Skyrim Improvements, we all know the bad stuff so.... Options

[Lady Saga]

Good day to all. I am Lady Saga, and today I'd like to talk about Skyrim's improvements.

I did a bit of lurking thru the Skyrim forums at Bethsoft this morning. It's slow at my job today, and I am fortunate to get time to just surf the 'net instead of finding "busy work" to do. It's been 4 months, and still there are folks out there making a fuss about the stuff that's missing in Skyrim. It gets old...it's been old reading about this stuff. Personally, I'd much rather focus on the things which make me pleased.

So here. Let us start an actual list on the stuff that we feel are Skyrim Improvements. and feel free to agree and/or disagree as you see fit. We're all friends here. The reason I'm starting this thread, folks, is because it's rare Bethesda actually has been congratulated on the things they've done right.

1). Lack of hand-holding. I would guesstimate that just under 50% of gamers on the forums wanted Skyrim to be more like Morrowind, so far as hand-holding goes. Although I've never played Morrowind, I know a few things about how this game starts, more or less. You start off on a boat, you are a freed prisoner (correct me if I'm wrong), other than this, the game provides few details about who you are, and what you are supposed to do.

I like this. I like starting with a clean slate like this, free of pop-ups being thrown in my face every 30 seconds. I like the need to figure out what comes next on my own. Although I'm not gonna compare Skyrim with what I know about how Morrowind does it, the fact that the game doesn't just hand-hold during the beginning, even as we're being attacked by a fearsome dragon!, is an improvement. I liked the fact that it was up to me to figure out what was going on throughout the rest of the Tutorial, and an NPC was there to teach me what to do (rather than a set of pop-up messages).

I'm not saying pop-up messages and hand-holding never occurs in Skyrim, what I'm saying is it's easier to avoid, easier to ignore, if the player wants to do so.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2). The Clairvoyance Spell. My magic-based characters use this spell occasionally. It's a creative way to avoid the need to look at the 3D world map and quest markers, if one is trying to avoid doing so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3). With my non-magic characters, I have the option of using that brown paper map if we want to avoid the in-game 3D map.

Although Bethesda has never given an explanation on what that paper map is for, I'm convinced it's a clever way for us roleplayers to further immerse ourselves in the game. It's not just a nerdy thing to hang on our walls.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4). Gathered ingredients actually disappear for awhile. This is kinda like the way it was in Sims2: Castaway, although I don't know if Beth stole this idea from Castaway or some other game. It's pretty cool imo that if we pick an ingredient, a mushroom, a flower, etc. it actually shows it being picked. My only criticism here is it shows an entire group of items being picked at once, yet only one flower or mushroom (whatever) appears in our inventory? Huh.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5). Better magical animations, especially in the Destruction school. I've always thought Oblivion's fireballs, lightning, and other thrown spells seemed to move too slowly, and are way too easy to dodge. The first time a Fireball moved towards my character in Skyrim I was REALLY FRICKING SCARED of it. That particular character (Thor a'Zaene) vowed a fear of magic, and tended to run whenever he encountered stuff he didn't understand.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6). The HUD. I realize that Bethesda probably never comes here to Chorrol.com but THANK YOU for allowing us to vary the opacity of the HUD. I used to put several pieces of electrical tape over the compass in Oblivion. Not only does it hand-hold for us, telling us what's coming up and what's going down, but I just found it annoying to have a "compass" that is always working for us. It defeats the purpose of playing a game in which I find myself wanting to get lost on occasion.

It's so awesome those of us who want to use this device can still do so, but those of us who don't want to can just turn it off. Or turn it down.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7). Dragons. Although I have yet to have a dragon-filled game, I think these beasts are pretty cool. Some say they're "too generic" in this medieval setting, but whatever. I think they totally fit AND I like the fact that if we don't want them in our game, we can do something about this.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8). Variably leveled encounters. Another thing Beth did right imo is to include areas of the game that are much tougher than anything we'll typically encounter in the Whiterun area, even if we're still at Level 1. The game isn't just filled with rats, wolves, and simple NPC's (as in Oblivion), it's possible to run into something much meaner.

