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> Kotor, The Knights of the Old Repulic 1 & 2 topic
SubRosa
post Nov 22 2015, 03:15 AM
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Since it stirred up a few posts worth of talk in the What Are You Playing topic, I thought I would make the Kotor games a thread of their own.

I'll start with some handy tips for playing them on a modern computer. First off getting them to install on a 64 bit OS is probably not likely. But Gog.com has them for $10 each, and their installs will work on Windows 7 (I haven't tried them on my Win 8 tablet, and I don't have Win 10, but I am sure they work on those OSes as well). There are probably some modder-built installers floating around the internets if you still have the old cds as well.

In any case, neither game can do 1920 x 1080 resolution out of the box. But you can get it on each.


The only way I know for Kotor 1 is to use Flawless Widescreen. You have to start it first, select the Kotor profile, and leave it running. Then start Kotor 1 itself and go to the graphics options to set the resolution there to anything different from what you find it. 1920 x 1080 won't be there the first time you try. But change the resolution to something anyway. Flawless Widescreen is a memory hack, that detects the change in resolutions and then tries to add in the higher resolutions. Exit the game, restart it, and 1920 x 1080 might be there the second time. If not, go for a third time, etc... Sometimes it comes up the second time. Sometimes even after six or seven times it does not. If I go that long I turn off Flawless Widescreen and open it again. Usually then the next time you start Kotor you have the higher resolutions. Sadly, you have to do this every time you play the game.


Kotor 2 has a slightly more complicated fix, but at least you only have to do it once, and then you will always have the high resolution.

Start the game and set it to the highest resolution available, then exit it.

Run the Universal Widescreen Patcher. Select the Kotor2 profile, tell it where the game is on the computer, and put in the resolution you want (1920 x 1080).

Go to your Kotor 2 folder and open swkotor2.ini file. Find the lines for Height and Width and change them to 1080 and 1920 respectively.

Copy the Widescreen UI Fix to the Kotor2\Override folder.

Done!


Steam has the revamped version of Kotor 2 done by Aspyr. It has the advantage of high resolutions built in without need of all the work above. But other than that it does not really add anything I personally care about. It is all Steam achievements, Steam cloud saves, controller support, and so on. The native 5k support would be handy for folks like ghastley that use multiple monitors though. But I think that can be done as with a hack (not positive though). I am glad I did not buy it this way, as I got everything I wanted from the Gog version, without the added joy of DRM.



On to mods.
Kotor 1 & 2
Kotor Tool - A modding tool that allows you to extract and mod the game's files.

Kotor Savegame Editor - A savegame editor that allows you to modify all of your stats, and those of your companions. It works on both games. One really cool thing about it is that it allows you to edit your inventory, and modded items will show up in the editor. So you don't need to use the command console to add them within the game.


Kotor 1
Lightsaber Choices - When you construct your lightsaber on Dantoine, this mod gives you more options in the choice of your color crystal, what type of saber (standard, short, or double), and lets you create a second one too if you want to dual wield.

90SK's K1 Robes - changes the look of the jedi robes, based on the Bastila robes. A big improvement over the vanilla look.

Deadly Stream has a huge amount of Kotor mods. Of course there is a Kotor 1 Nexus site, and Gamewatcher has a few Kotor 1 mods


Kotor 2
First and foremost is the Sith Lords Restored Content Mod, which puts a ton of stuff back into that game that never got used in the release version. I am using it now for the first time, but since I have not gotten far, I cannot say just how much it really changes. It sounds like it adds an awful lot though.

Again Deadly Stream has a bunch of Kotor 2 mods. The Nexus has a Kotor 2 site and Gamewatcher has a Kotor 2 mod site as well.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Nov 29 2015, 10:00 PM


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mALX
post Nov 22 2015, 05:08 AM
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This is Awesome! Your advice in these things is so appreciated! Thank you so much!





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Callidus Thorn
post Nov 22 2015, 01:03 PM
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I've been meaning to try and install those games on my laptop. I've got a thread bookmarked from a while back with details on how to get the games running on windows vista/7, since I've got the old cd versions.

