Your Writing Process, And/Or Problems with Same Options

[ghastley]

If you want to combine a journal format with conversation etc. then use the journal entry just as an introduction to the character's reminiscing about the actual events.

e.g.

Day 1
Travelled to Anvil. Met a mage on the road.

Of course, it wasn't just a mage, it was Hannibal Traven. "Arch-mage," I said, "what brings you out of the Imperial City during the Crisis?" ...

Each line of the journal could be a whole post here, if enough happened.

This post has been edited by ghastley: Mar 5 2014, 02:23 AM

[Callidus Thorn]

That might actually solve both issues...

Thanks!

*scurries off to start typing*

Edit: Wow, this is definitely working. Thanks Ghastley.

This post has been edited by Callidus Thorn: Mar 5 2014, 05:35 PM

[SubRosa]

The journal style is not how I usually write, so it is hard for me to give useful advice. However, I do recall that Bram Stoker's novel Dracula was all done in the style of a journal, and it did include large slices of dialogue. In fact, it was basically just written in 1st Person with the date and the name of whose journal it was from at the head of every chapter. You might try looking at that for ideas. Given how old it is, the copyright has lapsed, so you can read it online for free. Here is an example:

Jonathan Harker's Journal Continued

5 May.--I must have been asleep, for certainly if I had been fully awake I must have noticed the approach of such a remarkable place. In the gloom the courtyard looked of considerable size, and as several dark ways led from it under great round arches, it perhaps seemed bigger than it really is. I have not yet been able to see it by daylight.

When the caleche stopped, the driver jumped down and held out his hand to assist me to alight. Again I could not but notice his prodigious strength. His hand actually seemed like a steel vice that could have crushed mine if he had chosen. Then he took my traps, and placed them on the ground beside me as I stood close to a great door, old and studded with large iron nails, and set in a projecting doorway of massive stone. I could see even in th e dim light that the stone was massively carved, but that the carving had been much worn by time and weather. As I stood, the driver jumped again into his seat and shook the reins. The horses started forward, and trap and all disappeared down one of the dark openings.

I stood in silence where I was, for I did not know what to do. Of bell or knocker there was no sign. Through these frowning walls and dark window openings it was not likely that my voice could penetrate. The time I waited seemed endless, and I felt doubts and fears crowding upon me. What sort of place had I come to, and among what kind of people? What sort of grim adventure was it on which I had embarked? Was this a customary incident in the life of a solicitor's clerk sent out to explain the purchase of a London estate to a foreigner? Solicitor's clerk! Mina would not like that. Solicitor, for just before leaving London I got word that my examination was successful, and I am now a full-blown solicitor! I began to rub my eyes and pinch myself to see if I were awake. It all seemed like a horrible nightmare to me, and I expected that I should suddenly awake, and find myself at home, with the dawn struggling in through the windows, as I had now and again felt in the morning after a day of overwork. But my flesh answered the pinching test, and my eyes were not to be deceived. I was indeed awake and among the Carpathians. All I could do now was to be patient, and to wait the coming of morning.

Just as I had come to this conclusion I heard a heavy step approaching behind the great door, and saw through the chinks the gleam of a coming light. Then there was the sound of rattling chains and the clanking of massive bolts drawn back. A key was turned with the loud grating noise of long disuse, and the great door swung back.

Within, stood a tall old man, clean shaven save for a long white moustache, and clad in black from head to foot, without a single speck of colour about him anywhere. He held in his hand an antique silver lamp, in which the flame burned without a chimney or globe of any kind, throwing long quivering shadows as it flickered in the draught of the open door. The old man motioned me in with his right hand with a courtly gesture, saying in excellent English, but with a strange intonation.

"Welcome to my house! Enter freely and of your own free will!" He made no motion of stepping to meet me, but stood like a statue, as though his gesture of welcome had fixed him into stone. The instant, however, that I had stepped over the threshold, he moved impulsively forward, and holding out his hand grasped mine with a strength which made me wince, an effect which was not lessened by the fact that it seemed cold as ice, more like the hand of a dead than a living man. Again he said.

