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Posted by: Lady Saga Feb 23 2013, 02:43 AM

I am having trouble with this one, and need some ideas. Why does your character drink blood? Why do they feed?

In Oblivion, becoming a Stage 4 vampire caused the majority of NPCs to be repulsed by our characters. They technically did not have to feed, but at least once the feeding was done, the NPCs stopped recognizing that our chars were vampires. This essentially gave our characters a reason to feed, at least.

But in Skyrim, this is no longer so (assuming Dawngurd is installed). The NPCs treat our characters with mild suspicion at best, but going from Stage 1 to Stage 4 does not actually cause any wanton sorts of behavior from the world.

So why does your character need to feed? What RP ideas have you all come up with?

Posted by: Destri Melarg Feb 23 2013, 03:26 AM

I'll play.

None of my characters have treated vampirism as anything but a disease to cure, like rockjoint or ataxia. But something that Darkness Eternal said when we were debating the morality of vampirism has stuck in my mind, and I plan to use it whenever I decide to go with a character who succumbs to vampirism. What he said (much better than I’m about to) was that beyond stage four the lack of feeding begins to play upon the vampire’s mind. The idea of losing one’s mind must be incredibly terrifying for the vampire, because we are talking about falling into madness for all eternity!

Think about the razor’s edge that your vampire has to walk. She (i’m assuming) has to hold onto her humanity because, to paraphrase http://cdn.mos.totalfilm.com/images/k/kirk-lazarus-00-650-75.jpg

Going ‘full vampire’ means losing oneself to the monster. Yet holding onto that humanity is what keeps her from feeding because she knows that the act is morally wrong which, of course, brings her closer to the monster the longer she abstains. What she begins to understand is that the monster is her truth, and that truth can only be held at bay by feeding. At that point she is able to justify feeding because it protects those she comes into contact with from the feral vampire clawing to come out.

Posted by: Kiln Feb 23 2013, 03:38 AM

If you want to really roleplay a vampire then you can simply keep this in mind: Traditional vampires need to feed on blood or else they get weak, degenerate, and ultimately die.

This isn't actually reflected in Skyrim game mechanics though so basically the only reason to feed is if you want to.

Posted by: SubRosa Feb 23 2013, 04:05 AM

I used a mod that reversed the stages, so that the longer you went between feedings, the weaker you became. It also allowed you to become hated in spite of Dawnguard, and let you pick if it was at stage 1 or stage 4. I set it up so Helregin was hated within 24 hours of feeding. And since feeding made her more powerful, that was pretty much all the time.

She did not drink blood so much because she needed it for sustenance (though I RP'ed that was true), but rather for the power. She was drunk upon it, the more she had, the more she wanted. It was only meeting Serana that made her realize she was completely out of control, just a step away from becoming that beast which Destri spoke of. She eased up after that, though of course never completely stopped.

Posted by: Lady Saga Feb 23 2013, 04:16 AM

Damn I want that mod, SubRosa!

I like the other ideas, too. I just think I'll have a hard time roleplaying them. But I will try to implement something. Some sort of rule. Right now my vampire just kinda casually feeds whenever she feels like, if the opportunity is there. She's a casual vampire, which I don't really like.

...maybe I'll see if I can just un-install Dawnguard for Mycharonna's game. Problem is I think on xbox, this means I'd have to buy the DLC all over again.

Thanks everyone!

Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Feb 23 2013, 04:20 AM

Once it's bought, you can re-install it at any time. You're good. Just don't try to buy it on another gamer profile.

Posted by: Lady Saga Feb 23 2013, 05:14 AM

Really? SWEET! wow, I'm gonna see if I can do this right now!!!!

Posted by: Grits Feb 23 2013, 05:15 AM

I like the tension that results from the game’s system. Not feeding leads to more power and less humanity, while the monstrous act of feeding makes the vampire appear and feel more like a mortal. Sadly the Stage 4 hostility is gone with Dawnguard, but I don’t let my vampires make trades or have important quest interactions with mortals unless they have recently fed. So mine feed to pass as mortals and also in Nivoniel’s case to recapture what she felt before she turned. Niv cured herself as soon as she learned how. (And then died. For keeps.)

I have a vampire who lives in a blood-starved state because she doesn’t want to feed. She wears a cowl with a mask to conceal her yucky features. I think DE’s idea that the prolonged hunger would cause insanity is a good one. It would inject some conflict into Venja’s life and make her a lot more interesting. Or it might cause her to jump into a volcano. You know, since taking a long sunlit walk is no longer the way to end it all. Venja has never heard anyone mention a cure.

My other vampire Selvyn (also deceased) fed because he liked it. He did not intend to become a vampire. It was kind of an impulse decision when a vampire suggested he never needed to fear death again. He thought being a vampire would be gross but worth it. Once turned he discovered that his tastes had changed. Gross did not have the same meaning. And also being fearless in the face of death does nothing to prevent it. Oops.

So Niv fed to keep her mortal feelings, Venja might feed to retain her sanity, and Selvyn fed because blood was his chocolate. Hope that helps.

Posted by: Darkness Eternal Feb 23 2013, 08:08 AM

You cannot base your character's motives just on game mechanics alone. Dawnguard took away stage 4 hostility for a number of reasons, and I do believe it had to do with the massive uproar on the official Bethesda forums regarding vampire lore. I know, since 99% of my topics and posts were all about werewolves&vampires.

In vanilla Skyrim, the gameplay mechanics were just like Oblivion. Feed and you weren't recognized. Don't feed and you're known for a vampire. The only exception is that people attacked you. Lore wise, only the vampires in Cyrodiil have the ability to blend in because of a pact they made with Clavicus Vile. Which explains why they can walk among mortals and even become politicians! Yikes!

In Skyrim, it's sort of contradictory since the higher leveled vampire NPC's are dubbed "Volkihar", which are not the same clan as the Cyrodiilic ones. Additionally, Movarth Piquine is in the game and he was bitten by a Cyrodiilic vampire. I can't tell you how many topics this was posted in the forums, and I believe I might have been the first one to post it as soon as I saw this guy around Morthal .

