To Heir is Human III revamped, discussion and planning, C'mon everybody, post your ideas and let's discuss! Options

[jack cloudy]

No offense to you, Bean, but I'm with everyone else on this one. I honestly can't see Tamriel working with relatively modern technology. Apart from the medieval stasis that it has been in for the last few thousand years, just the idea of modern tech vs magic is a bit weird. If anything, I'd guess that there would be an advancement in enchantment techniques rather than mechanical know-how.

That said, the political setup you've presented sounds pretty good. Unfortunately, we pretty much tried the whole republic of Tamriel thing with To Heir is Human. Maybe one day we'll put it to use but for now, it seems that people prefer to go back in time rather than forward.

Speaking of which, I'll be honest with you. I'm a tad burned out on fantasy setups, but I'll stick with you guys despite that. I know that my own interests are too niche to appeal to most people.

So let's run with the 'just before morrowind' idea. How much earlier do you think? Maybe set it during the Simulacrum? (AKA: Jagar Tharn's reign) My knowledge on that part of TES history is a bit rusty, but I seem to remember that it was a pretty chaotic time, with the empire creaking on its foundations and on the brink of civil war. Or rather, there was a civil war going on in Morrowind (I think. Didn't Barenziah's husband get killed by an anti-empire group?), Valenwood and Elsweyr were going at it again, and High Rock was a mess of tiny citystates fighting amongst each other, same thing with Hammerfell. (Note: I'm just going by memory here, so I could be wrong.) Oh, and then there were the Orsimer trying to revive Orsinium.

[Colonel Mustard]

Ah well, it was just a concept-if nobody's that interested then I can always use it for a story.

A story in pre-Morrowind Vvardenfel would be interesting, but how pre would pre be?

[Olen]

When I suggested pre morrowind I literally meant just pre maybe a decade.

http://www.imperial-library.info/history/3.shtml < history of that time

A few key dates in a nutshell:
3E 407 - construction of the ghostfence begins
3E 410 - sixth house spreading
- 414 - Vvardenfell opened to non temple people
- 415 - Sixth house everywhere, its strong
- 417 - The big one. The tribune loose keening and sunder and so most of their power to dagoth Ur. They keep this secret (as they had the source of their power)
- 426-7 - several assassination of prominent figures by sixth house
3E 427 - Neverine comes and kills dagoth ur three years later

Now as to why I think then would be good. Firstly its very fronteer, Vvardenfell is new territory and powers are changing, its all far more 'fronteer' than it was by the time morrowind was set. Everyone has secrets and stands to make, or lose, a lot. There are several factions all warring, the thieves guild/ commona tong, great houses, the temple within itself and with the dissident priests who would be appearing at this point. The imperials. The blades. The twin lamps. The ashlanders. Essentially everyone wants something and no one can have it all.

The other reason is because the most exciting times, especially for role play is not when it all blows up but is rather the lead in (that'smy opinion at least).

I think with different people on slightly different side (though probably not totally opposing) it could be good fun playing out what came before, we could make it follow what happened or if that isn't whats happening go our own way.

That was my thought but if anyone has another suggestion I'm happy any way. I just love morrownd becuase it has so much politics and conflict and this was one of its more strained times.

[Colonel Mustard]

So we have the when, so now we need the what and the who.

What kind of character is wanted and what are this group doing in Vvardenfel?

I'd personally like to be a daedra worshipper, preferably one of Sheogorath or Mehrunes Dagon (or both).

[jack cloudy]

I'll have to study up the events of that period a bit more before I can say anything definite.

Anyway, running with the year 417 and using Olen's short list for now. The way I see it, there will be several factors we could use. If not as part of the story, then maybe just for worldbuilding.

It's only been three years or so since people from the empire entered Vvardenfell enmasse. Seeing how isolationist and traditional most Dunmer are, this leads to some big friction especially since people aren't used to all those foreigners. Now I'd say Balmora is likely to be the most Imperialized city, followed by tourists in Vivec. When you move into Telvanni, Redoran territory, Outlanders become extremely rare.

