Coffee Shop Forever, It's time to kick bottom and drink coffee! Options

[Lady Syl]

Rick - I agree with you on all of it. I am proud of the good of our country and what it's supposed to stand for. But I am disappointed in many things our country has been doing lately... Dems and Repubs (I'm neither--I am mostly liberal, but slightly conservative...if that makes sense...)


And I like your idea about the 30% taxes.... Never heard an idea like it before.

This post has been edited by Lady Syl: May 2 2011, 10:08 PM

[mALX]

Oh my...I have to weigh in on this now...

First the disclaimer...the opinions expressed in this post are soley my own and do not represent the opinions of anyone smarter then me...

Iraq war...I don't believe we should have done it. We were duped into believing Saddam had WMD when the intelligence on this was sketchy at best. Having said that, if we HAD found WMD, I would eat the previously typed words. My personal opinion is that W wanted to finish what his daddy started and used 9/11 as an excuse.

Afgan war...When we went there, I was all for it. To me it was the Bin Laden hunt and not a war. But it has dargged out into a no win situation with a questionable exit strategy and timeline. Having said that, if we weren't over there, Bin Laden would still be alive right now. So it's a double-edged sword for me today, in light of last nights events.

Proud to be an American...(This one is toward Lady Syl...with no offense meant) The only way good education and decent healthcare will become available to the masses, instead of just to those who can afford it, is to get the Republicans out of office. I'm not a diehard liberal, but these people that aren't willing to chip in out of their pockets to live here (pay taxes) just piss me off. But even with all of our government's faults, there is no greater country in the world to live in. The fact that we can have this discussion is proof of that. I could not be prouder to be an American. The only part of America that I am not proud of are the 5% of the population at the top of the economic food chain that control more than 50% of this nations wealth.

At the risk of going further out on a limb...Personally, I think this country needs to go to a flat tax. Everyone pays the same percentage. 30%. If you make $100.00, you take home $70.00. What can you do with 100 million dollars that you can't do with 70 million dollars, besides by vacation homes, extra automobiles, and the occasional Lear jet. If everyone paid a flat tax, there would be no need for the IRS, because you don't file taxes anymore. That saves a load of cash right there. A 30% flat tax would run the country at a surplus and start paying down the debt.

ok....I'm off my soapbox now....

Oh, I agree with you 100% that we shouldn't have been there, I was just pointing out that we were not just asked to help them - we were begged to help them.

And you are exactly right that W was using 911 as an excuse to fulfill his Dad's promise to the Iraqi people that the US would help them. George Sr. took it hard when Saddam tortured and killed those he had promised to help, he gave his word he would and then couldn''t. W saw 911 as an opportunity to clear his Dad's conscience.

By the way, your flat tax idea is a great one !!

This post has been edited by mALX: May 2 2011, 10:19 PM

[TheOtherRick]

Flat Tax Poll - 2 Yeas...0 Nays...let's start a movement!

[grif11]

just heard on the news about osama.

Im not sure what to make of it, since yes it is good the man behind 9/11 and the london attacks is (supposedly) gone, but now the taliban are going to be fighting over who the new leader is going to be, and their going to be planning something big as revenge.

Also, my vote wouldnt mean much to you lot, since we get free healthcare, and its probably a completely different system (I dont do politics/big numbers), but it is a good idea.

This post has been edited by grif11: May 2 2011, 10:32 PM

[Lady Syl]

Flat Tax Poll - 2 Yeas...0 Nays...let's start a movement!

Sweet! How do we go about doing this?

just heard on the news about osama.

Im not sure what to make of it, since yes it is good the man behind 9/11 and the london attacks is (supposedly) gone, but now the taliban are going to be fighting over who the new leader is going to be, and their going to be planning something big as revenge.

I just hope this is all over soon.

Me too. I am worried that the repercussions could be even worse.

[mALX]

Attention: House Compound For Sale !! Recent updates make this a must see !! Owner had to leave in a hurry, you will find this dream home fully furnished, with only several hundred holes in walls needing patched. Carpeting is a unique bright red pattern.








1.5 million, 9 black goats, 6 cows and 1 camel - or best offer!


*

This post has been edited by mALX: May 3 2011, 05:44 AM

[Dantrag]

There is WAY more to the Osama story than meets the eye.

#1 I find it hard to believe that the US killed him. Why kill someone with so much information that you've been hunting for the past 10 years? Either he's still alive and in custody (they just tossed his body into the ocean? really?) or they never found him in the first place.

#2 Who is even to say that he was even responsible for the attacks? Sure, we all have accepted that fact without question, but I've never been shown real, actual proof, and never heard anyone offer to give it. (The US claims to have classified data that proves his guilt, and the tape where bin Laden supposedly admits guilt has been criticized for being poorly translated)

I'm not a conspiracy theorist; I just realize that there are multiple sides to every story, and we only get to hear the one made up by Uncle Sam.

