Waiting4oblivion Parliament, lets try again, shall we? Options

[DoomedOne]

This may seem like a double post but it's not, my last post in this top was on the 19th, it's been a week.

New topic: The grand old Pat Robertson decided to spark some debate.

Exerpt:

There was a popular coup that overthrew him [Chavez]. And what did the United States State Department do about it? Virtually nothing. And as a result, within about 48 hours that coup was broken; Chavez was back in power, but we had a chance to move in. He has destroyed the Venezuelan economy, and he's going to make that a launching pad for communist infiltration and Muslim extremism all over the continent.

You know, I don't know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it. It's a whole lot cheaper than starting a war. And I don't think any oil shipments will stop. But this man is a terrific danger and the United ... This is in our sphere of influence, so we can't let this happen. We have the Monroe Doctrine, we have other doctrines that we have announced. And without question, this is a dangerous enemy to our south, controlling a huge pool of oil, that could hurt us very badly. We have the ability to take him out, and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability. We don't need another $200 billion war to get rid of one, you know, strong-arm dictator. It's a whole lot easier to have some of the covert operatives do the job and then get it over with.

- Pat Robertson

Link, provided by Media Matters

So, because of this quote last night I sat through the entire 700 club, and now I finally understand why so many Christians seem so misled, they've been watching Pat Robertson. The 700 club is like news the same way the Daily Show is like News, they give an exerpt, add a little fib here and there to fill it off, and comment, in order to, in the Daily Show's case, make a joke, or in the 700 club's case, spoon feed oies to Christian Americans all over the country.

Let me give you a little background on Hugo Chaves, because it seems people think he's some sort of dictator.

Venezuala is NOT a dictatorship, and not only that but OTHER candidates are allowed to run, just as a president can run in this country. Hugo Chaves was democratically elected. It is perfectly legitimate and perfectly popular. Something like 85% of the country is in favor of Fidel Castro, and the other 15% tries to make boat trips to the US.

Things that prove Chaves is not a dictator.

There is no law against dissent, the people have a right to dissent.

There is no law against forming Unions, there simply isn't a need for them in a Communist state.

What makes people represent Hugo Chaves as a dictator? As a principle, he hates the US, within reason. He represents the poorest 80% of his nation, and because of that, does not favor the agenda of Oil companies trying to get a good deal in Venezuala.

[Dantrag]

I definately agree that the 700 Club does lie a lot, but I don't know enough about Venezuela and Chavez to have an opinion on whether or not e's a dictator; I'll do my homework and check back a little later. (After I finish all my calculus homework.)

[DoomedOne]

Well, here's why he has bad relations with the US.

Venezuala is something like our third largest inport of Oil, and now what they want to do is give discount oil (45 dollars a barrel) to Jamaica to save the country something like 200 billion dollars so they'll recover from economic turmoil, and give discount oil directly the the US' poorest communities.

Every election Huga Chavez is re-elected with something like 80% in favor because of his staggering movement to end illiteracy and hunger in Venezuala. Big businesses in the United States sponsor media in Venezuala that demonizes Chavez, but the people have basically seen through that and elect him despite it.

Currently Chavez is working with Iran and Cuba to develop weapons programs, and I've already argued why. If you lived in a country the US (the ONLY country marked by the World Court as a terrorist nation) has written on their enemy list, you would be doing the same thing. Iran is very Secular, Venezuala is Communist. Big arrogant bullies make strange bed-fellows. I know, because I deeply dislike the Iranian government.


Here is some info about Chavez taken from Wikipedia

Hugo Rafael Chávez Frías (born 28 July 1954) is the President of Venezuela. A former paratroop lieutenant-colonel who led an unsuccessful coup d'état in 1992, he was elected president in 1998. A highly polarising figure in Venezuela, his presidency has seen sweeping changes throughout the country, including a new constitution, many new social programs, and a new foreign policy distancing Venezuela from the United States.

