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> Star Wars Thread 1: The Phantom Post, Star Wars
Dark Reaper
post Oct 3 2016, 01:11 AM
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Eh Star Wars thread on the Bethesda forums lets bring it here. Anyway if anyone here love Red Letter Media and the Star Wars Pizza Roll review then you're in luck cause He's Baaaaack.

I love the part where he talks about the connection between the prequels and the original trilogy as it give you an insight that the prequels COULD have worked as proper Star Wars films, but it was the sloppy writing that did the most damage. The review is giving me an urge to rewatch the prequels.......Excuse me I need to take a shower in hot water and cry uncontrollably.


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Darkness Eternal
post Oct 3 2016, 01:35 AM
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Awesome! I am a huge SW nerd. I'll check it out. Darth Maul was the only reason I liked episode I, though I don't like what they did with his character after that. New canon has some terrible stuff in it. The clones were not what they were meant to be in the Clone Wars after they introduced them in the cartoons. We have Dave Felonious to thank for that.


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And yet I am, and live—like vapours tossed.
I long for scenes where man hath never trod
A place where woman never smiled or wept
There to abide with my Creator, God,
And sleep as I in childhood sweetly slept,
Untroubling and untroubled where I lie
The grass below—above the vaulted sky.”
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Dark Reaper
post Oct 3 2016, 02:01 AM
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QUOTE(Darkness Eternal @ Oct 2 2016, 07:35 PM) *

Awesome! I am a huge SW nerd. I'll check it out. Darth Maul was the only reason I liked episode I, though I don't like what they did with his character after that. New canon has some terrible stuff in it. The clones were not what they were meant to be in the Clone Wars after they introduced them in the cartoons. We have Dave Felonious to thank for that.


I haven't seen all of the Clone Wars series and I've only seen the pilot movie of Rebels the latter being more interesting to me. I'm still kinda wondering where my fandom lies most in either Star Trek or Star Wars as I love both equally.


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TheCheshireKhajiit
post Oct 3 2016, 02:12 AM
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QUOTE(Dark Reaper @ Oct 2 2016, 08:01 PM) *

I haven't seen all of the Clone Wars series and I've only seen the pilot movie of Rebels the latter being more interesting to me. I'm still kinda wondering where my fandom lies most in either Star Trek or Star Wars as I love both equally.

You need to watch the whole series! It's good.


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Darkness Eternal
post Oct 3 2016, 02:19 AM
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The Clone Wars is great. Simply great. As I've said, the clones had a better direction in the EU. The whole mind control-chip storyline that forced the clones to execute Order 66 and kill the Jedi was ridiculous.

But other than that its great. I prefer it to Rebels. Clone Wars is a bit more mature.


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And yet I am, and live—like vapours tossed.
I long for scenes where man hath never trod
A place where woman never smiled or wept
There to abide with my Creator, God,
And sleep as I in childhood sweetly slept,
Untroubling and untroubled where I lie
The grass below—above the vaulted sky.”
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Dark Reaper
post Oct 3 2016, 02:54 AM
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QUOTE(TheCheshireKhajiit @ Oct 2 2016, 08:12 PM) *

QUOTE(Dark Reaper @ Oct 2 2016, 08:01 PM) *

I haven't seen all of the Clone Wars series and I've only seen the pilot movie of Rebels the latter being more interesting to me. I'm still kinda wondering where my fandom lies most in either Star Trek or Star Wars as I love both equally.

You need to watch the whole series! It's good.


I'll try to get the series if I can.


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TheCheshireKhajiit
post Oct 3 2016, 06:04 AM
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QUOTE(Dark Reaper @ Oct 2 2016, 08:54 PM) *
I'll try to get the series if I can.

Some of the things from The Clone Wars carries over to Rebels too. I think you won't be sorry if you get a chance to watch The Clone Wars in its entirety.


