I always find it funny that a country whose population is based on unchecked and unregulated immigration gets peeved at illegal immigrants.

Anyway, in the UK we're having a HUGE asylum debate, because of certain things that are going on - illegal immigration being one of them. My personal favorite is that some Afghans hijacked a plane, landed in the UK, and we can't deport them because it would breech their human rights.

Still, my opinion on asylum is this. If you are trying to flee a regime of terror, you go to the first safe place you can find. When the Jews were persecuted by the Nazis, they fled to the first safe place they could. Full respect, there isn't anything wrong with that.

What annoys the hell out of me is these people who claim asylum in the UK, having travelled through countries such as Germany, Holland, Belgium and France - none of which are currently engaged in a violent civil war.

You flee to the first country you can (and then, if needs be, other countries help that country deal with it through the proper governmental channels). You don't flee across mainland europe and sneak across 30 miles of water just because you fancy your chances at exploiting the British system.

Most people don't mind that they are coming here, but I think even the founding fathers thought they would join the whole and help contribute as a member of the new society instead of leeching off the benefits.

If being 'illegal' is so difficult as many are using as a defense for it, then why do they remain 'illegal'. Clearly the benefits of not contributing as citizen must outweigh the risk of being exported again if found.


Ultimately though the problem is actually more easily solved than trying to round up those that refuse to go through the citizenship process. Focus on the businesses that are exploiting them as cheap labor. Enact laws that come with such heavy penalties and fines that businesses will ensure that their labor force are US citizens. Enforcement of the law is also key, because that is simply how we have arrived at an astounding 11 million illegal immigrants in the first place. We chose to overlook the problem for so long because we felt that 'it was just people looking for a better life'. This isn't just a small annoyance anymore. 11 million is a significant portion of our population. There are alot of countries around the world that don't have that many people.

There are two kinds of injustice in motion with the current situation. The businesses that exploit the illegals as cheap labor, paying them extremely low wages and the injustice that the illegals are using social benefit programs that they themselves are not contributing members. Why is there no outcry against these injustices when both could be eliminated if they just became full-fledged members of the society?

To boil my opinions down alot....

I support allowing illegal immigrants currently staying in the US citizenship, while trying our best to keep others out.

Ah, Neela, see for that I think to make the best situation for all human beings is to make becoming a US citizen as easy as finding a consulate building and applying. And, they do contribute very much as it is, they're not just leeching off the benefits. They come to this country specifically to work hard and make their lives better, taxes aren't the entire equation. (Less than half the taxes count anyway, since 56% is military).

But, think about it, that would just overpopulate the United Staes and make getting jobs impossible, the only REAL solution is to make life better in Mexico, and they few ways to that are abolish NAFTA, stop funding the puppet government and the freaking IRP will dissolve on it's own for not favoring democracy, and that scum-bucket Salinas can collapse on his own fat.

What I find interesting is, our forefathers didn't give a hoot about immigration laws. It was: jump on a boat, sail to North America, kill the native american men, rape their women, settle down on a piece of their land, and *poof* we have America.

Now we're trying to close the door behind us, and lock it.

And what about Canadians, it would be silly to say that many of them don't come here to find a better life. You know how many Canadians are coming to the US and taking jobs? A lot.

Sure, there are plenty of illegal immigrants, but its different for everyone. It would certainly be easier for someone of French or British origin to apply for US citizenship then it would be for a Mexican whos great grandmother was raped long ago by some Spanish guy, because of the public perception of certain people.

Illegal immigrants children should go to school, assimilation is what I'd refer to it as, and its good. We needn't hassle them, in fact, we should give them every reason to be proud of America.

If my government makes a law, I'll respect it, but I won't hesitate to voice my opinion. Someone stated earlier, I don't really care who it is because this statement was rather offensive, that if someone is more proud of one country than another they should go to where their allegiance lies.

Just to let whoever it was know:

I live in a nation where our constitution grants me the right to voice my opinion. Its not treason if I do so, and it certainly doesn't mean I'm not proud of my nation. The thing is, it appears you think that people who prefer Spanish over English should go and live in a Spanish speaking country. This is rather strange, America is a melting pot of cultures, and the government should provide services in all the major languages spoken in America. English is not a unifying language, look at the debate its causing.

It was me and I didn't mean to be offensive. But I wonder if you've ever waited at a bus stop in San Antonio Texas and felt like a total stranger because everyone around you is speaking Spanish and yes, you are the outsider in your own country. Or have you lived in a poorer section of Tampa and found that all your neighbors disregard you with contempt? Why?? Again - you are the outsider who doesn't speak Spanish, the neighborhood language. Why, you might even be a spy for Immigration...

Yes I've been offended in my own country but I didn't mean to offend.