Since he was elected in 1998 on promises of helping the poor, Chávez's influence over Venezuelan politics has grown. One year after a majority of Venezuelans voted to keep him in office, the popular leader consolidated his power, striking a harsh anti-USA tone. He is up for re-election in 2006, and recent polls suggest he has about 70 percent popularity.

Chávez and his administration have been opposed through confrontational methods by some established sectors in Venezuela, including the business federation Fedecámaras and union federation CTV, resulting in a coup d'état, general strike/lockout, and recall referendum, all of which failed to remove him from office. Although the opposition charged that there was widespread fraud in the recall vote, international observers said the official results matched their counts at polling sites. Subsequently Chávez and his allies have won consistent political victories, occupying the vast majority of elected municipal, state, and national posts, as well as majorities in the supreme court, national electoral council and national assembly.

Chávez has been married twice and is currently separated from his second wife, Marisabel Rodríguez de Chávez. He has four children: Rosa Virginia, María Gabriela, Hugo Rafael and Rosinés.

Learn more.

This post has been edited by DoomedOne: Aug 26 2005, 04:26 AM

[Megil Tel-Zeke]

I definetly disagree to anyone who thinks Chavez is a good president.

especially sine I was in Caracas in '92 during his coup.

[OverrideB1]

There was a suggestion, earlier, that the US should invade Israel instead of Iran. This is possibly the most dangerous idea I've ever heard. If you really, really want to trigger a war that will escalate all the way up to large patches of the world becoming glowing glass car-parks ~ that's probably the best way to do it.

Israel is very very touchy about people pushing them around, and with a damn' good reason. Since the 30's groups of people have been dedicated to wiping them out: on that basis, I'd be bloody twitchy too. "Never forget, never forgive, never again" isn't just a wistful statement for Israel, they really mean it.

I'm also puzzledf as to where the idea that Israel is a dictatorship comes from. Last time I checked, there were democratic elections there...



This is not a flame, or intended to incite. It's just that there is a whole world of difference between a group of people vigourously defending themselves and a genuine dictatorship that wipes out large sections of it's own populace at the whim of the dictator

[Dantrag]

There was a suggestion, earlier, that the US should invade Israel instead of Iran. This is possibly the most dangerous idea I've ever heard. If you really, really want to trigger a war that will escalate all the way up to large patches of the world becoming glowing glass car-parks ~ that's probably the best way to do it.

Israel is very very touchy about people pushing them around, and with a damn' good reason. Since the 30's groups of people have been dedicated to wiping them out: on that basis, I'd be bloody twitchy too. "Never forget, never forgive, never again" isn't just a wistful statement for Israel, they really mean it.

I'm also puzzledf as to where the idea that Israel is a dictatorship comes from. Last time I checked, there were democratic elections there...
This is not a flame, or intended to incite. It's just that there is a whole world of difference between a group of people vigourously defending themselves and a genuine dictatorship that wipes out large sections of it's own populace at the whim of the dictator

Nobody said that anyone should attack Israel, someone merely threw out a good point; Israel and the US dominate the Middle East is if it were a dictarotrship, not that the country itself was, if you understand my meaning.

[OverrideB1]

I view Israel as an opressed state, with a tyrannical dictator. I would rather see us invade Israel than Iraq.

[DoomedOne]

I would like to see people start using words to their actual meanings instead of for rhetorical use to make them sound worse.

Chavez did try an unsuccessful coup d'etat in Venezuela, and if were successful, he would have been a dictator. Luckily he failed, then after made it to presidency a legitimate way, and since then has transformed the country to a socialist democracy and has represented the poorest 80% of the nation. He is not a dictator.

A dictator is someone who leads a state by taking control or inheriting control over it. A dictator is not necessarily bad, though most dictorships are achieved through violence, meaning the dictators tend to be prone to violence as a first solution to a problem.