"Welcome to my house! Enter freely. Go safely, and leave something of the happiness you bring!" The strength of the handshake was so much akin to that which I had noticed in the driver, whose face I had not seen, that for a moment I doubted if it were not the same person to whom I was speaking. So to make sure, I said interrogatively, "Count Dracula?"

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Mar 5 2014, 09:25 PM

[Callidus Thorn]

I've read Dracula, probably one of the things that contributed to me wanting to write it as a journal, and the first conversation I wrote straight into the journal entry, just like in Dracula. It just seemed to flow into that one though, after that point it was like I was trying to force them in.

After adopting Ghastley's suggestion I've written about two pages, most of it conversations as sort of recollections the journal leads into, like writing triggered them, or at least that's what I'm aiming for.

[ghastley]

So post some, and let us condemn helpfully critique it.

[Callidus Thorn]

Well, I suppose I could post one of the parts, I'm still working on bits of it, so it's too soon to start a thread for it. If there's anything I need to change better to do it now that after I've been carrying on the wrong way for a dozen entries.


The Journal of Eldrar Andrethi, Second entry, 27th of Last Seed, 3E 433

When I reached the Imperial City, I found I was expected. Three Legionnaires were waiting for me, each with a hand of the pommel of their sword, watchful eyes following every move the crew made. It seemed the Marie Elena had a reputation here as it did in Morrowind, and the expressions on the faces of the Legionnaires spoke volumes about what they thought of me arriving on this ship. Their leader, a silver armoured giant with a matching claymore slung across his back, shot me a sneer darker than my skin. “Eldrar Andrethi. I am Captain Hieronymus Lex of the Imperial Legion. Come with us.”

I had been expecting something like this, but I couldn't help asking; “Are you arresting me, Captain?”

The two Legionnaires behind him shifted their stance, preparing to draw their blades at the slightest hint of trouble. Their Captain, however, was far more relaxed. “No, but make no mistake, you're in our custody. The Mages Guild was informed of your imminent arrival, and asked us to ensure that you found you way to the Arcane University. If you'd rather resist arrest, then by all means, try to escape. It's been a rather dull watch so far, and you might make an interesting, if brief, diversion.” He finished with a cold smile, I'd seen a similar smile on the face of a Morag Tong agent my Mistress once had me hire. Disdain and confidence, mixed with an eagerness that made the expression so very unsettling. It was a smile that promised a swift death, after a very uneven fight.

“Well, in that case lead on, Captain.” What else could I say? And Lex did indeed lead the way, turning his back on me without hesitation, underlining his confidence as his men took up positions behind me, one to each side. What surprised me most was that despite Lex's clear dislike of me, he still gave me what was almost a guide to the city, or at least of those districts we passed through. We attracted more than a few strange looks as we left the Waterfront District. One Dunmer escorted by a Legion Captain and two Legionnaires, not a prisoner but not entirely free either. The Waterfront led to the Temple District, which seemed as much residential as spiritual, row after row of homes dominated by what Lex told me was the Temple of the One. Following that was the Arboretum, a section of the city apparently serving no purpose than to be a garden. I have never seen anything like it, and the smells! So many flowers and plants, each adding their own scent, complimenting each other in both sight and smell. And amongst the green were statues of the Nine Divines, each clearly the work of a master sculptor, the level of craftsmanship showing that they were not merely commissions to the sculptors, but were acts of worship in themselves.

After the Arboretum the Arcane University was something of a disappointment. It certainly lacked the presence of the Council House in Sadrith Mora, though I could feel the magic radiating off the two vast gates, one to either side of what Lex informed me is the Arch-Mage's tower, far stronger than anything I'd ever felt. I was ushered into the tower, though Lex and his men waited outside. Inside were four Battlemages, in Legion armour, one of whom moved behind me as I entered, the rest were already stood before the other doors. In the centre of the room was an Imperial dressed in blue robes, his brown hair streaked with grey, his face showing the lines and weariness of age. Despite the presence of the Legion Battlemages, he seemed completely at ease, as if this situation was an everyday occurrence to him. He stood as I approached him, and gestured to the bench behind him. I'm not sure what I was expecting, but being recruited to the Mages Guild certainly wasn't part of it...