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mirocu
post Oct 3 2016, 08:42 AM
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Yay, Star Wars! biggrin.gif


But no need to name threads with numbers. We don´t really have a post limit here smile.gif


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Callidus Thorn
post Oct 3 2016, 08:42 AM
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QUOTE(Dark Reaper @ Oct 3 2016, 01:11 AM) *

I love the part where he talks about the connection between the prequels and the original trilogy as it give you an insight that the prequels COULD have worked as proper Star Wars films, but it was the sloppy writing that did the most damage. The review is giving me an urge to rewatch the prequels.......Excuse me I need to take a shower in hot water and cry uncontrollably.


We do actually have a Star Wars thread "The Nerf-Herder's Rest", but it's been dead for a while, so why not.

Wow, those videos go on a bit. I think I'll have to pass for the sake of my datacap.

I don't know that it was sloppy writing that let the prequels down. They always struck me as pretty much unnecessary, since we knew what was going to happen the moment we saw Anakin Skywalker and Senator Palpatine pop up. No matter how they could have written it, we were still being told a story we already knew the ending to. Though the fact that Lucas couldn't even keep continuity with his own films is hilarious.

And I agree with DE that Darth Maul was the only good thing about Episode 1.


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Uleni Athram
post Oct 3 2016, 09:02 AM
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Darth Maul alone was the only good thing about the Prequels for me. So much potential, so much untapped awesome potential..... IMO he should've survived and taken Grievous' place as Obi-Wan's main opponent. But then that raises the question of how Dooku would fit in in the scenario of Maul surviving, since having them both around violates the Ro2. Interesting stuff to think about nonetheless.


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She said I'm insane, yeah
I might blow my brains out
Xanny numb the pain, yeah
Please, Xanny make it go away
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mirocu
post Oct 3 2016, 09:07 AM
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Luke Guys, I am your father there are no prequels or sequels. Only the Originals and Best cool.gif


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Uleni Athram
post Oct 3 2016, 09:12 AM
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QUOTE(mirocu @ Oct 3 2016, 05:07 PM) *

Luke Guys, I am your father there are no prequels or sequels. Only the Originals and Best cool.gif

My mastery of Juyo and Trakata will cut your opinion down

devilsad.gif


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She said I'm insane, yeah
I might blow my brains out
Xanny numb the pain, yeah
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Callidus Thorn
post Oct 3 2016, 09:26 AM
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QUOTE(Uleni Athram @ Oct 3 2016, 09:02 AM) *

Darth Maul alone was the only good thing about the Prequels for me. So much potential, so much untapped awesome potential..... IMO he should've survived and taken Grievous' place as Obi-Wan's main opponent. But then that raises the question of how Dooku would fit in in the scenario of Maul surviving, since having them both around violates the Ro2. Interesting stuff to think about nonetheless.


Personally, I rather liked Dooku, even his fight against Yoda(Just for the comic value. I remember watching it in a cinema with a friend, and we couldn't stop laughing at it. It's kind of sad that that fight was still better than anything in Revenge laugh.gif )

And Maul definitely would have been a better choice than Grievous, though maybe have him go toe-to-toe with Mace Windu instead of Obi-Wan. That would have been such a cool fight.

I could see Sidious throwing a third Sith into the mix without any trouble. Part of his plan was that both Grievous and Dooku were expendable, especially once he's decided to make Anakin his apprentice. So if he's planning to kill both Dooku and Maul, all he needs to do is make sure they don't unite against him(easy enough given their characters) and he can just let the Jedi kill them, remain hidden, and recruit Anakin afterwards.


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Uleni Athram
post Oct 3 2016, 09:52 AM
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QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Oct 3 2016, 05:26 PM) *

QUOTE(Uleni Athram @ Oct 3 2016, 09:02 AM) *

Darth Maul alone was the only good thing about the Prequels for me. So much potential, so much untapped awesome potential..... IMO he should've survived and taken Grievous' place as Obi-Wan's main opponent. But then that raises the question of how Dooku would fit in in the scenario of Maul surviving, since having them both around violates the Ro2. Interesting stuff to think about nonetheless.


Personally, I rather liked Dooku, even his fight against Yoda(Just for the comic value. I remember watching it in a cinema with a friend, and we couldn't stop laughing at it. It's kind of sad that that fight was still better than anything in Revenge laugh.gif )

And Maul definitely would have been a better choice than Grievous, though maybe have him go toe-to-toe with Mace Windu instead of Obi-Wan. That would have been such a cool fight.

