The Unbeliever, Oblivion's moral issues Options

[DoomedOne]

So a tiny thing brought up in the main forums are the ideas of moral values.

In The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever by Stephen R. Donaldson the main character chooses not to accept this dream world as reality and therefore finds it okay to rape a young girl.

In the main forum this topic was slashed and flamed in all three threads it made an appearance because people did not understand the idea. It's simple, if you accept a world as fake, whether you realize you're dreaming, or you're in a video game, do the moral laws you would usually uphold yourself to still stand? Would you suddenly find it okay to exercise the most evil, atrocious side of your personality and find it pleasurable, to your character, at least, to murder and mutilate?

This question has a bigger purpose, but first I'd like some people's opinions on where they stand when it comes to morality and video games. If they created a video game where the suffering of your victims looked parallel to if you were performing the act in real life, would you still be able to go through with it?

This post has been edited by DoomedOne: Sep 8 2005, 12:37 AM

[Soulseeker3.0]

I don't know, Of coure in real life, right now, it is easy to say "No, I won't do that or I could never kill a man in that situation (etc)" but when you are acctually there it would be hard to, uhh (sorry looking for the word ), uphold your morals that you would keep in real life.

Like is somebody acctually came up and could convince me that this world is a fake, then I would probebly, no without a shadow of a doubt, would have the urge to that sort of thing. But like I said easy to say no I would or wouldn't do that but only in that exact possition you would know what you would do.

So those are my two cents, and is that book actually a real book? if so were could I find it?

This post has been edited by Soulseeker3.0: Sep 8 2005, 12:52 AM

[ShogunSniper]

The reason I play videogames is to do things that I can't do in real life. That is IMO the point of playing videogames. However if the situation in the videogame was so lifelike that it was real, then I don't know if I would be able to bring myself to kill a person, or anything else. Intresting topic you brought up. If only I had the attention span at the moment to make a better post for it. Later, perhaps.

[DoomedOne]

No one else has an opinion?

[Intestinal Chaos]

I find this topic very interesting. I have ponderded this exact point several times myself. A game in which only the depraved would be able to act as they do would be a very atrocious abomination to society though Personally the only reason we can act the way we do through talk and simulated play is because it is so unreal we just can't accept it as horribly disgustingly atrocious reality.

But enough of saying what you said back at you. Deep down in my core I'm actually a very caring person, I don't belive now matter how much I disliked someone I couldn't kill them, even if it is a dream. I have the most insane and sickened dreams I have heard from anyone, yet in none of them have I ever done something bad. Even though it is someone else doing something it's still all generated by my mind isn't it? And any victims or whatnot would still be me would it not? I'm trying to get to a point but my mind keeps shutting off. I'll make a better post later.

I don't even want to get on the philosophy that life is but a dream, I spent too long agonizing over wether it was true or not when I was younger.

This post has been edited by Intestinal Chaos: Sep 8 2005, 04:03 AM

[Dantrag]

there's a balance in this somewhere.

Ex. I don't feel bad at all killing someone in a game, but I feel bad if I hurt omeone's feelings in real life.

But, if it was extremely realistic, and I couldn't tell the difference between game and reality, I wouldn't do anything bad.

[Intestinal Chaos]

there's a balance in this somewhere.

Ex. I don't feel bad at all killing someone in a game, but I feel bad if I hurt omeone's feelings in real life.

But, if it was extremely realistic, and I couldn't tell the difference between game and reality, I wouldn't do anything bad.

Exactly my thoughts.

[Zelda_Zealot]

Unless my life (Or the life of someone I care about) is at stake I would not kill someone,
even in Morrowind I approach someone to see if they are hostile before attacking. It is a rare accorence where I kill random NPCs in any game, only if I am in a extremly bad mood, and only because it is fake.

So I guess you could say that even if I knew this world was fake I would still be a nice guy and not go on mass killing sprees. I hold onto my morals tightly and would never lose them in any realistic enviroment.

