Dragon Age: Origins, Archery, Multi-Classing, etc... Options

[SubRosa]

Because I only see a topic for DA2, but not the first game. I have made some discoveries while playing, and thought I would share for the benefit of others who might try playing the game, especially as an archer.

I bought DA:O over a year ago, tried it with a Dalish Rogue/Archer, and didn't like it because my character felt useless. I tried the game again a few weeks ago as a Mage, and have been enjoying it. I have tried out a sword and board warrior, and a dual-wielding rogue long enough to play their Origins as well. Then I tried a Dalish archer again, and the blah came right back.

I have done some digging, and found that archery is really nerfed in this game, at least at the low levels.

If you are going with a Rogue archer you are going to want a high Cunning, since your talents depend on it. But that means you have to spread your points between Strength and Dexterity if you want to hit, and Cunning as well for your talents. I believe that ranged attacks are supposed to be dependent upon Dex only, but that is now how it actually works. It is the same as melee attacks, you get a bonus of 0.5 for every point of Strength and Dexterity over 10. I tried experimenting on leveling up, and saw how adding strength raised my ranged attack stat.

The Lethality talent is supposed to fix that, by making Cunning replace Strength. So I experimented by adding it through the console. It did nothing to my attack value. So either it is broken, or it modifies only bow damage, not attacks. I spent a lot of time looking at the attack value because my starting archer was missing more than she was hitting. A typical battle might have her fire 8 shots, and 5 would miss. And that was with an Attack of 60. Pretty abysmal, and the reason why I got so disappointed with the game my first time out.

Backstabs do not work with a bow either, which makes the Rogue archer even less viable.

Then I found This page on Efficient Archery. It all boils down to not using your archer talents because they slow down your attack speed considerably. Instead you need to concentrate upon high attack speed, and critical hits. Of course the one talent that improves your attack speed - Rapid Shot - also makes it impossible to critically hit. So it is useless. (however, there is a bug with the Pinpoint Strike, Stealth, and Death Hex talents that allow critical hits with Rapid Shot. Apparently every normal hit becomes a critical, and every critical becomes a normal hit). Just to make things even more interesting, every character in the game has a 3% base chance for a critical hit. Except the player character, who has none. So unless the PC is using a weapon or talent that adds a critical hit bonus, you cannot get any criticals at all. Thankfully I found this mod to fix that bug.


To enable the command console, do the following:

First go to your Dragon Age Origins\Data folder and find the DAOriginsLauncher.xml file.

Search it for the following line:
<true action="execute" file="${BINARIES_DIR}\DAOrigins.exe" path="${BINARIES_DIR}" autoquit="true" />

replace the entire line with this:
<true action="execute" file="${BINARIES_DIR}\DAOrigins.exe" path="${BINARIES_DIR}" arguments="-enabledeveloperconsole;" autoquit="true" />


Next go to your {User Name}\My Documents\BioWare\Dragon Age\Settings folder and find the KeyBindings.ini file

Find the lines (probably at the botton) that say

OpenConsole_0=(UNASSIGNED)
OpenConsole_1=(UNASSIGNED)

and change them to this:

OpenConsole_0=Keyboard::Button_Tilde
OpenConsole_1=Keyboard::Button_Tilde


I did some experimenting, and used the Console to change her from a Rogue to a Warrior. Her Attack instantly went from 60 to over 70, and the missed shots went down considerably. But I was hoping for your basic stealthy, bow using, lockpicking kind of character. Then I found out how to create a multi-classed character with the console (toward the bottom of that same page above). You can use the console to add all the talent trees from Rogue to the Warrior, and vice-versa, including the specializations like Bard or Assassin. It only matters what class you "officially" are because that is what determines your starting stats, base attack (Warrior is 60, Rogue 55) and how much health, stamina, etc... you get per level.

Multi-classing a mage is a bit tricker. The way the game is made Mages cannot use talents, and Warriors/Rogues cannot use spells. So you can use the console to add the Core Mage class, but it has no effect. However, you can still start with a Warrior or Rogue and use the console to add individual spells. They do not show up in your character sheet. But they do show up in the quick button bar at the bottom of the screen. You can move them around to different slots there as normal. They work just fine too, and use your stamina instead of magicka. I have not tried it, but you are supposed to be able to start with a Mage and do the same with Warrior and Rogue talents as well.

