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Posted by: monkeyemoness Feb 6 2019, 11:13 PM

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/55715

Gonna miss him tbh, and whoever replaces him has some big shoes to fill. Or else.



EDIT: Oh, his successor wrote a good chunk of the Clockwork City! Okay, I'm not worried at all.

Posted by: mALX Feb 8 2019, 05:54 AM

Aw

Reading this made me think of Michael Kirkbride; and how long it has been since we have heard his spouting of Lore. He has written something about the 5th Era; which makes me wonder if that will be the timing of the next Elder Scrolls game! Here is an excerpt from that story:


https://www.c0da.es/t/loveletter



Oh how I miss when these Devs used to get into big Lore discussions with their fans!

We love you Michael Kirkbride and Lawrence Schick!

Posted by: monkeyemoness Feb 8 2019, 11:36 PM

I don't!

To deny that he made some amazing contributions to TES lore and set it apart from every cookie-cutter fantasy setting out there (or at the very least, uplifted it from its DnD homebrew origins), would be very stupid. He also stuck adamantly to the "open source" aspect of TES lore, as Schick did too, which I also appreciate and love.

But on the other hand his writing eventually became more deranged and nonsensical, his woman characters come in only two settings, those being "Mom" or "Whore", or both at once (his take on Almalexia), he has a creepy fixation on "intersex=divine", he LOVES to use sexual violence in his writing, and his interactions with the fandom can easily be described as abusive and monstrous (but this isn't the place for that discussion).

A while back he decided to bow out of the TES fandom, to everyone's benefit. Zenimax/Bethesda, to their credit, DO incorporate some of his better work done outside of their, hm, supervision, so at least there's that. (C0DA was actually referenced in Morrowind and the Clockwork City, actually)

Posted by: mALX Feb 9 2019, 06:53 AM

BOLD: I do have to agree with you on this; his writings on the Imperial Library and the Lore section of the Bethesda Official Forums were beginning to show that before he "disappeared." But for what he did before that; I have to give him credit and homage. He was never abusive (that I saw) on the Imperial Library forums; he was kind of worshiped by all there = wouldn't have been if he'd been obnoxious without reason.

I found some odd sexual stories going on in the older TES stories = rape, (Molag Bal) incest, (6th House/Poison Song) promiscuity, (Barenziah) or just plain weird stuff (like King Hrol with a mound of dirt he thought was Alessia on the site that later became Sancre Tor and supposedly produced Reman 1 thirty years later) etc. - but all that was in the Lore long before Michael Kirkbride started fraying at the edges struggling to retain the threads of the more complex aspects of the Lore he created and developed.

Also = can't even talk about TES without thinking of Ted Peterson.

Posted by: monkeyemoness Feb 9 2019, 07:53 AM

I wrote several paragraphs documenting a lot of his, uh, questionable behavior but thought it was best to not bring that in here lol.


But yeah, Ted Petersen's another good one lol

Posted by: mALX Feb 9 2019, 05:04 PM

I never followed him anywhere but the Official Bethesda Forums and the Imperial Library = Lore discussions; where he was kind of the "Guru" since a lot of it sprang from his mind originally. But towards the later years some of his explanations began to become convoluted sounding and so thick to wade through that I kind of started dropping back and using the original texts instead of the discussions. (My own interpretations might never be as knowledgeable as his answers; but were easier to come to a conclusion on). That said; if he answered a question I still felt compelled to read it. Sometimes his answers were canon; or you could decipher where Lore started to disintegrate.

Truthfully = I had begun to wonder if he had early onset Alzheimer's or was drinking/on meds (or maybe needed to get back on some meds, lol).

I didn't know he RP'd! Did you RP with him or come across it? From what you've said, his behavior on that RP = Wow! That kind of makes me wonder what the heck is going on with him behind the scenes? I mean...I was joking about needing to get back on meds, but ... really does sound like something isn't right. Maybe that is what caused the separation with Bethesda.

Posted by: Darkness Eternal Feb 10 2019, 03:06 PM

I wasn’t too big on Kirkbride’s work. While the metaphysical intricacies were interest at least, there was some strange content in his writing. While I personally don’t shy away from heavier content, I don’t “worship” it the least or dwell too much on the sexual violent stuff. I honestly found the whole Azura/spear/throat/explosion quite absurd. Insanely absurd! There was also mention of Vivec and Molag Bal and some odd stuff happening between them. Could be metaphorical but some lore experts actually believe it “happened” in lore.

Kirkbride is a strange one.

Posted by: mALX Feb 10 2019, 08:35 PM

Did you see that too? I haven't seen it yet. Hmmm.