Some say this is not a good thing, since we can't just go anywhere at lower levels. I think it's an improvement though...a challenge...if you will.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
9). Snow effects. They're not as good as I thought they would be (I was picturing snow would accumulate and stuff) but the way snow swirls and tends to move about in Skyrim, to the point that there are times we can barely see where we're going, is an improvement to the simple flurries of OBlivion. Real snow can be light or heavy, after all.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10). Crafting, enchanting, Alchemy, etc. It's not just the fact that we get more activities in this game, Pseron Wyrd (over at Bethsoft) pointed out that the way Skyrim does it eliminates need to exit the game entirely into different menus. We get to watch our character make potions, make weapons, etc., instead of just having to imagine this stuff.


Phew. that's enough for now. I'm sure I'll think of dozens of other things as time goes on.

.

This post has been edited by Lady Saga: Mar 23 2012, 03:28 PM

[Thomas Kaira]

1). Lack of hand-holding. I would guesstimate that just under 50% of gamers on the forums wanted Skyrim to be more like Morrowind, so far as hand-holding goes. Although I've never played Morrowind, I know a few things about how this game starts, more or less. You start off on a boat, you are a freed prisoner (correct me if I'm wrong), other than this, the game provides few details about who you are, and what you are supposed to do.

I like this. I like starting with a clean slate like this, free of pop-ups being thrown in my face every 30 seconds. I like the need to figure out what comes next on my own. Although I'm not gonna compare Skyrim with what I know about how Morrowind does it, the fact that the game doesn't just hand-hold during the beginning, even as we're being attacked by a fearsome dragon!, is an improvement. I liked the fact that it was up to me to figure out what was going on throughout the rest of the Tutorial, and an NPC was there to teach me what to do (rather than a set of pop-up messages).

I'm not saying pop-up messages and hand-holding never occurs in Skyrim, what I'm saying is it's easier to avoid, easier to ignore, if the player wants to do so.

Agreed on the handholding being easier to ignore, but there is a related issue I'd like to talk about here: Skyrim is incredibly condescending and patronizing. The game tries pretty hard, for instance, to shove quests into your face just so there is absolutely no chance in Oblivion for the player to miss them. What was so wrong with a random lone passerby on the road somewhere? That served as enough of a marker that he might have a small quest for me in Morrowind. Now, not only do we get the random passersby, they practically scream at you (literally) "I have a quest for you, talk to me!!!" And sometimes, they even force you into the conversation to start the quest.

Then there are the quest markers, which are a fairly obvious crutch for Bethesda now. For almost 90% of the quests, your ONLY directions are the quest marker. And they don't point you simply to the general location you need to be, but to the exact thing you need to interact with. And those things are already pretty obvious to begin with, so these quest markers are pretty condescending at the same time. Yes, I KNOW that Draugr is the boss I need to kill, or that giant lever in the middle of the room is the one I need to pull, get rid of that friggin arrow already!!

Tutorial? Well I personally love the message that pops up telling you "your Health is low" right in the middle of combat, like I'm too stupid to figure out what an almost empty giant red bar that depletes when I get hit means, interrupting me in the heat of the moment and completely breaking flow. Really? There's a fine line between tutoring and patronizing, and the game leaps a mile over it right here.

So while it is easier to avoid some of these things (quest markers can be turned off, for example) it doesn't change that it feels like the devs are treating the players like they are five years old.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2). The Clairvoyance Spell. My magic-based characters use this spell occasionally. It's a creative way to avoid the need to look at the 3D world map and quest markers, if one is trying to avoid doing so.

Still would prefer a proper means of directions, but Clairvoyance is a step in the right direction.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3). With my non-magic characters, I have the option of using that brown paper map if we want to avoid the in-game 3D map.

Although Bethesda has never given an explanation on what that paper map is for, I'm convinced it's a clever way for us roleplayers to further immerse ourselves in the game. It's not just a nerdy thing to hang on our walls.

Agreed. There's no rule against thinking outside the box in an RPG.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4). Gathered ingredients actually disappear for awhile. This is kinda like the way it was in Sims2: Castaway, although I don't know if Beth stole this idea from Castaway or some other game. It's pretty cool imo that if we pick an ingredient, a mushroom, a flower, etc. it actually shows it being picked. My only criticism here is it shows an entire group of items being picked at once, yet only one flower or mushroom (whatever) appears in our inventory? Huh.

