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> Star Wars Thread 1: The Phantom Post, Star Wars
Darkness Eternal
post Oct 3 2016, 05:04 PM
Post #21


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Yeah, that does sound like a horrible idea.

But Order 66 was very much a blanket policy. It couldn't be used to remove a general, only to remove that entire level of the chain of command. Having a contingency plan to remove pretty much everyone between the commander-in-chief and the clone commanders in the field does seem a little extreme. But then, the Clone Army was always part of the trap, they just didn't know it.

One of the things I like about some of the Clone Wars books is that some of the clones, usually commandos who have more independence than the standard clone trooper, didn't carry out Order 66. In particular I'm rather fond of the Republic Commando books, though no so much the last one, as they explain(or in other words, patch the holes of) a lot of what went on.

Personally, I think Order 66 has its problems. For one thing, if entire levels of the chain of command have turned traitor, not just certain individuals, then that's the sort of thing that would require actual evidence. If the president of the US issued an order to summarily execute every high ranking officer in the army on charges of treason, without a shred of proof or even the pretense of due process, I sincerely doubt even a single shot would be fired.

And that's the one of the biggest problems the movies have, in my opinion. It's clones versus droids, and frankly you might as well call it meat droids versus metal droids, going on the films. But the more you humanise the clones, the harder it becomes to square that unthinking, unquestioning response to Order 66. Because as far as the film is concerned, not one clone questioned or disobeyed that order. And it's not just Jedi in the field that were being targeted, but those at the Jedi Temple who hadn't even been involved in the fighting. To use your US example again, if the order in the previous paragraph were extended to include the summary execution of children on the same charge, the army would just turn around and arrest the President.

The kind of unthinking obedience displayed by the clones fundamentally undermines any attempt to present them as anything more than droids made of flesh and bone instead of metal. The inhibitor chip is a shoddy patch for a problem that shouldn't have existed in the first place, in my opinion.


Yes. You're right. When you mention evidence being required and proof for the charges put to light, what comes to mind when Mace Windu essentially tried to murder Palpatine without a trial. But again this brings your point up about the other Jedi in the temple being targeted.

I recall James Luceno's work in Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader.

QUOTE
"The order made no sense at the time," Climber answered for everyone. "We thought it might be a Separatist trick."

"What you 'thought' has no bearing on this," Vader said, pointing at Climber. "You are expected to follow orders."

"And we follow any reasonable ones. Killing our own didn't qualify."

Vader continued to point his forefinger at Climber's chest. "They weren't your allies, squad leader.

They were traitors, and you sided with them."

Climber stood his ground. "Traitors how? Because a few of them tried to arrest Palpatine? I still don't see how that warrants a death penalty for the lot of them."



The issue here was humanizing them in the first place. I am very ticked off the Republic Commando books are non-canon anymore. After Disney took over, plenty of the good stuff was removed and while they may take inspirations from Legends, it won't be the same.


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I long for scenes where man hath never trod
A place where woman never smiled or wept
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And sleep as I in childhood sweetly slept,
Untroubling and untroubled where I lie
The grass below—above the vaulted sky.”
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Callidus Thorn
post Oct 3 2016, 05:46 PM
Post #22


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QUOTE(Darkness Eternal @ Oct 3 2016, 05:04 PM) *

Yes. You're right. When you mention evidence being required and proof for the charges put to light, what comes to mind when Mace Windu essentially tried to murder Palpatine without a trial. But again this brings your point up about the other Jedi in the temple being targeted.


They tried to arrest Palpatine, who accused them of treason and then attacked, so I wouldn't exactly call it murder.

But there are no redeeming features to that entire sequence. It's just awful from start to finish, to the extent that I had to find a video of it because I'd erased it from my memory.

QUOTE(Darkness Eternal @ Oct 3 2016, 05:04 PM) *

I recall James Luceno's work in Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader.

QUOTE
"The order made no sense at the time," Climber answered for everyone. "We thought it might be a Separatist trick."

"What you 'thought' has no bearing on this," Vader said, pointing at Climber. "You are expected to follow orders."

"And we follow any reasonable ones. Killing our own didn't qualify."

Vader continued to point his forefinger at Climber's chest. "They weren't your allies, squad leader.

They were traitors, and you sided with them."

Climber stood his ground. "Traitors how? Because a few of them tried to arrest Palpatine? I still don't see how that warrants a death penalty for the lot of them."



I love that book. It did so much more for the transformation from Anakin Skywalker to Darth Vader than the entire prequel trilogy did.

It's kind of funny how the books spend so much times patching holes and generally doing a better job of telling the stories, given Lucas' disdain for the Expanded Universe.

