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> Game of Thrones, *** Spoilers *** (and discussion)
mALX
post Aug 11 2017, 12:21 AM
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QUOTE(Decrepit @ Aug 10 2017, 06:49 PM) *

QUOTE(mALX @ Aug 10 2017, 05:08 PM) *

QUOTE(Decrepit @ Aug 10 2017, 03:53 PM) *

Came across a most interesting longish YouTube video on why GoT Season 5 Dorne was decidedly sub par. This same channel has a number of other worthwhile discussions.

On a much smaller scale, Scholagladiatoria reviews the recent Arya - Brienne practice duel.



The first vid you linked (which is a two-parter) has some interesting info, but the guy making the vid is so slow at presenting it that it becomes irritating to listen to. Why he had to show us his outlines for the vid planning first and THEN re-go over them when he presented the quotes from the interviews??? (Why not just show the quote from the interviews and address it in one instance?) He was way too wordy and repetitive; which is too bad because the info he had is something I would like to hear; but probably hear by someone who can cut through all the drama and go right to the meat of the topic.

The second vid was excellent; extremely informative (but concise!!!) Nice one, very interesting!

I had intended to mention that the first video was long-winded and that the gist of it could be gleaned within its first several minutes. Me being me, it totally slipped my mind.

Interesting linked video. I've long known some sort of early ASOIAF synopsis existed, but never before encountered it.


Lol, I think that first guy liked to compartmentalize way too much; but if he had just kept all that to himself and used it as a silent guide for his own purposes it would have worked perfectly; because the meat of what he was showing was well worth learning. I have always felt like D&D's obsessive love of cameos was behind some of the worst side ventures the story took (that did nothing to further the story). They should never have been left unchecked, they need editing.

Oh, on that vid I linked - that was the first time I was able to hear what was in that synopsis too; and I was really surprised how much it strayed from the version the TV has. Makes me wonder if the books had that Arya love triangle in them, urk. (and since Sansa was hinting about Arya and Jon in this last episode, makes me wonder if D & D are going to try and insinuate it into the TV version now, urgh, yuk!).






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mALX
post Sep 18 2017, 07:10 AM
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Hmmmm!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0i3iz43NU8



Mmmmmmm!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw50mRyJ1IQ






This post has been edited by mALX: Sep 18 2017, 07:54 AM


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Decrepit
post Sep 18 2017, 01:33 PM
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While watching mALX linked videos I noticed a GoT / ASOIAF recommendation with the intriguing title "Why Game of Thrones Jumped the Shark (and why George R.R. Martin will never finish his series)". Fascinating food for thought, much of which I agree with at least in part.

This post has been edited by Decrepit: Sep 18 2017, 01:36 PM


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mALX
post Sep 18 2017, 07:47 PM
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QUOTE(Decrepit @ Sep 18 2017, 08:33 AM) *

While watching mALX linked videos I noticed a GoT / ASOIAF recommendation with the intriguing title "Why Game of Thrones Jumped the Shark (and why George R.R. Martin will never finish his series)". Fascinating food for thought, much of which I agree with at least in part.


I most def agree with everything he said regarding season 7 and what (D & D) are projecting as their ending for the series in the upcoming season 8. And I also have wondered if GRRM was hoping he would die before having to complete the books because then he would have gone out on a high note and as tragically as his characters in the story = with unfinished storylines.

But I also think that IF GRRM had written it, season 7 would not have been the most poorly written piece of "telling" crap ever produced out of Hollywood or ended up being the total shark jump that it was. I blame D & D for their cramming; their clumsy arrow pointing in their attempts at foreshadowing; at their "telling" instead of "showing" - at their total removal of any form of personality or good dialogue from any of the characters so they ended up just delivering trite lines and several that sounded like he was trying to make them catch-phrases = like how many times are we going to hear "I'll impregnate the bitch?" I was reminded of those cheesy sitcom shows where the characters look into the camera and say the same line every week to get the live audience's to cheer ("What you talkin' 'bout, Willis?").


All the characters in season 7 repeated lines from their past as if D & D were trying to say, "remember this?" = Yeah, we do remember when it was said originally; back when the story was being well written and well produced. By throwing the same line of dialogue in now, it is a cheesy attempt to wrap us into the same feelings we had about the story/character the first time those lines were said = and it is not working, because the build up of complete story is not behind the lines NOW, when they are just thrown out carelessly and for no reason but an attempt to manipulate the audience. I don't think D & D have any idea how bad they really are.