“Eldrar Andrethi, formerly of House Telvanni. I am Raminus Polus, Master Wizard of the Mages Guild, I handle the majority of the day to day running of the Guild. Please, have a seat. There are one or two matters we must discuss.”

Now I knew why he was so calm. Lex was one thing, a man who knew he could face any challenge with blade in hand, but Polus was an entirely different type of animal. Lex could kill me with a single slash of his claymore. Raminus Polus could kill me without even needing to stand. I'm not sure he'd need to do more than nod. So lacking any real options, I sat down on the bench beside him.

Polus reached into a pocket and withdrew a rolled up piece of parchment. “Two days ago, we received this rather unusual message, from an even more unusual messenger. A Winged Twilight flew into University grounds, carrying this. Of course, I had the beast killed, the Mage's Guild does not allow such creatures into Cyrodiil, but the parchment was preserved. It is from a Master Indaran, warning us about a fellow Dunmer, named Eldrar Andrethi. Indaran claimed that you had slain your Mistress and then tried to kill him, leaving him grievously wounded, though he managed to drive you off. He claimed that you had boarded a ship; the Marie Elena, a known pirate ship, and were on your way to Cyrodiil. He asked that you be arrested and sent back to stand trial for your crimes. And I see no real reason to refuse his request, as unorthodox as it is. Ever since the disappearance of the Nerevarine relations with Morrowind have been strained, particularly between our two institutions.”

“And yet, here we are, discussing the matter.”

Polus actually smiled at that. “Indeed we are, for one very simple reason. I do not trust the Telvanni, this Master Indaran. The Guild is not without its more... discreet sources in Morrowind. We learned of his rivalry with your former Mistress, and of the position you held. So we know that he's lying. But this ultimately changes nothing, because I still have no reason not to hand you over to them. The Guild does not approve of freelance magic users here in Cyrodiil, and we see no reason to protect them.”

A smile began to form as I realised that Polus didn't want to hand me over to the Telvanni, if only for the sake of annoying them. “And if I wasn't a freelance magic user?”

Polus nodded his approval, his smile growing a little broader. “Well, the Guild protects its own, within reason of course. All guildmembers must adhere to the code of conduct. Were you thinking of joining? Typically we handle applications at one of the guildhalls, but in light of the circumstances, I suppose we could sign you up now.”

“In that case, I should like to join the Guild, Master Wizard.”

“Please, call me Raminus. Here's a copy of the Mage's Guild Charter. Read it, learn it, live it. Break the rules and you'll find yourself on the way back to Morrowind in chains.”

“What about the letter?”

Raminus' smile widened until it threatened to swallow his ears. “The letter?” He asked, bemusement finding its way into his voice as the parchment in his hands burst into flames. “Unfortunately that was destroyed with the Winged Twilight. We really can't allow such creatures in Cyrodiil, and some of our apprentices were somewhat overzealous in enforcing Guild law.”

Of course, joining wasn't quite as simple as that.

My spellbook was confiscated, and I was given a new one, containing nothing more than the most basic spells I'd had, which was delivered no more than an hour ago. Apparently the Mage's Guild in Cyrodiil has rather strict guidelines about spells and their structures and such, and most of mine were outside of them. But, it at least gave me the time to explore the Market District, where I found my coin stretched further than expected. I was able to purchase a steel cuirass and a pair of iron boots, as well as a steel dagger, and I still have a few hundred septims left. I would've looked into buying some new spells, but without my spellbook I had no way to record them. Memorising spells is all well and good in theory, but once you've got a few dozen of them rattling around your head you begin to appreciate the simple pleasure of writing them down and reading them later.

Tomorrow I'll see what the magic vendors have, and then I'll set out for one of the other cities. I think Chorrol would be the best choice. Conjuration is a powerful tool, and right now all I can do with it is summon a simple skeleton.



So, please, critique away!

This post has been edited by Callidus Thorn: Mar 6 2014, 12:56 PM

[Callidus Thorn]

Hmm, reading that back again, I think maybe I should preface it with a little intro bit, Eldrar writing in his journal, and cut back to it later whenhe starts remembering. Since this is the first time it'll pop up giving it a proper intro would probably be a good idea.