Putting my statement on the other foot ... let's say I a Floridian move to Belgium. But, I constantly state to everyone I meet (who understands English) that everything is better in Florida - the weather, the people, the buildings, the customs, the fashions, the food, everything. And I dress only in Florida fashion and I speak only ParrotHead English and I refuse to learn the native languages of Belgium, I just expect all government and private enterprises to cater to me and speak & write in English.
That I expect to use all the social programs but pay no taxes. That I am in fact sending almost my entire illegal paycheck back to Florida to my husband. That I pay no taxes but want all the services and privileges that Belgian citizens get. Would you like me for a resident of your country? Why don't you fill your whole country with people just like me and see how well things go??? No offense!


To take your own words, which are so true - America is the "melting pot" society and like it or not, English is the sauce that binds everyone together in a nice, understandable flavor. In order for any society to work well, communication is key. That doesn't really mean that it is the government's job to print up information in every East Islander language, Bornio script, Hindustani, etc. and every other remote or populace natiionaliity who may find their way to our shores. They come here cause they know the rules and they like them ... that's why they gave up home & hearth to come to America. It is resoundant upon them to learn the language and the customs and of course - add their own wonderful flavor - customs, fashions, languages, mores, etc. to the mix that is American. We are varied, we are children of rogues, pirates and princes, we are determined, we are proud, we are free .... welcome to the mosh pit!

============

And just on an aside note to Neela's good idea concerning affecting the businesses who hire illegal aliens as workers .... (this may very well be offensive!) But I can only just see the look on the huge, uneducated, indolent, never worked before Welfare Mother's faces if they were ever told that there is no more free dole for their kind in this country and that they will be earning their keep by picking oranges for a living.
No way would I ever want to stick around for what they've got to say about it.

Edit* I've thought about this and before I come off sounding like a raging anit-hispanic I must note that I've worked with many Hispanic people, have been to Spain, have friends who are Hispanic and read Spanish way better than I can speak it but can speak it on a level of rudumentary conversations.
The people from Spain, Central and South America that I've worked with were not here illegally and respected the laws and customs of the US, plus whatever business we worked in.
What I am against is illegal occupancy anywhere ... whether it be squatters in an apartment or on land, depriving the landlord of a just income or people just squatting in a country, with no intention of getting along in the normal ways.

This post has been edited by Ibis: May 22 2006, 09:20 AM

What would happen is that Kosovo would still be Serbian country. It was Serbian for centuries, and It should have stayed ours for senturies. We wouldn't have refuges banished from their homes. We wouldn't have our churches demolished, that are here from the very begining of Serbian civilisation (I say Serbian, not south Slovenian).

I will start from the begining. Kosovo was our land. But then, Albanians, that have their country nearby, started emigrating into Kosovo. They started having 15 childern per family, just to make a huge number. One day they rebelled, and wanted Kosovo as their own country, with absolutly no valid arguments why should it be theirs. Normaly, to stop the rebellion, our president sent an Army to deal with the rebells, and get the Serbs back their homes from which they were banished. Read this article. It's not entierly true, but what is true is that refugees are not in their homes and that NATO ''made a mistake''. Hmph.

USA had no right to interfier. That was our war, and only we and Albanians should fight it. If we had our way, Kosovo would still be ours, and the rebells would be dealt with. By rebells, I mean people who from UCK who are mere terrorists.

The real reasons for America interfiering are offcourse not known. Ordinary people never know the truth. Never. Just like the Americans don't know the thruth why are they in war with Iraq. Or do you really think USA is there to free Iraq from a terrorist? I have some theories, but I would rather keep them to myself

If you have any questions, feel free to ask

EDIT: I told you a kinda simplyfied version of the story. It all happened that way, but not all is black and white. Milošević showed himself a horrible polititian, by not accepting the NATO demands, and not being flexible at all. Demands that we later had to grant. Such as the bigest USA base in Europe. There is no logic being a small poor country, and be in war with 36 (I think) the most developed countries in the world. If only Russians didn't sold us out. There was a deal to get the new AA systems from Russia, but they canceled it due to US fonding. So much for ''Serbs our brethren''.

This post has been edited by HyPN0: May 24 2006, 06:32 AM

I always find Albania really funny. If only for King Zog.

Watch it Foster, my whole family emigrated from Albania to the U.S to escape King Zog, he may be comical to you, but h'e s tyrant to me.

No, I'm kidding.

So I have a little wuestion, what do you guys think about Mexico legalized personal use rations of all drugs? I'm thinking I know a lot of people that will be moving to Mexico.

Mexico is a poor country AFAIK. I don't think that someone from USA would go live in a poor country just because the drugs are legal. Well, except for junkies. But then, they won't have money for those strong drugs. So, it's a really bad idea, unless you can think of a good scam. Get money from USA, live in Mexico. Jackpot.

