Star Wars Thread 1: The Phantom Post, Star Wars Options

[Dark Reaper]

Eh Star Wars thread on the Bethesda forums lets bring it here. Anyway if anyone here love Red Letter Media and the Star Wars Pizza Roll review then you're in luck cause He's Baaaaack.

I love the part where he talks about the connection between the prequels and the original trilogy as it give you an insight that the prequels COULD have worked as proper Star Wars films, but it was the sloppy writing that did the most damage. The review is giving me an urge to rewatch the prequels.......Excuse me I need to take a shower in hot water and cry uncontrollably.

[Callidus Thorn]

Less on Lucas' ability to pull it off and more on the Jedi's basic ability to understand what was said to them, really. Like, Dooku actually said to either Anakin or Obi-Wan that the Senate was actually in control of the Sith and come Revenge when the reveal was set up, they were actually surprised! Derp

To be fair to the Jedi, I'm not sure if its said just how many knew how clouded the Force had become, and how little the Jedi Council could actually see. And it's not as though Obi-Wan(I'm pretty sure it was him)had any reason to trust Dooku, who was not only one of those who turned away from the Order, but was working with those who'd imprisoned him(If I'm remembering the scene correctly).

Essentially all the Sith do is backstab one another. I believe Dooku was fooled into Sidious' plan and genuinely believed he had a part to play in the great Sith-dominated future. Darth Vader was seduced but he also planned on using Sidious to save Padme. After Palpatine revealed himself as a Sith Lord and became his new mentor, I think Vader began to see some similarities with him and Obi-Wan. There's a part in the novel that explains this well enough. In the end Vader wanted to overthrow The Emperor and rule the galaxy with Padme.

Strictly speaking it's not all the Sith do. They have unified numerous times, generally for another crusade against the Republic or the Jedi. But their philosophy does lead them to think a certain way, and knowing what they've done(or would be prepared to do) in the name of acquiring power, it's no real surprise.

Dooku knew what the Jedi had become; enforcers propping up a corrupt and failing Republic, then he learned it was all part of an elaborate and long term Sith scheme. My guess is that he felt more trapped than anything else: It was too late to save the Jedi, centuries too late, and he knew how much damage had been done in previous Sith wars against the Republic. In one of the books he even goes so far as to try and return to the Jedi Order. And Vader was more a dark Jedi than a Sith at that point, considering how at the end of the film he was throwing around words like "evil" in relation to the Jedi(which felt hilariously forced, by the way). And let's face it, Vader's idea of overthrowing Palpatine was far better handled in The Empire Strikes Back.

I still think the clone inhibitor chip introduced in the Clone Wars cartoon was a bad idea.

*snip*

Yeah, that does sound like a horrible idea.

But Order 66 was very much a blanket policy. It couldn't be used to remove a general, only to remove that entire level of the chain of command. Having a contingency plan to remove pretty much everyone between the commander-in-chief and the clone commanders in the field does seem a little extreme. But then, the Clone Army was always part of the trap, they just didn't know it.

One of the things I like about some of the Clone Wars books is that some of the clones, usually commandos who have more independence than the standard clone trooper, didn't carry out Order 66. In particular I'm rather fond of the Republic Commando books, though no so much the last one, as they explain(or in other words, patch the holes of) a lot of what went on.

Personally, I think Order 66 has its problems. For one thing, if entire levels of the chain of command have turned traitor, not just certain individuals, then that's the sort of thing that would require actual evidence. If the president of the US issued an order to summarily execute every high ranking officer in the army on charges of treason, without a shred of proof or even the pretense of due process, I sincerely doubt even a single shot would be fired.

And that's the one of the biggest problems the movies have, in my opinion. It's clones versus droids, and frankly you might as well call it meat droids versus metal droids, going on the films. But the more you humanise the clones, the harder it becomes to square that unthinking, unquestioning response to Order 66. Because as far as the film is concerned, not one clone questioned or disobeyed that order. And it's not just Jedi in the field that were being targeted, but those at the Jedi Temple who hadn't even been involved in the fighting. To use your US example again, if the order in the previous paragraph were extended to include the summary execution of children on the same charge, the army would just turn around and arrest the President.

The kind of unthinking obedience displayed by the clones fundamentally undermines any attempt to present them as anything more than droids made of flesh and bone instead of metal. The inhibitor chip is a shoddy patch for a problem that shouldn't have existed in the first place, in my opinion.

[Darkness Eternal]

Yeah, that does sound like a horrible idea.

But Order 66 was very much a blanket policy. It couldn't be used to remove a general, only to remove that entire level of the chain of command. Having a contingency plan to remove pretty much everyone between the commander-in-chief and the clone commanders in the field does seem a little extreme. But then, the Clone Army was always part of the trap, they just didn't know it.

One of the things I like about some of the Clone Wars books is that some of the clones, usually commandos who have more independence than the standard clone trooper, didn't carry out Order 66. In particular I'm rather fond of the Republic Commando books, though no so much the last one, as they explain(or in other words, patch the holes of) a lot of what went on.