Long story short, Bethesda tried to fix lore by revamping vampires(no pun) and taking away their human-like appearance. They also took away stage 4 hostility and added some more lore to the native vampire clan.

There are a number of reasons why.

1.Either they slip into a coma after a long time without feeding(don't even count game mechanics into this, they are irrelevant).



2. They risk losing their sanity and survival.



and



and




3. Discretion.



When they say "maintain supple appearance," they mean feed until you look identical to a mortal. To the point of being indistinguished from a normal person. No way to tell the difference. The quote was taken from http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Manifesto_Cyrodiil_Vampyrum ingame book which states the tenets of the Cyrodiilic vampires.

RP-wise, my characters Draken and Raven feed because they know how prejudice mortals can be and how fearful they are. They understand that in order to manipulate and control the masses they must assume the position of a mortal rather than a blood-sucking vampire.

Raven is more politically gifted. She feeds because she is always in the company of nobles, politicians and government officials and dukes and princes, etc. She was born a vampire and she grew up knowing nothing more than how to live her life as one. And feeding to her is just like eating to a person, except is has a much more crucial and meaningful value to her century-long career of infiltrating mortal society.

Why does she stop feeding? Well, in one case she had to get her hands dirty and instead of using a pawn or a thrall to carry out her bidding she had to take out a group of necromancers that were aware of her condition. And to make matters worse, they knew her personaly and were a threat to her secret identity as a vampire. She forgoes feeding, storms their location in the dead of night and well, does what she's good at. She knows she's at her most powerful there and in a cavern, where no witnesses would live to tell the tale, she shows her true colors.

She also feeds because she has a sharper mind when she does. She can negotiate. She won't be worrying about taking a chunk out of someone's throat while she's moving the pieces across the board game. She's part of the High Council and she's loved by the people. If she even showed her fangs once, she knows she would be hunted down relentessly for being what she is. A predator at the top of the food chain. It's as simple as that to her. In her mind, feeding is what keeps her "alive" per se.

Draken, on the other hand, feed because that's just his way of life. It's the whole "I was born a vampire. I will always be a vampire. I will feed as a vampire. It's my nature. Don't like it, don't care."

He's more of a military and influential type of fellow. Charismatic figure by day, dark Molag Bal virgin-sacrificing cultist by night. If he is blood-starved, he does it to go on a supreme power-trip against his foes in clandestine warfare far from society.

Feeding habits: They aren't as messy as those clowns in Castle Volkihar. The Cyrodiilic vampires saw how the Whet-Fang put their cattle comatose and harvest blood from them, and they even did the same with the Deepscorn Hollow prisoner in the Cattle Cell. Raven and Draken, being high ranking members of the Order Vampyrum in Cyrodiil, kidnapped beggars, plucked criminals from prisoners and jails, orphan children and placed them in underground blood-farms or cattle cells where they could easily travel through Cyrodiil and feed from their own source of blood without drawing too much attention. Why kill their prey when you can safely take blood from a donor who is forever sleeping peacefully? Better than going through the hassle of seducing, feeding and possibly dumping the body out in the woods.

Posted by: Darkness Eternal Feb 23 2013, 02:29 PM

A simple speculation here:

Vampires can go into a deep sleep for a long period of time. This is fact. I am inclined to believe that they must forgo drinking blood for awhile to go through this process. Again, it's not concrete fact but by seeing different scenarios in lore, we can only assume. We know that vampires can sleep off for centuries or even thousands of years like our dear Serana.

-Legions of the Dead.

It is possible that Rona Hassildor, rejecting the blood potions from Mina(The Pale Lady) was getting for her, willingly slipped into a coma so she wouldn't have to live as a vampire. Hence the

The only way to bring back one of these long-dormant vampires is by magic or maybe even by blood(ever wondered why your characters gets his/her hand stabbed through with that spike right before freeing Serana? Your character's blood must have been the first blood she's tasted in over a millenia, which explains one of the many reasons she might be so attached.

RP-wise, my kids Draken and Raven willingly go comatose when stuff has hit the fan. Badly. Only under urgent irreversable circumstances do they leave the world and return centuries later to try again, though they aren't always pleased how the world has changed since then. Ehem, Thalmor supremacy and Empire's fall anyone?

Posted by: Lady Saga Feb 24 2013, 11:50 PM

Thanks to all and especially to you, DE, wow you sure know your lore. I'm gonna pore over all that literature in more detail over these next few days.

I would still prefer the old system, I want Mycharonna recognized and feared once she makes Stage 4, and I haven't been able to figure out how to un-install Dawnguard entirely without deleting it from the Xbox, so I'm kinda stuck there. Then again, not feeding does make our vampires weaker when the sun is out, and this gives (at least) some sort of motive to feed, beyond pure RP. Although Mycharonna does not travel by daylight, the thought that she could be exterminated if we somehow get careless is something to consider.

Yes! This is one thing Mycharonna occasionally does: she'll find somewhere to clamber up into and hide for days. Serana also was in limbo for quite awhile (you'll see what i mean, if you haven't met her yet).

I also like to think that Mycharonna can fly (not as a bat, but as a humanoid) and can turn into vapor at will, but for her to do these things she must have at least an hour to transform (no enemies about).

Anyways, thanks!

Posted by: Darkness Eternal Feb 27 2013, 12:32 AM

Interesting. Yeah, Raven can shift into a cloud of bats without going hideous vampire lord form. I am quite sure Molag Bal wouldn't limit that ability to the vampire lord, but then again, it seems that only form is the only one able to tap in ancient Night Powers of Blood Magic just like werewolves of certain lineages can tap in natural energies before magic was even known to be magic.

Posted by: Lady Saga Feb 27 2013, 03:52 AM

So I figured out there's another way to feed! I don't wanna say because I don't wanna introduce spoilers, but l like this other way better! ... It's a little more involved than feeding on a sleeping NPC. I'd still prefer a little more drama, but at least there is a second option.

Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Feb 27 2013, 03:59 AM

i know what it is

Posted by: Lady Saga Mar 4 2013, 12:15 AM

Hah! I figured out how to do this, finally. It's not as obvious as it is on PS3. I am talking about re-installing deleted DLC content without paying for it again. Anyways, Mycharonna happens to be Stage 4 (I think) so I'm looking forward to some fearful/angry NPCs!