[Intestinal Chaos]

Unless my life (Or the life of someone I care about) is at stake I would not kill someone,
even in Morrowind I approach someone to see if they are hostile before attacking. It is a rare accorence where I kill random NPCs in any game, only if I am in a extremly bad mood, and only because it is fake.

So I guess you could say that even if I knew this world was fake I would still be a nice guy and not go on mass killing sprees. I hold onto my morals tightly and would never lose them in any realistic enviroment.

It all really depends on which game and what char I'm playing really. Like it is almost impossible to not kill someone in a GTA 3-SA game (belive me I have tried) yet In Morrowind it all depends on who I am.

[Chumbaniya]

I don't think that morality applies when playing videogames for two reasons:

Firstly, the world depicted in the game and all of the characters in it are fictional. For this reason, any immoral act in-game cannot possibly have a negative impact on anything but teh game world, which is there simply to provide you with entertainment. There may be some issues of morality in multiplayer gaming, but this usually concerns the exploiting of other people in which the game is simply the vehicle for exploitation.

Secondly, in a roleplaying game, the idea is to adopt the persona of someone else and act accordingly. If I am playing as someone immoral, I will commit immoral acts. If not, I won't.

I believe it is fundamental to video games to allow people to experience things which they cannot in ordinary life (if they didn't, there would be no point in playing them) and it is no surpirse that two of the most popular ideas in video games are those of fighting and fantasy, as these are things that are interesting to many, but thinsg they would not want in their normal life. Similarly, commiting immoral acts is also something that is a fundamental part of many games because it is something people would not do normally.

[ED 209]

A game is a game is a game. No matter how realistic a game looked, I would have no problem killing, robbing etc. in it. It doesn't hurt anyone, and besides, the better games look the more popular they seem to become, so a lot of people would arguably agree with me, except Hilary Clinton.

[Megil Tel-Zeke]

ah morality issues, such fun complicated and shady area of discussion.

video games, violence, and moality. a very controversial topic indeed. I disagree and will not play games like GTA and other titles whose entire intent if killing, stealing, and other such tasks as it does in its own level lower the level of morility in society. The issue that most often arises, which i believe to be somewhat true is that violent people are drawn to violent video games. But studies have shown that violent video games have SHORT-term influence in people's lives. the good enws is that long term links have not been found, so you won't turn into a cold blooded serial killer for simply playing a video game ofr a few hours.

Personally i think a person's personality influences the morality of the person than does the experience with a video game.

[DoomedOne]

In the book that I mentioned, a man chose to accept the world he was in as a dream world, and therefore felt that the act of rape was not immoral because he was not in the real world.

Video games are just like that, we accept the world is fake, and therefore have no problem performing otherwise immoral acts,

I have three problems with this:

1) The Roleplaying phenomenon. Text book Psychology's name for a startling realization, which is the more you act a certain way, the more it is ingrained in your personality. Roleplaying is a helpful exercise in programs like sexual harassment classes or 12-step programs because they teach you to ingrain certain behaviors into your personality so that in the real world you will act that way. Video games differ, however, because you are not pretending to be somebody or exercizing the personality of somebody else, you're simply looking at the screen, attempting to figure out what the character would do. Violent video games do not make you more violent, that's been proven. However, the Roleplaying phenomenon cannot be completely ignored.

2) Simulated crimes are not victimless crimes. Despite the fact that all suffering in the game world is simulated for you, and therefore you are not actually hurting anyone, in the case of rape and murder, the actor does hurt himself as well as the victim.

3)What about games that have a thinner line between reality and fantasy? Politicians exercize immoral behavior everyday. President Bush misrepresented evidence on Global Warming in favor of his lobbyists that worked for polluting companies. An example of this is you hear the fact, "Volcanoes produce more pollution than humans have for their entire existance." This is false information, generated by uncredible scientists whose information is put above credible scientists because it favors the agenda of these pollution producing businesses. To cover the democrats, during Clinton's administration there was a Columbine school shooting, and while the media was tuned into it Clinton began bombing countries under the radar. These two events are immoral, no one could see themselves misrepresenting information for money or using a tragedy to start wars unnoticed in real life. But that's the thing. There is a human phenomenon where in the instance of a fake world, like a game or a dream, morals don't seem the count to most people, as many of you have stated. These politicians see their actions existing within their own game world because they are so distanced from their effect.