[grif11]

This is why I hate politics.

everything they claim to have done comes with no proof because its "classified".

Really, If there going to be saying stuff thats hard to believe, give us some proof of the deed, or dont bother telling us.

Also, Obama said that Osama was killed because "he was unarmed but resisted arrest" which I find ridiculous, since they could have either sedated or restrained him, since he stood no chance against a group of trained soldiers unarmed.

[Olen]

I'm going to agree with Dantrag here. The whole affair makes me uneasy.

We invaded Afghanistan to get him, hundreds of thousands of dead, ours and theirs, later we've killed him and there's wars across the world. Was it worth it? I'm not aware of any evidence that he actually did it, fair enough al qaeda seem the most likely candidates but it's hardly a monolithic organisation. Getting rid of the Taliban would have been ok, had we any idea what to do then and had the UN been involved, but history shows that Afghanistan is not a good country to get tangled up with.

Then we invaded Iraq looking for weapons which didn't exist and finding oil which did. Maybe there was more to it, but if it was really the Iraqi people we cared about why leave Saddam there ten years ago when there was a popular uprising in places? Again I don't like it. There is also the fact that there was no al qaeda presence there before because they hated Saddam's Ba'ath party (indeed they offered to attack Iraq in the run up to the first gulf war), now there is.

I don't really see how any of this helps, yes bringing him to justice is good, but in a court with a Jury not some assassination. And invading other countries has so far arguably strengthened extremist resistance. As I said the whole thing is a bit of a disaster.

On the subject of taxation a question: why would you go for flat rate over a sliding scale? In the UK it is 20% to £37,400 (I suspect there was a committee involved here), then 40% to 150k then 50% beyond that. Frankly if you're on over 150k you can afford it...

[Lady Syl]

I'm going to agree with Dantrag here. The whole affair makes me uneasy.

We invaded Afghanistan to get him, hundreds of thousands of dead, ours and theirs, later we've killed him and there's wars across the world. Was it worth it? I'm not aware of any evidence that he actually did it, fair enough al qaeda seem the most likely candidates but it's hardly a monolithic organisation. Getting rid of the Taliban would have been ok, had we any idea what to do then and had the UN been involved, but history shows that Afghanistan is not a good country to get tangled up with.

Then we invaded Iraq looking for weapons which didn't exist and finding oil which did. Maybe there was more to it, but if it was really the Iraqi people we cared about why leave Saddam there ten years ago when there was a popular uprising in places? Again I don't like it. There is also the fact that there was no al qaeda presence there before because they hated Saddam's Ba'ath party (indeed they offered to attack Iraq in the run up to the first gulf war), now there is.

I don't really see how any of this helps, yes bringing him to justice is good, but in a court with a Jury not some assassination. And invading other countries has so far arguably strengthened extremist resistance. As I said the whole thing is a bit of a disaster.

On the subject of taxation a question: why would you go for flat rate over a sliding scale? In the UK it is 20% to £37,400 (I suspect there was a committee involved here), then 40% to 150k then 50% beyond that. Frankly if you're on over 150k you can afford it...

This is true... You have made many excellent points here.

[Captain Hammer]

First off, I'd like to thank everybody for their birthday wishes. It's both gratifying, and immensely humbling, to see so many responses on the Birthday thread, especially since I noticed a particular lack of impersonal birthday messages therein. I say that here, on account of the fact that I feel that thread is for wishing others a Happy Birthday, and not to put myself on there to remind everybody else that I exist. You guys and gals do that yourselves, and each one of you rocks in a way to make Zenithar grin.

Okay, my 24-hours of "YOU MUST BE HAPPY!!!!" is officially over, so I now feel fine getting into this debate with all my opinions.

[Commence SOAP BOX]
When it comes to dealing with mass murderers and the types of persons willing to indiscriminately kill innocent civilians in pursuit of some radical agenda, the historical record is pretty clear on the benefits of trials. Although Adolf Hitler was never captured and tried for his crimes, the Nuremberg Trials were an important tool in bringing the Nazi Regime to justice. Granted, that's a historically debated issue as well, but much of the subsequent work in rebuilding Europe needed those trials to manifest a concrete example of the pursuit of justice.

I view Osama bin Laden as a monster cut from the same cloth and dyed in the same process as Hitler. Sure, you change the colors from Nazi-fascism to Islamic-extremism, but the core message of hatred and intolerance, to be enacted by any means necessary, stems from the same source. My grandparents would have preferred to have seen Hitler put on trial with the rest of his regime. I know that I already feel the same way about bin Laden. But I also know that there's no place on this earth for people like him.

