Complaining about a piece of Oblivion-given Morrowind lore, abolishing slavery leads to civil war, yeah, but the details... Options

[Kazaera]

(mods, please move this if this is in the wrong place? I couldn't figure out where this topic would go.)

So I was reading up about what happens in Morrowind post-game, according to Oblivion, and ran across this little tidbit.

Apparently Helseth incites a civil war, which he and his allies win, in order to break the power of the Great Houses and consolidate his own. And how he starts this is by banning slavery.

So far, so good. This sort of makes sense, given how fraught slavery is as a topic.

Except. That the civil war apparently happens between Hlaalu and Dres on the anti-slavery side and Redoran and Indoril on the pro-slavery side. Telvanni is Sir Not Appearing In This War.

First, the minor WTFs: Redoran is the in-game house that seems to make least use of slaves, and Indoril seems to be presented as very close to the Temple, also sort of military/religious and not a major slave-owning power either. Since slavery is also a matter of Dunmer tradition and so on, I could buy Redoran and Indoril *supporting* the major slave-owning Houses who protest against this, but have some trouble seeing them being the only ones... considering that of all the houses they would possibly be affected least from everything we've seen. (Hlaalu's got plantations. Worked by slaves.) I also have a lot of trouble seeing Telvanni stand by and do nothing, considering they're very pro-slavery and use slaves a lot.

But all of that pales next to Dres.

I mean, we don't know much about Dres lorewise. But what we do know is that: they are an agricultural House. They have huge, huge plantations that rely solely on slave labour. They are very anti-Imperial, very much Temple-supporters, apparently traditional allies of House Indoril, and very, *very* opposed to abolishing slavery.



I actually considered having slavery outlawed somehow in my Morrowind fic and ending up going "no, that would never happen because Dres would never stand for it." And now apparently, canonically, they not only have but fought a war to abolish slavery???

Especially because... you know, from Dres's description, this would totally ruin their economy.

Of course, apparently (I haven't played Oblivion myself so I'm going off the UESP wiki) you hear rumours that House Dres has "remodelled its economy from an agricultural one to a mercantile one". To which my reaction is twofold:

1. What, overnight?

2. ...if House Dres is the only primarily agricultural Great House, and it magically swaps its economy for one based on trading, then... where is the food coming from?

I have been continually WTFing over this piece of lore since I stumbled across it. Honestly - has anyone been able to make any sense of it? Because I'd love to, really, but I just hit "House Dres" and go "......what."

[Destri Melarg]

Well, the more I think about it the less it makes sense to me, so I guess we're even BTW on re-reading my original post, I realise it sounds really obnoxious - sorry about that. This is a genuinely interesting discussion, I agree.

No worries, Helena. I’ve seen your posts enough to know that you are only trying to engage in discussion. Allow me to tender my own apology in advance if anything I say comes off as obnoxious (which I’m sure it will).

OK, firstly: I'm pretty sure Dres are already trading in saltrice. It's highly unlikely that the massive harvests they produce are purely for domestic consumption (if so, why are they consuming so much while the rest of Morrowind consumes so little?) If they're not already trading, it's going to be vastly more difficult for them to make the changeover - how can you shift your entire economy to a mercantile footing when you have no trading experience whatsoever?

You seem to be slightly missing the point about the transition from agricultural to a mercantile economy. A mercantile society is one in which a significant proportion of the population is involved in buying and selling goods, rather than producing them. If the Dres don't trade at all, there's no logical basis for this to happen. If they do already trade in saltrice, then even if they manage to expand the trade, someone still needs to produce the saltrice - and if slavery is the only economically viable way to do this, they're still going to need slaves.

Thank you for the lesson in socioeconomics, but the point you seem to be missing is that we are not talking about a societal shift here. We are talking about the change in philosophy of a single Great House whose sole income is tied to production of one crop. I think all of you are giving Dres undo credit and making them larger than they really are. Even if we bloat our estimates for the sake of realism, a Great House comprises relatively few (maybe as many as five-ten thousand) individuals. Their decisions have at best a minimal effect on the day to day life of the average ash-born. House Dres deals solely in saltrice. Do you know what saltrice is good for? Well, you can either eat it or you can use it to brew some Mazte . . . that’s it! When was the last time you went into a tavern in Cyrodiil and ordered a bottle of Mazte?