I'll see what I can come up with, see how it meshes...

[PhonAntiPhon]

First off, I'm always in awe of the people who write FanFix on these forums, there is so much creativity and it's inspiring to be even a little part of it.
---
Anyway, for me I have always tended to the dark side, as it were. I find it difficult to write about light and airy subjects and I always have.
that's not to say I'm an introspective sort of a person, filled with existential angst - (although I tried Very Hard in 20s) - but I have always just cleaved to more sombre matters, to hardship, suffering. These things inspire, extreme emotions and situations.
And yet, I always try to look at the endgame, a resolution that speaks of something bright at least; a realisation or a release or atonement of some sort.
But bluntly, I am a Big Fan of pathos.

As I've got older I've undoubtedly got grittier but equally I think I have got a lot more emotionally involved with the characters, perhaps too much in some cases.

The problems I have are that I tend to ramble a lot and kind of drift off into tangents down avenues, if I'm not careful. As a writer I am not terribly structured or disciplined and I do think that that is a weakness, particularly if i ever sit down and try to write something longer than a connected series of vignettes.

[Darkness Eternal]

You and I are alike, Phon. When I pour my mind and will and soul into writing, I tend to go deep into dark and gritty themes. I always preferred a mature-themed story rather than your jolly adventure tale(there is nothing wrong with the latter, by the way).

The thing is my resolution at the end of a broody tale is in the distant future and not at the conclusion of a certain story. For example, in The Lycanthrope Chronicles, my character Vera started off in a bad place that went increasingly worse.

That being said, I'm not afraid to go the happy ending route. I will try it in the future, but right now I'm really building my characters emotionally and they're not so much heroes but anti-heroes with tremendous personality issues and flaws due to deep scars and problems that molded them into the people they are.

Kraven is probably my main mentally tormented character. By trying to do good and help out those he loved, he got in a bad situation that led to an even worse situation that in turn yielded something very bad for him. He became a forced killer and in the end became someone who loves killing. I didn't want to make him the typical psychologically scarred anti-hero who had a childhood experience which haunts him to this very day. He does not live in fear of the 'monster of his childhood' and instead, he wants to kill it. If there's a stereotype, he's the physically mutilated and world weary vagabond, who in actual fact, performs many "knightly" feats, such as protecting the innocent and saving people despite the many he's killed and the fact that he enjoys killing.

I too get emotionally involved. That's why I love writing and immersing myself in a fictitious world. I get to bring an established world alive through my characters. And there are indeed many inspiring writers here in the forums that weaved some incredible stories.

My problem would be that I try to write something and I realize I have to pull the leash on what I post. I understand that blood, entrails and that macabre stuff isn't what makes a story appealing, yet I can't ignore the world. In the Elder Scrolls series we've seen that stuff in the game. We know it isn't a happy rainbow world of unicorns(hell, we're even instructed by a Daedric Lord to kill a unicorn and rip out its horn). If a sword cuts someone, its going to be bloody. If there's magic and sacrifices, there is murder and darkness. If there are political struggles, yeah, there's corruption. While I can't paint the ES world as something completely dark and moody, I can't make it something that it isn't either. Which in turn is why I love writing. We can do almost whatever we want.

[haute ecole rider]

I like dark and gritty, myself. It lends a certain weight to what is otherwise light fantasy. Ignoring the worst people can be is like watching "My Little Pony" episodes.

I do agree that the TES series seem to encourage fan fic that runs to the dark side, given the prevalence of such characters as those described by DE and even PAntiPhon. I only read a bit of Niamh, but I could see that she lived quite the unsavory life (or perhaps a savory one?).

I tend to write characters that are themselves disadvantaged in some way or another. Julian of Anvil is a drunk and an addict, and though she managed to stay sober through the MQ, in the aftermath she will have to struggle with it.

Tallei Luia herself has a dark history as well, and it is shaping how she sees Nirn and how she builds relationships (or rather, fails to build them).