Ultimately, I think I'm going to view his death as a necessary thing, neither good nor evil in itself, but required as some small counter-weight to the evil that man inflicted upon this world. As a mostly-deontological person, I normally view the death of any person as some type of wrong, whether a greater evil like murder, or a lesser evil in the case of self-defense. I can't bring myself to do so here. I would have preferred to see him put on trial. I know that his death doesn't end things, that global terrorism is not some organized mass of dominoes that will all topple now that one person is out of the picture. But it's a step in the right direction.

I agree with the president's decision to give the go-ahead. I think the SEAL team that did this represents the high pinnacle of U.S. Special Forces, and that their courage, and their skill, made the operation possible. I think that our operations in Afghanistan will benefit from this event. And I think the sea-burial was the best possible solution, both as a consideration of the time constraints for Islamic burial, and as a measure to prevent a grave-site from becoming a place for pilgrimage.

As for the war itself, both in Afghanistan and in Iraq, my feelings on each are mixed. Ultimately, I favor our involvement in the former, not our involvement in the latter, feel that we have incurred a massive debt to our troops (some of whom I got to know through various means), and that we need to acknowledge reconstruction as the only way to prevent this from happening again. For my longer, more detailed explanations of my feelings on the wars, and our obligations, feel free to PM me, and I'll send a response once I have composed one. But I've gone on long enough here, and I have things to do before I sleep. Plenty to do, before I sleep.
[/End SOAP BOX]

This post has been edited by Captain Hammer: May 4 2011, 06:42 AM

[TheOtherRick]

I'm going to agree with Dantrag here. The whole affair makes me uneasy.

We invaded Afghanistan to get him, hundreds of thousands of dead, ours and theirs, later we've killed him and there's wars across the world. Was it worth it? I'm not aware of any evidence that he actually did it, fair enough al qaeda seem the most likely candidates but it's hardly a monolithic organisation. Getting rid of the Taliban would have been ok, had we any idea what to do then and had the UN been involved, but history shows that Afghanistan is not a good country to get tangled up with.

Then we invaded Iraq looking for weapons which didn't exist and finding oil which did. Maybe there was more to it, but if it was really the Iraqi people we cared about why leave Saddam there ten years ago when there was a popular uprising in places? Again I don't like it. There is also the fact that there was no al qaeda presence there before because they hated Saddam's Ba'ath party (indeed they offered to attack Iraq in the run up to the first gulf war), now there is.

I don't really see how any of this helps, yes bringing him to justice is good, but in a court with a Jury not some assassination. And invading other countries has so far arguably strengthened extremist resistance. As I said the whole thing is a bit of a disaster.

On the subject of taxation a question: why would you go for flat rate over a sliding scale? In the UK it is 20% to £37,400 (I suspect there was a committee involved here), then 40% to 150k then 50% beyond that. Frankly if you're on over 150k you can afford it...

First I'll address the tax point. I feel...and again this is only my opinion...that a country that preaches equality for all should have that equality in all facets. A 30% number is a fair price to pay for living in the greatest country on Earth. Personally, if it provided free health care and free education, I would pay more than that.

I have already agreed with your point on Iraq. We should have finished the job when we were there the first time, instead of W having to find an excuse to finish it. We had the world behind us the first time because we were punishing an aggressor (the Kuwait invasion). The second war just pissed the world off.

Regarding Afghanistan, President Bush (in one of the few moments that I truly admired the man) stated that we would make no distinction between those that committed the act and those that harbored them. The Taliban government should have listened and kicked Osama out of their country. Their mistake. But now that we have killed the man, our business there is concluded from an objective point of view. Unfortunately, the country is such a mess now that we can't leave until the Taliban has lost the ability to wage war and a stable government can be installed by the people of Afghanistan.

Now I have a couple of nits to pick. Before I do, please remember that this is a healthy debate, not an argument, so I am not trying to anger anyone. First, "hundreds of thousands dead" is over stating it a bit. Tens of thousands or just over one hundred thousand is more accurate. Second, there is no doubt at all the Osama bin Laden was responsible for 9/11. The intelligence and evidence is way to strong. Strong enough to convict him in a court of law. He is dead because he choose to fight rather than surrender. That is the way of Muslim extremists. One can't get to paradise in a jail cell.

That being said, there is plenty of additional blame that can be doled out to the United States government for 9/11. We had several opportunities to capture or kill Osama before 9/11 happened, but because of politics, it didn't happen. We knew he was going to try it. We didn't stop him before he could.

[Thomas Kaira]

If I may interrupt for a moment...

Schools out for summer, now.

[haute ecole rider]

For you maybe, but not for me!

