Question: Would you rather risk your life for say, a US criminal, or for a Canadian Police officer?
The point of this question is: Would you rather sacrifice yourself for a scumbag that is of your nation, or for somebody who was fighting injustice his\her whole life, but isn't of your nation?

And I'm curius what countries you disrespect? And can you tell me the notable reasons?

Who wants to kill you because you're western?

To gather up and defend your country from the invaders? I call that patriotism, but our languages may have diffrent definitions of it.

I know this question was directed at Channler, but I couldn't help stating: Heck, the Canadians seem bent on protecting our criminals from our law enforcement officials.

A lot of people want to kill us (Weterners) because we're "Western", those include: . . . okay I'm stuck there, I can only speculate that many people would prefer us dead, not because we're wetern, but because of our policies.

I'd also like to inquire that besides our geographical location, what makes us Western? A geographical location seems like a strange reason to hate my guts.

Of course we are fighting different enemies. Why did the Popes call for crusades into the Holy Land? Largely to try to quell the fighting that had been plauging Europe. To have a common enemy has only been in practice for so long.

Call me incredibly short sighted, or impervious to what the future might bring, but I have no faith that there will ever be peace, nor the end of nationalism, or anything along their lines.

Why? Someone already related to it earlier. Man is made to fight, its ingrained in our head, our bodies. As sad as that may be... I'll continue later.

Sorry to change the subject so abruptly but:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4774639.stm

Well, I just got a "little" ticked off after reading this article.

First: We're deploying the national guard to throw desperate people back across the border? The guards aren't protecting us from anything, except orange-pickers willing to work for $2 dollars an hour and a bag of oranges to take home at the end of the day.

Second: Honest immigrants? I think Mr. President means honest Mexican immigrants, or anyone else who doesn't look like him. What about those honest strictly European immigrants?

About jobs Americans won't do, like picking oranges. All the "dishonest" immigrants allready have those jobs, is he going to replace them with "honest immigrants"?

New ID cards for legal foreign workers? I suppose soon all those "evil Mexicans" who're are busy stealing our jobs will have to wear a patch emblazoned with the Mexican flags at all times for easy sorting.

What law did they break? I know theres some law that probably restricts their access into the US, but what is the point of that law?

I suppose its meant to keep "Hispanics" from becoming the majority in America.

Learn English! Are we culturally intolerant now as well. As far as I know English is only the de facto language of the United States and not an official requirement (yes I know it would probably be hard to get around in America without knowing English.) It isn't our common identity as Americans, our common identity as Americans is a respect for all people of the world, their cultures included, and tolerance for newcomers who seek better lives in our nation. If you want to become an American, should it be mandatory you know English? At the current growth rate, the largest group of people in the United States near the end of my lifetime would probably be people who're considered "Hispanic". This, however, is only an assumption.

Again I state world peace isn't possible, but it should be sought after. I'm not saying man is meant to fight, because men all over the world exist without violence. Fighting is a cultural thing. Hunting a survival thing, but nothing about man requires him to fight. Human beings are forced into war becase of the society they live in, where borders alienate people from each other.

Actually I will disagree here. I don't see man in general as wired to fight. Yes we evolved from a predatory state and emotions do often lead to violent actions, but we are also social species of small groups. We can abide and even need the company of others around us. The vast majority of violence and war of man against man is really attributed to a small number of men throughout history. The problem is that we are wired to follow the dominant member of the group or leader. The vast majority of people do not know or want to think for themselves. They will follow orders and ways of thinking based on what their leader/religion/authority figure tells them to think or do. In all the wars that were fought in the middle ages do you think that the majority of soldiers wanted to be on those battlefields? Most were worried that they may not be home in time to bring in the years crops. They were only there because someone somewhere ordered them into battle either directly or through manipulating them into believing it was the right thing to do.




I would just like to say Doomed that I disagree with alot of your views on the world, but I must say I really admire your Passion for your viewpoints. I sincerely do hope that you keep such passion for your ideals as you grow older. It is so easy to grow jaded the more time you spend on this planet and realize that very little changes throughout time. People will probably be making the same mistakes in 100 years as they are today, which were the same mistakes being made 100 or 1000 years ago.


To Milanius and Hypno -
I have to say reading your posts, I had no idea whatsoever that we were so ill-thought of at the time. I must admit that America has a bad habit of jumping into foreign affairs without thinking things through first. Personally, I don't remember much about the whole conflict that took place in your country so pardon my ignorance on the subject. The news coverage of it here was very poor. I have to ask though... looking back, what would have happened realistically if America had not intervened?