One thing that's strange: after ditching Dawnguard for her game, she passed by a wolf, and it howled. I've never heard a wolf howl in my Xbox games before (they howl in my PS3 games, though). Wonder if Dawnguard takes away wolves howling?

Posted by: SubRosa Mar 4 2013, 12:27 AM

It does not do that on the PC.

Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Mar 4 2013, 12:30 AM

My wolves still howl, even with Dawnguard on there.

Posted by: King Of Beasts Mar 4 2013, 12:31 AM

I heard wolves howl before the dawnguard plug in

Maybe it was a glitch.

Posted by: Lady Saga Mar 4 2013, 12:35 AM

That is weird. They never howled before, now they do constantly. Mycharonna just encountered a pack of 3 pit wolves near one of her homes, and they were all howling in unison. I love it!

On the other hand, she passed thru Riverwood, and nobody seemed to notice she's Stage 4. Nothing really happened out of the ordinary. She's definitely S4, too, she's got 100% weakness to fire.

Edit: He heh so I have no idea why she could pass through Riverwood and Whiterun hold without any probs, but once she made it to Dawnstar the guards and NPCs were attacking her on sight! She's never been up in this area of Skyrim before, so there's no way it's because of a bounty! I guess it took awhile before the game recognizes a Stage 4 vamp as an instant enemy.

This is gonna be tricky. She's going to need to sneak into Dawnstar, and then find a sleeping NPC to feed on. The NPC will have to be sleeping because removing Dawnguard from Mycharonna's game also caused that 'other' way of feeding to be non-useable.

Posted by: King Of Beasts Mar 4 2013, 03:53 AM

Because

Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Mar 4 2013, 04:09 AM

Snuggles randomly decided to start howling XD

Posted by: Lady Saga Mar 4 2013, 02:00 PM

You missed what I wrote earlier, but that's okay.

I disabled Dawnguard for my vampire's game, which means. This did not initially happen while she was in Whiterun, but it did happen later on when she made it to Dawnstar.

Posted by: Darkness Eternal Mar 6 2013, 02:49 AM

So I am writing some new chapters in my vampire story and I came to a sort of an issue here. One of my characters is a Daughter of Coldharbour. I wanted to write about the nature of the ritual in detail but I am totally stuck here.

Serana mentioned it was degrading, but what exactly happened other than her being profaned by Molag? We know that it is vampiric tradition for the cult to surrender their females to Molag Bal to become pureblooded the same way the progenitor was.

But, what gets me is that Molag Bal likes to see his followers strong. And not just in the manner of being subjugated. I wonder. Did Serana ever to anything degrading herself?

The ritual is more or less like how Lamae was turned. This is from the lore book.

So, Molag raped her. Okay.

Then there is this:



Lamae died from her injuries. Survived and emeged as a pureblooded vampire, and then went on a bloody rampage. But what Serana says makes me wonder. Is there more to the ritual than being a Daedric Lord's toy?



Her dialogue on marriage is something for concern. She refuses to marry because she can't accept the gods blessing because of how she lived and what she had done. Her status as a worshiper of Molag Bal and one of the cult members may be one of the reasons, and of course, her need to feed and survive. But I do wonder if she also had to ravage a few men, devour the eyes of infants and rip out the throats of women to prove that she is also "powerful in her own right". So maybe she had to be dominated and then had to dominate. Hard. As mentioned before, perhaps a lot of emotional, physical and evensexual pain involved which explains her whole family being the way they are. But that's another story altogether.

What do you guys think?

Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Mar 6 2013, 03:24 AM

I think it's entirely possible she was required to assert her (or what Molag-bal sees as) strength in order to be found worthy of becoming a pureblood.

A Daedric Lord like Molag-bal isn't going to take a follower that shows mercy, because he himself shows none.

The fun thing about the lore is that where we have questions, we are allowed to fill in the blanks. I would find it acceptable to see that Serena DID have to...do those things... in order to gain Molag-Bal's favor. I find it believable.

Posted by: Lady Saga Mar 7 2013, 06:20 PM

I think you are definitely onto something, and your theories are the best I've ever read, for sure.

Like Miss Hollow seems to suggest, the whole Serana thing is open for interpretation, but I haven't really thought of any of this on my own. I'm not so good with lore and theorizing about it.

Posted by: SubRosa Mar 7 2013, 09:25 PM

I think it is the all too common cycle of how the abused often grows up to become an abuser themself. The trauma associated with their abuse so damages their ability to express love or other tender emotions, that when they do try to do so instead it is warped into an act of violence.

I am reminded of the descent of Kore into the Underworld, where she is raped by Hades. There are many differing versions of the story, and ways to cast the characters. The one that feels most valid to me is that Hades was the odd man out among his brothers, Zeus and Poseidon. After the three defeated their dad and split up rulership of the Cosmos between them, Hades really got the raw end of the deal. He gets stuck in the Underworld tending the dead. Where his brothers get lavish temples built to them, and people lining up to worship them, no one wants anything to do with Hades. He never gets even one temple built to him anywhere. He is a pariah among gods.

Spending eternity in a cave with a bunch of ghosts, he has no experience in forming relationships with others, or in dealing with the feelings he has for them. So when he does try to pull of what he doubtlessly imagines/hopes will be a romantic seduction of the pure virgin girl who captured his heart, instead he kidnaps and rapes her. Because all he knows about expressing himself is through acts of violence. Afterward he makes Kore - now Persephone - his queen, and gives her equal rulership over the dead. So Hades himself really is not the thoughtless brute he might appear to be. Unlike his brother Zeus who raped and dumped just about every other woman in the world. Hades wants to be a better man, but he has never had the opportunity to learn how.

Posted by: Destri Melarg Mar 7 2013, 09:50 PM

As our resident expert in all things vampiric, I think you already know the answer that you are looking for. For the ritual to be true to what Lamae experienced you must have both the initial subjugation, and the subsequent domination.