[King Coin]

If I may interrupt for a moment...

Schools out for summer, now.

same here. just got out of last final.

[Acadian]

For TK and KC: Happy summer!

For Rider: Best wishes as you continue to plug away on that MBA!

[Lady Syl]

If I may interrupt for a moment...

Schools out for summer, now.

Ahh, I remember those days... Congratulations! Enjoy your summer!

[Olen]

First, "hundreds of thousands dead" is over stating it a bit. Tens of thousands or just over one hundred thousand is more accurate

For Afghan the current casualties are of order 20,000 dead and something like 50,000 injured. Still a high price to pay.

While I agree it seems likely that bin Laden was behind 9/11 he did deny it for several years which seems odd as he'd nothing to lose from taking responsibility... Also I've not seen this evidence, it's not public and having been lied to about weapons in Iraq I'd like to see it before I personally will be fully convinced, this is of course just my opinion. But I agree that he almost certainly did it (or at least knew about and supported it). I also agree that given that he appears to have the Taliban should not have sheltered him, however somewhere in the region of 9000 Afghan civilians were killed removing them many of whom probably hated the Taliban.

When I said hundreds of thousands I was referring to both wars. The death toll in Iraq is somewhere in the region of 900,000 with a further 1.6 million injured. Of the 900,000 dead the vast majority (over 850,000) were civilians. Add to this the half a million (UNICEF figure) Iraqi children who died as a direct result of sanctions after the first gulf war and I think it's fair to say a major victim of the whole affair has been the people of these countries we invaded. Really if it's to be for anything we need to rebuild these countries before we leave so that they can thrive and leave no room for the unpleasantness which grows so well in ruined countries.

Obviously these are the facts (well as close to fact as it's easy to find in such a volatile topic, the numbers were mainly from a report published in the lancet however I'd take them a ballpark figures and I've put opinions through them), what you make of them is of course your decision. I think more diplomacy might have been for the best, and not leaving Saddam in place the first time. However that's easy to say with a decade of hindsight.


On the subject of summer - enjoy it. Another 16 days for me (not that I'm counting...).

This post has been edited by Olen: May 5 2011, 09:15 PM

[D.Foxy]

When later historians remonstrated with Hugh Trevor-Roper on the horrific costs of World War II, in particular the allied bombings of Hamburg, Berlin, and Dresden, which killed at least 7 times - or perhaps even 10 times - MORE civilians than the German Luftwaffe did in its raids on British, Dutch, French, and all other allied cities COMBINED, Trevor-Roper Replied -

"The Greater Moral Sin would have been LOSING WW II".

Just the fact that Saddam's downfall caused the Libyan Nuclear Programme to come to a complete halt, the Syrian Progamme to go into stealth (and snail) mode, the Iranian Programme to lie low for at least three years, the A.Q. Khan network to be hamstrung, and the N.K. program of "proliferate for money" to lose one of its most eager - and rich - customers, would have justified in MY mind all the deaths that were caused.

And that's not even counting the thousand and one other benefits, some big, some small, some obvious now, some that have been becoming obvious in the past months, and some that will bear fruit in the decades to come, that will accrue to the USA, Europe, the Middle East, and the World at large.

Some people appear to think the world was born yesterday, the same age as themselves. I know - and historians know - that the problems of today had causes that go back at least half a century, and sometimes 3-400 years back.

And I also know this - that this is not the first time naive and myopic idiots have created the conditions for war out of an idealistic desire for peace. It was only 60 years ago that the pacifists of France and Britain, combined with the prejudiced and ignorant isolationists of the USA, created the political conditions that nearly allowed Herr Schicklgruber to overrun the world. It was only 30 years ago that the ideological children of these same pacifists were working night and day to ensure that NATO and the West would be disarmed and defenceless against Stalin and his heirs and imitators. It was only 30 years ago that the Hollywood glitterati, the American Literati, and the Liberal P.H.D'd militancies took out full page advertisments in American praising - wait for it - the POL POT GOVERNMENT of Cambodia.

Then as now they used the entire gamut of cherry-picked truths, half-truths, truth and lies in a blender, and even outright barefaced lies to serve their agenda.

(And for the record, I will say that not only has the Lancet lied, but its statistical cherry-picking and fact-cooking has been proved to be lies more than 5 years ago).

I for one am proud to be the heir to generations past that have stepped into combat against murderers in front and liars behind, and to be mentor to those who shall follow in our footsteps.

For heed this. The War 1914-1990 has ended, but the War 2001-? will go on beyond the lifetime of any of us on this forum. Our words on this forum - including these words of mine - matter for naught: it is our actions in our lives that count.

[mALX]

* Snip *

WOOOOOOOOOT !!!!