I could see Sidious throwing a third Sith into the mix without any trouble. Part of his plan was that both Grievous and Dooku were expendable, especially once he's decided to make Anakin his apprentice. So if he's planning to kill both Dooku and Maul, all he needs to do is make sure they don't unite against him(easy enough given their characters) and he can just let the Jedi kill them, remain hidden, and recruit Anakin afterwards.


Dooku was... I dunno, he lacked that pure punch of impression that made him memorable as an entity for me. It could be that I saw him more as Saruman In Space! that tilts me to this view, heh. His duels were meh as well, but it couldn't be helped I suppose, the actor portraying him wasn't young anyway (RIP Christopher Lee).

Maul vs Mace? HOHOHOHO, now that's certainly a duel for the ages. I always entertained the thought that Maul has a decent chance of winning, but the wombo combo that is Shatterpoint and Vaapad is just beyond even his martial excellence. Maul would probably get his head cut off like Daddy Fett after a lengthy and epic showdown.

I could totally see Sidious doing that kind of iconoclastic move considering that in the EU he essentially had a legion of dark siders at his beck and call (abused a loophole in the Ro2), but IMO having two Sith would probably present more risks than benefits in the long run. I mean they might be pawns, but pawns can still eat kings and I can see one of them revealing who Palpatine really is to the Jedi after realizing Palpatine's penultimate goal of casting them aside.


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She said I'm insane, yeah
I might blow my brains out
Xanny numb the pain, yeah
Please, Xanny make it go away
I'm committed, not addicted, but it keep controlling me
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Callidus Thorn
post Oct 3 2016, 10:51 AM
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QUOTE(Uleni Athram @ Oct 3 2016, 09:52 AM) *

Dooku was... I dunno, he lacked that pure punch of impression that made him memorable as an entity for me. It could be that I saw him more as Saruman In Space! that tilts me to this view, heh. His duels were meh as well, but it couldn't be helped I suppose, the actor portraying him wasn't young anyway (RIP Christopher Lee).


That was actually one of the things I liked about Dooku. He wasn't in-your-face hostile like Maul was. He was megalomaniacal like Sidious. He was restrained, presented as much as being against the corrupt Jedi order as anything else. And I personally preferred his dueling style to that of the other saber-jockeys in the films, because his usage, in my opinion, was more in line with Obi-Wan's description of the weepon in A New Hope: "An elegant weapon... for a more civilized age.".

QUOTE(Uleni Athram @ Oct 3 2016, 09:52 AM) *

Maul vs Mace? HOHOHOHO, now that's certainly a duel for the ages. I always entertained the thought that Maul has a decent chance of winning, but the wombo combo that is Shatterpoint and Vaapad is just beyond even his martial excellence. Maul would probably get his head cut off like Daddy Fett after a lengthy and epic showdown.


Well, with Maul being a more fierce opponent, it would leave Mace skirting the dark side a little closer than usual in order to win. But I agree, it would make for an epic fight which Mace wins. But it would have been the best lightsaber fight in the Star Wars universe!

QUOTE(Uleni Athram @ Oct 3 2016, 09:52 AM) *

I could totally see Sidious doing that kind of iconoclastic move considering that in the EU he essentially had a legion of dark siders at his beck and call (abused a loophole in the Ro2), but IMO having two Sith would probably present more risks than benefits in the long run. I mean they might be pawns, but pawns can still eat kings and I can see one of them revealing who Palpatine really is to the Jedi after realizing Palpatine's penultimate goal of casting them aside.


They could try and reveal Palpatine, but one's a Sith and the other walked out on the Jedi Order to become a Sith. I don't see the Jedi believing either one of them. As for realising Palpatine's penultimate goal; Dooku and Grievous never saw it coming, and both of them were looking at the strategy behind the war. I could see Palpatine taking that risk to make sure he can pull off his plan. It even gives him a little added incentive for sending out Maul in Episode One(I can't bring myself to name that film) since the Jedi wouldn't trust Maul after he openly opposes them as a Sith.