Let's put that aside and assume that the shift is possible, somehow. Why the heck would they make that decision in the first place? Not only is it a huge undertaking for little obvious benefit - apart from a shaky alliance with Hlaalu - but the people in charge, i.e. the landowning aristocracy, would be by far the biggest losers. You're basically going to see a massive transfer of power and wealth from the current rulers to the nascent middle classes. "Shooting themselves in the foot" doesn't begin to describe it . . .

It might be possible to overcome these problems successfully, given a century or two. But if you agree to abolish slavery, you have to actually do it; you can't just say "well, we'll think about doing it sometime within the next hundred years." What's more, the dialogue from Oblivion indicates that the slaves have already been freed: "They say that slavery has been abolished in Morrowind. House Dres and Hlaalu have renounced the slave trade, and freed the beastfolk from servitude."

This economic strangulation that you all see for House Dres’ change to a mercantile concern is a fallacy because, really, how much can the production of saltrice be worth per year? It’s obviously enough to sustain a Great House, but I doubt it’s enough to expand a Great House. Wouldn’t it behoove them to shift toward a mercantile business model if for no other reason than to boost the profits they see from finally being able to export their single useful crop via the EEC? Why wouldn’t they want to ally themselves with a House like Hlaalu with the proven connections to spread sales of Mazte throughout the Empire? It would be far more profitable than the previous model which, as far as I can tell, consisted primarily of production and (one assumes) consumption.

We have been presented with the scenario that Dres has shifted from an agricultural concern to a mercantile concern. Naturally I assume that if they are ‘shifting’ then they didn’t have a mercantile arm to begin with. I also take for granted that they will not completely abandon the machinery already in place to produce the only thing they have worth selling. How asinine would that be?! The two ideologies are not mutually exclusive. We take for granted that Hlaalu owns mines and plantations, but no one sees them as a mining or agricultural House. Shifting House philosophy simply means that they will benefit from the sale of saltrice more than in the past. It also means that, with the abolition of slavery, they will have to now pay their slaves workers a fair wage. How much is that in Tamriel, ten Septims a year? It doesn’t sound like an exorbitant price to pay for finally being able to reap the rewards of trading throughout the Empire.

Morrowind already exists under Imperial Law, so I'm not quite sure what you mean there.

If that were the case then the Morag Tong would be illegal, and the Ministry of Truth would probably be closed.

Ultimately all of this is just us spinning our wheels. The lore presented to us states that House Hlaalu and House Dres joined in the abolition of slavery against House Indoril and House Redoran allied in opposition. No matter what protestations we may have (and we certainly have them), it’s Bethesda’s lore and that is how they want it. I don't think that you are wrong, Helena. In a real world situation the alliances and economic conditions given wouldn't happen. But I was under the impression that the purpose of this thread was to discuss how the current situation could have come about, not poke holes in the sole theory put forth to explain it. I said in my first post that my theory isn’t perfect. Please, if someone has a better one I’m all ears. Otherwise I really have no desire to engage in yet another 'Bash Bethesda' thread. Those have been done ad nauseum already.

I concede the floor to someone else.

This post has been edited by Destri Melarg: Sep 2 2011, 09:00 AM

[Helena]

Thank you for the lesson in socioeconomics, but the point you seem to be missing is that we are not talking about a societal shift here. We are talking about the change in philosophy of a single Great House whose sole income is tied to production of one crop. I think all of you are giving Dres undo credit and making them larger than they really are. Even if we bloat our estimates for the sake of realism, a Great House comprises relatively few (maybe as many as five-ten thousand) individuals. Their decisions have at best a minimal effect on the day to day life of the average ash-born. House Dres deals solely in saltrice. Do you know what saltrice is good for? Well, you can either eat it or you can use it to brew some Mazte . . . that’s it! When was the last time you went into a tavern in Cyrodiil and ordered a bottle of Mazte?