I haven’t played Dawnguard yet, but I have read and seen enough to know that Serana’s reasons for refusing marriage hint at a certain degree of shame even as she tells the player that her vampirism is a ‘gift.‘ If she sees her own rape as a gift bestowed upon her, then what exactly does she feel shame about? It’s not her status as a worshipper of Molag Bal, nor is it her vampiric condition. I would submit that she fell to her base desires and fulfilled her own bloodlust in a matter befitting her progenitor, yet she retains enough of her humanity to be shamed by her own actions.


Is this your way of hinting that maybe Molag Bal just wants to be loved?

Posted by: Darkness Eternal Feb 27 2015, 03:31 AM

By the necomantic powers I hereby revive this thread from the dead! 💀💀

So we now why your characters drink blood. I want to know if your vampire characters has any idea, knowledge or understanding or doubts about his or her afterlife? In the ES afterlives vary. Nightingales sell their souls for Nocturnal, Redguards to the Far Shores, Khajiits to some sugar-dune realm, lycanthropes to the Hunting Grounds, Nords to Sovgarde, mad people to Sheogoraths Looney Nut-House... And so on so forth. Though race doesn't guarantee a certain afterlife, the general belief is this. There's also the Dreamsleeve.

I've often wondered what the price was for immortality. For a vampire who made a pact with Molag Bal, whose realm is the enslavement of mortals and who's Prince holds no contrition to who ventures there, willingly or no. Surely, I've asked myself, a Daughter of Coldharbour would go to such place for performing and undergoing that horrific ritual as the name itself implies. Also what of men who sacrificed a large amount of people for such "gift", like Lord Harkon, who became a vampire by killing and sacrificing them for Molag Bal. can't imagine the horrors they're facing in Oblivion since their souls were hijacked. That is a huge moral no-no. Not counting the centuries he had to feed and kill people.... Reading an Ingame book, my question was answered. Here a quote from it:


"Other species of vampires are the result of pacts and bargains with Molag Bal, who answers promises of immortality and power with an eternity of damnation. Molag Bal seeds chaos and strife, spreading discord by corrupting soul after soul. His forces are legion; his patience is limitless; his ultimate goal is the domination and enslavement of all living things."

So, Harkon is in trouble. His cell mate, Molag Bal. This is for vampires who made bargains with him. Now what about turned and infected ones? By accident? Do they get a different fate or are they, like lycanthropes, doomed for eternity whether they like it or not? What about vampieres who forsake Bal and sided with Lamae Beolfag who has them defile a sacred symbol of the Daedric Lord as a requirement for membership? And ultimately, what does your character believe he or she will go?

Posted by: Acadian Feb 27 2015, 04:04 AM

Vampiric afterlife? Not sure, except that Buffy's generally happy to help them get to wherever that is.

Seriously, I'd like to imagine it can vary. In Oblivion, five of Azura's followers killed the ancient vampire Dratik and his kin holed up in Gutted Mine. In the process though, all five were infected. Azura sealed them up in the mine until her Slayer came along to give them the freedom of death. Buffy would like to think that somehow their spirits reside eternally with Azura, just as the five candles Azura placed above her shrine in their honor burn eternally.

Posted by: mALX Feb 27 2015, 04:54 AM

I have to agree with BoBo Acadian - I think the variables in the beginning and duration of their vampirism would effect where and how their eternity would be spent.

Posted by: Destri Melarg Feb 27 2015, 08:56 AM

Interesting thought. Azura had the power to transform an entire race of elves and all of their progeny through the ages. It is not unreasonable to think that he/she/it could reclaim five souls from the fires of Coldharbour.

My opinion (and I stress that it is my opinion) on the subject comes down on the opposite end of the spectrum. I feel that a vampire gives up his/her ‘mortality’ through the act of transformation... voluntarily or otherwise. Once transformed the vampire is already undead, quite literally a reanimated corpse. ‘Afterlife‘ for such an individual begins the moment he/she awakens to his/her new form and does not end even when the vampire is claimed by Oblivion.

I admit to the glaring flaw in that argument which is the fact that even stage four vampirism can be cured. But let’s face it, Bethesda has never really been rock solid in the logic department. The lore surrounding the Nightingales, for example, makes no sense whatsoever. Why must I be bound to protect a sepulcher that is absent a corpse? The idea that I must protect the entrance to the Evergloam falls apart when one realizes just how many mortals have made the journey to steal Nocturnal’s sacred trinkets through the ages. Seriously, the place must have a revolving door by now!

Posted by: ghastley Feb 27 2015, 01:55 PM

My take is that Nocturnal is the patron of Thieves, so she wants her stuff stolen. It has to be by the right kind of thieves, though, so she needs an appropriate level of guard to test the ones who attempt it. The Cowl, the Skeleton Key, the Bow of Shadows and the Eye have all had their characteristics altered over the ages to suit the thief she's trying to lure in. Sometimes they've been given away as rewards, sometimes they've had to be stolen directly, and the case of the cowl and the curse in Oblivion, and the Skeleton Key in Skyrim, Nocturnal's plans haven't always worked, at least initially.

Posted by: Acadian Feb 27 2015, 03:04 PM

I love the last four posts! Such a wonderful example of how Buffy and mALX think with their heart, as Destri and ghastley think with their head. I pay attention to such things, for Buffy and I struggle with it - my inclination is to favor an analytical approach to most situations, but Buffy will have nothing to do with that in favor of the emotional approach every time.

Posted by: ghastley Feb 27 2015, 03:23 PM

Getting back to the question: for vampires, it will depend on how they got it. If they traded their allegiance for the extended life, they get what they bargained for. If they were infected, no change - Nords to Sovngarde, if still worthy after being a vampire, of course.

A lich, and they're still around in Skyrim as the dragon priests, doesn't happen accidentally, so they've made their choice (whatever that was).

And you need to throw in a bit of Daedric mischief into the formula. All of them will steal from the others when they get the chance, so a vampire is not necessarily tied to Molag Bal, if another Daedric Prince sees an opportunity. I could imagine a vampire becoming a Nightingale, and being Nocturnal's after death.