So you can create a mage who can pick locks and disarm traps, or a rogue who can cast spells, etc... I am going to play my newest character Banba as a hybrid of all three this way, using the Warrior as a base for the better health and to hit scores. I have already added the stealth, lockpicking, and dirty fighting talent trees. I found the first Dirty Fighting talent is handy for enemies that close to melee. A swift kick in the nards stuns them, without having to equip a shield or melee weapon. I doubt I will use any of the other talents in that tree though. I might specialize her as a ranger or a bard. I don't see her needing a lot of magic, but I expect to use some glyph spells, and maybe healing ones as well.

Finally, I just did some modding, and changed the Aim and Defensive Fire talents to remove their attack speed penalties. That should help make an archer more viable, hopefully without having to go through all of the acrobatic exploits listed on the Efficient Archery page. When I was going through the script file (talent_modal.ncs), I did not see any other archer talents that added a speed penalty. So either those two are it, or they are in a different file. Edit: Pinning Shot, Critical Shot, and Crippling Shot are in a different file - talent_singletarget.ncs - and they do slow down the attack speed as well. But when I looked in the script file, I did not see anything adding the slowdown. So back to the drawing board. Also, I see Arrow of Slaying is in talent_arrow_slaying.ncs, and Scattershot is in talent_scattershot.ncs. But I have not had time to look at those.

I am also using this mod that improves the stats of bows a little bit, but not overpoweringly so.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Aug 27 2020, 10:37 AM

[SubRosa]

Here is a question for the DA:O crowd. How many people actually like Morrigan, and keep her in their party? As much as I love Claudia Black (who does her voice), I just cannot stand the character. The idiotic top she wears makes me want to laugh every time I look at her. Thankfully the Chasind Cache in the Kocari Wilds has a Chasind Robe you can get and save for her.

But even beyond that, she is not only a pain in the rear, but a moron. For example, she thinks it is a great idea to go right after Teryn Logain, without making any effort to gather help from nobles like Arl Eamon, or other factions. Yeah, let's the three of us (plus one dog) attack the new king and his entire army in his home base. Really smart. Her comments at the Circle Tower are just as moronic. She would rather let all the mages be killed than help them. Well idiot, that means not having any mages in the army later against the Darkspawn. Really bright. Let's just cut off our nose to spite our faces while we are at it.

After my first character found Flemeth's Grimoire in the Circle Tower, and Morrigan came to her later and said that Flemeth planned on killing/possessing her to extend her own life, I could not see any problem with that. After all, Flemeth did do my character and Alistar a solid by saving out lives at the end of the battle of Ostagar. The way I see it, I owe her. Morrigan OTOH, has done nothing but bitch and complain and be an idiot. If the game gave me a choice, I'd help Flemeth do the deed.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Jan 6 2014, 09:57 PM

[Callidus Thorn]

Here is a question for the DA:O crowd. How many people actually like Morrigan, and keep her in their party? As much as I love Claudia Black (who does her voice), I just cannot stand the character. The idiotic top she wears makes me want to laugh every time I look at her. Thankfully the Chasind Cache in the Kocari Wilds has a Chasind Robe you can get and save for her.

I've yet to actually use her in my party throughout the game, though with my current run I'm going to. My characters going to go through the Witch Hunt DLC, so I want a character who romances Morrigan. Though your talking about her top reminds me of one of the conversations that takes place between Morrigan and Leliana:

Leliana: You are very beautiful Morrigan.
Morrigan: Tell me something I do not know.
Leliana: But you always dress in such rags. It suits you I suppose. A little tear here, a little rip there to show some skin. I understand.
Morrigan: You understand I lived in a forest, I hope?

But even beyond that, she is not only a pain in the rear, but a moron. For example, she thinks it is a great idea to go right after Teryn Logain, without making any effort to gather help from nobles like Arl Eamon, or other factions. Yeah, let's the three of us (plus one dog) attack the new king and his entire army in his home base. Really smart. Her comments at the Circle Tower are just as moronic. She would rather let all the mages be killed than help them. Well idiot, that means not having any mages in the army later against the Darkspawn. Really bright. Let's just cut off our nose to spite our faces while we are at it.

Actually I've always thought she had a point when it comes to going after Loghain. His powerbase is practically non-existent, and few nobles would be inclined to trust him after the debacle at Ostagar, regardless of him trying to pin it all on the Grey Wardens. He might be the second most powerful man in Ferelden, once Highcastle gets trashed, but he's also the least popular among the nobles. And after getting attacked in the tavern in Lothering by Loghain's men, her opinion gains even more weight, once it becomes clear Loghain's actively looking for you.