I think Beth got the idea from modders. One of the most popular mods for Oblivion was Harvest Flora, which did exactly this.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

5). Better magical animations, especially in the Destruction school. I've always thought Oblivion's fireballs, lightning, and other thrown spells seemed to move too slowly, and are way too easy to dodge. The first time a Fireball moved towards my character in Skyrim I was REALLY FRICKING SCARED of it. That particular character (Thor a'Zaene) vowed a fear of magic, and tended to run whenever he encountered stuff he didn't understand.

Magic looks great, no doubt about that. I just wish that it hadn't been utterly gutted at the same time.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6). The HUD. I realize that Bethesda probably never comes here to Chorrol.com but THANK YOU for allowing us to vary the opacity of the HUD. I used to put several pieces of electrical tape over the compass in Oblivion. Not only does it hand-hold for us, telling us what's coming up and what's going down, but I just found it annoying to have a "compass" that is always working for us. It defeats the purpose of playing a game in which I find myself wanting to get lost on occasion.

It's so awesome those of us who want to use this device can still do so, but those of us who don't want to can just turn it off. Or turn it down.

I understand you play on console and that the UI experience is a different story there, but coming from a PC user, that UI is the most unintuitive, clunky piece of junk I've ever seen.

This post contains most of my views on why.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7). Dragons. Although I have yet to have a dragon-filled game, I think these beasts are pretty cool. Some say they're "too generic" in this medieval setting, but whatever. I think they totally fit AND I like the fact that if we don't want them in our game, we can do something about this.

Anyone here read Beowulf? If you did, then you know why Dragons fit Skyrim like a glove.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

8). Variably leveled encounters. Another thing Beth did right imo is to include areas of the game that are much tougher than anything we'll typically encounter in the Whiterun area, even if we're still at Level 1. The game isn't just filled with rats, wolves, and simple NPC's (as in Oblivion), it's possible to run into something much meaner.

Some say this is not a good thing, since we can't just go anywhere at lower levels. I think it's an improvement though...a challenge...if you will.

The leveling is still a little overzealous in areas (Draugr Deathlords), but it has definitely been improved.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

9). Snow effects. They're not as good as I thought they would be (I was picturing snow would accumulate and stuff) but the way snow swirls and tends to move about in Skyrim, to the point that there are times we can barely see where we're going, is an improvement to the simple flurries of OBlivion. Real snow can be light or heavy, after all.

Now, if only Bethesda could actually fix the snowflakes going through the ceiling...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

10). Crafting, enchanting, Alchemy, etc. It's not just the fact that we get more activities in this game, Pseron Wyrd (over at Bethsoft) pointed out that the way Skyrim does it eliminates need to exit the game entirely into different menus. We get to watch our character make potions, make weapons, etc., instead of just having to imagine this stuff.

It is nice to watch, indeed. The crafting features are quite badly balanced, unfortunately, but it doesn't change that they are nice to have. One thing I think is missing, though: upgradable personal crafting stations, like buying a new Alembic for my alchemy table or improving the Magetallows on my enchanter. Oh well, maybe next time.

[Lady Saga]

Uh oh...as soon as I saw you posted here, I knew there'd be some strong opinions! But I know you well enough now that I also know you'll only post fair opinions, Thomas.


Agreed on the handholding being easier to ignore, but there is a related issue I'd like to talk about here: Skyrim is incredibly condescending and patronizing. The game tries pretty hard, for instance, to shove quests into your face just so there is absolutely no chance in Oblivion for the player to miss them. What was so wrong with a random lone passerby on the road somewhere? That served as enough of a marker that he might have a small quest for me in Morrowind. Now, not only do we get the random passersby, they practically scream at you (literally) "I have a quest for you, talk to me!!!" And sometimes, they even force you into the conversation to start the quest.

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here, but then I have not played Morrowind, yet. But I will someday.

I don't mind thay they want us to pay attention to their concerns, and these concerns turn into quests. This is realistic. All my characters so far in Skyrim have been adventuring sorts (with one cleric). It makes sense that some needy NPC's want us to help them. A lot of them perhaps don't have the means, the bravery, or the will to do it themselves. I get this.