Posted by: Grits Feb 27 2015, 04:06 PM

I’ve always thought that a vampire is bound to the daedric prince regardless of how they got infected, so their afterlife will be in that prince’s realm. The Skyrim ritual to cure vampirism requires a filled black soul gem. I take that to be an exchange for their own soul which is marked for Coldharbor.

Daedric trickery is a vampire’s way out. In Oblivion we saw Azura preserve her accidentally vampire followers in the cave until she could claim them at their deaths when her new champion came through, or at least that’s how I took the eternal candles at her shrine. I may be mistaken but I think that in Skyrim becoming a werewolf by drinking Aela’s blood cures your vampirism, which I take as Hircine gleefully snatching your soul from Molag Bal’s clutches. A werewolf can escape Hircine by becoming a vampire via the pureblooded Serana, but of course then they’re on Molag Bal’s roster.

My Skyrim vampire characters have all believed that their afterlife would be in Coldharbor. The reluctant vampires have either cured themselves with the ritual or lived isolated in a blood-starved state as long as possible to avoid it. The willing ones looked forward to remaining themselves in Molag Bal’s realm rather than dying mortal and taking the chance of maybe entering a realm of Aetherius with their consciousness intact or losing their individuality entirely in the Dreamsleeve.

I like the uncertainty. It gives my characters a lot to think about.

Posted by: SubRosa Feb 27 2015, 07:19 PM

I have always been in the same camp as Grits. Vampires are Molag Bal's bitches. The same with Werewolves and Hircine. That is why lycanthropy and vampirism are curses. Whether you were infected willingly or not, in the end you are nothing but one more victim of a Daedric Prince. That is one of the reasons neither really appealed to me in the ES-verse. I prefer to play characters who find their own power within themselves, not those who final destination is to be the sock-puppet of an unearthly force.

Acadian brings up a good point about Azura's followers in Gutted Mine. I also had the impression that she took the souls of her five followers after their final slayage. That can be chalked up to Destri's sage pointing out of Bethesda's unfailing ability to remain inconsistent with their own lore. Or it could be that once you put your soul up on the market - either by choice or unfortunate circumstance - it is thence forth an item to bartered or stolen by whatever divine force gets their mitts upon it. Whereby Azura could wrest the souls of those five away from Molag, or Hircine could swipe a vampire's soul after Aela puts the bite upon a fanger. It would certainly be a very fertile ground for a quest or story: The Daedra and Daniel Websternor.

Posted by: Darkness Eternal Feb 27 2015, 10:37 PM

I've thought about this initially. That their soul's final place is somehow chosen by how they live. For the undead it would seem to be the case. The ones who did horrific things to obtain the power, would sell their soul and have an eternity of torment in Oblivion . . .but I thought about Kodlak and other reluctant lycanthropes and what Grits said below.


This is a good answer. I gave all of them thought but this one. judging by what happens in the game, seems logically(and unfortunately) what happens. Each Daedric Prince, depending on the ties the mortal has, would have dibs on the person with such condition.

I see. Nice about your characters. But I ask: what does an afterlife in Coldharbour mean for some of them? We're talking about eternity here. Time has no meaning.

As for my two purebloods, they worship Molag Bal through and through and owe their existence to him. But they also revere Lamae, their blood-matron. In the end, they have knowledge, often unspoken, that their soul will go to Coldharbour. Hell, my character Raven is a Daughter of Coldharbour. The name already suggests her final destination.

Power has had a veil over her mind that she doesn't see -- or tries not to see--that her eternity will be nothing but torment and torture in many unimaginable ways. She studied ancient history. She knows the stories of Molag Bal making an attempt to pull Nirn into Coldharbour. She's read accounts of what his followers go through should they fail him and what some of his honored servants await. It has been a matter of thought that goes through her head even centuries passing. But the more power she acquires, the more blinded she is.

I'd say Molag Bal offers unimaginable power but he's the Daedric Lord that sees everything as a potential toy for torture. It doesn't matter who. He's far from being a benevolent prince.



In my honest opinion that'd be saying that most people who serve Daedric Princes are essentially their bitches. I daresay Azura, too, who imprisoned her servants in a cavern, isn't above being considered such thing; A Daedric Prince who does what he/she/it wills. Considering her being a good Daedra is a dangerous conclusion and delusion to make. She has her moments of rage and pure spite in the past and malice, too. Don't get me started on the Dark Elves... I can't imagine what she'll do to her followers if they piss her off.

What I'm saying is . . . probably anyone who serves a Daedric Prince, including Nightingales, will be a Daedric Prince's plaything. But to call this a curse would be unfair, at least for some. For vampires, I'd be inclined to agree that they're going to be Molag Bal's victims. Daughters of Coldharbour already have to give themselves up to be defiled and assaulted sexually just to become pureblooded vampires and I should say that this happens to those who survive. As Serana says, this only applies to the strong. Meaning that some people couldn't handle it and die in the process. But Azura might be a rewarding prince to serve: her past shows of ire can't compare to Molag Bal's never ending nature of enslavement and domination and rape who'll likely torture his servants in eternal in scathing rings or worst . . .

Time and time we see Hircine actually bestowing blessings on werewolves and lycanthropes, people who as we know might have trafficked with the prince or have been bitten or born with the condition. The announcement and the beginning of the Bloodmoon Hircine takes his servants--his Hounds- to hunt and blesses them with additional abilities. One such ability is the Hunter's Wind, a power that heals the hunter completely from the most troubling of wounds. Another is to summon a bonewolf as a companion to aid the person in their travels. The Savior's Hide cuirass is given to worthy hunters and said by Hircine to protect them for the world's grievances. Molag Bal blesses vampires for being purely offensive. He wouldn't grant them such things if they weren't raping virgins, murdering old men, butchering children and corrupting innocent souls and might I remind you about those scathing rings!

Serving Hircine is different. Glenmoril Witches revere him and many of them are young women who begin during adolescence. They perform sacrifices, yes, but often of their own people and voluntarily. They worship his natural side and nature in general, and as I've mentioned before twice here somewhere(I can't remember, hehe) they are reclusive and reject civilization but they make certain to enforce the laws of nature. Hircine doesn't really go about torturing them as they respect and uphold his more natural side while Reachmen prefer Hircine's vicious side. But we're going into moral beliefs, aren't we? What I'm trying to say is that Hircine's servants get better treatment than Molag Bal's servants does.