Back to the vid - I don't totally agree with him that GRRM could not have written a successful conclusion IF he had finished the books before his fame took off; but after this huge break from writing, I don't think he could achieve as quality an ending ever again. Regardless that he says he wouldn't be influenced by public opinion, I do think he would be. After all, he would want his success to continue; and fans are fickle. But I doubt very much he would ever pander to the fans to the extent D & D have so obviously done. And at least it would still be well written; though maybe not to the quality of the early chapters when he was so inspired.

Season 7 turned me off so badly that I am pretty sure my GoT addiction has been officially cured. Not sure if even GRRM could pull his story back from the damage D & D did to it. He really should have published those last two books before season 7; his audience may have lost all interest before he gets them out now.



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Decrepit
post Sep 18 2017, 10:00 PM
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QUOTE(mALX @ Sep 18 2017, 01:47 PM) *

QUOTE(Decrepit @ Sep 18 2017, 08:33 AM) *

While watching mALX linked videos I noticed a GoT / ASOIAF recommendation with the intriguing title "Why Game of Thrones Jumped the Shark (and why George R.R. Martin will never finish his series)". Fascinating food for thought, much of which I agree with at least in part.


I most def agree with everything he said regarding season 7 and what (D & D) are projecting as their ending for the series in the upcoming season 8. And I also have wondered if GRRM was hoping he would die before having to complete the books because then he would have gone out on a high note and as tragically as his characters in the story = with unfinished storylines.

But I also think that IF GRRM had written it, season 7 would not have been the most poorly written piece of "telling" crap ever produced out of Hollywood or ended up being the total shark jump that it was. I blame D & D for their cramming; their clumsy arrow pointing in their attempts at foreshadowing; at their "telling" instead of "showing" - at their total removal of any form of personality or good dialogue from any of the characters so they ended up just delivering trite lines and several that sounded like he was trying to make them catch-phrases = like how many times are we going to hear "I'll impregnate the bitch?" I was reminded of those cheesy sitcom shows where the characters look into the camera and say the same line every week to get the live audience's to cheer ("What you talkin' 'bout, Willis?").


All the characters in season 7 repeated lines from their past as if D & D were trying to say, "remember this?" = Yeah, we do remember when it was said originally; back when the story was being well written and well produced. By throwing the same line of dialogue in now, it is a cheesy attempt to wrap us into the same feelings we had about the story/character the first time those lines were said = and it is not working, because the build up of complete story is not behind the lines NOW, when they are just thrown out carelessly and for no reason but an attempt to manipulate the audience. I don't think D & D have any idea how bad they really are.

Back to the vid - I don't totally agree with him that GRRM could not have written a successful conclusion IF he had finished the books before his fame took off; but after this huge break from writing, I don't think he could achieve as quality an ending ever again. Regardless that he says he wouldn't be influenced by public opinion, I do think he would be. After all, he would want his success to continue; and fans are fickle. But I doubt very much he would ever pander to the fans to the extent D & D have so obviously done. And at least it would still be well written; though maybe not to the quality of the early chapters when he was so inspired.

Season 7 turned me off so badly that I am pretty sure my GoT addiction has been officially cured. Not sure if even GRRM could pull his story back from the damage D & D did to it. He really should have published those last two books before season 7; his audience may have lost all interest before he gets them out now.

Me, I've not seen any season seven episodes in full. Watching excerpts from a few of them at YouTube (as after-view reviews) was enough to convince me that the show has gone decidedly downhill, even though the first several such videos were either somewhat positive or at least not overly negative. As to Martin finishing the books, I sometimes wonder if, at this stage, he's deliberately holding off until GOT is dead and buried, so that his book sales have no competition. That, and maybe he figures people will, once some time has passed, want to know how the story really resolves itself.


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mALX
post Sep 18 2017, 10:57 PM
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QUOTE(Decrepit @ Sep 18 2017, 05:00 PM) *

QUOTE(mALX @ Sep 18 2017, 01:47 PM) *

QUOTE(Decrepit @ Sep 18 2017, 08:33 AM) *

While watching mALX linked videos I noticed a GoT / ASOIAF recommendation with the intriguing title "Why Game of Thrones Jumped the Shark (and why George R.R. Martin will never finish his series)". Fascinating food for thought, much of which I agree with at least in part.