Posted by: monkeyemoness Feb 10 2019, 09:53 PM

Back in The Old Days the devs would occasionally start threads where they talked in-character that added to the overall body of lore (I might be mistaken but "The Posting of the Hunt" lore book might have started out as such a thread)

There are also others like Vivec's meetings with various figures, and the final volume of Vivec's Sermon (which made it into ESO). For the most part I just lurked the lore forums and such when I started getting into MK's stuff. Needless to say, it wasn't long before my opinion of him started to change for the worse.

I personally witnessed one of his petty jabs at a forum goer through writing unfold in real time in a thread concerning his vision on Morrowind's playable characters. I vividly remember this because it was pretty much the turning point for me lol. Although things WERE building up constantly before that point, seeing his knee-jerk reaction to criticism and to "otherkin" being brought up along with seeing good chunk of people defending his pettiness as the "natural" reaction (because he also did it to them) turned me off to the lore community as a whole.

It was only long after that that I learned he took things too far, particularly that he made violent threats against others on facebook, at least. (I have screenshots but i rather not link to them)



It did, if one of their children showing up in ESO is any indication. The fact that the spear Vivec "acquired" during that assault is an anagram of "trauma" kinda makes the context of the Azura thing a LOT darker and in retrospect makes the scene a LOT worse now. That his fans play up the scene with Molag Bal as something humorous (even though, symbolically, Vivec was DISSOCIATING FROM THE TRAUMA DURING THE ENTIRE THING) just takes it to another level.

Posted by: mALX Feb 11 2019, 07:07 AM

I used to lurk on the Lore section of the Official Bethesda forums too; just either missed all that going on or maybe it all just went over my head, lol. How strange!

Posted by: Darkness Eternal Feb 11 2019, 03:49 PM

Yeah I’ve seen it awhile back in the forums.


It did? Well, that’s unsettling. I understand Elder Scrolls lore can be humorous just as it can be disturbing but that’s pretty wild. I remember the Vivec part making it into lore in his sermons, yeah but I struggled to find the Azura one again. With our current loremaster leaving ESO, I wonder who will come in and fill in the shoes.

Posted by: mALX Feb 11 2019, 08:07 PM

I'd like to continue this discussion, can we move it to another thread/start a thread for it and move these posts to it?

Posted by: Acadian Feb 11 2019, 09:39 PM

Per request, have created this new thread for lore and added the ongoing lore discussion posts to it. Enjoy!

Posted by: RaderOfTheLostArk Feb 12 2019, 04:12 PM

Oh, yes. Michael Kirkbride. One of my..."favorite" topics. I have mixed feelings about him, at best. Mostly negative.

I more or less agree. There is denying the positive contributions he has made to the lore, which wouldn't be the same without him. But some of his esoteric work is just...too out there. I'm decidedly not a fan of a lot of it, and it feels more like him just being his usual self-aggrandizing self. And he really can't take criticism of it, but a lot of times the legion of MK bootlickers just attack people for him.

Although come to think of it, you're right, he DOES write about sexual stuff--particularly sexual violence--a lot. That's really creepy.




Another thing that bothers me about the MK worship--and this time more so his overzealous fans. They act like MK is the only person who has ever contributed anything worthwhile to the series and nobody else's writing matters or it sucks. That pisses me off. Not only is it wrong and obnoxious, but it is a slap in the face to those who have made significant contributions. What about Ted Peterson, like you said? Marilyn Wasserman, the namesake of Mara? Julian LeFay, albeit really early on? Todd Howard, whatever his faults may be? Ken Rolston?




That's disgusting. The dude really needs to get over himself. And the fans just make it far worse when they excuse his behavior. The way he'll come on, spout cryptic [censored], and act like some sort of grand loremaster is so pretentious to me. And then his fans so willingly take after him even with how abusive he can be.




I also don't think some of his more esoteric stuff even fits with TES. Some of it goes way too sci-fi for me. Which is great...in other franchises. Nothing against sci-fi (in fact, I often quite enjoy it), but just don't put in TES. One of the many things I love about TES is it isn't cookie-cutter fantasy, but you don't need to throw in insanely nonsensical fantasy stuff or sci-fi to keep it that way.


Everytime I think about this topic, I don't know who pisses me off more: Kirkbride or his legion of crazy fans. End rant.

Posted by: monkeyemoness Feb 12 2019, 10:40 PM

The fact that MK is such a controversial figure in the TES community is the reason I was hesitant to bring it up at all at first lol, let alone receipts of his terrible behavior

Personally, I always saw the sci-fi stuff being the natural outcome of a High Fantasy world where mages are also basically scientists. (The irony is that the most steampunk, anti-magic race in the setting practiced the magic that would work the LEAST with our scientific method.)