Then again, I might just treat myself after my birthday and get them off of Gog, just to avoid the hassle. That said, I'm not sure that my laptop will run it too well, since I'm stuck with integrated graphics sad.gif


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Acadian
post Nov 22 2015, 01:41 PM
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It can certainly take a lot to get old games running well on current machines. And for any interested in this game, your detailed help is a wonderful resource! Thanks for sharing your experience so that anyone trying the same path has an easier time of it. smile.gif


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Callidus Thorn
post Nov 22 2015, 04:47 PM
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QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Nov 22 2015, 08:29 AM) *

QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Nov 21 2015, 04:32 PM) *

In all honesty I found KotOR slightly disappointing. Then again I'd played KotOR 2 first, so there were some things that just weren't as smooth, even though the story was better. In both games I gravitated towards the Jedi Sentinel. Stealth and the Force(and, in my case, a pair of pistols and a dual-bladed lightsaber biggrin.gif )? Yes please! Though I will admit that palying as a Consular could be amusing, if only for the sheer overload of Force powers you can bring to bear.

I can't remember who I used most, I think it might have been Bastila and Canderous, but I've always had a soft spot for Madalorians. I also found HK-47 to be amusing, in both games.

I did once try a dark side run, but that ended up with me trying to force my way through the end game with Canderous and HK-47 backing me up. Needless to say, it did not go well.

And I think the Ebon Hawk might well be my favourite ship in the Star Wars universe, mostly because of its looks. And it's just so much better than the Millenium Falcon was. laugh.gif

Kotor 2 could have been an absolute masterpiece if Obsidian would have been given the time they needed to properly complete the game. As it is it is a flawed swing for the fences that still works on some admirably subtle levels. In that way it seems a lot like the game equivalent of a Kubrick film. Kreia is, without question, my favorite character in the entire Star Wars universe, and Kelly Hu's voice for Visas Marr is like being submerged in a pool of warm honey…

Mmmmmmmmm, honey.


Yeah, it's a shame that Obsidian weren't given all the time that they needed, but, since it's Obsidian, it would still have been buggy laugh.gif Though I do think that the Jedi count in the game was a little on the high side.

I don't know that I'd call Kreia my favourite character from the Star Wars universe, but she's certainly up there. And I loved all those little hints she dropped about Revan and what happened to him. And it was nice to see a force user who didn't push for a choice between light or dark, but somewhere in between.

Iirc, while Visas had a great voice, I don't think I ever used her much. I tended to play as a Sentinel, so I didn't really need another on the team, and I don't think she was set up particularly well for it anyway. I do remember that I always went through all the conversations possible with her biggrin.gif


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SubRosa
post Nov 22 2015, 09:41 PM
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Kreia just annoys me to no end. I am only just getting started on Kotor 2, but as I recall she berates you ceaselessly about whatever choices you make, dark or light. If you give a starving person a fish to eat she excoriates you for rewarding their helplessness and preventing them from learning to stand on their own two feet. If you just kill them and take all their credits she chastises you for tyrannizing the weak. But as I recall, the game never gives you the option of taking a neutral path, and teaching the person to fish, so they can feed themselves for the rest of their lives. If the game actually allowed you to take a middle path she would be a useful character. But as I recall, the game still forces you into either the stereotypical good or evil routes, with no other options. That made Kreia just a pain the rear whom I never want to waste my time talking to.

Or I might honestly be mis-remembering. It has been a very long time since I played Kotor 2. To the point where I am not entirely sure what things are from the mods I am now using, and what was part of the vanilla game. If the game really does offer a neutral path, then I am sure I will warm up to Kreia this time around.

Visas always made my heart go pitter-patter. She was always in my party whenever I had the chance. I was always trying to peek up into that hood of hers to see if she really had eyes or not! laugh.gif Multiple Jedi are a pain the rear to micro-manage. There are just too many powers, and the wear off too quickly. It takes forever to buff up before going through a door, especially when you find there is nothing on the other side.

And Destri, I did go to that Dark Side! Her name was Jaelyn. It was over between us a long time ago, but I honestly still dream about her to this day. Come to think of it, she is the one who introduced me to the Kotor games, and loaned me my first copies to try them out. smile.gif The dark-side consular was her favorite class, for just the reasons you mentioned. There was always plenty of lightning in her games!



Here are some essential mods:

Kotor 1
Lightsaber Choices - When you construct your lightsaber on Dantoine, this mod gives you more options in the choice of your color crystal, what type of saber (standard, short, or double), and lets you create a second one too if you want to dual wield.

90SK's K1 Robes - changes the look of the jedi robes, based on the Bastila robes. A big improvement over the vanilla look.