What I enjoy most are stories of redemption, of hope and a future worth looking forward to. It may not happen, but it is there. And that alone is what makes the worst of lives worth living. Despair is the end. And it is the struggle I find most interesting - the struggle not only to survive, but also to find a place in the world that makes life worth living, as opposed to suicide.

Agreed, the rules of this forum puts limits on how we can write these stories. But I don't see this as a limitation, but rather as a challenge. How can you write what is essentially young adult fiction and still convey the dark and gritty nature of the struggle to live? I do think it is possible - it's been done. And it is in rising to this challenge that we hone our skills as writers.

[Vital]

Well, recently I visited the fan-fic forums upon Callidus' recommendation. I'd spent a bit of time reading when I just joined but apart from that I'd not really seen any of the stuff on here. Needless to say, I was blown away by the quality of the writing.

Although it initially strengthened my belief that writing was not for me, I've actually become incredibly inspired to try writing some of my own fan-fic. While it's still hypothetical, I have a few questions that I haven't seen answered in this thread that would help me if I was to do some writing.

Firstly, something related more to creative writing in general rather than fan-fic: I have two ideas for a story in my head. One is a skyrim MQ story involving my character Ravos and the other a story loosely based upon Skyrim's civil war through the eyes of my character Attia. The second idea is the one I'm slightly more enthusiastic about however it's also the one I'm the most uncertain about, mainly because it would mean writing from the perspective of a female character. Although I know Attia as a character really well, I'm worried that as a young male and generally inexperienced writer I would completely butcher her feminine side. She is a bit of a tom-boy, but still a woman. Be brutally honest, is this a bad idea? I'd rather write Ravos' story than do an injustice to Attia's.

Another one, more TES fan-fic related this time. I'm slightly unsure what to do regarding world size, or rather world scale. I know that the games are greatly downscaled, and for good reason. However if I were to right a story about the civil-war, it would not be a battle of 5 man armies. There would be 10s of thousands of men and women on either sides. Long and brutal marches of retreat and advance and epic battles and sieges. Obviously I would have to expand the scale from the game world to make this believable, I'm just not sure to what extent I should do so. Any and all tips and recommendations are accepted

This post has been edited by Vital: Mar 11 2014, 11:28 AM

[Grits]

Callidus, I found your sample above to be an engaging mix of thoughts, description, and dialog. I think you can make this format work for you. If you find you want to cover some things in greater detail or with crisper recollection than someone might manage when reflecting on their busy day, remember that Eldrar is a mage, so he can manage it!

Phon, I’m happy to see that Eilidh has her own story. I think your style suits your characters very well. A connected series of vignettes maintains the mystery. The way you handled the incident with the pig-eyed man is a great example of gritty material presented in a way that engages rather than repels. I look forward to reading more.

Vital, I think you should go with your gut on whether to start with Ravos’ or Attia’s story. I started with a third-person male character rather than the much more comfortable for me first-person female perspective, and I honestly don’t know what I was thinking. Maybe write a little for each of them and see which one best suits your purpose? If Attia’s story really captures your imagination, that might be the one to go for even though it will challenge you more.

For your world scale I’d say make some good notes before you start writing. Get out a map and decide how many days or weeks it takes to travel from Anvil to Skingrad when the roads are in good shape, figure out how long the river and sea journeys would take, and get the scale of various communities clear in your mind. Then you can figure out the distances and such and write them down so you stay consistent. Yay for new stories!

[PhonAntiPhon]

@Vital: I absolutely think that you should try your hand at writing. Its great fun and extremely rewarding apart from anything else; also forums like this are excellent incubators for writing as they allow to really work at something in a relatively protected way, particularly here at chorrol.
So go for it!

As to your other point, Eilidh's Skyrim and Niamh's Cyrodiil before her are significantly bigger than the gameworld implies. There's no issue with this. Fanfix are still creative writing and as such although rooted in the game world are under no obligation to follow it to the letter. Just because the world is only a mile across in the game does not mean it has to be in your story.
Heck, if you read anything I've written you'll see just how fast and loose I play with the lore and events!
It's not the "wrong" version, its really dependant upon how closely you want to stick to the framework the source material provides.