Actually learning English is a requirement for immigrants when they apply for citizenship. My problem isn't that the illegal immigrants are here, nor do I feel they are taking away jobs from Americans. I completely agree that most Americans certainly wouldn't want most of the jobs that they perform.

My problems is that they are here illegally. There is a proper way to apply for and become a citizen of this country. We want the people that live in this country to have a certain respect for the laws which govern us. Living here illegally is already showing a disrespect for our laws. I certainly wouldn't expect to go to another country and not abide by their laws while I am there. I applaud those that are willing to come here and make a better life for themselves, but to do so by undercutting those that are citizens is not the right way to go about it. By undercutting I mean of course that they are feeding on the prosperity here without actually helping contribute to the whole. The vast majority of them do not pay taxes, yet still have children that attend our publicly paid schools and/or use other social programs. I am all in favor of granting those that are already here citizenship, if and only if, they also are willing to show a little bit of respect for the laws of the land in which they are choosing to live in and follow the procedure for becoming citizens. To not do so is a big slap in the face to every immigrant from around the world who struggled hard to earn their citizenship here.

This post has been edited by Neela: May 19 2006, 05:47 AM

Have you ever pushed someone in anger?

You are NOT human if you do not experience anger, fear, hate, love, greed, charity, etc. etc. etc.

Perhaps Yoda said it best..






Neela you are horribly wrong with this. You must not live near/in a ghetto, or even around a bunch of punks that think they are something else.

How many people called for war against their own brethren in the Civil War? Or how about when people learned the atrocities of Hitler and his ghoonies? Or even possibly how about when we watched on TV as two planes crashed into the World Trade Centers, how many people called for war against the terrorists? But these were also good people, very social people. People that loved their family, people that gave to charity. Some that went to church, others that despised it.

Believe it or not, but we were united in our anger, perhaps even our hatred.

But Channler, it was not forced, it was not natural instinct, it was cultural conditioning, social distinction. Any man can get angry enough to be violent, and violence comes off hate, but violence is different from WAR. Conflict is not the same thing as war.

If this weren't true, then how come depending on your culture you can become angry for compeltely different reasons? How come when faced with murder, some cultures force the murderer to replaced their victim's place in society and work for the victim's family their entire life or face exile? Some cultures have the capacity not to be violent, in general. Others think war is unthinkable. To certain cultures, and smaller, less "civilized" societies, the idea of world peace is as natural as making love. Hate brings more hate, and violence brings more violence, but love also brings more love, and peace brings more peace.

So, sure, we're locked in a globally war-torn world where the numbers of people that want to bring more war greatly out number those that realize the error of society, but it doesn't mean that violence is natural. Culture, however, is natural, and violence is very much ingrained in the global culture.

On the whole immigrant thing...

This is long overdue. (We've been debating this in school for awhile)

To address the whole 'mexican vs european immigrant' thing, we can't exactly send the border patrol to guard us from next-door Germany. Especially since it isn't next door.

I agree totally with allowing (current) illegal immigrants to become citizens; finally, they'll pay taxes to pay for their education that they would otherwise get for free. You know we have scholarsshipsfor illegal immigrants. It's rewarding them for being criminals. When they become citizens, then they are on par with everyone else; they pay the same taxes for the same benefits.

It kind of angers me that the children of illegal immigrants go to the same school as me, when their parents don't put a dime towards it.

That's the whole thing in a nutshell really, TAXES. It is understandable that people in poorer or repressive countries want to come to the US, but to do so illegally means that they do not pay taxes. And like Dantrag said, they reap alot of benefits from it that they do not contribute taxes towards.

I also used to work with Puerto Rican people who worked 6 months on their green card, which gave them about 3 times the money they'd have made in Puerto Rico and then they return there that much richer. Not only that but they give their green card to their cousin or friend and he uses it for 6 months and does the same thing all over again. Like some racket they are playing on our country and sending and spending all the money they make back in the home country.

The language problem is something else entirely. Polish people can learn perfect English within one or two generations of being here. It is not that Hispanics are more stupid. NO, they are more proud. And they mostly claim that they colonized the states first and so why should they learn English. I wasn't surprised at all when they tried to make Spanish the official first language of Miami.

But like Neela said, you wouldn't go to a foriegn country and purposely break their laws. Why be so arrogant about your heritage? If its that primary in your life, you should have stayed where your allegience lies.

Alright, my opinion on this draws a lot of anger out of everybody I've argued with, and in fact this the one topic in debate I can rarely win supporting my own, complicated viewpoint.