Personally, I think Order 66 has its problems. For one thing, if entire levels of the chain of command have turned traitor, not just certain individuals, then that's the sort of thing that would require actual evidence. If the president of the US issued an order to summarily execute every high ranking officer in the army on charges of treason, without a shred of proof or even the pretense of due process, I sincerely doubt even a single shot would be fired.

And that's the one of the biggest problems the movies have, in my opinion. It's clones versus droids, and frankly you might as well call it meat droids versus metal droids, going on the films. But the more you humanise the clones, the harder it becomes to square that unthinking, unquestioning response to Order 66. Because as far as the film is concerned, not one clone questioned or disobeyed that order. And it's not just Jedi in the field that were being targeted, but those at the Jedi Temple who hadn't even been involved in the fighting. To use your US example again, if the order in the previous paragraph were extended to include the summary execution of children on the same charge, the army would just turn around and arrest the President.

The kind of unthinking obedience displayed by the clones fundamentally undermines any attempt to present them as anything more than droids made of flesh and bone instead of metal. The inhibitor chip is a shoddy patch for a problem that shouldn't have existed in the first place, in my opinion.

Yes. You're right. When you mention evidence being required and proof for the charges put to light, what comes to mind when Mace Windu essentially tried to murder Palpatine without a trial. But again this brings your point up about the other Jedi in the temple being targeted.

I recall James Luceno's work in Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader.

"The order made no sense at the time," Climber answered for everyone. "We thought it might be a Separatist trick."

"What you 'thought' has no bearing on this," Vader said, pointing at Climber. "You are expected to follow orders."

"And we follow any reasonable ones. Killing our own didn't qualify."

Vader continued to point his forefinger at Climber's chest. "They weren't your allies, squad leader.

They were traitors, and you sided with them."

Climber stood his ground. "Traitors how? Because a few of them tried to arrest Palpatine? I still don't see how that warrants a death penalty for the lot of them."

The issue here was humanizing them in the first place. I am very ticked off the Republic Commando books are non-canon anymore. After Disney took over, plenty of the good stuff was removed and while they may take inspirations from Legends, it won't be the same.

[Callidus Thorn]

Yes. You're right. When you mention evidence being required and proof for the charges put to light, what comes to mind when Mace Windu essentially tried to murder Palpatine without a trial. But again this brings your point up about the other Jedi in the temple being targeted.

They tried to arrest Palpatine, who accused them of treason and then attacked, so I wouldn't exactly call it murder.

But there are no redeeming features to that entire sequence. It's just awful from start to finish, to the extent that I had to find a video of it because I'd erased it from my memory.

I recall James Luceno's work in Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader.

"The order made no sense at the time," Climber answered for everyone. "We thought it might be a Separatist trick."

"What you 'thought' has no bearing on this," Vader said, pointing at Climber. "You are expected to follow orders."

"And we follow any reasonable ones. Killing our own didn't qualify."

Vader continued to point his forefinger at Climber's chest. "They weren't your allies, squad leader.

They were traitors, and you sided with them."

Climber stood his ground. "Traitors how? Because a few of them tried to arrest Palpatine? I still don't see how that warrants a death penalty for the lot of them."

I love that book. It did so much more for the transformation from Anakin Skywalker to Darth Vader than the entire prequel trilogy did.

It's kind of funny how the books spend so much times patching holes and generally doing a better job of telling the stories, given Lucas' disdain for the Expanded Universe.

I am very ticked off the Republic Commando books are non-canon anymore. After Disney took over, plenty of the good stuff was removed and while they may take inspirations from Legends, it won't be the same.

Well, it looks like they've already started pinching bits from the Expanded Universe, if episode seven is anything to go by. It sounds like they just mixed episode four and Knight of the Old Republic together and made a film out of it.

[Darkness Eternal]

I love that book. It did so much more for the transformation from Anakin Skywalker to Darth Vader than the entire prequel trilogy did.

It's kind of funny how the books spend so much times patching holes and generally doing a better job of telling the stories, given Lucas' disdain for the Expanded Universe.

I am very ticked off the Republic Commando books are non-canon anymore. After Disney took over, plenty of the good stuff was removed and while they may take inspirations from Legends, it won't be the same.

Well, it looks like they've already started pinching bits from the Expanded Universe, if episode seven is anything to go by. It sounds like they just mixed episode four and Knight of the Old Republic together and made a film out of it.

True. Hell, even the Revenge of the Sith novel did an amazing job with Skywalker in my opinion. The reason he wanted Mastery was to gain access to the holocrons and discover the secret to saving his wife. The movie didn't go full detail.

Maybe because of that's the reasonThe Bearded One hates EU.

Now I meant to say that Mace Windu tried to execute Sidious/Palpatine. The Jedi Masters went to arrest him, he resisted, and then Windu decided that keeping the Sith alive would be dangerous. That's when Anakin interevened. So it was treason . . . from my point of view