Object Shadows - Not Included Options

[Neela]

Well the main forums were all ablaze tonight over object shadows apparently are not included. For my part I think the game looks great. I played Morrowind for years before I even realized that I had the shadow option turned off. Most games that have shadows I usually turn off the option anyway.

I think shadows do add to what I call "atmosphere" games, like Thief games. Characters cast nice soft shadows.. that is enough for me. For every object to cast a shadow would have been really tough for any GPU to handle in real time. This I know from the rendered pictures I create what a big difference in processing time for pictures with shadows vs. without.

After reading many of the threads in the main forums, I guess I never really even expected object shadows in the first place. Which is why I don't feel too upset with this news.

Can anyone tell me why this is such a big deal for alot of people? Or is it simply that we are to that point where anything and everything we hear about Oblivion will sound negative compared to our hype and expectation for it?

[Kiln]

I'm not sure but I would assume that they aren't included in either version of the game.

Though it's not likely that people will even notice the lack of shadows during gameplay so it's not that big of an issue to me, people will probably be more busy exploring the aspects of the game than worrying about the shadows. But you know that's just my opinion.

Minque:The morrowind shadows weren't that good, the shadow system couldn't tell a square shield from a circle shield or even if the character was wearing armor...not that I could do better mind you.



This post has been edited by Kiln: Jan 29 2006, 11:09 PM

[Dreadlord7]

I'm not sure but I would assume that they aren't included in either version of the game.

Not all Shadows.

Anyway, Gavin "kathode" Carter have made plenty of comments regarding the shadows. First is a comment from an interview with Beyond3D

They are a form of shadow maps, though the technique we’re using currently differs from the one we showed at E3. Our initial shadow tests were done using cube maps on every surface, but after extensive testing we found them to be too slow overall to use as a general solution. We have switched to doing single shadow maps directed at characters. The system supports full self-shadowing and we do multiple samples and depth comparisons to provide a soft-shadowing effect. The net effect we’ve achieved is a system general enough to handle Oblivion’s diverse environments while still providing great visuals and good performance.

The shadows I talked about in the Beyond3D interview (http://www.beyond3d.com/interviews/oblivion).  Only characters get shadows now. 

Other than that, no major changes have taken place in either the renderer or art assets that would affect quality of visuals on a global scale, so if you think it looks worse then it's an effect of video compression or low settings (or you've just been looking at Oblivion stuff way too long )

Sorry if I was vague.  Characters cast shadows on everything.  Objects don't cast, they just receive shadows from characters.  The exception is the trees - tree canopies cast shadows down on everything like you see in the screenshots.

No more universal shadows.  They're all exact representations of the character.  And they're soft shadows, if that wasn't clear.  And they stretch and fade over distances.

Shadows are something that have to be tested throughout the entire world to make sure the system handles every area possible. The system we're using now differs 100% from the one we were using. If we wanted to maintain two completely distinct shadow systems, we'd effectively double our workload as far as testing and bug-fixing goes. That would be what you would call "not smart."

This post has been edited by Dreadlord7: Jan 30 2006, 01:31 AM

[Dreadlord7]

Comments from Steve "MrSmileyFaceDude" Meister.

Take a look at this picture.

Every piece of food, every plate, bowl, cup, fork, knife, the books, scroll, soul gems, gold coins, and winebottles, plus everything on the shelves and table in the background, is an object that you can pick up. You can read the books, you can eat the food or combine it to make potions, drink the wine, or sell all of it. Or you can take it somewhere else and put it in a pile. You can drag the items around, you can use telekinesis to manipulate them, you can hit them with your weapon, or you can fire an area effect spell at them and they'll all go flying.

OR, we could change it so that the objects are static -- there's no interaction, they're fixed in place. Instead of an apple in a bowl for example, you'd see a "bowl of apples" object that you could never move, that would act as a container and always looked full of apples even if you took all of the apples out. Either that or there's nothing there but static, non-interactive objects, and we only allow you to place items from your inventory into containers and not into the world. Because that's the type of thing we'd have to do -- on PC or on Xbox 360 -- to allow everything to cast shadows of their own.

So which is more important to you? Shadows on everything, or lots of stuff to interact with, take, drop, use, buy or sell?

You've already HAD a straight answer. Read this interview with Gavin at Beyond3D.

Here's the relevant quote:

Could you discuss the dynamic shadow technique you're using? They appear to be a form of shadow maps.

They are a form of shadow maps, though the technique we’re using currently differs from the one we showed at E3. Our initial shadow tests were done using cube maps on every surface, but after extensive testing we found them to be too slow overall to use as a general solution. We have switched to doing single shadow maps directed at characters. The system supports full self-shadowing and we do multiple samples and depth comparisons to provide a soft-shadowing effect. The net effect we’ve achieved is a system general enough to handle Oblivion’s diverse environments while still providing great visuals and good performance.

Are your dynamic shadow implementation a feature across all supported systems, perhaps scaling the detail on low-end machines, or are they a high-end only checkbox? How would you describe the qualitative jump from Morrowind?

They will be supported across all systems. We will have options to toggle features like self-shadowing and the softening effect, as well as to adjust the number of characters receiving shadows to improve performance for lower end machines. The jump from Morrowind is significant. Since we aren’t doing stencil shadows anymore, our current system is more accurate while using less fill cost. Also, shadows use world space coordinates instead of Morrowind’s screen space coordinates, allowing us to do more dramatic effects like fading out and softening the shadows over distances.

Pay particular attention to the part in blue.

From Developer EmilPags: (found here )

Shadows... Wow, I don't think Gavin's quote could have gotten more misconstrued and downright mangled. Hiding... in your own shadow? How would that even work? Guys, come on. No, you do not hide in your own shadow, and yes there are still shadows, and yes the light levels still effect stealth. And playing a stealth character is really, really fun... Seems to be one of the most popular character archetypes for the Bethesda devs when they playtest.

This post has been edited by Dreadlord7: Jan 30 2006, 01:39 AM