I think it's just a matter of perspective. Like whether you see Pelinal as an android or not, he IS a magical construct created by the gods. A gay, time-traveling, genocidaly racist magical construct with powers that could be described as either "lasers" or "killing light".

Of course I may be biased, given that I like the idea of magic and science mingling, lol

Posted by: RaderOfTheLostArk Feb 13 2019, 02:22 AM

Good point, my bad. Didn't mean to go on a mini rant like that.

Anyway, I don't mind some intermingling of fantasy and sci-fi. The Dwemer lore is cool, and the Battlespire has a little bit of sci-fi elements too. Those combinations were done in unique and interesting ways that still managed to fit the world. I'm sure there is some other stuff that I am missing.

But I like it in moderation. Voidships are a bit much, TV-headed Khajiit riding moonbikes or whatever it was in c0da are a no-go for me, and Pelinal being a cyborg from the 9th era...that's over the top, IMO. But for those who like it, by all means enjoy it.

Posted by: monkeyemoness Feb 14 2019, 09:49 PM

Gonna be honest, I don't think I ever really read through c0da in its entirety, especially when I learned it was a roundabout and self-felatiating way to introduce the concept of "headcanon" to the apparently stunted lore community. So I honestly can't really comment on much on the type of things that showed up in it lol

But yeah, I think for the most part the sci-fi elements are worked into the setting pretty well, mostly because the writers seem to take the fantasy elements into account and have them work together.

Like the Imperial Mothships, for example. It would be weird if they were widely used, considering MUCH more efficient methods of cross plane(tary) travel exists in the setting. But they aren't, because they are horribly inefficient. Who needs em?

'Course, if ESO's Summerset is any indication, they seem to be shying away from ever using it again, which is awful. I'm focusing more on the terrible excuses one of the devs brought up for it, though, so it might not actually be the consensus

Posted by: Darkness Eternal Mar 10 2019, 10:18 PM

Recent news: we have a new writer. Leamon Tuttle.

https://mobile.twitter.com/TESOnline/status/1103372703753555970

“[Tuttle] has been working on the ESO team for 8+ years and has spent 6 years designing content for the game. He was the principal writer on both Clockwork City and Murkmire. We are very excited to have him move into this role!”

Posted by: monkeyemoness Mar 11 2019, 12:59 AM

Yep, them's the guy that was "apprenticed" to Lawrence Schick. I actually can't remember if there was official word of him being promoted before that announcement, lol, but there were plenty of rumors about it. (I also didn't know he also did Murkmire)

As I said before, I'm sure he'll do well. Both the Clockwork City and Murkmire had some of the best lore in the whole game so far (and a superior depiction of Sotha Sil compared to subsequent appearances...)

Posted by: monkeyemoness Mar 26 2019, 01:43 AM

*cries in Ta'agra*

Sweet Babby Alfiq, the gentle face on the Senche-raht, and the big Cathay-raht in the background. (Someone mentioned a Dagi-raht, too, but I haven't seen it)

I need..........................
More Khajiit lore

Posted by: monkeyemoness Apr 17 2019, 11:56 PM

*continues to sob joyously*

That said, there's marked lack of Ohmes Khajiit. I hope it's just because of the risk of confusing them with Bosmer and not because they won't show up.

Posted by: RaderOfTheLostArk Oct 4 2019, 06:35 AM

The Green Pact is so [censored] stupid.

I'm not talking about it being in the lore per se. The actual pact is so damn absurd and unreasonable. I mean, a Bosmer that follows the Green Pact accidentally snaps a twig on the ground and suddenly the forest and Y'ffre rain fury upon them and even other Bosmer pact followers that had nothing to do with it? Okay, so the twig example hasn't actually happened, but it wouldn't surprise me if that were to happen in the lore.

I had been thinking on this for a while going through Valenwood content, but doing the quest for Karthdar in Grahtwood really just added fuel to the fire. It's the quest where you have to decide between whether a Khajiit or a spinner or a spinner's wife were responsible for cutting a sacred flower (or at least shared most of the blame), with the forest and its creatures retaliating against them in turn. Nevermind the fact that it isn't entirely clear who is responsible, but everything about the quest kind of pissed me off and I almost abandoned the quest because I hated it. The Khajiit is just trying to make a living and obviously isn't a follower of the Green Pact since he isn't a Bosmer. But the spinner's wife had just been on death's doorstep with how sick she was recently, and the spinner was desperately searching for a cure, which apparently came from that sacred flower.