Granted, Sinding did not get good treatment when Hircine put a hunt on his head. But he stole Hircine's ring . . . and that was unsporting. In the past the ring had to be claimed by killing the wearer for whatever reason. But stealing it wasn't sporting and thus Hircine put a curse on it. There are similarities, however, between the two Princes. Hircine connects with Molag Bal in the same nature of a cure; a soul is required.

On afterlives . . . Coldharbour is a reflection of Molag Bal; cold, brutal and violent. Dark and full of pain and suffering, can be attributed to our concept of Hell. The Hunting Grounds is a huge geographical realm made up of forest and grasslands and canyons that can be compared to Native American's concept of "The Happy Hunting Grounds" where prey are endless and game is always available. I won't defend the notion that some werewolves aren't hunted there, but most hunt in a pack with Hircine and during the day werebears do as well.

Kodlak mentioned that the Hunting Grounds can be a paradise for some, they want nothing more to chase prey with Hircine forever and roam the wilderness as beasts. Some would believe brawling with Nords and drinking mead for eternity is a better way and each has their own opinion on the matter.

That being said, considering werewolves are canine, they are essentially Hircine's bitches but they get better treatment and return to Nirn once every era to hunt. There are shades to Hircine and some werewolves in lore are benevolent, seeking to focus their hunger at animals and use hunting as a "rewarding pastime" and a way to worship Hircine without harming mortals. And since they're hunting, and as long as they're hunting, Hircine wouldn't hold it against them since they accept what they are. Hunters.

Their afterlife might be on of endless hunting but if they're animals and they want nothing more? Give em what they want.

I'd take the Hunting Grounds any day than to be bent over some flaming-hot pole wielded by a cackling Molag Bal who'd seek to enslave the world and oppress people because its his nature.

My two cents!

Posted by: SubRosa Feb 27 2015, 11:23 PM

I agree. While Azura is perhaps the most benevolent of the Daedra, that does really take much, considering the rest. Being her plaything for eternity is still being an object owned by another being. Granted, better her than Molag Bal though.

Posted by: Grits Feb 27 2015, 11:34 PM

Here’s where I think how a person lives comes into play. My vampires who cured themselves or lived blood-starved would surely be or have been on the receiving end of the eternal hot pokers, since they did nothing in life to gain favor with their lord. They knew this and dreaded it enough to go through the ritual to escape their fate (filling a black soul gem was an act of almost unimaginable evil to the Bosmer Nivoniel, so in a way she damned herself with her cure) or to live in a state of voluntary exile and madness to postpone it.

The ones who live enthusiastically (if sometimes briefly) as vampires fully expect to be on the dominating team in Coldharbor, since they believe that Molag loves them. In his own way, lol. I’m sure that my vampire lord Selwyn who died like an idiot by running into a spike trap got a big surprise when Bal bent him over on his arrival in Coldharbor. I’d guess Selwyn would be among the tormented, probably scrambling to torture some of his fellow sufferers in order to improve his status and move up the ladder. My vampire pirate Captain Zanimal is ready for whatever he finds in Bal’s realm. In his unlife the Zanimal doesn’t seek power, he is power. So he’ll probably have more fun in Coldharbor than he expects.



Added: A side note with apologies to Renee since this has nothing to do with drinking blood, I find it interesting that the Aedric realms don’t always offer a reward for good living. It’s said that a Nord is not judged by how she lives but by how she dies (A Dream of Sovngarde). So the vilest Nord in Mundus could get to meet Tsun if they die bravely in battle, but the noblest hero gets a soul shower in the Dreamsleeve if they die in their sleep. Of course that’s not necessarily true, but it does explain some things about Nords.

Posted by: Destri Melarg Feb 28 2015, 12:19 AM

An elegant solution. I have heard it described in this way before. The problem arises when you remember that the Nightingales are only indigenous to Skyrim. Weebum-Na and Bejeen encountered no such sentries when they liberated the Eye in Oblivion. And there is mention of witches but there are no Nightingales present in Purloined Shadows, which is the only documented case we have of the theft of an artifact from Nocturnal. I concede that Shadows is probably a work of fiction, and one could argue that the theft of the Eye was an elaborate plan on Nocturnal's part to, as you say, lure the right kind of thief in. It still seems like Bethesda doesn't have a clear sense of what they want to do with the Daedric Princes.


I love this! I wonder what will happen should the mortal come to realize that he/she is bartering with currency they don't own. You 'soul' ostensibly 'belongs' to your creator. In effect, you're spending daddy's coin!


I humbly disagree. Lycanthropy/Sanies Lupinus and Sanguinare Vampiris/Porphyric Hemophilia are diseases, and both are treatable within three days (except for in Skyrim where you are forced to simply accept your lycanthropy).


Sorry again, Renee. Your thread seems to have gone off the rails a bit!

Posted by: BretonBlood Mar 9 2015, 04:41 PM

With my vampire characters I always tend to play them as Cyrodiilic vampires so they want to feed to remain hidden from society. I personally find the Cyrodiilic vampires the most interesting because of their deception and the way they hide in plain sight like the Count of Skingrad.

Posted by: Acadian Mar 9 2015, 05:15 PM

Welcome to the forums, BretonBlood. I see SubRosa has already christened you BB in one of our other threads.

I do like that Oblivion has the Count of Skingrad who has somehow managed to 'tame' (or at least deal with) the beast inside and actually seems to have no evil intent. Similarly, I'm pleased that the court wizard for Solitude (in Skyrim) seems to fit into the same category. Given their food source, and the resultant tension between vamps and peeps, it seems at least a couple have forged a different path.

Posted by: Renee Mar 9 2015, 11:05 PM

Welcome to Chorrol, BretonBlood, have a Fishy St--- err.. I don't think we give fishy sticks here at Chorrol. Have some cake instead.

I gotta say, now that I'm gaming on PC, I'm rather torn. I probably have the power to make vampire NPCs a lot more vulnerable to certain things, especially daylight. They attack us during the day, sometimes. I'm really not a fan of vamps simply walking around in daylight all casual-like, but whatever. I've tolerated it.