Kotor 1 & 2
Kotor Tool - A savegame editor that allows you to modify all of your stats, and those of your companions.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Nov 23 2015, 04:40 AM


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Callidus Thorn
post Nov 22 2015, 10:16 PM
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Iirc there are some choices you can make that Kreia approves of, and from what I remember the dark side options she berates you for are the more gratuitous ones(I seem to recall she had something to say when one of my Exiles made some guy jump to his death on Nar Shaddaa).

But ultimately, trying to remain grey is a bad move. Without a certain number of light or dark side points you don't get the prestige classes. Visas' appearance is similarly triggered, so it's really not worth trying unless you can find some mods to alter things.

And I don't think I really bothered micro-managing my Jedi. I think I mainly brute-forced my way through the game, because a Sentinel/Watchman with a pair of heavily modified Mandalorian Rippers and an amped up dual-bladed lightsaber can cause colossal levels of carnage. Throw in a few offensive powers, a Jedi Guardian, and I think I used Kreia a lot too, and it's insane.


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Destri Melarg
post Nov 24 2015, 01:09 AM
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QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Nov 22 2015, 01:16 PM) *

Iirc there are some choices you can make that Kreia approves of, and from what I remember the dark side options she berates you for are the more gratuitous ones(I seem to recall she had something to say when one of my Exiles made some guy jump to his death on Nar Shaddaa).

Yeah I had no problem with Kreia’s constant nitpicking. I just chalked it up to a flaw in her character. laugh.gif After all, she does risk her own life to save yours at the start of the game. And, selfish motivations or not, she does tend to care for you and your plight far more than the ineffectual fools on the Jedi Counsel who are perfectly content to throw you to the wolves while they continue to hide. I know that she ultimately has her own agenda, but even at the end she tells you how much she cares about you.

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 22 2015, 12:41 PM) *

And Destri, I did go to that Dark Side! Her name was Jaelyn. It was over between us a long time ago, but I honestly still dream about her to this day. Come to think of it, she is the one who introduced me to the Kotor games, and loaned me my first copies to try them out. smile.gif The dark-side consular was her favorite class, for just the reasons you mentioned. There was always plenty of lightning in her games!



Here are some essential mods:

Kotor 1
Lightsaber Choices - When you construct your lightsaber on Dantoine, this mod gives you more options in the choice of your color crystal, what type of saber (standard, short, or double), and lets you create a second one too if you want to dual wield.

90SK's K1 Robes - changes the look of the jedi robes, based on the Bastila robes. A big improvement over the vanilla look.

Kotor 1 & 2
Kotor Tool - A savegame editor that allows you to modify all of your stats, and those of your companions.

Jaelyn sounds hot! Plus she introduced you to Kotor! hubbahubba.gif

Thanks for the mods list. I'll definitely check out the robes if/when I buy the game. Even though they aren't the kind of Jedi robes I would prefer, they offer more options than vanilla Kotor gives us. I actually like the standard blue, green, yellow lightsaber schemes and what those colors represent (wait, it is yellow for a Sentinel right?).

I also agree that it is a bit tedious micro-manging jedi, but I think that has more to do with the turn-based combat system than anything else. What Star Wars in general (and the Kotor franchise in particular) needs is a game with a combat system that is more real time. Something along the lines of what the Witcher series does would be fantastic. I want to be able to block and parry with my lightsaber before launching an enemy thirty feet into a wall with my force powers. I want to be able to block incoming blaster fire by holding down the block button... and I want the degree to which I am successful to be based on my skill with the blade and my knowledge of the force. I want to be able to manipulate objects of varying sizes with telekinetic force powers. I want the long flowing robes with a hood that I can toggle up or down.

And, most importantly, I want to be able to play as something more than just a human!

(Oh, and before anyone says it, I despise MMO’s in general and SWTOR in particular.)




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SubRosa
post Nov 24 2015, 02:25 AM
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Jaelyn is hot! biggrin.gif

I forget what class yellow was for. It might be sentinel. I always preferred purple, so that is what I have usually gone for thanks to that mod. I would love a black saber though, like Pre-Viz had in The Clone Wars.