Then there are the quest markers, which are a fairly obvious crutch for Bethesda now. For almost 90% of the quests, your ONLY directions are the quest marker. And they don't point you simply to the general location you need to be, but to the exact thing you need to interact with. And those things are already pretty obvious to begin with, so these quest markers are pretty condescending at the same time. Yes, I KNOW that Draugr is the boss I need to kill, or that giant lever in the middle of the room is the one I need to pull, get rid of that friggin arrow already!!

Huh. I dunno...this one doesn't bother me. It would be nice if NPC's gave more descriptive instructions, I agree there. But the quest markers themselves can be toggled on or off, at least we have more choices here. That's all I wanted before 11/11/11 on this issue: more choices.


Tutorial? Well I personally love the message that pops up telling you "your Health is low" right in the middle of combat, like I'm too stupid to figure out what an almost empty giant red bar that depletes when I get hit means, interrupting me in the heat of the moment and completely breaking flow. Really? There's a fine line between tutoring and patronizing, and the game leaps a mile over it right here.

alll right...all right.... Yea, if you go thru the Tutorial step by step, sure there are some handholding and whatnot. My point there was overall, this Tutorial seemed to flow more, with less messages being thrown into my face, than Oblivion's.


So while it is easier to avoid some of these things (quest markers can be turned off, for example) it doesn't change that it feels like the devs are treating the players like they are five years old.

Sorry man. I get what you're saying, but I don't fully agree. I don't get that "5 year old" feeling in Skyrim like I did in Oblivion. Sure, things could have been done differently, and it would be nice to have more options here, but what handholding there is in Skyrim doesn't bother me personally.

Handholding as a whole is dumbed-down, and that's an improvement to me. I've seen folks over at Bethsoft complaining that they want it more like Oblivion, which makes me What if it were more hand-holdy? I'm glad they didn't add more.

Personally, I really really was wanting some sort of a hardcore mode in Skyrim. If there's an area I feel "patronized", it's the fact that there's all this food and drink lying around, plenty of beds, but there's no need to participate if we don't want to. We never actually have to eat or sleep if we dont' want to. That just doesn't seem right.


Still would prefer a proper means of directions, but Clairvoyance is a step in the right direction.

Yea, I know...would be nice if more NPC's gave us more specific directions. In one of my very first quests, the claw one, the lady at Riverwood's general store actually walked outside with my character at the time and pointed the way for him. i thought this was really clever and thought all the quest directions would be like this. Not so......




Agreed. There's no rule against thinking outside the box in an RPG.

I just made a dual color copy of my map this past weekend, and taped it together, so that when I start using it, I won't be marking up the original map that came with the game.


I think Beth got the idea from modders. One of the most popular mods for Oblivion was Harvest Flora, which did exactly this.

Cool!



I understand you play on console and that the UI experience is a different story there, but coming from a PC user, that UI is the most unintuitive, clunky piece of junk I've ever seen.

Well I wasn't talking about the User Interface on that one, I was talking of the HUD only, the ability to turn off the compass more specifically. I don't mind the UI, personally but I wouldn't consider it an improvement in and of itself. I've heard it sucks on PC. You can just mod taht out, though, right?

what I DO mind the hotkey system though. Do you know we only get 2 hotkey choices on console? It's ludicrous I tell ya!

Anyone here read Beowulf? If you did, then you know why Dragons fit Skyrim like a glove.

Never have, but the dragons can possibly appear in every tabletop RPG I'd ever played in the past. Taht being said, I'm still afraid of them, and I still have no desire to introduce them into my games.


The leveling is still a little overzealous in areas (Draugr Deathlords), but it has definitely been improved.

Yup. I woulda done a couple things different, but then, so would all of us. It's miles better than Oblivion in certain ways, though, leveling up is.


Now, if only Bethesda could actually fix the snowflakes going through the ceiling...

Yea, everyone was hoping this would finally get addressed. Oh well.


It is nice to watch, indeed. The crafting features are quite badly balanced, unfortunately, but it doesn't change that they are nice to have. One thing I think is missing, though: upgradable personal crafting stations, like buying a new Alembic for my alchemy table or improving the Magetallows on my enchanter. Oh well, maybe next time.