Speaking of which, I always wondered about the Foreign Canton in Vivec. Till now, I assumed it had been around for decades but if that date is correct, there is no real reason for it to be any older than ten years. Then how was it constructed? I only see two options. Either it is a brand-new Canton, or an older Canton was remodeled and handed over to the foreigners. If so:
1: A newly constructed Canton would be a mayor project, equal to and likely even bigger than a fortress for a high-ranking member in one of the Houses. Then how was it constructed? Now unlike the game where you can get a village-sized Crab/Magic Mushroom/castle plopped down in just a few weeks, I'd say that a timespan in the order of months to years is a more realistic one.

So, did A giant mob of Dunmer/slaves pile bricks on top of each other? Or do we have to assume that Vivec performed a miracle? (Wasn't the cities' origin explained as the spine of some giant beast Vivec had slain or something?)
2: If it was an already existing canton, its original inhabitants would be less than pleased with the news that they have to give their house to some Outlander. This leads to friction again. (Sabotaging efforts against the remodeling crew? Threats against the new inhabitants?)

Because Outlanders are still a new phenomena, instead of the cold reception/open hostility you see in the game, there might be instances where an Outlander is treated as some sort of exotic, rarely spotted animal. As a curiosity, rather than an invader. (Note: This only holds up as long as the outlander in the matter is either alone or with a very small group.)

Beastfolk will pretty much deal with the same issues they dealt with ingame. Namely, being treated as non-sentient slaves whose only reason for existing is as a cheap workforce for the richer Dunmer.


That's it for now. I had more, but I forgot it while typing this down. Silly, I know.

Wait, I do remember this bit. How did Vivec know where Sunder and Keening where hidden? That always felt a bit odd to me though. I seriously doubt he walked in there, saw Sunder/Keening sitting on an altar, then just turned around and walked away while making a note of it. If he had seen it, he would have tried to recapture it. (And most likely Sunder and Keening would have been moved somewhere else again after that attempt fails.)

Though in all fairness and speaking as a gamer, I would have been seriously pissed if Vivec said:"Sorry Nerevar, but I have no idea where to find them. Try all the thousand caves of Vvardenfell, look under every pebble outside, pick every Dreamer's pocket and don't forget to check the rest of Nirn to see if Dagoth Ur didn't ship them off to Akavir. I'll be waiting right here in case you need some advice."

Now either he used some godly power of vision, or he sent in spies or something. (Which also gives a good excuse for why Sunder/Keening is still there. Spies don't have Wraithguard to keep the damn things from killing them after all. Though Dagoth Ur still should have just moved them to his bedroom or something.)

[Olen]

Perhaps my summary was a little misleading, I think there would have been outlanders (and most certainly native morrowind dunmer) on Vvardenfell before 3E 414. It was opened to 'colonisation' as the temple could no longer ban 'trade and additional settling'. So I'd think smuggling would still be rife and ther would be foreigners around but they would be on tempory 'visas' similarly to the real world - if I want to travel or work outside the EU I need the right documents (or transport to an out-of-the-way bit of border).

But I'd agree the whole dynamic of it will have changed hugely, and there will be a lot more outlanders around as I'd imagine getting the right documents would be easier for non-outlanders. I'd imagine there would be a big population swing going on and all the hatred, anger etc that seems to cause.

As for Keening and Sunder the only other explaination would be that they knew where Dagoth Odros and Dagoth Vemyin lived as it was they who stole Keening and Sunder.

[Florodine of Hlaalu]

I would definitely be in on the pre-Morrowind idea, I love that province and miss it haha. We'd need a good plot so we don't have a War of the Houses again.

[Dantrag]

(well, in doing lore research, i realized that the timeline says the blight didnt come along until 427, while the ghostfence construction began in 407, supposedly to keep out the blight that had not been reawakened yet...)

inconsistencies aside, I would like to center it around the time of the ghostfence construction, and say the blight's already back at this point.

We're still at a loss as far as plot, though.

[jack cloudy]

Crap. I had a lot written down, but then I had to go and accidentally press the 'previous page'-button. Go me.

Anyway, I was in the process of making a short and dirty list that might just help get us an idea of the kind of plot we're looking for. Or it might muddy up things. Thinking of it, it would probably muddy things up.

So far, we have pretty much agreed on the place and the time. We have also agreed that it should not overly focus on hackity-slashy. So here is my quick idea.