@haute ecole: I have definitely on occasion had issues with the appropriateness of what I have written versus whether I should post it - (not so much on this forum perhaps, but certainly on The Other One) - it's one of the reasons why I have a blog!
But seriously, it does mean you need to be a bit more creative in how you express an idea without it being *too* obvious and it does mean that you can it as an opportunity to approach things in a different way.

On another note I occasionally think that maybe I don't give my characters a break ever, but that's actually untrue, I regard success or redemption through adversity and some sort of catharsis as a very satisfying way to climax a story, and I think that's what I strive for.
In terms of realism, I'm not one to beat about the bush - (hence having to think about what I post) - the worlds my characters inhabit, and they themselves, are flawed and dirty and dangerous and all those things that get editted out of sanitised mainstream stories; characters **** and get nekkid and **** and whatever and I think it's right that - *in context* - that gets included, maybe not here(!) but somewhere!

This post has been edited by PhonAntiPhon: Mar 11 2014, 06:23 PM

[Elisabeth Hollow]

I've decided to re-vamp Kayla's story to match the final chapter, starting from the beginning.

I'm just not sure if I should start a whole new thread or what...

[SubRosa]

Vital, on the subject of writing a female character, the secret is to simply make sure that Attia is a person first, rather than a woman. If you can write a character who has their own unique personality, with their own dreams, goals, flaws, and strengths, then that is all you need to do. Being female comes in second place to all those things. Just as being heterosexual or homosexual or transgendered does, or a human or elf, or an Imperial or Stormcloak, etc... It really does not take anything special to write any of those kinds of people. All you have to do is make them a person first.

On the subject of scale, I think most writers upscale the game world dramatically. You have to if you want it to be in any way believable. Follow Grit's advice on determining your scale. Just decide how long you want for it to get from point A to point B. Then figure out the miles after that.

As a good rule of the thumb, the Roman army typically marched 20 miles in a day. Horses usually went twice that (though wagons loaded down with baggage is another story). An individual person could go farther than that of course, but an army moves together, often down a single road, and that slows everything down.

When it comes to scale of people, I suggest looking at the size of the country you create and then figure out how many people live there. Remember that more space means more farms, more farms means more food, more food means more people, etc... Big cities always had miles and miles of farmland surrounding them.

To compare, at its height in the Classical Era, Alexandria had a million people. So too with Rome and Constantinople when they were at their height. These of course were the leading cities in Europe at the time. Athens and the countryside around it had about 350 - 500k (including slaves). Other cities were smaller. For example, a provincial city like Pompeii had a population of 20,000. So if your Imperial City has a population of a million (or had before the Great War), it is not hard to imagine all the major cities of Skyrim have at least 20k people each, if not up to that half a million in the major holds.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Mar 11 2014, 10:01 PM

[Grits]

Are you going to re-write the whole thing and post it from the beginning? If I did that I'd close my old thread with a note and link to a new thread. Just my thoughts.


Oops, this was a reply to Hollow above.

This post has been edited by Grits: Mar 11 2014, 06:33 PM

[Elisabeth Hollow]

To SubRosa: I remember when writing my fic the first time, I realized in order to have the world actually pan out and be believable, there'd have to be MUCH more people in there. Especially in the Imperial City, fifty people in an entire city wouldn't make sense.

To Grits: Yeah, that sounds good.

[SubRosa]

Elisabeth: I never saw your post. I think we were writing at the same time. I agree with Grits. Start a new thread for the new version. Put a note at the beginning of the old thread saying it is shutdown, and put a link to the new version. Then ask an admin to lock the thread.

[Rohirrim]

Anyone have tips on how to make my characters more relatable/empathe...empatho...more likely to have empathy for? And perhaps dialogue?

[McBadgere]

Easiest tip for dialogue I can think of is...Cast your characters...Think about who you would have play them if it were TV, then write it to how they talk...And properly think about how it would work if they had to say the stuff...

George Lucas was the worst for dialogue, according to Harrison Ford...In the original Star Wars script there was so much technobabble that Ford once told Lucas to his face, "Y'know, George...You can type this *excrement but you can't say it..."...

So think about what needs saying, then think how your fave characters would have to say it out loud...