Complaining about a piece of Oblivion-given Morrowind lore, abolishing slavery leads to civil war, yeah, but the details... Options

[Kazaera]

(mods, please move this if this is in the wrong place? I couldn't figure out where this topic would go.)

So I was reading up about what happens in Morrowind post-game, according to Oblivion, and ran across this little tidbit.

Apparently Helseth incites a civil war, which he and his allies win, in order to break the power of the Great Houses and consolidate his own. And how he starts this is by banning slavery.

So far, so good. This sort of makes sense, given how fraught slavery is as a topic.

Except. That the civil war apparently happens between Hlaalu and Dres on the anti-slavery side and Redoran and Indoril on the pro-slavery side. Telvanni is Sir Not Appearing In This War.

First, the minor WTFs: Redoran is the in-game house that seems to make least use of slaves, and Indoril seems to be presented as very close to the Temple, also sort of military/religious and not a major slave-owning power either. Since slavery is also a matter of Dunmer tradition and so on, I could buy Redoran and Indoril *supporting* the major slave-owning Houses who protest against this, but have some trouble seeing them being the only ones... considering that of all the houses they would possibly be affected least from everything we've seen. (Hlaalu's got plantations. Worked by slaves.) I also have a lot of trouble seeing Telvanni stand by and do nothing, considering they're very pro-slavery and use slaves a lot.

But all of that pales next to Dres.

I mean, we don't know much about Dres lorewise. But what we do know is that: they are an agricultural House. They have huge, huge plantations that rely solely on slave labour. They are very anti-Imperial, very much Temple-supporters, apparently traditional allies of House Indoril, and very, *very* opposed to abolishing slavery.



I actually considered having slavery outlawed somehow in my Morrowind fic and ending up going "no, that would never happen because Dres would never stand for it." And now apparently, canonically, they not only have but fought a war to abolish slavery???

Especially because... you know, from Dres's description, this would totally ruin their economy.

Of course, apparently (I haven't played Oblivion myself so I'm going off the UESP wiki) you hear rumours that House Dres has "remodelled its economy from an agricultural one to a mercantile one". To which my reaction is twofold:

1. What, overnight?

2. ...if House Dres is the only primarily agricultural Great House, and it magically swaps its economy for one based on trading, then... where is the food coming from?

I have been continually WTFing over this piece of lore since I stumbled across it. Honestly - has anyone been able to make any sense of it? Because I'd love to, really, but I just hit "House Dres" and go "......what."

[Kazaera]

I guess this is the sticking point: like Helena, I'm not seeing how the shift from an agricultural to a mercantile system is small or subtle. It's a total revamping of their economy - giant, giant plantations which will have to be closed down, trading needs to be built up and they won't have any routes or partners even goods to trade with, and as said the food has to come from /somewhere/ and if the lone agricultural house shuts its doors... I suppose Dres could go from growing-food to trading-food but again, it has to come from somewhere so that should probably mean a shift in their trading partners' economies to account for the sudden loss of food producers, and that would also mean a huge change in what foods are even available in Morrowind since I'm not seeing saltrice grown in Cyrodiil or Skyrim (maybe Black Marsh? although I... do not think people in Black Marsh would be very happy to trade, really. The Arnesian War isn't that long ago, and Dres would still have been raiding them for slaves.)

So I keep thinking, it might be possible but it would be huge and probably cause a lot of damage not just to the House but to the rest of the province as well and I can't actually see any motivation for Dres to do it. Maybe, maybe, there is a story behind this of someone who took House Dres by storm, or of a long-running change that had been going on behind the scenes, and if it's true that'd be a very interesting story I'd like to know more about but as things stand I've not seen a single hint of that. (Maybe the "canon" Nerevarine joined House Dres, ha.)

As far as Telvanni goes, I agree overall that they're inclined to just not do anything, I just have more trouble seeing that over slavery than over anything else. Unless Helseth simply isn't *enforcing* the anti-slavery stuff in Telvanni territory! (Which would... actually make sense from his perspective. >>) Although... then again, I can see Telvanni being talked into supporting abolition if it's done carefully, because although they use slaves heavily it seems to be mainly as personal servants (plus one in-game egg mine) and their economy doesn't rely on it the way Dres's does - so they wouldn't be as badly damaged by abolition and their anti-abolition stance seems to be more of a combination of convenience, tradition and "you don't get to tell us what to do". I can also see Telvanni going "okay, you've convinced us via massive diplomatic efforts to go along with abolition, but like hell are we going to fight in your war." So that /sort/ of works.

And re: tradition - I could see Redoran and Indoril fighting against abolition for that reason (Indoril especially, yeah). I just have a lot of trouble seeing a civil war where the Houses fighting against abolition only really have tradition as their argument against it and the two Houses fighting for actually have something to lose - especially when Dres is described as also being very anti-Imperial and pro-Temple and so quite probably at least as inclined to campaign against change solely on tradition grounds as Redoran or Indoril!

The plotline is weird to me because I can see Hlaalu and Dres going to war against Redoran and Indoril and winning with Telvanni staying out of it, and I can see a civil war fought over abolishing slavery and *maybe* (if a lot of diplomacy had been done first...) the abolishing side winning, I just can't see this two things in combination.