QUOTE(Darkness Eternal @ Oct 3 2016, 05:04 PM) *

I am very ticked off the Republic Commando books are non-canon anymore. After Disney took over, plenty of the good stuff was removed and while they may take inspirations from Legends, it won't be the same.


Well, it looks like they've already started pinching bits from the Expanded Universe, if episode seven is anything to go by. It sounds like they just mixed episode four and Knight of the Old Republic together and made a film out of it.


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Darkness Eternal
post Oct 3 2016, 07:12 PM
Post #23


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From: Coldharbour



QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Oct 3 2016, 05:46 PM) *



I love that book. It did so much more for the transformation from Anakin Skywalker to Darth Vader than the entire prequel trilogy did.

It's kind of funny how the books spend so much times patching holes and generally doing a better job of telling the stories, given Lucas' disdain for the Expanded Universe.

QUOTE(Darkness Eternal @ Oct 3 2016, 05:04 PM) *

I am very ticked off the Republic Commando books are non-canon anymore. After Disney took over, plenty of the good stuff was removed and while they may take inspirations from Legends, it won't be the same.


Well, it looks like they've already started pinching bits from the Expanded Universe, if episode seven is anything to go by. It sounds like they just mixed episode four and Knight of the Old Republic together and made a film out of it.

True. Hell, even the Revenge of the Sith novel did an amazing job with Skywalker in my opinion. The reason he wanted Mastery was to gain access to the holocrons and discover the secret to saving his wife. The movie didn't go full detail.

Maybe because of that's the reasonThe Bearded One hates EU. laugh.gif

Now I meant to say that Mace Windu tried to execute Sidious/Palpatine. The Jedi Masters went to arrest him, he resisted, and then Windu decided that keeping the Sith alive would be dangerous. That's when Anakin interevened. So it was treason . . . from my point of view cool.gif


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And yet I am, and live—like vapours tossed.
I long for scenes where man hath never trod
A place where woman never smiled or wept
There to abide with my Creator, God,
And sleep as I in childhood sweetly slept,
Untroubling and untroubled where I lie
The grass below—above the vaulted sky.”
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Dark Reaper
post Oct 3 2016, 08:13 PM
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For fans of Dash Rendar and Shadows of the Empire I give you The Outrider.
It transforms into a B-wing like attack mode, some say it's not very "movie" accurate but for a collector and before the Star Wars X-wing miniature game came out, its the only thing close to having Dash's cool ship.


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Kane
post Oct 3 2016, 08:34 PM
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I love that game. I still play it at least once a year.
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Callidus Thorn
post Oct 3 2016, 08:51 PM
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QUOTE(Darkness Eternal @ Oct 3 2016, 07:12 PM) *

True. Hell, even the Revenge of the Sith novel did an amazing job with Skywalker in my opinion. The reason he wanted Mastery was to gain access to the holocrons and discover the secret to saving his wife. The movie didn't go full detail.

Maybe because of that's the reasonThe Bearded One hates EU. laugh.gif

Now I meant to say that Mace Windu tried to execute Sidious/Palpatine. The Jedi Masters went to arrest him, he resisted, and then Windu decided that keeping the Sith alive would be dangerous. That's when Anakin interevened. So it was treason . . . from my point of view cool.gif


The movie didn't really go into any detail.

Well, Palps had killed three Jedi in resisting arrest, so he clearly was dangerous. And even without a lightsaber he could cause plenty of damage with his lightning. And that's before considering the way he's manipulated the Senate, the Jedi Order, and by extension the entire Republic. Threats don't really get any bigger than that.

But I'm a little confused here. Doesn't the fact that he's committing treason, on the highest possible scale, pretty much invalidate his position? I mean, he is the one responsible for the war.

QUOTE(Dark Reaper @ Oct 3 2016, 08:13 PM) *

For fans of Dash Rendar and Shadows of the Empire I give you The Outrider.
It transforms into a B-wing like attack mode, some say it's not very "movie" accurate but for a collector and before the Star Wars X-wing miniature game came out, its the only thing close to having Dash's cool ship.


I never played the game, but I read the book. I always thought it was a much better ship than the Falcon, if only because it worked.

But as far as I'm concerned, there's no ship in the Star Wars universe to match the Ebon Hawk!


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Dark Reaper
post Oct 3 2016, 11:54 PM
Post #27


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QUOTE(Cain @ Oct 3 2016, 02:34 PM) *

I love that game. I still play it at least once a year.


I miss that game, I no longer own a N64 but I could hunt down the Pc version.

Edit:
Speaking of which my Amazon order came in, it's the Micro Machines Shadows of the Empire set with Dash Rendar, Leebo, Luke and IG-88's Hounds Tooth (off screen).
Battle of Hoth Playset now with Shadows of the Empire cast.