So because the spinner desperately wanted to cure his wife and the wife really needed and wanted the plant's curative properties, one of them deserves to die because they broke the Green Pact that one time? And apparently any Bosmer that violate the Green Pact after agreeing to it can potentially spend an eternity in torment because of even one minor incident? You got to be [censored] kidding me. Seriously, Y'ffre can't every once in a while be lenient? And even if they are repeat offenders, is it really enough to merit years upon years of torment, possibly without end? [censored] out of here with that [censored]!

*Deep breath* It also doesn't help that this past week saw Cincy just plow through Valenwood content. He and I are absolutely sick of seeing these damn forests. We took the first ticket out of Valenwood as soon as he got the last skyshard in Valenwood (and by extension, the Dominion).

...

Anyway, thank you for coming to my TED talk. Thoughts?

Posted by: Acadian Oct 4 2019, 01:24 PM

Thoughts? I agree that the Green Pact is absurdly unacceptable. Walk through the forest without squashing a blade of grass? Clearly a concept conceived by someone who has never walked through a forest. Eat only meat – like deer that eat plants so eating plants secondhand is okay? It does break down to somewhat absurd rather easily. And it certainly presents some infuriating dilemmas as you have encountered.

So. . . we 'adjusted' things for 'Buffy Lore'.

As you know, the forests of Valenwood are ‘alive’. Long ago many Bosmeri tribes made the familiar Green Pact with Yffre for protection. So the Green Pact as we know it does exist and is followed by a fair number of tribes in Buffy's world. However. . . .

Buffy is descended from a clan of tribes known as ‘Clouddancers’. They are so known because each of these tribes is spiritually linked to their own massive graht oak which provides their home. Clouddancers are well adapted for treetop life at elevations where they can literally dance among the clouds. They are smaller than most Bosmer and lightly built which helps them move easily and safely among high fragile branches. Rather than Yffre, Clouddancers have always turned to the Mother of Nirn (Mara) and the Sky Goddess (Kynareth/Kyne) for assistance in living with the forest.

Clouddancers are taught to venerate the forest and use its bounty as they need to without waste. They are under no mandate to avoid using either flora or fauna that the forest so graciously provides. They generally say a prayer over successful hunting kills, wishing the animal’s spirit a safe journey until it someday returns to the forest. They further honor any animal they hunt by fully utilizing all parts of it. Because of their special relationship with the massive graht oaks of Valenwood, these trees readily grow and provide for many of their specific needs ranging from living pods to precisely grown small branches which can be readily crafted into arrows and bows.


As far as the forest itself, Buffy adores Valenwood. As she moves through it, she feels as if the forest itself is wrapping itself around her, protecting her and helping to mask her movement. I’ve noticed she gets a similarly comforting feeling when moving though swamp lands like Shadowfen or Murkmire.

Posted by: SubRosa Oct 4 2019, 05:22 PM

I think the Green Pact was invented by people who had no idea what living in the forest is like. You need wood for the simplest of things, like the handles for your axes, or the shafts of your arrows, or for that matter, for your bows themselves. With no toilet paper, leaves are the wiping instrument of choice. Not to mention that hunter-gatherers need to eat plant-based foods in order to survive, hence the 'gatherer' part of the title. Very few societies manage to subsist totally on animal based foods. Those typically need the sea, or great herds of horses, cattle, or other such animals. Neither works for the deep woods of Valenwood.

So I tossed the Green Pact out the window in my writing.

Posted by: mALX Oct 4 2019, 08:17 PM

I think the Green Pact was thrown into TES Lore as a kind of dig at the fanatics in our world (fanaticism in general) = to show how utterly inane they can get if they carry their beliefs beyond a reasonable point.

For instance: In Grahtwood you can run across a Green Pact fanatic who is going to murder a Khajiit for picking a flower. The Khajiit is not in the Green Pact; and not part of that belief system; but the Green Pact guy is going to kill him anyway.

(It is a random encounter in the game).

Anyway; it ends by giving the Player the choice to either kill the Khajiit or talk the fanatic Green Pact guy out of killing him (which can be done, it is what I always do when I come across that random encounter with one of my characters).

Posted by: haute ecole rider Oct 7 2019, 01:27 AM

Actually even the Bosmer themselves realize how ridiculous the Green Pact is.

That random encounter in Grahtwood you speak of, mALX? I chose the Bosme’s side once, only to have him say he only wanted to scare the Khajiit.

So the Green Pact is ritualistic only, not literal, in my world.