In the end of The Chronicals of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever, the series, he finds out the dream world was as real as his own.

[Soulseeker3.0]

In the end of The Chronicals of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever, the series, he finds out the dream world was as real as his own.

ouch or Ah is what I would normally say in that possition

I wish that was all I could say, almost all I can say, but the mods don't like that but that would stink.

[Redvsbluefan0]

This is somewhat the same question to ask if that for personal gain you would bomb 10,000 people which in itself seem a horrific act, but to see the life each person has and to see their day and the amount they influence the world around them and to dash that all to the ground. In such a position I would surely be a bit less strict in my conduct but if the world was sooo realistic in the first place as to fool me into believing it is real then surely I could not commit such unspeakable act for I would also be stuck in such the world I created.

Any other opinions?

This post has been edited by Redvsbluefan0: Sep 9 2005, 05:44 PM

[Daikirai]

If my actions had no real consiquence, I can imagine that I would be able to kill off three times the world's population and rape every woman I see with a smile on my face and a song in my heart. As far as realism, a certain level of blood or gore would freak me out, definatly. Morally though, as long as I'm not hurting real people, I'd take great pleasure in making my video game alter-ego the ultimate destroyer of lives.

[Kindred Spirit]

I roleplay in every game I play that it is really possible to roleplay in. I completely create my own character, much the way an author of a book does. This character seems to take on it's own life, and often, I will do something, purely for roleplaying, that I wouldn't have chosen to do. I think this is relevant to your question because it depends, who am I being in the videogame? Most of my characters end up being gallant fighters or kind hearted in some way or another. Thus, they would never do anything like that. However, some of my characters are more evil, and would do evil deeds, even when I, myself, would rather not, unless there is a reason not to, as long as there were no impercussions for anyone, then I would have my character do evil deeds.
I wouldn't kill anyone in real life though. I can't think of anybody that I would kill, even if I was given a gun, them chained to a wall, and amnesty for the murder. I simply don't find enjoyment in causing people pain. Now, certain videogames, for example, Halo 2, make you kill people. Those people are unrealistic, and there is no way they could be even closeto real, so I don't care about them.
I used to think like this: Violent videogames are not the cause of violence, they are an outlet for violence. Something that occurred recently in my life has slightly changed my mind.
My little brother is about 11 and a half years old. He plays the most violent games he can find, and he enjoys for example, Mortal Kombat 5 and 6 with the blood turned to maximum. He likes Legacy of Kain:Blood Omen 2. He likes anything disturbingly violent and bloody, inclding any horror movie he has ever seen. I finally talked him into discussing why he doesn't like George Bush, (neither do I, but I have a reason) since his usual response is, "I'm not gonna tell you, jerk." Well, he answered, "He started the war with Afganistan and Iraq over the terrorism. Why didn''t he just bomb them all?" I was horrified. I don't know if he likes bloody things because of his bloodthirstyness, of if the bloody things cause his bloodthirstyness. Either way, it has at least subtly affected my views on videogames.
I really can't answer this question properly, since I don't know what my answer is. While we should try to uphold out morals whenever possible, what if we are roleplaying a character with different morals, or playing a FPS like Halo? There is no clean cut answer.

Btw, I brought up a similar topic in Oblvion General a few months ago. Mine was about the moral implications of "killing" the new RAI. A random picture prize to whoever can tell what the reaction is.

[DoomedOne]

I read it, and the other thread I read included this same book I mentioned and link to that thread.

You. Were. Flamed.