What I would like to see is a little more originality with the Force Powers. Not just in a future game, but in the Star Wars universe as a whole. As I said in a different topic, we never see a Jedi using the Force to calm the savage beasts like Gundarks, or those big monster things in the arena in Attack Of The Clones. Why can't there be an Animal Whisperer Force Power? Or someone who can read the Force energy in another and thereby predict everything they do before they do it? Or siphon that Force energy for themselves? Or control it (and use it to make them chop their own head off with their lightsaber). Or use the Force to make your body harder than diamond, and immune from lightsabers. Or to regenerate any wound. With something like the Force, the options should be as wide open as mutant powers are comics.

I think Jedi and Sith would be a lot more interesting if part of gaining mastery meant moving beyond the stock techniques like deflecting blaster bolts and telekinesis, and developing a unique ability like one of those above. Something really strong that defines how they use the force, and is a reflection of who they are as a person. You would still have the runt Jedi Knights and Sith Assassins, but the Obi-Wans, Yoda's, Mace's, etc... would all be one of the kind.

I don't have any interest in MMOs either. I was so disappointed when The Old Republic came out. I would have vastly preferred a third Kotor game. Or another Jedi Academy game. Or even a new X-Wing game.

And yes, I want to play as a Twi'lek! Or an Iridonian, or a Tortugan! Humans are so boring. I already have to play one IRL. wink.gif

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Nov 24 2015, 02:30 AM


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Destri Melarg
post Nov 24 2015, 03:09 AM
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You actually do get both Affect Mind and Beast Trick as universal powers (meaning accessible to both light & dark) in Kotor 2. I actually think thay did that part of the game extremely well. Here’s a Link that discusses all the force powers.

I’d like to see a future game move beyond the limiting confines of Jedi vs. Sith. Or, more precisely, i’d like to see Sith who aren’t all ‘twirl the mustache’ evil (or, at the very least, let’s see a bit more subtlety in the evil... like the machinations of Palpatine) and Jedi who aren’t all saccharine do-gooders (give us the option to be a Qui-Gon).

Good and evil in videosgames needs a complete overhaul in general. These games aren’t made for a pre-teen audience anymore, so why do we continue to have such an anachronistic morality system?


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Callidus Thorn
post Nov 24 2015, 10:14 AM
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QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 24 2015, 01:25 AM) *

I forget what class yellow was for. It might be sentinel. I always preferred purple, so that is what I have usually gone for thanks to that mod.


Iirc:

Yellow is for Sentinels
Blue is for Guardians
Green is for Consulars

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 24 2015, 01:25 AM) *

What I would like to see is a little more originality with the Force Powers. Not just in a future game, but in the Star Wars universe as a whole. As I said in a different topic, we never see a Jedi using the Force to calm the savage beasts like Gundarks, or those big monster things in the arena in Attack Of The Clones. Why can't there be an Animal Whisperer Force Power? Or someone who can read the Force energy in another and thereby predict everything they do before they do it? Or siphon that Force energy for themselves? Or control it (and use it to make them chop their own head off with their lightsaber). Or use the Force to make your body harder than diamond, and immune from lightsabers. Or to regenerate any wound. With something like the Force, the options should be as wide open as mutant powers are comics.

I think Jedi and Sith would be a lot more interesting if part of gaining mastery meant moving beyond the stock techniques like deflecting blaster bolts and telekinesis, and developing a unique ability like one of those above. Something really strong that defines how they use the force, and is a reflection of who they are as a person. You would still have the runt Jedi Knights and Sith Assassins, but the Obi-Wans, Yoda's, Mace's, etc... would all be one of the kind.


I have to disagree with the underlined. By the time we get around to people like Obi-Wan Kenobi, even by the time we get around to Revan and the Old Republic, the Force has been used by Jedi and Sith for thousands of years. The teaching methods for the safe use of that power are long established, categorised, and classified. They're all drawing from the same source of power, as a result of similar training, along similar lines. So them all being capable of similar things makes sense. On the other hand mutant powers are a grab bag of randomness, courtesy of the quirks of unguided mutation.

There are a few quirks though. Corran Horn/Kieran Halcyon from some of the books had the ability to absorb energy, even from a lightsaber, and redirect as force energy. We see Darth Vader do the same in Empire Strikes Back when Han shoots at him on Bespin. And, much as I despise the prequels, there is the reference to Darth Plagueis, who basically became almost immortal thanks to the force, and Yoda catching and seemingly absorbing Force Lightning with ease. But that apparently required an immense mastery of the Force, and possibly a vast amount of time to reach that level. Not to mention going way beyond what they were taught.

