Abortion, Legal or Illiegal, poll and debate? Options

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

This is my position........

Abortion, unless done purely for the purposes of offsetting an imediate threat to the mother's life (choice 2) is murder by definition. Murder is the deliberate and pre-meditated killing of another human that is not done in self-defense. Upon what definition does a human fetus not constitute a human. It is the form taken by a human life at a certain stage of it's growth and development, it is not any other species therefore it is a human life. To draw an arbitery line in the sand at a certain point of the growth and development of a human life is ridiculous.

Sure the embryo at very early stages of it's development isn't conscious, but so what? Are we to excuse everyone who kills his victims say when in deep sleep, or while knocked out, on the basic that since they aren't presently conscious, they aren't officially human. The position of the embryo is exactly the same as the sleeping person, though they aren't conscious at present they will become so at a later point as their development reaches whatever mysterious point that they need to get too to become conscious. The fetus is thus 100% alive and 100% human and the process of abortion makes it 100% dead and 100% human, hence abortion is murder.

What about the other pro-abortion argument that the embryo/fetus constitutes a part of the woman's body. This doesn't make sense either. The embryo/fetus has a seperate genetic code (unless it's a clone) from it's mother and though it is totally dependant on it's mother for everything still constitutes a seperate entity inside the mothers body. If the fetus is considered part of the mother, that would mean that she can logically claim to be a bacterium, a virus, an intestinal worm or an ameoba, as all of these could also be inside her, along with millions of other parisites.

So abortion is murder.

[Megil Tel-Zeke]

please don't refer to yourself as the advocate for society, it is not WE that choose to have an abortion, it is the choice of the two individuals involved. And for free will, you would be willing to compromise the free will of that couple who wishes to have an abortion.

and...

Sure the world sucks, but it doesn't have too, we made it that way and it solves nothing basing our belief systems on a depressive, determanistic fatalism directly inspired by the handiwork of our own evils.

WTF O.o please don't fancy up you sentence with elaborate words, it can be just as efficiently administered through a shorter, and simpler straightforwards approach.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

Stop avoiding answering my question. Upon what basis is a human fetus not a human. And if it is human, on what basis is killing it not murder.

[Burnt Sierra]

Stop avoiding answering my question.  Upon what basis is a human fetus not a human.  And if it is human, on what basis is killing it not murder.

Darkwing, Sinder, Alex and many others have replied to your question countless times. Would you please stop just repeating the same argument over and over again. We understand your point of view, you've expressed it often enough, we realy don't need to see it expressed yet again, ok? Now a couple of posts up, Sinder was kind enough to print the rules for discussions in this forum. Before you make another comment, can I suggest you read them again.

[Dantrag]

Darkwing, Sinder, Alex and many others have replied to your question countless times. Would you please stop just repeating the same argument over and over again. We understand your point of view, you've expressed it often enough, we realy don't need to see it expressed yet again, ok? Now a couple of posts up, Sinder was kind enough to print the rules for discussions in this forum. Before you make another comment, can I suggest you read them again.

I really didn't see his statement as rude or inconsiderate, even if it was a bit repetitive.

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Someone said something about having 364 days of unhappiness?(sinder, I think?) that is highly unlikely, to say the least.

A poor life (financially) isn't always a bad one.
A life with one parent isn't always a bad one.

What other scenarios are there when connected to a teenage parent? Yes, there is the occasional abusive father, but quite honestly, that doesn't happen all that much. In my family we have quite a bit of teen pregnancy, and often the babies go to the parent's mother until the parent can take care of it.

If you were given the choice to live or be aborted, you wouldn't even try to live and make the best of it? Crap happens to me all the time, I don't get depressed and wallow in self-pity. I just keep going and make the best of it. Maybe that's just me and I'm the only one that finds it easy to do.

I don't understand why parents can't be more supportive, in all honesty. Would it really be so hard to take care of your pregnant daughter and your new grandchild? I would be a little disaappointed in my daughter, I have to admit, but I wouldn't shun her and kick her out of the house. We would move on and welcome our new family member.

Even if abortion isn't made illegal (like I hope) I at least hope that it will be avoided at all costs. I don't understand why the mother's life is always put in front of the baby's. Is it because it can't defend itself? I still don't understand why not being ready is any kind of excuse, because adoption exists. I don't see why the baby having a bad life is an exuse, because who can really know if it will really have a bad life? Who can say whether or not it would rather live a bad life, than not live at all? The disagreement between Sinder and I on that subject says that you can't.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

Alright you've answered my question Megil Te Zeke, I now know you're stance.

At a very early stage of development the human fetus does indeed look like a wierd alien sea creature (I've used this analagy before) same as all other vertabrates do at that stage of development. But if the human fetus does look like that at that stage of development so what? It makes no sense to value a human life entirely on the stage of development that it has presently reached, this would mean that an adult is legally more valuable than a child and a child than a toddler and a toddler than a baby. It simply makes no sense to judge the value of a human life on the basis of the stage of development it has presently reached.

From my understanding of fetal development, the sperm fertalises the egg forming a human cell, which divides and carries on dividing until it reaches a certain size, then it forms itself into the "wierd alien sea-creature" and from that it develops a brain, heart, limbs, other internal organs and a general human baby shape, which owing too our protective parenting instincts we feel protective towards. The point is that it is illogical to put greater value on the cute baby shaped blob of human cells, than a wierd alien sea-monster shaped blob of human cells, or a spherical blob of human cells, or the 17 year old blob of cells that's writing this post, beacause if this were the case then the above would also apply, there is only difference of time and stage of development and complexity of cell specialisation between the spherical blob of cells and the 17 year old blob of cells afterall.