A terrorist is someone who uses fear as a weapon, that is the definition. A muslim extremist is not a terrorist unless they are using fear as their vehicle to bring about change or do whatever. When the US bombs people, people on the left wing like to call them terrorists, they're not using fear, they're using bombs, fear is a side-effect.

V from V from Vendetta is a terrorist, showing that a terrorist is not necessarily a bad guy. He uses fear as a weapon, but he uses it against his own government, not against the people as a whole.

The US by oppressing other nations absolutely breeds terrorists. The right wing says its BS, but its not. They're pissing people off, then taking their government and their weapons away so they can't fight back with legitimate weapons, so they use fear as their weapon. In Japan after the japanese were basically bankrupt they found a bunch of 18-22 year old kids to crash planes into pearl-habor, their weapon was fear, that was therefore a terrorist act. You may find that breeding terrorists is a necessary consequence to bringing about democracy, or you may not, regardless, that is what the US does.

Good, now stop throwing words around with their improper meanings. Just because they guys in office do doesn't mean we should.

[Megil Tel-Zeke]

Indeed, the coup was unsuccesful, but it was still attempted, i ahve had tanks rolling down the streets, watching several buildings bombed, and finding out that a close friend got a bullet in the back of the head on the way to school.

the fact he attempted a coup shows his intention.

my dad still lives down there, and he dislikes the president, he is a poor man, barely able to scrape by. He is not the only one, the citizens have tried to overthrow him, and Chavez has extended the length in office, in order to stay in power longer. At the moment, it is very difficult to leave the nation, and U.S. dollars are banded from use, so my dad can never send me birthday and christmas money, becuase he is unable to get it switched voer and sent.

hate to say it, but 80% popularity, in LA is unlikely. and sadly lot's of LA nations have extreme corruption in their governments.

so simply becuase stats showed 80% popularity, I highly doubt it, I get my news from venezuelans. so the U.S. might blow things way out of proportions, but things are not ncie and dandy, i know from experience.

and i never said chavez was a dictator, but his intentions so far point that way. When my dad lost his house in the mudslides of '00 Chavez took several days before he even looked at the issue and tried to offer help. and since you probably don't know, most of th poor people live on the hillsides outsides the cities, meaning that they are the ones to really get the blow, and Chavez who is helping the poor, sits back and does nothing for several days.

FYI-- LA is still pretty much controlled by the elite, Sorry if you had an image that it was fair, but i can guarantee you votes mean diddly squat.

This post has been edited by Megil Tel-Zeke: Sep 1 2005, 04:07 AM

[DoomedOne]

Yeah there are about as many questions about voter fraud in Venezuela as in this country. One thing though, the Venezuelian news is very biased against Chavez. He's showing 70% popularity, and the country is living it, because during the coup against him in 2002 they showed the coup movements and had the leader of the coup on TV thanking the networks for their support, then when the Chavez supporters went to the streets and forced the coup leaders out of office so Chavez could come back in, the Networks played reruns of sitcoms. So, it's not like Chavez is corrupting the polls or the media, quite the opposite. I dislike presidents no matter what but Chavez has done a lot for Venezuelans, and in fact this is the first time I've heard of someone getting shafted by his government, aside from his actions in 1992.

[Megil Tel-Zeke]

hmm yes, but everyone knows statistics can easily lie. it all depends on who is polled, who does it, and many other factors.

personally i'm removing myself from this topic, i'm too personally involved to reason with the arguments. and if you wish to believe he is a good president that's your choice ^ ^. I just know it's not that way. living in Latin America for 13 years, I know from an outsider's perspective it seem ot be real. Whether it be Chavez, or Mireya Moscoso.

i'll jsut say that becuase of teh situation in Venezuela i ahven't seen my dad since 1998. and the only reason for that was becuase he got tickets to the World Cup finals, and we met him at the airport and within 90 minutes were on another plane leaving for France.

Despite the goverment I miss the nation.