It would basically turn every Sith or Jedi of importance into walking, semi-invincible gimmicks.

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 24 2015, 01:25 AM) *

I don't have any interest in MMOs either. I was so disappointed when The Old Republic came out. I would have vastly preferred a third Kotor game. Or another Jedi Academy game. Or even a new X-Wing game.

And yes, I want to play as a Twi'lek! Or an Iridonian, or a Tortugan! Humans are so boring. I already have to play one IRL. wink.gif


Same here. Anyone of those games would have been awesome.

And with the number of races popping up in the Star Wars universe, we really need the chance to play as them.

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Nov 24 2015, 02:09 AM) *

I’d like to see a future game move beyond the limiting confines of Jedi vs. Sith. Or, more precisely, i’d like to see Sith who aren’t all ‘twirl the mustache’ evil (or, at the very least, let’s see a bit more subtlety in the evil... like the machinations of Palpatine) and Jedi who aren’t all saccharine do-gooders (give us the option to be a Qui-Gon).

Good and evil in videosgames needs a complete overhaul in general. These games aren’t made for a pre-teen audience anymore, so why do we continue to have such an anachronistic morality system?


I have to agree with you on this.

In all honesty, I blame the Extended Universe for that. Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda, the proper Jedi from the original films, weren't the good guys. They were more grey than light or dark. Vader and Palpatine were definitely dark, but they were being opposed by the Rebels, and they were the good guys, not the Jedi. Luke wasn't even a good guy, not really. Once his Jedi training kicked in, he dropped the Rebels and went off to pursue his own goals. Take Return of the Jedi, where his goal was to redeem his father, while the Rebels were trying to bring down the oppressive Empire, and would have succeeded whether Luke was present or not.

But the Sith are the bad guys, and it takes Jedi to stop them. Which, by default, forces Jedi to be the good guys(becuase who wants complicated moral situations, right? rolleyes.gif ). Which is what they ran with for all the books and videogames. And the prequels were made for that pre-teen audience(******* Jar-Jar Binks mad.gif ), so why not make the games for them too? Bleh.


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SubRosa
post Nov 25 2015, 12:55 AM
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I discovered something interesting in KOTOR 2. The Stun/Disable Droid powers can also be used to blow up mines. That is very helpful, since it gives me a chance to knock them out before the rest of the party runs over them.


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Destri Melarg
post Nov 25 2015, 09:39 AM
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QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Nov 24 2015, 01:14 AM) *

In all honesty, I blame the Extended Universe for that. Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda, the proper Jedi from the original films, weren't the good guys. They were more grey than light or dark.

I agree with that to a certain degree. Tatooine Obi-Wan definitely falls into more of the anti-hero mold for the same reasons that you ascribe to Luke. He shows no real desire to rescue Leia or liberate the stolen plans once they arrive on the Death Star. He just goes off to do his own thing. Clone Wars era Obi-Wan is absolutely a good guy.

QUOTE
But the Sith are the bad guys, and it takes Jedi to stop them. Which, by default, forces Jedi to be the good guys(becuase who wants complicated moral situations, right? rolleyes.gif ). Which is what they ran with for all the books and videogames. And the prequels were made for that pre-teen audience(******* Jar-Jar Binks mad.gif ), so why not make the games for them too? Bleh.

The problem is that the Jedi never actually stop them, do they? That gets to the root of my problem with the Jedi Order. It seems to me that their stated purpose of protecting the Republic is always discarded anytime the Republic is actually threatened. The Jedi seem far more interested in vacillating and hiding than doing their stated job. Both Yoda and Obi-Wan retreat to the hind end of the galaxy to avoid getting involved in a war that they have (supposedly) dedicated themselves to fight. They are both content to leave the fate of the galaxy to the rebel alliance and a farm boy from Tatooine.

Even their rules against the stronger emotions bother me. Avoiding the passions that make us human because those passions could lead to the dark side isn't wisdom… it's cowardice. It seems to me that allowing oneself to feel said emotions and then rising above their tendency to corrupt is what would make one a stronger Jedi. What exactly constitutes the Jedi trials, anyway? I feel that it is probably in keeping with what Luke went through in the cave on Dagobah. That trial involved facing his fear, not running from it. I don't understand why that has to end the moment one becomes a full member of the Order.