As for the Mages, again, she has a point. The Mages are controlled by the Chantry via the Templars, and flatout forbidden from many types of magic. Hell, if the Chantry or the Circle knew the truth about Wynne they'd have her executed. Add to that the fact that the Circle has practically fallen, so most of the Mages are either dead or turned into Abominations, and the Templars could well be more helpful against the darkspawn. They might not have magic, but they've got the numbers and are trained to fight. When she sees the Circle she sees the complete opposite of what she has been taught magic is, the powerful all but enslaved. Is it any surprise she wants it torn down?

After my first character found Flemeth's Grimoire in the Circle Tower, and Morrigan came to her later and said that Flemeth planned on killing/possessing her to extend her own life, I could not see any problem with that. After all, Flemeth did do my character and Alistar a solid by saving out lives at the end of the battle of Ostagar. The way I see it, I owe her. Morrigan OTOH, has done nothing but bitch and complain and be an idiot. If the game gave me a choice, I'd help Flemeth do the deed.

So you don't see any problem with Flemeth taking Morrigan as a child, by who knows what means, and raising her solely to serve as a new vessel for her form? Bearing in mind that Morrigan's personality is more of a reflection of her upbringing at Flemeth's hands than anything else? Flemeth saved you and Alistair for one reason alone; self interest. None but Grey Wardens could end the Blight, and Flemeth knew, even tells you that. She only saved you because she could use you, just as she's using Morrigan.

Do I like Morrigan as a character? Actually yes, I just don't generally put her in the party because I tend to paly mages. So I handle offense as an Arcane Warrior/Bloodmage, and bring along Wynne to handle healing and support magic. That and keeping on Morrigan's good side can be problematic.

[SubRosa]

Leliana: You are very beautiful Morrigan.
Morrigan: Tell me something I do not know.
Leliana: But you always dress in such rags. It suits you I suppose. A little tear here, a little rip there to show some skin. I understand.
Morrigan: You understand I lived in a forest, I hope?

And that is the best reason to not wear something as ridiculous as that top, but something substantial instead. Her boobs would be falling out everytime she turned around, and be getting scratched up by every branch, burr, and prickly thing in the forest. It is something made by the game designers to titillate adolescent males.

Actually I've always thought she had a point when it comes to going after Loghain. His powerbase is practically non-existent, and few nobles would be inclined to trust him after the debacle at Ostagar, regardless of him trying to pin it all on the Grey Wardens. He might be the second most powerful man in Ferelden, once Highcastle gets trashed, but he's also the least popular among the nobles. And after getting attacked in the tavern in Lothering by Loghain's men, her opinion gains even more weight, once it becomes clear Loghain's actively looking for you.

So you figure three people taking on an entire army all by themselves (with a dog if you did that optional side quest at Ostagar), is winning odds? Remember, he walked off the field with all of his own people intact. While it is true that many people do not like him because he is a commoner, no one is willing to openly rebel against him either. Except for the people like Arl Eamon, whom he has already taken care of. The politics really do not matter though. Three people vs. an army is what it boils down to. That is a purely suicide.

As for the Mages, again, she has a point. The Mages are controlled by the Chantry via the Templars, and flatout forbidden from many types of magic. Hell, if the Chantry or the Circle knew the truth about Wynne they'd have her executed. Add to that the fact that the Circle has practically fallen, so most of the Mages are either dead or turned into Abominations, and the Templars could well be more helpful against the darkspawn. They might not have magic, but they've got the numbers and are trained to fight. When she sees the Circle she sees the complete opposite of what she has been taught magic is, the powerful all but enslaved. Is it any surprise she wants it torn down?

Oh, I am not fan of the way Mages are enslaved by the Chantry either. But the fact is that if Morrigan had been taken to the Circle as a child, her blood tucked away in a phylactery, and then raised there, she would be exactly like every other mage there. She would either toe their line, be Tranquiled, or be killed. So her contempt for the Circle Mages just comes across as her being too thick to see that there but for the grace of the Maker, she would be herself. It is not simply a lack of empathy, but a lack of the intellectual ability to see the inescapable position that the mages are placed in. If Morrigan was really against the idea of mages being enslaved by the Chantry and Templars, she would not be eager to stand by and watch the Templars slaughter a bunch of mages. She would be saying the opposite - "Lets go kill those Templars". She's on the Chantry's side. The same people who would kill her if they knew she was an apostate mage. She's like a Jew saying "Let's go help those Nazi's kill other Jews".