[DoomedOne]

Yeah it is too bad how harsh he's being on relations with the US, also, obviously I understand you have a better grasp on the situation because you have to live it. Latin America is sort of polarizing. Most of the real brutal dictators in the country are US backed because they support corporations that sell to starbucks and all that nonsense, and then you have leaders like Chavez or Castro who seperate themselves from US policiy and therefore make themselves look like they are in it for the people. I'm not trying toa rgue they're good leaders, I'm just saying... at least they're not puppet governments.

[DoomedOne]

New topic: Hurricane Katrina

Begin!


My Opinion: We had the necessary technology to prevent the levee from breaking even uinder a class 5 hurrcane back in 2001. It would have costed 1.5 billion dollars, but the city would not be flooded like it is. Not only that, but the 1/5 billion, I think, was for general protection against class 5 hurricanes.

Now the situation we have is diseased water carrying pathogens of dysentary, and stuff, meaning no drinking water. People are dying trapped in their attics as we speak. People are supposed to be rescuing the, but do we have the man-power to? No. Who usually helps with disaster relief efforts? The National Guard. Where is the National Guard? Iraq.

And about government response. On TV, there was a doctor demanding that they get help air lifting patients out of the hsopital. he said there's a helipad on the roof, and they need to start moving patients that are in critical condition. Today, what's happening to that hospital? Patients are dying.

The law of looting is shoot to kill. That's the only way in a disaster to maintain control, according to law-enforcement. They have no water, they have no food, they have no power, there's a locked store with food and water, and people are being tackled as they try to break through the windows. It's not their fault, no one is helping them.

And what are we going to do now, about three million refugees? Many are going to houston so they can charge up the homeless population in Houston. It won't work. The only thing I can think of is large corporations setting up factory towns.

This post has been edited by DoomedOne: Sep 3 2005, 06:52 AM

[Channler]

DoomedOne! For once stop looking at everything from a liberal perspective!

Looked, people can buy flood inscurance, but not everyone does. Here in the middle of North Carolina there was a hurricane that brought alot of water for us thus causing a flood. No one here had flood damage insurance and it was considered a flood risk zone.

Now, sure, it was there for us to buy, but the chance of having a flood where I live is very low. The chance of a class 5 hurricane striking anywhere is relativaly low. They weren't prepared for it. Simply put, I doubt that super levies would of stopped the water anyways. Nature always finds a way (eat that eco nazis!)

Have you heard from first hand experience whats going on down there? I've got several cousins that lived in New Orlean (Nu Orlens) and stayed doing the hurricane so that they could help people after it. Guess what, twice they were robbed at gunpoint by random LOOTERS! OMG if I was down there I'd be shooting anyone that came near our property. But if they asked for food and what not I'd gladly help them.

You really don't know our soldiers if you think that they are just going to shoot at every person they expect to be stealing stuff. Shoot to kill for us now means, wait untill your fired at and then try to scare them away, and if they keep on shoot them.

Oh, and isn't it funny how the National Guard helicopters were being SHOT AT! There trying to rescue people and these damn hoods are shooting at them. It doesnt make sense.

Oh by the way, please donate money to the red cross of their equivalents. You can't give man power though because they have no ways to get down there. So just monetary donations please.

EDIT: Also, you do know that Black Caucase (SP) is calling this a rascist deal now.. That erks me..

Did you know that several red cross members were also robbed at gunpoint while they were handing out food and water and clothes? There friggin animals, they've lost their decency

This post has been edited by Channler: Sep 3 2005, 04:04 PM

[DoomedOne]

Alright Chanller calm down.

1. I don't look at anything from a liberal perspective because I'm not a liberal. That's a label you gave me for some of my conviction. I don't think of myself as a liberal, I just look at the facts and make my own judgement. And don't blame it on me watchng the "liberal" news because 1. there's not a liberal bias in the media and 2. I din't watch the news.