How about playing a more investigator-type? Like agents for a certain person/organization? It could be highly official. (Good morning, this is the Temple Internal Affairs department. We would like to ask you a few questions regarding the recent dissappearance of the donations bowl.) Or it could be of the more shadowy behind the scenes thing. (My rival has opened an Ebony mine and wants to move in on my bussiness. Shut it down, discredit him.)

Now there is one question I'd like to ask. Do you guys want to have just one player-group? Or do you want to go with the 'good guys' 'bad guys' setup of THIH? I personally prefer the one-group idea, since having two groups could be problematic if neither is willing to compromise and let the other succeed from time to time. (Then again, this only really applies if the two groups would be at conflict with each other.)

On the other hand, having one group makes it a bit harder to add stuff to the rp coming from outside the group. But if done well, it could be a good source for rp-ing. So my personal suggestion would be to go with one group, with one purpose, but with everyone having his/her own idea on how best to achieve it. It could lead to some quality arguing/compromising time.

Oh, and one last thing. The Moral compass. Do you want the PCs to be gray , pure good ...or pure evil?

[Olen]

I like the one group idea but how a bout a little twist...

Say we were to play investigator types but rather than all being from one organisation we were all investigating the same thing (perhaps the source of he tribune's power, or why the ghostfence must be build, they're fairly linked, or something totally different, I don't mind) so they will all come together as one group but with slightly different interests and spins. We could (and proabably should) still have multiple PCs in the same group to help it hold together but the multiple groups could add a bit of spice. Maybe the temple one trying to hush what he finds while a dissident trys to proclaim it and an imperial tryies to cash in on it... That way we could be whatever alignment takes our fancy because there will be people wanting to be any of three.

Of course to hold it together more we could have a set few groups people could be in, or we could leave it more open.

Just a thought.

[Colonel Mustard]

It would, but that does seem a tad too restrictive, and why would a temple person investigate something that they would hush up?

And it wouldn't work for the character I had in mind either (a psychotic, Mehrunes Dagon worshipping, anarchist).

[Dantrag]

It would, but that does seem a tad too restrictive, and why would a temple person investigate something that they would hush up?

agreed. and at that time, people knew why the ghostfence was being built, and they knew the source of the tribunal's power, right? i thought the heart itself was common knowledge, it just wasn't common knowledge that the tribunal was pretty much cut off from its power since dagoth ur stole sunder and keening.

[Olen]

http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/p...ess_truth.shtml

According to the somewhat biased dissidents various aspects of the tribune are secrets, including the source of their power and various other little embarrasments.

And you have to remember the temple was collapsing by 3E327 though perhaps mainly due to the fall and insanity of the tribunes.

But whatever, I don't really mind how we structure this and we still need some sort of driving story.

[jack cloudy]

Bean, I don't know how well your character would work in a team, honestly. Anarchist, and Mehrunes-Dagon worshipper. That sounds like he won't get along with people and have a desire for destruction. Unless of course, everyone plays the same type of character, but I doubt that. Maybe he is an anarchist and Mehrunes worshipper, but usually hides that under an illusion of civilized behavior. Because he is the eyes and ears of his cult in the cities?

Anyway, here is a quick, and far too brief plot-idea. Chew on it, shoot it, whatever.

With the loss of the tools, the Tribunal has pretty much panicked. Almalexia is going crazy, Vivec has sheltered himself in his palace and Sotha Sil...he was never much of a public person anyway. But despite all that, they still want to keep society function as normal as possible. So, to avoid doubts and questions from the people. Vivec (or Almalexia, in one of her more sane moments) has decided to form a team of...do-gooders.

Their mission, to seek out those who doubt the Tribunal. To restore people's faith in the Tribunal by doing good deeds and upholding the lessons of the sermons. And perhaps to achieve some personal goals while they're at it. (Hey, a bit of extra money never hurts.) And their missiongiver also ordered them to pick up those who wished to travel with them. So they could witness the good deeds of those in service to the Tribunal. (A bit like reporters travelling with military groups, actually. And a handwave to allow non-temple members to be in the group.)