No, it really is frightening when you hear people talk about the real world and real lives with such a lack of respect or empathy. I'm not sure if it's violent video games as much as people just have this me-generation thing going on. I was listening to some older friends talk (around 30 or 40) about how they ought to just turn Iraq and Afghanistan into a parking lot, and I was too shcoked to speak, then the other guy says, "Yeah that's something the younger generation doesn't understand."

One thing that's interesting is the evolution of society though, because like in the 60s there was apparently this huge number of people that locked their doors at night and hid under a pillow waiting for the era to come to an end, and here today we have those people running our government. So I'm thinking, "Wait a second, these are all baby-boomers making these greedy decisions."

As far as videogames, I think it depends on a lot of things, like, the fact that your brother plays a lot of violent video games is not problem, but there probably is link between the huge doses of violence he gets and his violent attitude towards society. Most people don't make that link. The roleplaying phenomenon does not really apply for most role-playing gamers, and most gamers also learned the seperate realities, so they don't take what they get from a gory game and apply it to real life. Some people just don't though.

The question of the Unbeliever though, more applies to real life with a Video-game tie in. I doubt there exists very many human beings at all that could stand to live with a bunch of people from anywhere in the world for one week, and then blow them up, rip them apart, murder their daughters, sisters and wives, etcetera. However, no one spends a week with these people to learn they're human, to learn exactly what it is they're destroying, let alone politicians who get their training either in law school or business school, both of which teach professional ethics over morality. These Politicians that start wars are the unbelievers. They have chosen not to accept the world, the families and cultures they destroy as real.

[Neela]

I just wanted to add some perspective to the whole argument that video games cause kids to become violent. It just isnt true. This is a argument that the media and politicians like to throw around because it appeals to a much older generation to explain the age old "I just don't know what is wrong with kids these days" statement. In truth if you go to the dept. of justice web site and pour over the actual statistics, violent crime actually dropped significantly at the start of the 90's for crimes per 1000 people. In fact this is even more significant because the number of reported crimes is a much higher percentage than it ever was in human history. Further breaking down the criminal backgrounds of those that do commit violent acts shows that most of these people come from extremely poor conditions and those that experience violent "real life" childhoods like abuse, not those that typically grew up with xboxs and computers. The media uses extremely isolated cases such as Columbine to try to describe the picture of crime as a whole. The point really is that I have been playing computer/video games now for almost 26 years (yes I am showing my age..I actually played pong) and have no desire to commit violent acts or have any history of anger issues. It takes far more than playing games to make someone act violently. Something is wrong with them deeper than that. I get really upset when I hear or see news stories especially concerning politicians who point a finger at video games or movies. If you want to take statistics out of context you may as well blame it on ice cream. There is a long standing history of factual statistics that shows that the graph of ice cream sales per month correlates with the number of violent crimes per month. So it must be the ice cream that causes it right? These are both dependent variables on something else that is not even mentioned. In this case air temperature. Higher temperature does correlate with violent crime and ice cream sales. So the argument that video games make violent people is completely false, but more correctly that some people that are violent in nature may also like to play video games.

[Aki]

If a game was that real, I'd probablly be as I usually am in games; that is I wouldn't kill NPCs unless they attacked me, simply pissed me off through actions or their character (like Orvas Dren, stuck up twat... <_< ) or such.

Though, I do occaisonally play a 'evil' character to vent some bloodlust and rage on NPCs. Its probablly could be fun even with them lifelike. Maybe more so when the NPC in question was a total boat. Its often why I play a Werewolf in morrowind - free killing sprees. Or why I crank up the gore when playing NWN, as I particularly like seeing enemies explode when my Shapeshifter/Druid brings his axe down (in minotuar form) on some poor honoured user and he (though unrealistically) explodes.

In real life, of course, that probably wouldn't be as cool, more like sickening. I draw a line between reality and games. I don't like seeing main characters in movies/games/books die like that (hence why I don't like horror movies), a person would be worse.

So, yeah, While I'm generally a good guy in a Video, no matter how realistic it is, I will not hesistate to kill in a video game. Its a game, that character is just a bunch of code and graphics.