But my point is that you can't have any significant economic shift without a societal shift as well. Even relatively small changes can have far-reaching consequences. Even if the changes to Dres' economy didn't affect the rest of Morrowind (which would basically only be possible if they're not trading at all with the other Houses), they're still going to have a massive effect within House Dres itself. The fact that they deal solely in saltrice will make the effects even more dramatic, because pretty much everyone in the House will be affected.

You really think that the availablility of food and alcohol doesn't have social effects? I'll get to food later, but if you think that alcohol prices don't matter, try reading up on the UK's binge-drinking culture (a big 'headline issue' right now). To summarise very briefly and over-simplistically: A fall in real alcohol prices over the last few decades lead to a big increase in alcohol consumption, resulting in large amounts of alcohol-related crime, closure of pubs (who are undercut by supermarkets selling cheap alcohol) and consequent job losses, and a massive cost to the NHS (our state-funded health service) of treating alcohol-related injuries and illness. That's without even counting all the indirect costs, like the effect on workplace productivity. You can't just deal with these things in isolation; they're all interconnected.

Sorry to turn this into an Economics 101 class, but if we're going to debate the possiblity of economic change in House Dres, we have to discuss how and why this might happen and what the results would be. It's nowhere near as simple as people saying "OK, let's stop farming and start selling stuff" or even "OK, let's sell more of the stuff we already sell". Let me try to explain:

If you're selling a product and want to increase your sales, the first thing you need to do is find someone to buy it. As I said before, saltrice is a staple food, so you're not likely to see large changes in demand (barring a population boom, which is rare in Elven societies). If you flood the market with saltrice in the absence of any new buyers, all you'll do is lower the price - which might be good for society as a whole, but definitely not for producers like Dres and Hlaalu.

But let's assume the Dres find a new buyer, perhaps in a foreign market. Maybe the wheat harvests fail in Cyrodiil, so the Imperials decide to import saltrice from Morrowind as a substitute. Now the question becomes "how the heck do we increase production while destroying our only viable source of labour?" If the Dres want to sell more saltrice, they'll have to farm more of it, and if their plantations are already dependent on slave labour... To put it bluntly, selling more saltrice is likely to lead to more slavery, not less.

This economic strangulation that you all see for House Dres’ change to a mercantile concern is a fallacy because, really, how much can the production of saltrice be worth per year? It’s obviously enough to sustain a Great House, but I doubt it’s enough to expand a Great House. Wouldn’t it behoove them to shift toward a mercantile business model if for no other reason than to boost the profits they see from finally being able to export their single useful crop via the EEC? Why wouldn’t they want to ally themselves with a House like Hlaalu with the proven connections to spread sales of Mazte throughout the Empire? It would be far more profitable than the previous model which, as far as I can tell, consisted primarily of production and (one assumes) consumption.

To answer this you have to tackle the questions I've posed above and in my previous post. What exactly will they sell? Who to? How would they expand production of their current exports (raw saltrice and mazte) without making even greater use of slavery? Certainly there are potential advantages to diversifying their economy, but it may not even be possible, let alone desirable for those at the top (who are presumably doing pretty well out of the current situation).

We have been presented with the scenario that Dres has shifted from an agricultural concern to a mercantile concern. Naturally I assume that if they are ‘shifting’ then they didn’t have a mercantile arm to begin with. I also take for granted that they will not completely abandon the machinery already in place to produce the only thing they have worth selling. How asinine would that be?! The two ideologies are not mutually exclusive. We take for granted that Hlaalu owns mines and plantations, but no one sees them as a mining or agricultural House. Shifting House philosophy simply means that they will benefit from the sale of saltrice more than in the past. It also means that, with the abolition of slavery, they will have to now pay their slaves workers a fair wage. How much is that in Tamriel, ten Septims a year? It doesn’t sound like an exorbitant price to pay for finally being able to reap the rewards of trading throughout the Empire.