Of course, all of this would have relied on Lucas' ability to pull this off, so it would probably have made the prequels even worse rollinglaugh.gif


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Uleni Athram
post Oct 3 2016, 11:09 AM
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QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Oct 3 2016, 06:51 PM) *

QUOTE(Uleni Athram @ Oct 3 2016, 09:52 AM) *

Dooku was... I dunno, he lacked that pure punch of impression that made him memorable as an entity for me. It could be that I saw him more as Saruman In Space! that tilts me to this view, heh. His duels were meh as well, but it couldn't be helped I suppose, the actor portraying him wasn't young anyway (RIP Christopher Lee).


That was actually one of the things I liked about Dooku. He wasn't in-your-face hostile like Maul was. He was megalomaniacal like Sidious. He was restrained, presented as much as being against the corrupt Jedi order as anything else. And I personally preferred his dueling style to that of the other saber-jockeys in the films, because his usage, in my opinion, was more in line with Obi-Wan's description of the weepon in A New Hope: "An elegant weapon... for a more civilized age.".

QUOTE(Uleni Athram @ Oct 3 2016, 09:52 AM) *

Maul vs Mace? HOHOHOHO, now that's certainly a duel for the ages. I always entertained the thought that Maul has a decent chance of winning, but the wombo combo that is Shatterpoint and Vaapad is just beyond even his martial excellence. Maul would probably get his head cut off like Daddy Fett after a lengthy and epic showdown.


Well, with Maul being a more fierce opponent, it would leave Mace skirting the dark side a little closer than usual in order to win. But I agree, it would make for an epic fight which Mace wins. But it would have been the best lightsaber fight in the Star Wars universe!

QUOTE(Uleni Athram @ Oct 3 2016, 09:52 AM) *

I could totally see Sidious doing that kind of iconoclastic move considering that in the EU he essentially had a legion of dark siders at his beck and call (abused a loophole in the Ro2), but IMO having two Sith would probably present more risks than benefits in the long run. I mean they might be pawns, but pawns can still eat kings and I can see one of them revealing who Palpatine really is to the Jedi after realizing Palpatine's penultimate goal of casting them aside.


They could try and reveal Palpatine, but one's a Sith and the other walked out on the Jedi Order to become a Sith. I don't see the Jedi believing either one of them. As for realising Palpatine's penultimate goal; Dooku and Grievous never saw it coming, and both of them were looking at the strategy behind the war. I could see Palpatine taking that risk to make sure he can pull off his plan. It even gives him a little added incentive for sending out Maul in Episode One(I can't bring myself to name that film) since the Jedi wouldn't trust Maul after he openly opposes them as a Sith.


Of course, all of this would have relied on Lucas' ability to pull this off, so it would probably have made the prequels even worse rollinglaugh.gif

Less on Lucas' ability to pull it off and more on the Jedi's basic ability to understand what was said to them, really. Like, Dooku actually said to either Anakin or Obi-Wan that the Senate was actually in control of the Sith and come Revenge when the reveal was set up, they were actually surprised! Derp


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She said I'm insane, yeah
I might blow my brains out
Xanny numb the pain, yeah
Please, Xanny make it go away
I'm committed, not addicted, but it keep controlling me
All that pain, now I can't feel it, I swear that it's slowing me
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Darkness Eternal
post Oct 3 2016, 12:10 PM
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Essentially all the Sith do is backstab one another. I believe Dooku was fooled into Sidious' plan and genuinely believed he had a part to play in the great Sith-dominated future. Darth Vader was seduced but he also planned on using Sidious to save Padme. After Palpatine revealed himself as a Sith Lord and became his new mentor, I think Vader began to see some similarities with him and Obi-Wan. There's a part in the novel that explains this well enough. In the end Vader wanted to overthrow The Emperor and rule the galaxy with Padme.

I still think the clone inhibitor chip introduced in the Clone Wars cartoon was a bad idea.

