Abortion, Legal or Illiegal, poll and debate? Options

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

This is my position........

Abortion, unless done purely for the purposes of offsetting an imediate threat to the mother's life (choice 2) is murder by definition. Murder is the deliberate and pre-meditated killing of another human that is not done in self-defense. Upon what definition does a human fetus not constitute a human. It is the form taken by a human life at a certain stage of it's growth and development, it is not any other species therefore it is a human life. To draw an arbitery line in the sand at a certain point of the growth and development of a human life is ridiculous.

Sure the embryo at very early stages of it's development isn't conscious, but so what? Are we to excuse everyone who kills his victims say when in deep sleep, or while knocked out, on the basic that since they aren't presently conscious, they aren't officially human. The position of the embryo is exactly the same as the sleeping person, though they aren't conscious at present they will become so at a later point as their development reaches whatever mysterious point that they need to get too to become conscious. The fetus is thus 100% alive and 100% human and the process of abortion makes it 100% dead and 100% human, hence abortion is murder.

What about the other pro-abortion argument that the embryo/fetus constitutes a part of the woman's body. This doesn't make sense either. The embryo/fetus has a seperate genetic code (unless it's a clone) from it's mother and though it is totally dependant on it's mother for everything still constitutes a seperate entity inside the mothers body. If the fetus is considered part of the mother, that would mean that she can logically claim to be a bacterium, a virus, an intestinal worm or an ameoba, as all of these could also be inside her, along with millions of other parisites.

So abortion is murder.

[Sinder Velvin]

[quote=Alexander,Aug 4 2005, 06:49 PM]
I was conceived through an accident myself, and if I then had the knowledge of what I would be put through, what I would be made to endure and what life I would have at least up untill now, and had at the same time the choice to abort, I think i would.
I think I would prefer nonexistance, to this.

[/quote]

Awwwww...

[quote=Slayer of Cliffracers,Aug 4 2005, 03:39 PM]
Hence what goes on before conception is in the context of this debate irrelevant.

[/quote]

I disagree.

[quote=Slayer of Cliffracers,Aug 4 2005, 10:38 PM]
Those who attempt to shy away from the problem by advocating abortion are not only un-ethical but also frankly cowardly aswell. Only the symptoms can motivate people to face up to the disease.
This is the harsh and somewhat unpallatable truth.

[/quote]

Two things.

1:

[quote=Epy,Aug 3 2005, 05:49 PM]
Please, folks. Avoid all manners of unnecessary hostility. We've had quite enough of that already.
That includes putting words or entire sentences in caps (annoying, rude and unncecessary), "smirky sarcasm", challanging others to prove you wrong in a negative tone and putting words in other people's mouths.
These discussion and debate threads (any thread here, really) share a goal to allow people to share and argue their views without being afraid have them be met with insults or be patronized.

Respect other people's oppinions, faulty as they may be from your view. Argue your own views sensibly and politely. Thanks.

[/quote]

Feel free to debate, but don't: I) Insult people, II) Claim that you are right and no one should argue with you.

2.Given the following two choices: I) To have an unpleasant life with a child who would also have an unpleasant life and with a woman who I do not love (she would also, normally, have an unpleasant life) and II) To have a pleasant life with a child who would also have a pleasant life and with a woman who I love, I'll choose II.

Why do I choose II? Well:

a) I'll make three people happy instead of making three people unhappy.

b) I usually don't do things that I'm sure will not yield satisfactory results. I'm not an optimist - I don't think that everything will turn out OK.

I know what I can do and what I can't do. And if I can't do something properly, I'd rather just not do it. At all.

An ideology thing.

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Would I regret it? Certainly. Would I ever want to change my decision? No.

Now comes the matter of adoption. I'd regret adoption more than anything.

[quote=Slayer of Cliffracers,Aug 4 2005, 11:48 AM]
It's kind of emotive to put it in these terms, but even the rhetoric of abortion is eerily similer to the rhetoric of the Nazi's in many ways, the main difference is that they've substituted "glorious racial destiny" for "women's right to choose", in other words those that oppose abortion oppose "women's glorious destiny" in effect.

[/quote]

In my humble opinion, comparing those two things is like comparing kids who keep accidentally throwing a ball in a neighbor's yard with: terrorists.

[quote=Slayer of Cliffracers,Aug 4 2005, 11:48 AM]
Does it somehow invalidate the fetus's right to life just beacause it's parents were stupid, no it doesn't.

I assume that the parents are stupid because:

[quote=Stargazey,Aug 3 2005, 02:56 AM]
Condoms are not foolproof, nor are birth control pills.

[/quote]

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[quote=Slayer of Cliffracers,Aug 4 2005, 11:48 AM]
before bieng sent out into the world once more to make the same mistake once-more.

And how are you sure they'll make the same mistake again?

[quote=gamer10,Aug 5 2005, 02:46 AM]
someone who has already gone through half of their life.

[/quote]

Half? So 15 year old girls who get pregnant can only live up to 30 years?

[quote=Dantrag,Aug 5 2005, 07:15 AM]
Because nobody's life is all bad, and you would never know if the good times were worth it or not.

[/quote]


One day of happiness is not worth 364 of unhappiness.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

So we should kill everyone who is poor and whose life is going to be less than 100% perfect. Fine logic for mass murder I guess. We have free will folks. We don't have to make other people's lives miserable nor do we have to kill them to do it, it all lies ultimately on the shoulders of all. Stop trying to decide which shade of black is blackest and my fellow pro-lifers please stop debating as though the purpose of this debate is to do just that. Sure the world sucks, but it doesn't have too, we made it that way and it solves nothing basing our belief systems on a depressive, determanistic fatalism directly inspired by the handiwork of our own evils. And the arguments of the pro-abortion crowd unfortunately appear to be based upon just this dark fatalism. We cannot make the world the better place by becoming murderers, evil feeds off evil.

And by what definition is the deliberate and pre-meditated killing of a human fetus 'developed' or not not murder. Is the human fetus not a human or am I missing something?