In TES4, I use Maskar's Oblivion Overhaul to make vampires take actual sun damage. I figure hey, if the Player Character can take sun damage, why not NPCs? .... Not sure if this would work in Skyrim. I mean, to some extent you gotta figure that TES is not traditional Earth lore. They do things differently in the Tamriel universe. Still though...

Posted by: BretonBlood Mar 10 2015, 03:07 AM

Thank you. One of the things I liked most about the Count of Skingrad was how he was so in control of his bloodlust and he even looked down on the other feral vampires. I love the quests that involve him, especially the one where he sends you to kill the vampires and the vampire hunters.


Thank you, I see what you did there, you did the joke that the other Bethesda forum does haha.

I love mods that affect vampires like Better Vampires for Skyrim, I can't play without it. And I have never had vampire NPCs attack me in the daylight, it has always been night or at least really close to night time around dusk, but that is rare.

I also think each vampire clan in the Tamriel universe is different as far as sun damage goes, I think only the Cyrodiilic vampires, vampires in High Rock, and the vampires in Morrowind take sun damage, while all the rest are weakened.

Posted by: mALX Mar 10 2015, 04:06 AM

I don't play as a vampire, but agree 100% on liking the idea that by drinking blood they can live amongst mortals without our knowledge (like Seridor) - imagine the possibilities for roleplay and stories!

Posted by: Destri Melarg Mar 10 2015, 06:51 AM

Here's another welcome to the forums, BretonBlood.

The thing I like about Hassildor is that, while fooling the populace of Skingrad, he's got his feral wife living wild in the catacombs under the palace. Makes for quite the juggling act and gives his character some real depth.

My personal pet peeve concerning Elder Scrolls vampires (actually all the vampires presented in fiction) has to do with how messy they are. You know… body parts strewn around, half eaten bones littering the dinner table, and blood everywhere, It's on the floor, it's on the furniture, it's on the walls, it's even on the ceiling! This is their food we're talking about here! Why is it that immortality makes you such an unrepentant slob? I enjoy a good pizza as much as anyone, but you'll never see a time when a visit to my house yields half-eaten pizza crust on the floors, or pizza sauce all over the walls!

Posted by: BretonBlood Mar 10 2015, 03:24 PM

Thank you!

I think you are confusing his wife with the Pale Lady in Skingrad. Hassildor's wife is in a coma from lack of drinking blood and that is why he wants to cure her because she refuses to drink blood and thus went into a comma. The Pale Lady is the one who takes prisoners and feeds off of them and then takes some of the blood and gives it to Hassildor's wife to keep her alive. Nonetheless, it made Hassildor that much deeper a character.

I kind of agree with you here, but I think all the instances of vampires living like this are supposed to be ones who have given into their more feral side and just kill to feed with no regard for anything else. That's how I look at it anyway.

Posted by: mALX Mar 10 2015, 04:28 PM

Like the bloodlust is so strong that they kind of go into a frenzy?

If you read Jakben Imbel's journal it says almost the same thing; that for the first 80 years he couldn't control his bloodlust; but through the centuries he had gained control of it.

Well, the game was surprisingly consistent in sticking with that journal in that all the ancient vampires in Cyrodiil (Hassildor; Vicente; Imbel; and Seridor) lived in clean places and had a social life with mortals instead of just a feral vampire clan living together in a cave or old fort.

And it works for roleplay; because the player has to socialize too; so they can either have been a vampire a long time - or the way I see it is that there is a difference between the feral vampires in caves and that ancient vampires are a lineage they can share with a person who accepts their dark gift (like Vicente offers the player); but combat with them would only pass on the disease, not the lineage (because they consider it a "gift" they wouldn't give it without their will to give it).

Anyway, that is just how I look at it. And I agree with Destri - Welcome to Chorrol!

Posted by: BretonBlood Mar 10 2015, 06:12 PM

Yep, that's how I see it, the vampires basically go into a frenzy because of their bloodlust and that's why they have no control over who they kill and what they do with the parts, which is why we see the bones and blood everywhere.

I loved readinf Jakben's journal I found it very interesting in regards to vampire lore, although I think it varies from each individual. I say this because Count Hassildor says he and his wife were infected 50 years ago and that he was able to live with the change but his wife could not. So he hasn't been a vampire that long, relatively, and yet he seems to have control over his bloodlust. Although, being the Count he basically has a steady access to blood versus most other vampires, so it may be a problem he never really had to encounter.

And thank you.

Posted by: Darkness Eternal Mar 10 2015, 07:42 PM

I'd say the messiest vampires in lore would be the Volkihar. Just look at their castle. Blood. Everywhere. Bones. Entrails. Eh . . . and they're so brazen as to their attacks. But what I enjoy about the lore regarding these dead people is that there are over a hundred different clans with their own powers, abilities, etc and even how they approach prey.

The reason I believe Hassildor, Seridur, Jakben and Lord Lovidicus(especially this guy) don't have too much of a feeding problem is that they're of that special Clavicus Vile-modified lineage. The reason I believe this is the fact that they're, well, all rich or wealthy. Either nobleman or aristocrats or earls. The Pale Lady has the looks of a noble too. Here's something interesting: "During combat, she will occasionally announce "I will feed the mistress your blood!" or "You will be sweet, bloody nectar for the lady.". "The mistress" probably means Countess Rona Hassildor, who lies in a coma caused by her refusal to satisfy the demands of her vampirism on live victims. The bottles of human blood near the Pale Lady suggest that she collects the blood of her victims to feed to the countess.

Also, is that Jakben, Seridur and Lovidicus walked right under everyone's noses without too many questions arising. Just their strange nocturnal habits, which according to their tenets, is necessary. Immortal Blood explains the Cyrodiilic Vampires as indistinguishable from ordinary mortals when well-fed. More or less like Seridur. You wouldn't believe this person was a vampire unless you saw him or her three days without blood. The symptoms would be pale hands, blue nails, gaunt face, red eyes, etc. A living dead person.