I most def agree with everything he said regarding season 7 and what (D & D) are projecting as their ending for the series in the upcoming season 8. And I also have wondered if GRRM was hoping he would die before having to complete the books because then he would have gone out on a high note and as tragically as his characters in the story = with unfinished storylines.

But I also think that IF GRRM had written it, season 7 would not have been the most poorly written piece of "telling" crap ever produced out of Hollywood or ended up being the total shark jump that it was. I blame D & D for their cramming; their clumsy arrow pointing in their attempts at foreshadowing; at their "telling" instead of "showing" - at their total removal of any form of personality or good dialogue from any of the characters so they ended up just delivering trite lines and several that sounded like he was trying to make them catch-phrases = like how many times are we going to hear "I'll impregnate the bitch?" I was reminded of those cheesy sitcom shows where the characters look into the camera and say the same line every week to get the live audience's to cheer ("What you talkin' 'bout, Willis?").


All the characters in season 7 repeated lines from their past as if D & D were trying to say, "remember this?" = Yeah, we do remember when it was said originally; back when the story was being well written and well produced. By throwing the same line of dialogue in now, it is a cheesy attempt to wrap us into the same feelings we had about the story/character the first time those lines were said = and it is not working, because the build up of complete story is not behind the lines NOW, when they are just thrown out carelessly and for no reason but an attempt to manipulate the audience. I don't think D & D have any idea how bad they really are.

Back to the vid - I don't totally agree with him that GRRM could not have written a successful conclusion IF he had finished the books before his fame took off; but after this huge break from writing, I don't think he could achieve as quality an ending ever again. Regardless that he says he wouldn't be influenced by public opinion, I do think he would be. After all, he would want his success to continue; and fans are fickle. But I doubt very much he would ever pander to the fans to the extent D & D have so obviously done. And at least it would still be well written; though maybe not to the quality of the early chapters when he was so inspired.

Season 7 turned me off so badly that I am pretty sure my GoT addiction has been officially cured. Not sure if even GRRM could pull his story back from the damage D & D did to it. He really should have published those last two books before season 7; his audience may have lost all interest before he gets them out now.

Me, I've not seen any season seven episodes in full. Watching excerpts from a few of them at YouTube (as after-view reviews) was enough to convince me that the show has gone decidedly downhill, even though the first several such videos were either somewhat positive or at least not overly negative. As to Martin finishing the books, I sometimes wonder if, at this stage, he's deliberately holding off until GOT is dead and buried, so that his book sales have no competition. That, and maybe he figures people will, once some time has passed, want to know how the story really resolves itself.


That could be the reason he is holding off now; but wouldn't explain why he held off at the time he first stopped writing the rest of the story. He says "writer's block," but it hit right at the same time his fame blew wide open and he certainly never had any problem writing all those other shows he did in the aftermath. I think his inspiration for this story waned because he found the new (and much more productive/lucrative) venue for his talents that pushed him beyond any place that future books could ever achieve.

But all that aside = he should never have allowed D & D to ruin his efforts. He would have been much better off having the series suddenly dumped right at the end of the season that the books ended and have the world clambering for more (and like that vid said = imagining their own endings) than to have it get so bad that people are turning from it in disgust. D & D couldn't have done worse if they had set out to deliberately sabotage GRRM with season 7.

There was a noticeable decline in the quality of the show about the time they reached the end of the books - especially evident in the character development and dialogue of Tyrion. All his hugely intelligent and humorous dialogue suddenly sank down into belching and slurred speech. He went from the most charismatic character in the show to just being a sidekick to whomever he was with at the time.

Tyrion wasn't the only blatant change in the last few seasons since the books ended. The gray characters GRRM was famous for suddenly became all black and white with no depth and completely lacking emotionally evocative roles to inspire the audience to care about them.

The beginning seasons were richly subtle; there was never any overt arrows to point to the plot twists so they really came as a surprise when they happened (like the Red Wedding!!!).

In contrast; D & D are as subtle as a train wreck; going way too far one direction to try and make it a "surprise" when the story turns the other way. Example: the ridiculously unbelievable hatred they built up between Sansa and Arya just so they could "suddenly" surprise us when they work together to turn on Littlefinger. As soon as they took the sisters out of character and out of any believable sisterly relationship premise, it was so obvious they were going to do something that it was eye-rolling. They may as well have hung a giant red arrow with the words, "Watch This!!!" written on it.