The fact that it’s supposed to make clones less independent and more loyal? Got it. Tracking. I can get behind that. The fact that it sort of overrode all brain power and made them compliant zombies for Order 66? Stupid.

They could’ve said that, under direct order, clones knowingly gunned down their own Jedi generals and I would have no problem believing it.

Look who gave the order. The Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic personally contacted clone commanders. That’s like if the President of the United States personally called me and told me that my general was now a traitor to the country. Why would I have reason to doubt the President? He gets intel briefs from echelons and agencies I’ve probably never even heard of. And here he is telling me that my general is compromised. It doesn’t matter if I’m on good terms with the general; once that information is made known, it now colors all my opinions and assumptions.

Not everyone knows the general. It’s great to see how well Torrent Company gets along with Anakin. The 212th with Obi-Wan. The Wolfpack with Plo. In the military, outside of formal ceremonies where you see the brass from a distance, some servicemen have to meet their general face to face. 99% of clones (millions of clones, thousands of Jedi) are NOT going to interact with someone as high ranking as the general. They’re not going to form the bond that the clone commanders had with their superiors. They’re not going to have experiences that would possibly make them question an order from the Supreme Chancellor, and are more prone to follow a command from someone who is considered to outrank even the Jedi.

Contingency plans for worst-case scenarios exist. “If this were to happen, no matter how unlikely, we’ll respond like this.” On the surface, Order 66 appears to be a sensible precaution. It gives clones, bred to be unwaveringly loyal, the ability to remove their general from power if that general becomes compromised. And while you look at Jedi like Obi-Wan and Mace Windu and think, “How would clones ever believe these guys could be bad?” I look at a Jedi like Pong Krell and think, “Order 66 this loser now.”

Their duty is to the Republic, not their general. Solidarity is great, but if your leadership is now believed to be helping the enemy– in any capacity– your friendship is worthless anymore. Order 66 implies their Jedi already betrayed them by working against the interests of the Republic. Betraying the Republic is treason. Treason during warfare is punishable by death. (Civilian mindset: That’s too harsh a punishment! Military mindset: No, it’s not.)

The brain chip strikes me as lazy storytelling from people who don’t grasp the military mindset. It’s the “Greedo shot first” way out of a situation: to make clones look like the victims of the "evil" Palpatine instead of the aggressors. And while it could be argued that the brain chip fully takes away their ability to make decisions, basically turning them into obedient droids and further violating their humanity (adding to the long list of injustices the clones suffered because the Kaminoans saw them as less-than-sentient), it comes across as a cop-out. “The clones aren’t bad. They were taken advantage of! Palpatine’s the only bad one here.”

Without the brain chip, you’re left with: men who were given a direct order from the highest echelon to legally implement a contingency plan they’d had all along to eradicate a superior that was now seen as a willful traitor.

Tell me that clones knowingly, intelligently and voluntarily executed Order 66 against their Jedi leadership, and I’d believe it. Battlefront II had the clones knowing that if came down to it, and the Jedi were deemed traitors to the Republic, they would do it sans hesitation.

This post has been edited by Darkness Eternal: Oct 3 2016, 12:18 PM


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And yet I am, and live—like vapours tossed.
I long for scenes where man hath never trod
A place where woman never smiled or wept
There to abide with my Creator, God,
And sleep as I in childhood sweetly slept,
Untroubling and untroubled where I lie
The grass below—above the vaulted sky.”
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Kane
post Oct 3 2016, 01:24 PM
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Clone Wars was awesome, I just finished it recently. Sadly, that show got the Anakin the movies should've had.

Totes excited for Rogue One!
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Darkness Eternal
post Oct 3 2016, 02:30 PM
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Me to. Can't wait to see Vader kill some terrorist/Rebel scum!