2. They had the technology to hold that levee, it would hvae 1.5 billion dollars to withstand a class 5 hurricane.

3. The looter situation with people stealing electronic equipment in a city with no power... I just don't understand. It's like they think the city is going to be useable after the water recedes. Just retards taking advantage of the situation, but as many of them there are, there are more trying to find food and water, because people who can't get any are dying.

4. I doubt the people trapped in their attics are shooting at the National Guard. You know who's shooting at the antional guard, people who have lost their reason, and there are ALWAYS people like that in every situation. Want to stop people from shooting at Nation Guard during disaster relief efforts, you have to take away their guns.

5. So many people live off welfare and lived in shascks I doubt they could afford or even bother with insurance. It's not just a matter on insurance anyway, it's too late for that. The city can't be rebuilt at this point, the government has to step up and jump up the relief efforts. That means pullin the national guards out of Iraq so they can maintain some control. They can't just move refugees to other towns either, these people need homes and jobs. If some corporations set up a few factory towns, that would probably be solution.

[Red]

Ok, just to tell you, I have seen every bit of footage, read all of the reports and have to say, this is sickening. The news keeps talking about these evil looters, but what they never show you is what they are stealing. I have not seen one plasma screen tv, no stereo system, no cash registers, but I keep hearing about electronics being stolen. For example, they show some poor black man smashing a window with a wooden board. Only once have they shown what he was breaking into. A deserted Deli. Yeah, the evil looter was trying to feed his family.

Also, I keep hearing that "we weren't prepared for this". Bull. You weren't prepared because you didn't heed the warnings and reports you've had since 2001. Maybe we would've been prepared if someone cared.

And as a matter of fact, I completely agree with the Black Caucase. I am certain that they would have had protection from Katrina if New-Orleans was filled with upper-class white people. Heck, even middle class whites would have been prepared. Also, I'm sure there would be men down there if a Haliburton or Shell office was down there.

George Bush taking a flight over New-Orleans was sickening. How dare he pretend that he feels for these people. He didn't care enough to let Canada's army and Cadaver dog team come down and help, and he didn't care enough to let other countries (such as Jamaica) help. All that tells me is he doesn't care.

And whats more, five to six days before government help. One day is too long. Actually, one hour is to long. I could have driven to New Orleans about three times from Toronto, including traffic.

Oh, and the helicopters being shot at, anyone think it might be some poor, hungry guy on his roof trying to say "I'm here"? Also, I feel sorry for people being shot at, maybe no one would be crazy enough to shot at them if they had gotten help earlier.

And about food and water, dispicable. Imagine being evacuated but never given food or water for about six days. Or scrathing your way through your attic, getting to a hospital and then dieing not from injury, but from lack of water.

[Megil Tel-Zeke]

New orleans has had plenty of warning before 2001.

the city lies below sea level, Many scientists have been predicting that the city would be catastrophically destroyed by a hurricane one day. But I guess beurocrats thought it was wild speculation and never did anything about it.

[ShogunSniper]

yes, whose idea was it to build a city, what, 6-9 feet below sealevel?

This post has been edited by ShogunSniper: Sep 3 2005, 08:49 PM

[BobV]

Being dutch and living below sealevel (along with most of the population) I take offence to that. They should've taken precautions like we do. We don't even have a chance of hurricanes here.

[DoomedOne]

Europe doesn't get hurricanes like the southeast of the US. See, thanks to global warming, hurricanes that form in a certain spot in the atlantic and the gulf of mexico are 50% more dangerous than they used to be. People don't seem the understand what one degree temperature rise entails. It means the barriers reefs will die, it means hurricans will be getting big enough to wipe out entire populations, it means animals living in arctic areas are going to go extinct and that the water is going to rise high enough to take out coastal cities.

Don't say Global warming doesn't exist, it's too late for that. You can say humans aren't the cause of it if you want, but it's obviously happening.

This post has been edited by DoomedOne: Sep 3 2005, 09:56 PM