D & D don't trust the audience to be intelligent enough to detect any subtle plot turns; so they feel they have to make blatant reversals to get the shock value. That is where GRRM excelled - he never doubted his audience could follow what was going on, so kept everything so natural that we were stunned when the plot turned suddenly. And he knew better than to completely flip characters around to the point where they are no longer recognizable as themselves.

Another flaw that really ate up film time without furthering any story lines was D & D's obsession with cameos of stars they personally want to showcase (that have nothing to do with the major plot at all) The Dorne storyline was a baby that GRRM planned to murder in the films because there was no room for it and it wasn't part of the major storyline. D & D wanted to showcase a star THEY loved, so drew out that whole Dorne storyline just to give her a starring role.

I won't get into all the belief-suspending Ninja Arya stuff; but I def agree with the vid about the Mary-Sue/Gary-Sue feel of the story since GRRM's influence waned.

I can say this: I have never been so in love with a series in the beginning seasons of the show; and have never been so severely disappointed in a show as I was in season 7. And once I get this turned off, I'm usually gone. I will probably force myself to watch season 8; but not looking forward to it with eager anticipation like I had been all the other seasons.



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mALX
post Sep 22 2017, 07:32 AM
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My son just got his Birthday present (that I'm pretty sure he ordered himself) = the coin Arya Stark used for passage to Bravos:

IPB Image


(the iron coin of the faceless man that you hand people and say, "Valar Morghulis" to gain any help you need).








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TheCheshireKhajiit
post Sep 22 2017, 05:01 PM
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QUOTE(mALX @ Sep 22 2017, 01:32 AM) *

My son just got his Birthday present (that I'm pretty sure he ordered himself) = the coin Arya Stark used for passage to Bravos:

IPB Image


(the iron coin of the faceless man that you hand people and say, "Valar Morghulis" to gain any help you need).

That's cool!


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mALX
post Sep 22 2017, 06:18 PM
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QUOTE(TheCheshireKhajiit @ Sep 22 2017, 12:01 PM) *

That's cool!


Yeah, it is ... but ... what is he going to do with that? laugh.gif I don't think that is a collectible that will gain much value over time, lol.





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TheCheshireKhajiit
post Sep 22 2017, 07:32 PM
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QUOTE(mALX @ Sep 22 2017, 12:18 PM) *

QUOTE(TheCheshireKhajiit @ Sep 22 2017, 12:01 PM) *

That's cool!


Yeah, it is ... but ... what is he going to do with that? laugh.gif I don't think that is a collectible that will gain much value over time, lol.

Well obviously he's to go and join a death cult ohmy.gif


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mALX
post Sep 22 2017, 07:36 PM
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QUOTE(TheCheshireKhajiit @ Sep 22 2017, 02:32 PM) *

QUOTE(mALX @ Sep 22 2017, 12:18 PM) *

QUOTE(TheCheshireKhajiit @ Sep 22 2017, 12:01 PM) *

That's cool!


Yeah, it is ... but ... what is he going to do with that? laugh.gif I don't think that is a collectible that will gain much value over time, lol.

Well obviously he's to go and join a death cult ohmy.gif



Urgh; he was watching reruns of Dexter the other day ... laugh.gif





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mALX
post Oct 2 2017, 07:04 AM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJyVIqMX6Q8






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mALX
post Feb 7 2019, 06:52 PM
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Necromancy!!!!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fhOItB0zUM












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post Feb 7 2019, 06:58 PM
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You make a Game of Thrones thread, don't be surprised to see this coming he he he biggrin.gif .


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TheCheshireKhajiit
post Apr 17 2019, 03:48 AM
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Anyone watch the final season premiere?


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mALX
post Apr 17 2019, 04:19 PM
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QUOTE(TheCheshireKhajiit @ Apr 16 2019, 10:48 PM) *

Anyone watch the final season premiere?



ME!!! Can we discuss spoilers yet? Because I'm dying to know 2 things:


1.




and 2.






There were a few other places I loved, but I was kind of disappointed that D & D felt the need to info dump in catching the audience up on all the players in the show, I mean = we aren't dumb; we remember the cast and storyline! laugh.gif







This post has been edited by mALX: Apr 17 2019, 04:21 PM


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TheCheshireKhajiit
post Apr 17 2019, 06:33 PM
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QUOTE(mALX @ Apr 17 2019, 10:19 AM) *

QUOTE(TheCheshireKhajiit @ Apr 16 2019, 10:48 PM) *

Anyone watch the final season premiere?