But, I belive you can expect a bit more smugglers. Now that everyone knows from where they can get it, they just have to think of a creative way to actualy get it over the border. Any ideas?

For Mexico, this is a good thing. They can expect a lot of $$$ from tourists. For US? Well, depends from which angle you look at it. If you're a junkie, drugs will be cheaper ( which is good). If you hate drugs, it's horrible. Either way it's a bad thing overall. I do support marijuana, but I'm against anything stronger that can screw up you life. I think a lot young Americans would be tempted to try cocain or any similar garbage, if it's cheap. I hope for the best, and fear for the worst

Anyway, this is just a quick thought, in which I am not sure. Actualy I'm making some conclusions just based from common sence
If you would be kind to tell me a little bit more about it?

Actually, Hypno, my good man, you have told a compact, precise version of OUR side of the story - but, of course, nothing is ever black and white...


Albania isn't funny, man. It is a small ex-communist country, littered with corruption and powerty and criminals but they are people just like everyone else, they only had it rough... the only thing their leaders ever did was to aim all their nation's efforts against Serbia - it was like that 200 years ago and it's still like that now. Instead of talking I fear that we'll be looking each other over the fence for many more years.

p.s.: Although we're not much of a news or even a significant factor, there is one news from the region and you'll notice the change from my Location - The referendum about Montenegro's independence has succeeded and now our last union is shattered... so now we are back where we were in 1840's - apart and surrounded but hey, at least now "I have a name, I have a number..."

Seems to me you have your own version of the story
Can you post it?

Nope, no particular way of looking at things. We & they are all humans, we all live under the same sun - the only thing is, we will not start talking any time soon, I fear Kosovo must have a future, one way or the other, but the Albanians themselves MUST realise that people who were commiting attrocities over Serbs, Roms and other non-Albanian nations, as well as drug-dealers, gun smugglers and slave traffikers can't and won't lead them into future [European Union]... the sooner we all figure that out, that the corrupt politicians (read: ex-criminals) cannot validly represent a country, the better the things will become in Kosovo and all of Serbia.

This is the one thing we all can agree on, and what really matters. Instead of fighting each other we should work together to eliminate pollution and make our planet a good place for everyone to live on, and to find ways to spread our seeds to other worlds. We'll all have to leave Earth one day anyway when our star becomes too bright, so we might as well start preparing now...

Yes, actually it is. It isn't "our" nation to begin with. Please define who "our" refers to.

Does it belong to Chief Wiggum, of the Wiggum Tribe.


I don't think you are really understanding the message I'm trying to convey.

This nation does not belong to anyone in particular. No one has the right the say what language people should know. Quite frankly I'm just fine with English, but I respect the right of everyone else. In my school their are some very anti-foreign people, especially the teachers. Whether its more out of ignorance, or just plain hatred, I'll probably never know.



Thanks to the sun we have 'racial" categories such as Black and White. Thank you sun.


This post has been edited by gamer10: May 25 2006, 09:30 PM

Ummm, I don't quite understand what you wanted to say by that.
Please, clear it out for me.

Well without the sun none of us would even have existed...

And Ibis is right (or at least I think this is what she meant): No land really 'belongs' to anyone. I mean we humans have existed for a few million years, while the lands have existed for billions of years. Why should a piece of paper written by one of us 'freshmen' mean that we can claim something that existed long before us? The world belongs to all of us and none of us. Simple as that.

I don't get it...

Hes saying that living under this same sun has made of devided, and I agree. Hard to stand under something that darkened the pigments in your skin and say, "Hey! Where the same!"

Anyways... Heres is one important fact to the immigration debate.

Illegal - Prohibited by law

Immigrant - A person who leaves one country to settle in another

Illegal + Immigrant = ???

They are in the wrong, I don't see citizens who evade taxes getting far away from the IRS.

And anyways, I see let em become citizens. Inforce the learning of english and give them basic civic jobs that pay a fair wage. First step.

About the sun, the sun and weather are very hot in Africa, Australia, ect. which gave the early humans living there darker skin colour. Because it isn't as hot in places like Canada and Northern European countries, the first humans to move there (or that were born there) developed lighter skin. Its a lot more complicated than that, but its a quick summary.

Now, I'm not a big fan of borders and land laws, but the Illegal immagrants are in the wrong. Skipping customs and taking illegal jobs is illegal and cannot be allowed. If the American Government were to give fair (aka enormous) fines to companies that hire illegal immigrants and force them to pay all workers an equal, fair pay, there would be no incentive to hire illegal immagrants. After this, the American government could make laws to make legal immagration easier like more customs offices, an easier customs system and more customs workers. These combined with deporting all childless Illegal immagrants would help ease the current problems.