[Helena]

I guess this is the sticking point: like Helena, I'm not seeing how the shift from an agricultural to a mercantile system is small or subtle. It's a total revamping of their economy - giant, giant plantations which will have to be closed down, trading needs to be built up and they won't have any routes or partners even goods to trade with, and as said the food has to come from /somewhere/ and if the lone agricultural house shuts its doors... I suppose Dres could go from growing-food to trading-food but again, it has to come from somewhere so that should probably mean a shift in their trading partners' economies to account for the sudden loss of food producers, and that would also mean a huge change in what foods are even available in Morrowind since I'm not seeing saltrice grown in Cyrodiil or Skyrim (maybe Black Marsh? although I... do not think people in Black Marsh would be very happy to trade, really. The Arnesian War isn't that long ago, and Dres would still have been raiding them for slaves.)

This, exactly. Now I'm wondering, where are the reports of a massive spike in the price of saltrice (a staple Dunmer food), and consequent famines and mass starvation? Assuming some people are still continuing to farm saltrice, who is doing it - have some of the ex-slaves agreed to stay on as paid workers? If so, how do the Dres cope with having to treat their former 'posessions' as fellow citizens and employees, and how are the ex-slaves prevented from taking revenge on their former owners? We now have this enormous underclass of suddenly-freed slaves: where do they live, how are they going to be integrated into normal society? Do they have the same social and political rights as free-born citizens? Are they allowed to marry, join Houses, rise to political office?

Answering these questions could make for a really interesting story. If abolition were imposed on the Dres from outside (which, let's face it, is the only way it's going to happen), we might well end up with a scenario just like the one you described. What we actually get in Oblivion is "things are pretty much the same except that the slaves are free now, yayz."

And re: tradition - I could see Redoran and Indoril fighting against abolition for that reason (Indoril especially, yeah). I just have a lot of trouble seeing a civil war where the Houses fighting against abolition only really have tradition as their argument against it and the two Houses fighting for actually have something to lose - especially when Dres is described as also being very anti-Imperial and pro-Temple and so quite probably at least as inclined to campaign against change solely on tradition grounds as Redoran or Indoril!

Again, excellent point. IIRC it's mentioned in MW that slavery is common in Indoril areas as well, so I guess they also have something to lose (though not nearly as much as Dres). There's still no excuse for Redoran, though, especially when they have a bunch of rampaging Nords on their doorstep!

[SubRosa]

This, exactly. Now I'm wondering, where are the reports of a massive spike in the price of saltrice (a staple Dunmer food), and consequent famines and mass starvation? Assuming some people are still continuing to farm saltrice, who is doing it - have some of the ex-slaves agreed to stay on as paid workers? If so, how do the Dres cope with having to treat their former 'posessions' as fellow citizens and employees, and how are the ex-slaves prevented from taking revenge on their former owners? We now have this enormous underclass of suddenly-freed slaves: where do they live, how are they going to be integrated into normal society? Do they have the same social and political rights as free-born citizens? Are they allowed to marry, join Houses, rise to political office?

This would make an outstanding story right there! Would the freedmen be equal? I think there is not a snowball's chance in the Deadlands of that. In fact, I would not be surprised if there was a sudden rise in the lynchings of former slaves, as fearful Dunmer try to keep the uppity lizards and cats in line. I mean, the next thing you know they might actually try dating Dunmer women! I am sure it would be no better than the U.S. after the Civil War.

On the thought of all those Dres plantations, what would happen to all that land? Obviously the House would have a lot of money tied up in owning property, which would all be useless to a mercantile enterprise. They would have to sell it, and probably take a huge loss in the bargain. But who would buy it? The ex slaves would not have any money. Another House might. Or maybe someone outside of Morrowind altogether. Maybe the Argonians? Now talk about sticking into the Dunmer craw! Or perhaps some Cyrodiilic companies, maybe the EEC?

The other option to selling the land is of course renting it to the former slaves who worked upon it. Turning them from slave labor to share-croppers. Of course this would not make Dres a mercantile House as suggested. They would still be the same agricultural House. But this is a form that they could still survive post-abolition. This is also the most likely scenario after abolition. The other being that all the slaves move to the cities and create a massive proletariat, which would create another pile of issues!

One thing that has not been really explored is the topic of slave-trading. There are always huge profits to be made in the buying of selling of slaves. Contrary to how it is often portrayed, it is usually not the slave-holding society going out and kidnapping people of other races/societies to enslave either. Typically it is groups in the same society doing it. The Celts raided one another for not only cattle, but slaves to sell to the Romans in return for wine. Likewise several coastal African kingdoms became very rich by enslaving their weaker neighbors and selling them to Europeans.

So who is selling the slaves to the Dunmer? The lore implies that Dres would be doing it themselves. But as I said, that is not realistic. It would obviously be the Argonians and the Khajiit themselves. How are they getting from Elsewyr and Argonia to Morrowind? A land route might work for the latter, but the former needs a sea route. It could be independent ship owners of unsavory character (i.e. pirates) but given the scope the operations must have had, and the wealth involved, it could not stay small time for long. One of Morrowind's big Houses would be sure to step in. Hlaalu, with its trading empire, would be the most able to capitalize on this. They would have the ships, the caravans, the arrangements at ports, etc... If not, they would have to be grade-a idiots to pass up that kind of money coming right into their front door, and not deserve their reputation as being great businessmen.

So again, abolishing slavery would directly hurt not only Dres, but Hlaalu or another House as well. It would also have serious financial repercussions in Argonia and Elsewyr, and doubtlessly cause disruptions in the internal power structures in each province.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Sep 1 2011, 12:09 AM