I also disagree with the idea that the Circle is useless after Uldred's attempted revolution. We find several mages still alive and well in the Tower, either hiding from the blood mages and abominations, or keeping them at bay. We find more after the tower is cleared. We also have a brief wilderness encounter where we come across mages killing a small horde of darkspawn. That right there is the game clearly demonstrating their worth. OTOH, the Templars are not even willing to go into the tower to clean it out without waiting for an army to back them up. That is not a ringing endorsement of their abilities.

So you don't see any problem with Flemeth taking Morrigan as a child, by who knows what means, and raising her solely to serve as a new vessel for her form? Bearing in mind that Morrigan's personality is more of a reflection of her upbringing at Flemeth's hands than anything else? Flemeth saved you and Alistair for one reason alone; self interest. None but Grey Wardens could end the Blight, and Flemeth knew, even tells you that. She only saved you because she could use you, just as she's using Morrigan.

I would have a problem with Flemeth doing that to Alistar or Leilana, or many of the other characters. But in Morrigan's case it is simply good riddance to bad rubbish. I really do not see her behavior as a reflection of Flemeth's parenting, but rather simply her own lack of intelligence and prickly personality. Plenty of kids have good parents and turn out to be absolute shats. The same in reverse. My parents raised me to be a homophobic racist. That did not stop me from dating African-American women. When it comes down to it, who you are and how you behave is your own responsibility. Morrigan has no one to blame but herself for her behavior.

I do agree that Flemeth did have some small bit of self-interest in saving the Warden (it makes it sound like you run a prison!). But that does not mean you owe her any less. The simple fact is you would be dead if not for her. Most people in her position - rogue mages vamprically sucking the life out of others to live forever - don't go out of their way to help the Good Guys. I am not convinced that she would have been in any real danger if she had just let you die at Ostagar. She had already demonstrated that she was capable of hiding herself and her home from the darkspawn horde when it was in the Kocari Wilds. After Ostagar the horde moved on, making it even safer for her. That is reinforced by that fact that you can go back to her place later and she is still there, alive and well. She could have very easily left the entire thing for other people to worry about. Why should she care if the rest of the world burns? The only thing she absolutely needs from the rest of the world is a new vessel to inhabit every sixty or so years, and if the darkspawn kill everyone in Thedas, she will have to move to a new continent to find more babies to raise/inhabit.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Jan 6 2014, 11:26 PM

[Callidus Thorn]

So you figure three people taking on an entire army all by themselves (with a dog if you did that optional side quest at Ostagar), is winning odds? Remember, he walked off the field with all of his own people intact. While it is true that many people do not like him because he is a commoner, no one is willing to openly rebel against him either. Except for the people like Arl Eamon, whom he has already taken care of. The politics really do not matter though. Three people vs. an army is what it boils down to. That is a purely suicide.

Who said anything about taking on an army?

What's this idea of meeting them in open battle? Infiltrate the palace and kill him. Problem solved. Hell, you can walk openly around Denerim, despite orders to have you killed. In a later mission you infiltrate the Arl of Denerim's estate, so getting into the palace to assassinate Loghain is a possible and viable course of action.

Oh, I am not fan of the way Mages are enslaved by the Chantry either. But the fact is that if Morrigan had been taken to the Circle as a child, her blood tucked away in a phylactery, and then raised there, she would be exactly like every other mage there. She would either toe their line, be Tranquiled, or be killed. So her contempt for the Circle Mages just comes across as her being too thick to see that there but for the grace of the Maker, she would be herself. It is not simply a lack of empathy, but a lack of the intellectual ability to see the inescapable position that the mages are placed in. If Morrigan was really against the idea of mages being enslaved by the Chantry and Templars, she would not be eager to stand by and watch the Templars slaughter a bunch of mages. She would be saying the opposite - "Lets go kill those Templars". She's on the Chantry's side. The same people who would kill her if they knew she was an apostate mage. She's like a Jew saying "Let's go help those Nazi's kill other Jews".

