about symbolism, and flag-burning is symbolic in it's own way. Why can't I get wryled up and say, "Flag waivers should be put in prison, because they're symbolizing putting one country over everyone else!?" Flag burning is the same story, people feel a certain way and act symbolically, saying the country is the source of all their problems. That, of course, isn't true, it's the same as saying I'm more loyal to someone from my country than someone who isn't, just as a standard.

Did I read this right? You WANT to be in a war?
You want to see dead civilians? Be under bombardment? See your country economy and moral crush?

Wow, this was VERY stunning for me to read. I still can't belive you said that....
Wars are *censored word* where real people die, and trust me, you would rather eat spagetthi than die.

As goes for fear and horror: I didn't have it. There were poeple who were hiding in their basements, but i'm not one of them. You know what I was doing? I was drinking beer with my friends in front of the local store. Some of my friends were doing.... creative (i.e. illegal) jobs, so we always had money for beer, and a lot of other goodies. Good 'ol ''Jelen'' beer When we saw US airplanes in the sky we were just yelling ''Over here cunts! Over here!'' My thoughts back then were ''If I have to die from this cowards, I will die with a smile on my face and a beer in my hand, instead of dieing in a basement scared like a rat.'' I'm sure you can't understand this, but hey Serbs are a crazy nation

It was diffrent on Kosovo - a part of my country (that isn't my country anymore, Albanians got what they intended).... The real trouble was there. People fleeing from their homes, a lot of people dying etc.

Wars wouldn't unite your country, actualy there is a good chance it would devide it. Everybody just looking to preserve it's own ''bottom'' not caring about others.

Financial crisis is a good thing to live out because you will learn to apriciate what you're taking for granted. And if it comes again you will be prepared. And you will certanly not mock the one who is poor.

Actualy, I would like to see your arguments how is war crisis good.
Please, I don't see one single benefit

HA ! Dead on target. We were also cheering our AA guns every night, despite the fact they couldn't hit anything (low range). Serbs are indeed a nation of insane, self-destruructive madmen berserkers... the harder you hit us in the head, the less we respect you, even when we're outnumbered 800:1


"Riba u loncu ne veruje ribi u tiganju."
("A fish in the pot can't believe the fish in the frying pen")
This means, of course, that one has to truly expirience social and economical suffering on one's own skin in order to understand that nothing good comes out of a crisis. In the ent, you only have a lose-lose situation, and that's, like Mike Madsen said it best in "Kill Bill vol.2", 'all there is to it'.

p.s.: Hypno, Serbia in EU... in 50 years ?! ahahahaaa... oh, wait... you're serious ?!!? Ha ha ha...

It is a good thing that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it.

- Robert E Lee to James Longstreet, Battle of Fredricksberg, 1862

Ok thanks for the clarifications, guys. Of course I don't really want a war in my neighborhood, and for those of you that have experienced it first hand I'll definitely respect your views on it. Financial crisis is probably a piece of cake compared to living in a warzone, but it's bad enough if you don't have any other worries (I guess war/hunger goes hand in hand anyway).

But what I mean is that all humans seem to tend to crave for something to complain about. If they live in perfect harmony they'll find something to complain about, trust me. This is what amazes and disturbs me. If they suddenly find themselves in a world of chaos they'll probably wake up and start thinking, but it's a shame that this is apparently the only way to wake them up.

The example I mentioned is probably too old. 50 years ago when people were in a crisis they tended to try and look out for each other, but in modern times they probably do their best to take care of themselves and care little about others(?). I guess this depend on the people...

In Norway we have lots of Serbian refugees (sorry I don't really know the difference between the two types of Serbs, but I think we have them both), and they all act very 'civilized' and don't do much crime like many other refugees. I've worked with many serbs, and they were all really great guys, people to trust and respect. This indicates that your people have experienced something in your lifetime that you will probably never forget and that have changed you into individuals of reflection, and you are probably people to be trusted in a crisis situation whether you'd like to admit it or not...

(And by the way, I'm a little amused every time I hear an American who says that they've experienced war for so long, while actually they haven't had a war in their backyard since the civil war (not counting 10-11). Sending people off to fight in distant lands is not the same as having a war in your backyard, where foreign soldiers burn your house and kill your children. I'm sorry if this offends Americans, but it's true.)

But what I really meant with my view is that if everyone had gone through what you (serbs) have, and I mean EVERYONE, the world would most likely be a better place to live in, since we'd all have learned the value of staying alive and how to do it, instead of finding a good excuse to ask our rich parents for more allowance...

You know what though. Us Humans just plain ol' HAVE to fight. It's our last instinct (sides that little attactation...to the ladies... (or men for the gals)) making a cruel comeback. We'll keep on fighting forever, it's the instinct that we'll never evolve out of. Imagine it, Aliens come to our galaxy once we travel space, we'd probably take a few years off the wars to kill 'em and then go back to slaughtering each other.

I think that Canada has the best Social life style, we have everything: pension, multiculturalism...etc... the only bad thing thats happened for a while in Canada is the Libreals and thier scams... Do you all remeber that thing in Rowanda where those Hidi's and Tuties (w/e) started killing each other? Then the U.N. goes in and soon as the U.N. leaves they go back at killing each other. The U.S. should've just bombed the hell out of 'em (a few dozen cruise missles in the middle of the battlefield might change thier minds about fighting!) Sorry if that is insulting to anyone.

Our language barriers are kinda distorting our posts here..

I respect all countires (save a few with notable reasons). More so I respect the people in the counties. However, look at it on a family scale.. I would sooner risk my life to save a family member then risk it for a stranger.

One thing that we americans are lacking (for better) is a home war.) The war of 1812 was argueably the last war that was fought on American soil. So we have grown up rather, secluded, secure in our own ways. And its done pretty good for us. It doesn't stop the fact though that people want to kill us because were Western, and so should we each alone try to confront this threat? Nay, we unite... --->nationlism.

The day Doomed goes over to Iraq and asks a jihadi for world peace is the day I lay down my pride full flag and join the world in singing some hippy dipity song..

Funny thing, almost every time me a a frind of mine are out on town, we start observing, and say to each other "no wonder no aliens will make contact yet. Look how we behave!" All the drunk people dancing silly, people jumping up and down for no reason at all, people jumping on one foot over to the bar to get a another beer, people drinking, laughing, crying then puking.. (I'm not sure how it is where you guys live, but it's like that here).

I'm sure if any aliens were advanced enough to even travel here, they would have no problems killing us should they want to, and we would never even know what hit us (some legends say this has already happened once thousands of years ago).

There's the source of the very problem, channler, we are all fighting different enemies. My enemy is any human that takes advantage of another human, of an injustice. As Che said, anyone who trembles indignation at every injustice is a brother of mine. Your enemy is anyone who opposes the United Staes, or at least that is nationalism. With us or against us is nationalism. Patriotism has very little difference the way it's treated by Americans today. I find nationalism, masked as patriotism, a plague in the US. It's why flag waving gets me as wryled up as flag burning to you, because to me the people who are waving the flaga re standing against the very principles the flag was founded on, distorting it for their own gains.

So yes, to be honest it is my plan eventually to come to a jihadist the same way I would any other human being. If they have a holy war against me, they are fighting the wrong enemy the same way the United States army is. I don't believe world peace is possible, but I believe t's something that should be sought anyway.