ME!!! Can we discuss spoilers yet? Because I'm dying to know 2 things:


1.




and 2.






There were a few other places I loved, but I was kind of disappointed that D & D felt the need to info dump in catching the audience up on all the players in the show, I mean = we aren't dumb; we remember the cast and storyline! laugh.gif

1.

2.

Khajiit liked !!!

This post has been edited by TheCheshireKhajiit: Apr 17 2019, 06:38 PM


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mALX
post Apr 17 2019, 08:07 PM
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QUOTE(TheCheshireKhajiit @ Apr 17 2019, 01:33 PM) *

QUOTE(mALX @ Apr 17 2019, 10:19 AM) *

QUOTE(TheCheshireKhajiit @ Apr 16 2019, 10:48 PM) *

Anyone watch the final season premiere?



ME!!! Can we discuss spoilers yet? Because I'm dying to know 2 things:


1.




and 2.






There were a few other places I loved, but I was kind of disappointed that D & D felt the need to info dump in catching the audience up on all the players in the show, I mean = we aren't dumb; we remember the cast and storyline! laugh.gif

1.

2.

Khajiit liked !!!


Right? And that Umber kid left Winterfell in one scene and was a dead Wight 3 scenes later; so they are less than a day away.

But I really hope they wait to kill Jaime till he has helped them fight, since he has a Valerian Steel sword, lol.

By the way, where did Arya get the Valerian Steel sword she is having turned into a lance to kill the ice dragon with? Was that Jon Snow's? (because it couldn't have been Jaime's yet; he didn't arrive till after that scene). I know Sam had one, Jon Snow had one, and Jaime had one. (and if I'm not mistaken, Arya's Needle is Valerian Steel).

By the way, did you get to see any of the Extras from this season? If so, make SURE you see "The Crypts of Winterfell," and friggin' freeze the film on the last scene in that vid! It is only a couple minutes long. I stopped the film 3 times at the end and looked VERY closely. It is a HUGE foreshadowing!!!!


(and bone-chilling!!!)








This post has been edited by mALX: Apr 17 2019, 11:35 PM


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TheCheshireKhajiit
post Apr 17 2019, 09:03 PM
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QUOTE(mALX @ Apr 17 2019, 02:07 PM) *

By the way, where did Aria get the Valerian Steel sword she is having turned into a lance to kill the ice dragon with? Was that Jon Snow's? (because it couldn't have been Jaime's yet; he didn't arrive till after that scene). I know Sam had one, Jon Snow had one, and Jaime had one. (and if I'm not mistaken, Aria's Needle is Valerian Steel).

Arya’s Needle is referred to in both the books and show as “castle forged steel”, that is, steel forged in the smithy of a smith under the direct employ of a major lord. Khajiit takes this to mean that it’s superior to most commercial products, but not as good as Valyrian. Khajiit believes that the weapon you are referring to is the Valyrian steel dagger that was used to try and kill Bran waay back in season 1 that somehow came into Arya’s possession (this one doesn’t remember how that came to be).

This post has been edited by TheCheshireKhajiit: Apr 17 2019, 09:04 PM


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mALX
post Apr 17 2019, 09:21 PM
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QUOTE(TheCheshireKhajiit @ Apr 17 2019, 04:03 PM) *

QUOTE(mALX @ Apr 17 2019, 02:07 PM) *

By the way, where did Arya get the Valerian Steel sword she is having turned into a lance to kill the ice dragon with? Was that Jon Snow's? (because it couldn't have been Jaime's yet; he didn't arrive till after that scene). I know Sam had one, Jon Snow had one, and Jaime had one. (and if I'm not mistaken, Arya's Needle is Valerian Steel).

Arya’s Needle is referred to in both the books and show as “castle forged steel”, that is, steel forged in the smithy of a smith under the direct employ of a major lord. Khajiit takes this to mean that it’s superior to most commercial products, but not as good as Valyrian. Khajiit believes that the weapon you are referring to is the Valyrian steel dagger that was used to try and kill Bran waay back in season 1 that somehow came into Arya’s possession (this one doesn’t remember how that came to be).



I'll have to watch season one again to see when Jon made Needle for her whether she looked at it and said it was Valerian Steel. I thought she did. But I know it isn't Needle she is having melted down to make the lance = it was a greatsword, like Jon Snow carries.








This post has been edited by mALX: Apr 17 2019, 11:33 PM


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