I also disagree with the idea that the Circle is useless after Uldred's attempted revolution. We find several mages still alive and well in the Tower, either hiding from the blood mages and abominations, or keeping them at bay. We find more after the tower is cleared. We also have a brief wilderness encounter where we come across mages killing a small horde of darkspawn. That right there is the game clearly demonstrating their worth. OTOH, the Templars are not even willing to go into the tower to clean it out without waiting for an army to back them up. That is not a ringing endorsement of their abilities.

Morrigan was kept from the Circle by the very same perosn who taught her about it, Flemeth. So her opinion is much the same as Flemeth's, who has taken magic far beyond what any mage of the Circle would be capable of. And Morrigan would hardly think along the lines of "there but for the grace of the Maker", considering she openly states to Leliana that she doesn't believe in him.

The only reason the mages are enslaved is because they allowed it to happen. Drawing a parallel between them and Jews and Nazis is ridiculous. The mages could actually do something to change their situation, but they don't. To use your parallel, these are Jews sitting in concentration camps, with better guns than their guards, that they are trained to use, yet they're content to just sit there in captivity. Because they're too scared to do anything about it. And these Jews are actually helping the Nazi's keep order in the camps. I imagine that in that scenario, other Jews would indeed want them dead, because at that point they are willing participants in their own enslavement.

Take the mage origin, where the First Enchanter actually demands that you tell him what Jowan is planning, because he is practising magic banned by the Chantry. They enslave themselves, and Morrigan despises them for their weakness, is that really so hard to understand?

As for the Templars performance when the Circle falls, you are told that they were prepared for a few abominations, not the horde that attacked them. And I never said that the Circle was useless, but with them gone every Templar in Ferelden could be called to fight the darkspawn, as opposed to maybe two dozen mages. I'd argue the templars would make for a more effective force.

And it would thin their ranks nicely, a bonus for any Wardens from the mage origin.

I would have a problem with Flemeth doing that to Alistar or Leilana, or many of the other characters. But in Morrigan's case it is simply good riddance to bad rubbish. I really do not see her behavior as a reflection of Flemeth's parenting, but rather simply her own lack of intelligence and prickly personality. Plenty of kids have good parents and turn out to be absolute shats. The same in reverse. My parents raised me to be a homophobic racist. That did not stop me from dating African-American women. When it comes down to it, who you are and how you behave is your own responsibility. Morrigan has no one to blame but herself for her behavior.

So you seriously think an upbringing where she had limited contact with people, relied on either herself or Flemeth, on top of Flemeth's teaching had nothing to do with the way she is?

You raise a child to think and act in a certain way, isolated from those who think differently, then that's how they end up thinking and acting. And that's what happened to Morrigan. She didn't have much in the way of exposure to other ways of thinking until being sent out of the wilds with the Warden.

And considering that of those people she did meet, all of them would have turned her over to the Templars for execution, for no better reason than fear and blind ibedience to a religion she openly scorns, would certainly lower her opinion of people in general.

I do agree that Flemeth did have some small bit of self-interest in saving the Warden (it makes it sound like you run a prison!). But that does not mean you owe her any less. The simple fact is you would be dead if not for her. Most people in her position - rogue mages vamprically sucking the life out of others to live forever - don't go out of their way to help the Good Guys. I am not convinced that she would have been in any real danger if she had just let you die at Ostagar. She had already demonstrated that she was capable of hiding herself and her home from the darkspawn horde when it was in the Kocari Wilds. After Ostagar the horde moved on, making it even safer for her. That is reinforced by that fact that you can go back to her place later and she is still there, alive and well. She could have very easily left the entire thing for other people to worry about. Why should she care if the rest of the world burns? The only thing she absolutely needs from the rest of the world is a new vessel to inhabit every sixty or so years, and if the darkspawn kill everyone in Thedas, she will have to move to a new continent to find more babies to raise/inhabit.

Small bit of self interest?

Flemeth can do nothing to stop the Blight. And there's the Archdemon to consider. An old god, tainted and driven to destroy everything, a monster that only a Grey Warden can stop. Sure she can hide from the unthinking horde, but from the Archdemon?

And bear in mind that her interest in the Wardens is not some spur of the moment thing. The fact she preserved those treaties demonstrates just how serious a threat she considers the darkspawn to be. If she could simply hide from the Blight, then there's no need to protect those treaties. She knew that one day, she might need the Wardens, and protected those treaties to ensure that they could deal with a Blight.