This post has been edited by Destri Melarg: Nov 25 2015, 09:46 AM


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Callidus Thorn
post Nov 25 2015, 10:43 AM
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QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Nov 25 2015, 08:39 AM) *

QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Nov 24 2015, 01:14 AM) *

In all honesty, I blame the Extended Universe for that. Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda, the proper Jedi from the original films, weren't the good guys. They were more grey than light or dark.

I agree with that to a certain degree. Tatooine Obi-Wan definitely falls into more of the anti-hero mold for the same reasons that you ascribe to Luke. He shows no real desire to rescue Leia or liberate the stolen plans once they arrive on the Death Star. He just goes off to do his own thing. Clone Wars era Obi-Wan is absolutely a good guy.


Tatooine Obi-Wan was far more committed than Clone Wars Obi-Wan was. He sacrificed himself on the Death Star not so the Millennium Falcon could get away(which he'd already ensured) but so that he could continue to guide Luke.

Clone Wars Obi-Wan couldn't even finish off the man who brought down the Jedi Order.

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Nov 25 2015, 08:39 AM) *

QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Nov 24 2015, 01:14 AM) *

But the Sith are the bad guys, and it takes Jedi to stop them. Which, by default, forces Jedi to be the good guys(becuase who wants complicated moral situations, right? rolleyes.gif ). Which is what they ran with for all the books and videogames. And the prequels were made for that pre-teen audience(******* Jar-Jar Binks mad.gif ), so why not make the games for them too? Bleh.

The problem is that the Jedi never actually stop them, do they? That gets to the root of my problem with the Jedi Order. It seems to me that their stated purpose of protecting the Republic is always discarded anytime the Republic is actually threatened. The Jedi seem far more interested in vacillating and hiding than doing their stated job. Both Yoda and Obi-Wan retreat to the hind end of the galaxy to avoid getting involved in a war that they have (supposedly) dedicated themselves to fight. They are both content to leave the fate of the galaxy to the rebel alliance and a farm boy from Tatooine.

Even their rules against the stronger emotions bother me. Avoiding the passions that make us human because those passions could lead to the dark side isn't wisdom… it's cowardice. It seems to me that allowing oneself to feel said emotions and then rising above their tendency to corrupt is what would make one a stronger Jedi. What exactly constitutes the Jedi trials, anyway? I feel that it is probably in keeping with what Luke went through in the cave on Dagobah. That trial involved facing his fear, not running from it. I don't understand why that has to end the moment one becomes a full member of the Order.


Well, if they got rid of the Sith, who will they use for the enemy in the next game/book/comic/whatever?

I'd consider that a generous view of Yoda and Obi-Wan. They'd been hiding for years, waiting for Luke to come to them so that they could turn him into an unwitting weapon to kill his own father. And Yoda's even open to the possibility of using Leia should Luke fail. And personally, I actually liked that dark aspect of them. It made a nice contrast to Rebel Alliance vs The Empire, a clear good vs evil struggle.

The biggest problem with the Jedi Code is that it's more about avoidance than anything else. It's not that they want to be good, but that they don't want to be bad, because it's dangerous for them. But they're not really invested in anything, not in the Republic, not in each other, not even in their own lives, because that would require attachment and emotion. So you get this order that is supposed to be good, but has no actual reason to be beyond self-interest. Which is what tends to make Jedi crummy heroes.

At least the KotOR games manage to show this. In those we're told that the Jedi Council didn't fight with the Republic in the Mandalorian Wars because their concern was what war would mean for the Jedi. And then we're given heroes who could end up becoming villains instead.

I was under the impression that the test on Dagobah wasn't about confronting his fear, but about simply facing the dark side. He sees Vader, backs away in fear, and activates his lightsaber. Vader only activated his afterwards. Luke gave into fear, possibly anger too, and struck Vader's head off. Then the mask bursts open and we see Luke's face, the lesson being that by giving in to those emotions he destroyed himself. Or at least, that's how it always seemed to me. On the dvd that scene is listed as "Failure at the cave". Presumably that's what the trials came down to, facing the dark side and resisting it.

This post has been edited by Callidus Thorn: Nov 25 2015, 10:43 AM


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Destri Melarg
post Nov 25 2015, 06:03 PM
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The point is that he faced the dark side in that cave and emerged the better for it, despite the so-called failure. That failure is what fueled him to be able to withstand the later confrontations with Vader, which I don't believe would have been possible without the failure in the cave. Too often we see the Jedi run from those confrontations out of fear for what could happen. That, to me, is the very definition of cowardice.