This post has been edited by Dark Reaper: Oct 4 2016, 03:16 AM


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Dark Reaper
post Oct 6 2016, 08:07 PM
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I finally found Him!!! biggrin.gif


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Callidus Thorn
post Oct 6 2016, 08:53 PM
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QUOTE(Dark Reaper @ Oct 6 2016, 08:07 PM) *

I finally found Him!!! biggrin.gif


You mean you think you've found him... laugh.gif


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SubRosa
post Oct 6 2016, 10:37 PM
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QUOTE(Dark Reaper @ Oct 6 2016, 03:07 PM) *

I finally found Him!!! biggrin.gif

Careful, it could be a trap!


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Dark Reaper
post Oct 7 2016, 01:17 AM
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QUOTE(SubRosa @ Oct 6 2016, 04:37 PM) *

QUOTE(Dark Reaper @ Oct 6 2016, 03:07 PM) *

I finally found Him!!! biggrin.gif

Careful, it could be a trap!


Trap indeed biggrin.gif


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Darkness Eternal
post Oct 7 2016, 01:28 AM
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QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Oct 3 2016, 08:51 PM) *



But I'm a little confused here. Doesn't the fact that he's committing treason, on the highest possible scale, pretty much invalidate his position? I mean, he is the one responsible for the war.


I'd like to think that there's moral ambiguity in the Star Wars Universe, that the Empire and the Emperor at least follow the rule of law, that many of the accusations against the Empire by the rebels are either specious or completely unfounded. But this topic is the one aspect of Star Wars that I absolutely hate, and yet another example of George Lucas' unimaginative writing. Unfortunately, Disney seems to have carried this lack of imagination into The Force Awakens and Rogue One, so the new canon is already fatally flawed.

To answer what you wrote, we know that Emperor Palpatine is not the "good guy" because, at its heart, Star Wars is a staid morality tale with all the usual tropes about good guys and bad guys. Star Wars was even the medium in which the "evil empire" stereotype first developed, later popularized in Reagan's 1983 speech about the Soviet Union. We know that Palpatine is evil because he's a cardboard cut-out of a villain. His outward appearance (hooded and disfigured like your standard Saturday morning cartoon villains), his ridiculous and overly-dramatic mannerisms, and his occasional ranting about absolute power are all the markers of a writer who wanted a prop to stand in as the figurehead of the evil Galactic Empire because he didn't have the time or inclination to create an actual character.

That's the Doylist explanation anyways, which is the only one that makes sense. In the Watsonian explanation, Palpatine would probably argue that he's only evil "... from a Jedi's point of view. The Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way, including their quest for greater power. The difference between the two is the Sith are not afraid of the dark side of the Force. That is why they are more powerful."


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And yet I am, and live—like vapours tossed.
I long for scenes where man hath never trod
A place where woman never smiled or wept
There to abide with my Creator, God,
And sleep as I in childhood sweetly slept,
Untroubling and untroubled where I lie
The grass below—above the vaulted sky.”
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Callidus Thorn
post Oct 7 2016, 08:58 AM
Post #33


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QUOTE(Darkness Eternal @ Oct 7 2016, 01:28 AM) *

I'd like to think that there's moral ambiguity in the Star Wars Universe, that the Empire and the Emperor at least follow the rule of law, that many of the accusations against the Empire by the rebels are either specious or completely unfounded. But this topic is the one aspect of Star Wars that I absolutely hate, and yet another example of George Lucas' unimaginative writing. Unfortunately, Disney seems to have carried this lack of imagination into The Force Awakens and Rogue One, so the new canon is already fatally flawed.


The only moral ambiguity in the original films is found in the Jedi. Obi-Wan and Yoda train Luke to kill his father in ignorance(without telling him, even though they let Luke live under his real name so that Vader knows), try to stop him saving his friends, and don't really care about the Rebel Alliance, just Vader. And then, in Return of the Jedi, Luke ditches the Rebels on Endor to go on a personal mission to bring his father back from the dark side. Clearly the Jedi aren't the good guys, even though Palpatine and Vader are the bad guys, and I actually like that.

And really, you expected Disney to be imaginative when handed a franchise the size of Star Wars?

QUOTE(Darkness Eternal @ Oct 7 2016, 01:28 AM) *

To answer what you wrote, we know that Emperor Palpatine is not the "good guy" because, at its heart, Star Wars is a staid morality tale with all the usual tropes about good guys and bad guys. Star Wars was even the medium in which the "evil empire" stereotype first developed, later popularized in Reagan's 1983 speech about the Soviet Union. We know that Palpatine is evil because he's a cardboard cut-out of a villain. His outward appearance (hooded and disfigured like your standard Saturday morning cartoon villains), his ridiculous and overly-dramatic mannerisms, and his occasional ranting about absolute power are all the markers of a writer who wanted a prop to stand in as the figurehead of the evil Galactic Empire because he didn't have the time or inclination to create an actual character.