Hlaalu are seen as a mercantile House because they actually are more heavily involved in trading goods, as opposed to producing goods, than any of the other Houses. They are several factors behind this: their geographical position, their entrepreneurial culture, their (relatively) tolerant attitude towards foreigners, and their historically close ties to the Empire. If Dres trades with the Empire through Hlaalu, it's Hlaalu's merchants who'll do the actual trading. It won't turn Dres into a mercantile House, just an agricultural House who sell slightly more of their produce to outlanders.

As for the price of hired workers vs. slaves, it depends entirely on the availability of labour. If it's plentiful, then yes, hiring paid workers will generally be cheaper. If not, then it may well be more economical to use slave labour (disregarding any moral arguments, of course). I'm assuming is the case in Dres territory, because it's pretty much stated outright in MW: "House Dres is an agrarian agricultural society, and its large saltrice plantations rely completely on slave labor for their economic viability."

There are alternatives to slave labour which might allow Dres' plantations to survive, if not prosper. SubRosa mentioned share-cropping, which I agree is the most likely option if abolition were forced on the Dres. But it would still involve huge losses for the plantation owners, so they're very unlikely to make that sort of change willingly. Where the people in charge are the ones who benefit most from slavery, you're not likely to see it abolished without a fight.

Another way to reduce labour costs is to hire cheap immigrant workers from abroad. But you'd have to persuade them to come in the first place, and the Dres don't exactly have much to offer immigrants: a harsh climate, poor wages and working conditions, and a native population who view and treat outlanders with utter contempt. Again, if the Dres could persuade Khajiit and Argonians to come willingly to work on their plantations, they'd probably be doing it already.

If that were the case then the Morag Tong would be illegal, and the Ministry of Truth would probably be closed.

The Armistice - the treaty which incorporated Morrowind into the Empire - specifically allowed them to keep some of their ancient customs (e.g. slavery and the Morag Tong) and a degree of self-government. It's explained in some of the in-game books like this one. Otherwise, though, they're definitely under Imperial occupation - it's a fairly major plot point in MW's main quest, and those Imperial forts dotted around the gameworld aren't just for decoration. Even the House guards explicitly state that they enforce Imperial law as well as Great House law.

Ultimately all of this is just us spinning our wheels. The lore presented to us states that House Hlaalu and House Dres joined in the abolition of slavery against House Indoril and House Redoran allied in opposition. No matter what protestations we may have (and we certainly have them), it’s Bethesda’s lore and that is how they want it. I don't think that you are wrong, Helena. In a real world situation the alliances and economic conditions given wouldn't happen. But I was under the impression that the purpose of this thread was to discuss how the current situation could have come about, not poke holes in the sole theory put forth to explain it. I said in my first post that my theory isn’t perfect. Please, if someone has a better one I’m all ears. Otherwise I really have no desire to engage in yet another 'Bash Bethesda' thread. Those have been done ad nauseum already.

I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong on this, Kazaera), that Kazaera was necessarily asking for a solution. It sounded to me like she was saying "does this make sense to anyone here, or do people agree with me that it doesn't make sense?" Just because we'd like to see a theory that would plausibly explain away all these contradictions, doesn't mean that such a theory actually exists.

Without necessarily wanting to bash Bethesda, I don't see that it's our job to patch up their plot-holes. Yeah, of course it's their world and they can do what they like with it, but they can't force us - the fans - to accept two blatantly contradictory pieces of 'lore' as being equally valid. Of course it's partly a question of personal 'hot-buttons'; my degree is in economics and politics, so I don't feel able to rationalise something that makes no economic or political sense. If we were discussing, say, the magic system - an area where I have little interest or knowledge - I'd be (slightly) more willing to overlook these kinds of contradictions.

What I and some of the others have tried to do is propose an alternative scenario for abolition, which could make sense given what we know from Morrowind. It means disregarding some of Bethesda's lore, but as SubRosa says, it doesn't really seem like they've thought about it all that hard anyway. Even if the writers happened to stumble on a discussion like this one, I doubt they would care that much (heck, they might even agree).