And Clone Wars Obi-Wan absolutely failed, I agree with you on that. But success is not a measure of what makes one a good guy.


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SubRosa
post Nov 25 2015, 07:03 PM
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I agree with Destri here on Jedi emotion. The whole Jedi philosophy of fighting and repressing ones emotions has been proven to have disastrous consequences in the real world. When you deny your emotions you give up all control over them, and in the darkest recesses of your mind they grow into a Shadow that is guaranteed to break loose in the form of some extremely unfortunate behavior, usually at the most socially awkward moment possible.

The only way to master your emotions is to first accept them, and understand that they come from you and only you. No one can make you mad, or frightened, or happy. They all come from you, and you have the power to do something about them. With unwanted emotions - like jealousy and hatred - the next step is to take a hard, uncensored look at yourself and face the reasons you feel these things, and then do something about it. It might be to come to understand that the person you are jealous of doesn't really have it all that good after all, or to realize that you are projecting all of your own insecurities onto them, or just to buy a Jaguar so you can get hand-jobs from women you don't even know (a.k.a. the midlife crisis special)...

Most of all you have live with your emotions to learn to well, live with them. The Jedi never do that. Instead they learn to pretend to never to feel anything. They are the Cult of Prozac. It is no wonder that they have all the emotional durability of porcelain that has just been thrown out of a twenty story window. Sometimes it seems like every time a puppy dies a Jedi turns to the dark side. The Sith are no better, as they simply indulge all their most destructive emotions instead. One side has no Pathos, and the other no Ethos.

Instead they ought to be learning to live with their emotions in a healthy way, and in the process gaining true wisdom. Emotions are not a bad thing. Fear keeps people alive, it dissuades us from doing stupid things like dancing on the edge of cliffs, or jumping into lion cages (well, most of us at least). Anger has often led people to fight injustice. Without lust we wouldn't be alive in the first place. And so on. I think the whole Jedi/Sith philosophies are just evidence that George Lucas does not know a whole lot about actually living life.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Nov 25 2015, 07:52 PM


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SubRosa
post Nov 25 2015, 07:33 PM
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So am I the only one who thinks that Kylo Ren's outfit is a ripoff of Darth Revan's?

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Nov 26 2015, 01:05 AM


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mALX
post Nov 25 2015, 09:02 PM
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QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 25 2015, 01:33 PM) *

So am I the only one who think that Kylo Ren's outfit is a ripoff of Darth Revan's?



Ooooh, nice! Wish someone would make that for TES games!










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Callidus Thorn
post Nov 25 2015, 11:05 PM
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QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Nov 25 2015, 05:03 PM) *

The point is that he faced the dark side in that cave and emerged the better for it, despite the so-called failure. That failure is what fueled him to be able to withstand the later confrontations with Vader, which I don't believe would have been possible without the failure in the cave. Too often we see the Jedi run from those confrontations out of fear for what could happen. That, to me, is the very definition of cowardice.


Except he didn't. he failed the test so completely that after the vision he basically gave in to fear, abandoned his training, and ended up in a fight against Vader that he wasn't ready for. Rather than run away from a confrontation for fear of what could happen, Luke ran into a confrontation for fear of what could happen. Not only did he fail the test, but he failed to learn anything from it.

It's only after Luke goes back to Yoda in return of the Jedi that he's really a Jedi. He speaks to Yoda, and then to Obi-Wan , knowing that they lied to him. But he's not raging out or anything.

And bear in mind that later in the Extended Universe timeline Luke Skywalker turned to the dark side. So even after confronting the dark side, and then redeeming his father from it, he still turned to the dark side and ended up serving the Reborn Emperor.

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Nov 25 2015, 05:03 PM) *

And Clone Wars Obi-Wan absolutely failed, I agree with you on that. But success is not a measure of what makes one a good guy.


True, but the fact he didn't finish Anakin off shows a distinct lack of conviction. Then again, his hands were tied by the original films, so I suppose you can't solely blame him for that laugh.gif And in all honesty, I don't think that any Jedi involved in the Clone Wars can be considered good, since it meant them turning a blind eye to the slave army the Republic is using.

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 25 2015, 06:03 PM) *

I agree with Destri here on Jedi emotion. The whole Jedi philosophy of fighting and repressing ones emotions has been proven to have disastrous consequences in the real world. When you deny your emotions you give up all control over them, and in the darkest recesses of your mind they grow into a Shadow that is guaranteed to break loose in the form of some extremely unfortunate behavior, usually at the most socially awkward moment possible.