That's the Doylist explanation anyways, which is the only one that makes sense. In the Watsonian explanation, Palpatine would probably argue that he's only evil "... from a Jedi's point of view. The Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way, including their quest for greater power. The difference between the two is the Sith are not afraid of the dark side of the Force. That is why they are more powerful."


Sure, it's a shame that Palpatine's a caricature rather than a character, but this doesn't answer what I asked. Palpatine in the prequels is pretty different to Palpatine in the originals, because he has an actual goal, and a plan to accomplish it. And it's actually a pretty good plan. An army cloned from a bounty hunter who can kill Jedi, a stage-managed war that scatters the Jedi across the Republic, surrounded by clone troopers that they believe to be on their side, and a trap that snaps shut without warning. Top that off with Vader and the only thing that actually goes wrong with his plan is getting disfigured by fighting Windu. And if the prequels had been written half-decently he'd get bonus points for being subtle and manipulative in turning Anakin to the dark side. He's not just a bland, cackling overlord.

But calling Windu trying to kill him treason implies that his actions in no way invalidate his position as Chancellor of the Republic, and that's what I was asking about.


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Dark Reaper
post Oct 9 2016, 07:58 PM
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Man my Star Wars collection is growing, the newest figures are the U-wing and an Imperial Ground Worker. So far I like the U-wing as it has a pretty neat design to it.

This post has been edited by Dark Reaper: Oct 18 2016, 03:30 AM


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Dark Reaper
post Oct 21 2016, 02:50 AM
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Got the new Rogue One Death Star and compared to the old Galoob one it's pretty awesome.

IPB Image

This post has been edited by Dark Reaper: Oct 21 2016, 08:27 PM


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TheCheshireKhajiit
post Oct 21 2016, 03:09 AM
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As much as Khajiit loves the Sith, they are always getting their asses kicked.


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Callidus Thorn
post Oct 21 2016, 07:26 AM
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They do have their moments though, even if they end up being chronically overused to set the scale of a story only to lose once it actually gets going. But at least they do better than Dark Jedi.


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Dark Reaper
post Oct 21 2016, 08:35 PM
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Both Micro Machines Death Star Playsets:

IPB Image


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Dark Reaper
post Nov 28 2016, 03:16 PM
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So far I'm looking forward to Rouge One, from all the trailers I've seen it looks like a kick ass film and we get introduced to two new ships, the Tie Striker, U-Wing and a possible Imperial X-Wing Prototype so here's my take.
The Tie Striker from what me and Khajiit could dig up its mostly a planetary patrol and cargo (possibly a troop transport as well) and therefore probably not suited for heavy space combat like the regular tie fighters or interceptors but they could be used if needed as a last ditch effort.

Next is the U-Wing and from what I gather much like the Striker it's mostly a sub-orbital troop transport and close support craft (think A-10 warthog if the A-10 could carry troops). The U-Wing could operate in space but I don't think its meant for heavy space combat like the X-Wing, Y-Wing, A-Wing and B-Wing are.

Lastly from what I think is an Imperial prototype X-wing seen here and the Dan-o Channel on YouTube kinda agrees with me on, this might be the Imperial's only X-wing and I say that cause from what I've gathered from SW lore the X-Wing was intended for the Galactic Empire but the Incom Corporation being sympathetic to the Rebels gave them some X-Wings but nothing in lore says that the Empire did at least get one and since this Rogue One X-wing has Imperial Colors that's why I think it's the Empire's only X-wing...but that's just a theory---A STAR WARS THEORY! Thanks for watching happy.gif.

This post has been edited by Dark Reaper: Nov 28 2016, 03:16 PM


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TheCheshireKhajiit
post Nov 28 2016, 08:12 PM
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Khajiit is confused about the state of the canon in the Star Wars franchise now that Disney has bought it. From what he understands, the only thing official is the films and TV shows (The Clone Wars and Rebels), but that leaves a lot up in the air. This one thinks it's safe to say all of the stuff in the expanded universe that happened after RotJ is now irrelevant. What about the stuff that happened before the events of Episode 1? They canonized Darth Bane in the Clone Wars TV series so does that also mean by extension that Revan and all of the events surrounding him are also canon, since it was from one of Revan's holocrons that Darth Bane learned of the "Rule of Two"? So many questions.

This post has been edited by TheCheshireKhajiit: Nov 28 2016, 08:27 PM


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