But they would never let themselves be discovered . . .because they know better. Truly if you were an immortal being who can find innovative and smart ways to sate your condition and still be able to walk around society and using your age-old resources to acquire what you need and want, would you risk discovery? Vampirism is punishable by death by the evil mortal populace.

"Our bond with Vile makes us unique among our kind, for his guidance steels our savage craving with reason and savvy. For him we live amidst mankind, and twist them to our will from offices of power.

Transcendant of savages
Sating thirst sans avarice
Your coffers stay stuffed
By social graces robust
None know your nature;
save Us
None share your fate;
save Us
None welcome you as kin;
save Us.

Given Vile's intervention they're able to hide any trace of vampirism. By, and I quote, Social graces robust. Additionally, to be a member of this Order means to be wealthy and well-known and respected.

Your coffers stay stuffed- Points to a fat Elder Scrolls bank account.

None know your nature, save us.- No one knows about the Cyrodiilic vampire's true nature, save for people who are vampires themselves. Did you know ingame Janus' disposition toward the player is 20+ is he's a vampire?

None share you fate; save us-Hmm, eternity as Clavicus Vile's plaything or Molag Bal's cellmate . . . who knows.

None Welcome you as Kin; save us- No one would welcome a vampire as family. The only family these creatures have is, well, each other.

Know first that we are no simple tribe of savages, tearing throats with the orgiastic abandon of our scattered, tribal brethren. Ours is a civil fraternity, to which we are bound - every one - by our dual hunger for flesh and influence. By the virtue of Imperial structure and bureaucracy, Cyrodiil has become our stronghold in the third era, and we suffer no savage rivals within our boundaries, reveal ourselves to none, and manipulate the hand of society to mete out our agendas.

Tribe of savages? Tearing throats with violence and brutality? I'm looking straight at you Harkon and all you other Volkihar! See, these vampires are more civil. You'd first think an Interview with a Vampire. Wealthy, charismatic, civilized. The mention of Cyrodiil becoming a stronghold in the third era means they're not native to Cyrodiil. They must have came in, kicked all the native clan's asses to Coldharbour and infiltrated society as wealthy entrepreneurs and bureaucrats. Imagine of one these guys in the High Council!

To patron Clavicus Vile, beacon o'er our affairs, we owe our successes and social stature. Our bond with Vile makes us unique among our kind, for his guidance steels our savage craving with reason and savvy. For him we live amidst mankind, and twist them to our will from offices of power.

What price they gave Vile for this, I can't say. But the reason why they can masquerade as normal mortals and go about as wolves in a nice sheep's clothing is because of Clavicus Vile. He also seemed to curb their blood-hunger, too, to a small degree. Not needing more than necessary unless they go days starving.


Most barbaric tribes think themselves powerful by the gift of Bal's blood alone, and squander the gift. There are those, however, who show signs of enlightenments, and earn our attention - those such as Glenmoril Wyrd, who live within the walls of Breton cities, or the Whet-Fang sodality of Black Marsh, who use magicka to keep captives catatonic and harvest from them the red nectar. These foes may one day threaten to impugn our sovereignty within the boundaries of Cyrodiil, thus compelling our vigilance. Should any encroach upon our dominion, our wrath must be swift and total.

While superior in some ways, it doesn't mean they can't learn a thing or two from other clans. In the Vile Lair download made for vampiric characters, there is a catatonic prisoner that the player can feed. He'll never awaken. They might have learned from the Black Marsh clan, the Whet Fang. Why? Well, the ingame book with these tenets came along with the Vile Lair and also the vampire home is bordering Black Marsh . . . I even wrote some part of my fanfiction in which my male vampire began building subterranean cattle cells for when members of his clan pass through and require some rest and to feed before going out to attend to mortal affairs while also lowering the mortal death toll that would raise eyebrows and launch an investigation.

To preserve our ideals and way of life, two primary edicts shall be observed. Above all, reveal thyself and our Order to no other, for discretion is the greatest of our virtues. Do not feed where you may be found out, or on those who may not suspect your passing. Avoid daylight by lifestyle; dispel common belief in our kind, and maintain supple appearance through satisfaction of the thirst. Second, devote your pursuits to the procurement of influence, political and otherwise. Our strength is not in physical numbers, but in skillful manipulation of society. Always be mindful of our Patrons, and preserve the Order. Devote yourself to these ideals always, and the Order shall count you amongst our own.

Rule number 1. Don't. Say. A. Word. You're not members of the Illuminati Order. No wonder this secret society has been going on for centuries. They're intelligent in their approach and revealing themselves would be suicide . . . remember Lord Lovidicus? What an idiot. Maintain supple appearance through satisfaction of the thirst= drink deep, look good.

Devote to the procurement of influence, political and otherwise means focus on the arts. On Imperial structure. The wheels that turn society, the heart of it. Get a hold of Imperial power, you essentially have a finger in every other province if one is so ambitious. The members might be a select few. Many vampires we see in game in Oblivion are feral and live in caverns. The Order does not tolerate these vampires. Janus Hassildor had them wiped out because they would draw too much attention and even compared them to base animals! Much like the vampires of the Order consider all other vampires barbaric beasts which support my claim that the Count is a member of this society. By devoting to these things, you can guess a vampire from the Order will surely welcome that undead blueblood a member of the family.

Posted by: Acadian Mar 10 2015, 10:34 PM

So what I take from all this is that Destri, after decades of practice, has learned to control the beast and can now control his pizza frenzy urges. Therefore, he lives in a clean house, keeping his pizza lust quietly concealed from the rest of civilized society.

Posted by: mALX Mar 11 2015, 12:07 AM

Yes, but watch out for squirrels with drinks in their mouths!

Posted by: Destri Melarg Mar 11 2015, 05:25 PM

Whoops, I stand corrected. You are right of course. Thanks for the clarification.


Yes, but just barely!


Certain squirrels are always welcome to share a pizza… especially if they come bearing drinks!

Posted by: mALX Mar 11 2015, 06:10 PM

But your secret is out now, we know to lock our pepperoni and mozzarella cheese up



I'm on my way; but just so you understand - spraying drinks out one's mouth because someone barked a laugh out of the squirrel is not the same thing as the squirrel bearing drinks; although either way you are covered...er, one way or another?