But here's the thing, people pissed off at immigrants are pissed off at people who are suffering and trying to make something for themselves and survive and support families. When your family can't afford food or medicine, I'm sure many of you would find your priorities as far as patriotism and ridiculous laws to rearrange a little.

Really, Immigration is just one of many repercussions the United Staes and other countries have had to face because of the Global Class War. People say they're stealing our money and our jobs and because the money is going to their countries it's not helping the economy at all, but the United States has this economy from... get this, taking the money from them.

And of course the American Citizens didn't do it, but take the Pacifics right now, U.S. "territories" (Ahem, colonies) have people moving in shiploads to New Zealand, because in these U.S. "Territories" there are no laws against child labour and sweat shops. That's right, clothing manufactured here can be bannered "Made in the US" but are still made in Sweat Shops.

My friend from New Zealand tries to say he's not a racist, but that he aginst the hamster cave Islanders, and that if that meant he was racist he didn't care, but he tried to come up with a whole lot of reasons, like they're lazy and violent. In fact, since they started immigrated, gang violence in New Zealand has shot up the roof. But, that's because of a state of poverty, they go to NZ looking for a better situation and find themselves locked in poverty. Poor people fight each other, it's sort of a "divie and conquer" thing. In fact, as Malcolm X pointed out later in his life, all racism is "Divide and Conquer."

The immigrants are not the problem, they come to the United States not to reap off our benefits, but to work hard and make someething of their lives. Illegal Immigrants are the one group of people following the American Dream most closesly.

I'd also like to point out to Dantrag, like 1/4 of a penny of every tax dollar goes into Education. What those illegal immigrants aren't paying for is the military control that has been supporting fascist control from the very countries they came from. Frankly, if I came from Chile I wouldn't be paying American hamster cave Taxes either.

Your friend is greatly misinformed, crime rates have "shot up" in most developed country because crimes started getting reported. Pacific islanders ARE over represented in prisions but they are also over represented in many universities, the reason they are over represented in prisions is because most of them come over here quite poor while Europeans need to be rich to come here, and poor people are over represented in prisions everywhere. So yes, tell your friend he is stupid

And I don't see why people make such a big deal over immigrants, not starving people or letting them suffer shouldn't be conditional on taxes. They still add to the US economy where nobody else will, and they do that without rights, do you think they go to the police when they need help? Do you think they go to the hospitial when they get sick? Do you think they go on the streets to protest? If you do then you are greatly confused, those are the legal ones who give a f*ck, the illegal ones aren't supid enough to do that. And I don't see what is wrong with people who earn money don't a job which an American couldn't/wouldn't selflessly sending money back to their poor families, that is what liberity is all about.



And if you were adopted from a poor family then you would leave school. Ha I doubt you would. Just because they lived a worse life than you doesn't mean they can't live a better one than you. Schooling isn't done just for fun, its done as an investment into working citizens.

Do you know how much a fourth of a penny is, when everyone pays it?

Besides, you're saying that because it doesn't cost all that much, it's free for the taking. Well tell me this; if a piece of gum only costs ten cents, does it make it okay to steal it? I say no.



On the same train of thought here. Getting even public education for free is stealing. Because everybody pays for it, except those who are here illegally. You're basically saying that them stealing education is justified because they are poor.

I know I sound like a total boat here, but it's the truth. There is a legal way to become a citizen here, and everyone should go about it in that way. They only hurt themselves by not becoming a citizen anyway. How can they hope to have a brighter future when the only jobsthey can get are ones that pay under the table?

This makes their free education almost worthless doesn't it?

This post has been edited by Dantrag: May 20 2006, 06:59 PM

Just a question regarding the illegal immigrants in the US: Don't they get discovered when they send their children to public schools?

I mean when you send kids to school you have to give out all sorts of information regarding who you are and where you live, and of course your social security number, right? So when the teachers or principal or who ever is in charge of the pupil/student checks this, it will be discovered that the parents are illegal immigrants? Or I guess not since it is discussed here, but I was just wondering why no one checks this? I mean it takes a few minutes to check this info, minutes that could save you country billions of dollars in illegimate social/school payouts.

Of course it would be a shame for the kids not to be able to go to school, but at least the parents would be detected and could choose if they would like to become tax-paying citizens or leave the country, giving the children a better chance to become 'legal' citizens either in the US or where they came from. Children growing up with chronically criminal parents will most likely become criminals themselves.

The principals, teachers, etc., don't want to report it. That's really the extent of it.

My friend didn't say that, my friend just commented on how much he hates Islanders.