The only way to master your emotions is to first accept them, and understand that they come from you and only you. No one can make you mad, or frightened, or happy. They all come from you, and you have the power to do something about them. With unwanted emotions - like jealousy and hatred - the next step is to take a hard, uncensored look at yourself and face the reasons you feel these things, and then do something about it. It might be to come to understand that the person you are jealous of doesn't really have it all that good after all, or to realize that you are projecting all of your own insecurities onto them, or just to buy a Jaguar so you can get hand-jobs from women you don't even know (a.k.a. the midlife crisis special)...

Most of all you have live with your emotions to learn to well, live with them. The Jedi never do that. Instead they learn to pretend to never to feel anything. They are the Cult of Prozac. It is no wonder that they have all the emotional durability of porcelain that has just been thrown out of a twenty story window. Sometimes it seems like every time a puppy dies a Jedi turns to the dark side. The Sith are no better, as they simply indulge all their most destructive emotions instead. One side has no Pathos, and the other no Ethos.

Instead they ought to be learning to live with their emotions in a healthy way, and in the process gaining true wisdom. Emotions are not a bad thing. Fear keeps people alive, it dissuades us from doing stupid things like dancing on the edge of cliffs, or jumping into lion cages (well, most of us at least). Anger has often led people to fight injustice. Without lust we wouldn't be alive in the first place. And so on. I think the whole Jedi/Sith philosophies are just evidence that George Lucas does not know a whole lot about actually living life.


While I agree with you in principle, I don't think it can be directly applied to the Jedi. Bear in mind we don't know the mechanics of how the Jedi and Sith manipulate and direct the Force, the impact their emotional state has on that, or exactly how great the risks involved are. What we're doing is the equivalent of debating magical techniques in Dungeons and Dragons.

But consider how much damage an emotionally unstable person could do with a gun. The Force has far greater destructive potential than that, and it's not something someone can simply put down. Stripping them of their connection to the Force is possible, but appears to require several Jedi Masters to do so, and is irreversible. And these individuals can manipulate the Force long before they would reach emotional maturity.

The Jedi have thousands of years worth of examples of what can happen when a Jedi turns to the dark side, including Sith Lords who've brought the Republic to it's knees, fought the Jedi Order to the brink of destruction, or wiped out entire planets. It's not like they're exaggerating the threat, and using emotions to channel the Force is a Sith doctrine, written into their own Code. Is it really any surprise the Jedi take the opposite stance?

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Nov 25 2015, 06:33 PM) *

So am I the only one who think that Kylo Ren's outfit is a ripoff of Darth Revan's?


I'll be honest, there's been an advert on tv for batteries with that mask on it, and until now I could have sworn it actually was Revan on there instead rollinglaugh.gif


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SubRosa
post Nov 26 2015, 01:03 AM
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QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Nov 25 2015, 05:05 PM) *

While I agree with you in principle, I don't think it can be directly applied to the Jedi. Bear in mind we don't know the mechanics of how the Jedi and Sith manipulate and direct the Force, the impact their emotional state has on that, or exactly how great the risks involved are. What we're doing is the equivalent of debating magical techniques in Dungeons and Dragons.

But consider how much damage an emotionally unstable person could do with a gun. The Force has far greater destructive potential than that, and it's not something someone can simply put down. Stripping them of their connection to the Force is possible, but appears to require several Jedi Masters to do so, and is irreversible. And these individuals can manipulate the Force long before they would reach emotional maturity.

The Jedi have thousands of years worth of examples of what can happen when a Jedi turns to the dark side, including Sith Lords who've brought the Republic to it's knees, fought the Jedi Order to the brink of destruction, or wiped out entire planets. It's not like they're exaggerating the threat, and using emotions to channel the Force is a Sith doctrine, written into their own Code. Is it really any surprise the Jedi take the opposite stance?

Which is why if they were wise, the Jedi would learn to control their emotions. Especially before they learn to kill people with nothing but a thought. As I said, repressing your emotions is a guarantee that you cannot control them. It insures an unstable mind. The Jedi's very teachings push them to the dark side. They create the threat with their own ignorance of basic psychology.


This post has been edited by SubRosa: Nov 26 2015, 01:05 AM


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