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And yet I am, and live—like vapours tossed.
I long for scenes where man hath never trod
A place where woman never smiled or wept
There to abide with my Creator, God,
And sleep as I in childhood sweetly slept,
Untroubling and untroubled where I lie
The grass below—above the vaulted sky.”
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Callidus Thorn
post Oct 3 2016, 04:06 PM
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QUOTE(Uleni Athram @ Oct 3 2016, 11:09 AM) *

Less on Lucas' ability to pull it off and more on the Jedi's basic ability to understand what was said to them, really. Like, Dooku actually said to either Anakin or Obi-Wan that the Senate was actually in control of the Sith and come Revenge when the reveal was set up, they were actually surprised! Derp


To be fair to the Jedi, I'm not sure if its said just how many knew how clouded the Force had become, and how little the Jedi Council could actually see. And it's not as though Obi-Wan(I'm pretty sure it was him)had any reason to trust Dooku, who was not only one of those who turned away from the Order, but was working with those who'd imprisoned him(If I'm remembering the scene correctly).

QUOTE(Darkness Eternal @ Oct 3 2016, 12:10 PM) *

Essentially all the Sith do is backstab one another. I believe Dooku was fooled into Sidious' plan and genuinely believed he had a part to play in the great Sith-dominated future. Darth Vader was seduced but he also planned on using Sidious to save Padme. After Palpatine revealed himself as a Sith Lord and became his new mentor, I think Vader began to see some similarities with him and Obi-Wan. There's a part in the novel that explains this well enough. In the end Vader wanted to overthrow The Emperor and rule the galaxy with Padme.


Strictly speaking it's not all the Sith do. They have unified numerous times, generally for another crusade against the Republic or the Jedi. But their philosophy does lead them to think a certain way, and knowing what they've done(or would be prepared to do) in the name of acquiring power, it's no real surprise.

Dooku knew what the Jedi had become; enforcers propping up a corrupt and failing Republic, then he learned it was all part of an elaborate and long term Sith scheme. My guess is that he felt more trapped than anything else: It was too late to save the Jedi, centuries too late, and he knew how much damage had been done in previous Sith wars against the Republic. In one of the books he even goes so far as to try and return to the Jedi Order. And Vader was more a dark Jedi than a Sith at that point, considering how at the end of the film he was throwing around words like "evil" in relation to the Jedi(which felt hilariously forced, by the way). And let's face it, Vader's idea of overthrowing Palpatine was far better handled in The Empire Strikes Back.

QUOTE(Darkness Eternal @ Oct 3 2016, 12:10 PM) *

I still think the clone inhibitor chip introduced in the Clone Wars cartoon was a bad idea.

*snip*



Yeah, that does sound like a horrible idea.

But Order 66 was very much a blanket policy. It couldn't be used to remove a general, only to remove that entire level of the chain of command. Having a contingency plan to remove pretty much everyone between the commander-in-chief and the clone commanders in the field does seem a little extreme. But then, the Clone Army was always part of the trap, they just didn't know it.

One of the things I like about some of the Clone Wars books is that some of the clones, usually commandos who have more independence than the standard clone trooper, didn't carry out Order 66. In particular I'm rather fond of the Republic Commando books, though no so much the last one, as they explain(or in other words, patch the holes of) a lot of what went on.

Personally, I think Order 66 has its problems. For one thing, if entire levels of the chain of command have turned traitor, not just certain individuals, then that's the sort of thing that would require actual evidence. If the president of the US issued an order to summarily execute every high ranking officer in the army on charges of treason, without a shred of proof or even the pretense of due process, I sincerely doubt even a single shot would be fired.

And that's the one of the biggest problems the movies have, in my opinion. It's clones versus droids, and frankly you might as well call it meat droids versus metal droids, going on the films. But the more you humanise the clones, the harder it becomes to square that unthinking, unquestioning response to Order 66. Because as far as the film is concerned, not one clone questioned or disobeyed that order. And it's not just Jedi in the field that were being targeted, but those at the Jedi Temple who hadn't even been involved in the fighting. To use your US example again, if the order in the previous paragraph were extended to include the summary execution of children on the same charge, the army would just turn around and arrest the President.

The kind of unthinking obedience displayed by the clones fundamentally undermines any attempt to present them as anything more than droids made of flesh and bone instead of metal. The inhibitor chip is a shoddy patch for a problem that shouldn't have existed in the first place, in my opinion.


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- Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 21st August 2019 - 05:04 PM