I am not misinformed, pacific islanders immigrate to New Zealand impoverished, and represent a large portion of gang violence. Many Islands in Pacifics are United States Colonies, you can look at up in any statistics, they always report the same thing, the Islands in the pacific that are Unites States Colonies, or just failed states in themselves, have a huge emmigration rate to New Zealand, legal alone since they can mark the illegal. They go there because they have no choice, the Islands, expecially US colonies, are heavily oppressed, filled to the brink with sweat shops, under pay being notorious.

And poor people fight each other, they always have. They do in the US, they do in New Zealand.

But, you missed my point, I was drawing a connection because it's an easier example since everyone who's read about modern economics knows the common people of the Pacific Islands are oppressed beyond reason, and about the effect is has on New Zealand.

Funny you'd ask these questions, because here in Florida we have a resounding "Yes" to all of them. On any given weekend, the police spend an inordinate ammount of time breaking up fights and settling domestic squabbles of illegal immigrants, who do ont pay taxes for police services.

Go to any public hospital emergency room and you'll see it packed with illegals waiting for hour upon hour for free medical treatment. Not meant to be free, but they simply don't ever pay. They use emergency rooms the way most people use their doctors, thus clogging the emergency rooms for everyone, especiallly those who are insured, pay their bills and have an emergency that can wait a bit for others more serious to be attended to.

And as to protests? Orlando just had the largest ever protest in our history staged by illegal immigrants from everywhere and foreign nationals who all wanted President Bush to lighten up on the immigration laws to this country. I'm not sure but I think the prez pretty much squashed everyone's dreams, or so rumor has it.


I will never be against immigration from one country to another. I myself am only 2nd generation American on the maternal Polish side. But I do believe strongly in embracing the mores and customs of the new country, at least enough to fit in. That's not to say that if I moved to Europe, for instance, I wouldn't seek out the English speaking sector of the country I was in just so I could communicate at first and feel some sense of community...but I would be ferociously learning the native language at the same time and immersing myself in their TV, radio, books and magazines in order to try to learn my new language as swiflty as possible.

In the US there is 11 million illegal immigrants and 40 million legal ones. Given the US's history of arresting protesters, if the illegal immigrants came to one then the police could have a field day arresting protesters legally for once. Illegal immigrants can't protest because they don't vote, no vote, no voice, that is how democracy works. How do you know they are illegal? You'll find most illegal ones don't want to be deported.



Education is given not paid for. Higher levels of income leads to higher economic prosperity, hence why it is called for an investment. And your parents didn't pay their taxes for your education, if they never had a child then their taxes wouldn't be returned to them, they paid their taxes for their own education and to educate other people so those people can become model citizens and contribute to the economy. Your are stealing no matter if your parents paid taxes because they never paid taxes for you. After this revelation will you leave school or turn yourself into the police? No, I don't think you will so don't bother trying to claim the high ground.

And stop contradicting yourself, people are umbrella seller about how they don't learn English and become a citizen, and yet people umbrella seller when they do learn English and become a citizen because they are "stealing education". Anyone who has read about modern economics knows that taxes isn't the only way to contribute to an economy, the other way is by providing labour, and since they don't get paid minimum wage they provide more labour than the average American and provide more to the economy, besides if they are working then they do pay taxes whenever their employer sells something or they buy something, who cares if its not directly. Money is only valued for its buying power, by working within the US they increase its buying power leading to an increase of GDP but much more importantly GDH which is the reason money even exists.

And lastly, I'm sure all the illegal immigrants would love to become citizens, but if you remember your constitution was broken and free immigration was replaced by a lottery. The founding fathers wanted a multicultural nation but these days American values are wasted on Americans.

And the only reason it's given is because tax-paying citizens pay for it. Which really means, it's paid for, not given. .

Okay, granted, my parents didn't directly pay for my education, and people with no children don't pay for their children's education. But still, people living in this country illegally are being rewarded for being criminals in a sense, by not having to pay for things that a normal American does.



I didn't contradict myself at all. I was saying that the illegal immigrants were stealing education. Once they're legal and pay taxes like the rest of us, there's no problem, which is why I support allowing them citizenship.

Personally, I would rather them support the economy through taxes; it's a better life. If they were given citizenship, then they could actually get a decent job that pays well. And yes, they would pay taxes, but they would get a better working environment as well as better pay.

This post has been edited by Dantrag: May 21 2006, 08:02 AM

But dantrag, would you push that opinion far enough to say... join my side of the fence, where I stand for the original beliefs of the founding fathers?

Come in your huddle masses, come all the oppressed people of the world, all people seeking freedom, all people trying to escape their fate and start a new life, come to this new world, and we'll build a country off that.

That's how they thought of America when they first constructed it.