Maybe with DLC, too.

This post has been edited by Lady Saga: Apr 13 2012, 01:19 AM

[Thomas Kaira]

What can I say? I'm a passionate guy.

Well I wasn't talking about the User Interface on that one, I was talking of the HUD only, the ability to turn off the compass more specifically. I don't mind the UI, personally but I wouldn't consider it an improvement in and of itself. I've heard it sucks on PC. You can just mod taht out, though, right?

what I DO mind the hotkey system though. Do you know we only get 2 hotkey choices on console? It's ludicrous I tell ya!

And I thought only eight was bad...

I mean, really, I have over a hundred buttons on my controller, why shouldn't I be allowed to use them all?

Anyways, a good portion of the horridness of the UI can be modded away, but there are a few things that can't, like broken key rebindings (re-mapping the movement controls causes mayhem) or flat-out wrong tool-tips (says to press Enter to confirm a Wait, for instance, when E does exactly the same thing and doesn't require me to move my hands around) which are affected by and don't update to reflect our key rebindings. Also, key commands change for no reason between menus, like the Container menu where E in the player inventory is Use while E in the container inventory is Take. Which means E in the player inventory should be Put Away so to keep similar controls on the same key, but they aren't. Wondering why those Daedra Hearts you supposedly put away weren't there? You probably ate them.

It's a catastrophe, I am dead serious. THE worst UI Bethesda has ever made.

The HUD is fine, I will say that. But the rest of the UI... it must burn.

Oh, and on the topic of quest givers, what Morrowind did was place certain quest-giving NPCs out in the middle of nowhere someplace where they would stick out. Misc quest givers in cities often needed to be hunted down, and that I'm not really a fan of (why would I bother hunting people down because they want me to clean their toilets). About the same as someone having a conversation on the street about some interesting topic you then choose to ask about, actually, so I'm not criticizing Skyrim in any way there (all things considered, that's better than what Morrowind did, how exactly did that guy end up 50 miles away from the rest of the world, anyway?). The only thing I don't like is when after the conversation takes place (or doesn't) you get force-greeted by one of the NPCs who then attempts to sucker you into the quest (Brynjolf, I'm looking at you).

This post has been edited by Thomas Kaira: Apr 13 2012, 03:49 AM

[Lady Saga]

And I thought only eight was bad...

I think what happened is there are thousands upon thousands of gamers out there complained about "only" having 8 choices. So with the new Favorites system we can have as many choices as we want. The problem is on consoles, for some reason, Beth could only get 2 of these to work during real-time gameplay. That's my theory. But it sucks for us Xbox and PS3 users. I don't know how it works on Xbox, but there are 4 extra hotkeys that go unused on PS3.

If you ask me, Oblivion's hotkey system was fine. 8 choices are plenty. 2 are not.

Anyways, a good portion of the horridness of the UI can be modded away, but there are a few things that can't, like broken key rebindings (re-mapping the movement controls causes mayhem) or flat-out wrong tool-tips (says to press Enter to confirm a Wait, for instance, when E does exactly the same thing and doesn't require me to move my hands around) which are affected by and don't update to reflect our key rebindings. Also, key commands change for no reason between menus, like the Container menu where E in the player inventory is Use while E in the container inventory is Take. Which means E in the player inventory should be Put Away so to keep similar controls on the same key, but they aren't. Wondering why those Daedra Hearts you supposedly put away weren't there? You probably ate them.

Ahhh that sucks, man.

... so I'm not criticizing Skyrim in any way there (all things considered, that's better than what Morrowind did, how exactly did that guy end up 50 miles away from the rest of the world, anyway?). The only thing I don't like is when after the conversation takes place (or doesn't) you get force-greeted by one of the NPCs who then attempts to sucker you into the quest (Brynjolf, I'm looking at you).

Huh. I dunno, this don't bother me. Overall I like the way quests manifest in Skyrim better than Oblivion. There could be improvements, there always could be improvements, but I don't have any major probs here. Sure, there are little inconsistencies here and there....


...just give me the old hotkey system, hopefully include a hardcore mode in future DLC, and I'll be a near 100% happy gamer.

This post has been edited by Lady Saga: Apr 13 2012, 03:16 PM