[Dantrag]

i don't want the RP to be a missionary trip...

maybe we could say that the ghostfence is being built, but construction crews are constantly being assaulted by Dagoth Ur's minions. So in addition to Temple folk (armigers and healers) there would be all the Great Houses helping out, as well as additional mercenaries.

this would be before the colonization of Vvardenfell, though. (as far as outlanders go)

[Colonel Mustard]

My guy was going to be the dangerous kind of nut-the kind that you don't realise is a nut until it's too late. So he could go around do gooding, but he will be quite happy to torture, kill and maim should he wish.

And if we do do the do-gooders idea (which I prefer-less chance of godmoding in that way, and more politcal intruige), I'll have him as a temple fanatic instead.

Ah, the joy of headcases and literature...

*Cackles*

[jack cloudy]

Well, looks like I was wrong then. You can make your character work after all.


Anyway. Dantrag, you're suggesting that the PCs will be mercenaries hired to help make sure the construction goes smoothly? (perhaps in a mixed group that includes house members and temple members, depending on the characters people will make.) If so, I'm fine with it.

For starters though, maybe an assignment like escorting a supply-caravan through the ashlands towards the ghostfence might be a good idea to get a feeling for it. Sixt I'd rather deal with normal wildlife and maybe a territorial ashlander tribe, till we've gotten used to each other's characters. Protecting construction-workers from Ash-slaves and all is better left to the professionals, at least at first.

Of course, you also said that it is before the colonization. This means that unless folks can give a very good reason for theirs, characters will be limited to Dunmer and the Beast races. I don't have a problem with that myself.

[minque]

ok...sounds good to me! Gives us the opportunity to actually interact with each other...talk, sleep, eat, make love..yeah whatever! I like it! Since I'll probably play a woman...(as usual) it will be fine!

[Colonel Mustard]

Sounds good, especially the caravan guarding prologue, but we should be careful-it'll be all too easy for us to turn the story into one where we battle a meatgrinder of Dagoth Ur's minions. While that would be awesome as a climax, maybe we shoule make sure it's just the climax. Not to say the occasional raid is out of the question, but with this story we'll have to take extra care to make sure that combat takes a back seat to character development.

[Olen]

Before we start we need answers to a few questions:

The story

How do our characters all come together? It would be nice to set it up so it isn't forced, probably they are all going to work (fight, build, trade, heal, whatever) at an outpost camp where the fence is being built. But there could be other options.

What is the central conflict of the plot? In many ways this is most important. Obviously Dagoth Ur but how exactly. "They want to build the fence uncle Ur wants to stop them" falls a bit flat really. I think a few more specifics would keep things much more exciting and tight.

What, if anything, directly ties our characters together? Will they just happen all to be at the same camp, will there be anyone else at the camp? If not then the question is answered but it's a small camp, if so then there must be something to make them interact as I doubt the range we will end up with would hang out together normally...

Will there be an antagonist? Again obviously Ur is one but he's a bit beyond our reach if we don't godmode (and we shouldn't) so will there be another (or several) more reachable (but still challanging) 'boss(es)' so to speak. Whose side will they be on, ashladers? Sixth house? Will they be sitting in their cave/tent or will they be a hidden enemy within the government or even camp? I'm sure others would have objections to the project, I can't see the ghostfence doing good things to the value of real estate on Red Mountain...

Do we need to work out any NPCs or PCs we will require in advance? Leaders, politicians, priests, etc?

Characters

Is everyone happy to be limited to dunmer (and incomers if not aligned with the temple as before 3E414 there were no great house holding on Vvardenfell) or slaves (possibly escaped though this could be difficult)? I'm fine with it but it does limit some poeple.

Will mixed races occur? I dare say all humans can mix but can mer? What about mer and man (I don't think this happens in game)...

Setting

Has the blight appeared yet? I think we shuld go against the lore here and say it has as it would be a cool twist but perhaps it's less widespread but also harder to treat as its less well known. What about corpus?

Where on the ghostfence are we initially going?

Will there be ashstorms? Again these went with Ur so it would follow that as his power is less they would be less. However they're really cool so I say keep them.

Do people know how the tribunal get their power? The lore says no and I'd say go with it, it adds another thing we can play with if we want and gives the dissidents more reason to be active.


Answers to these will sprout more questions but once we have a fair idea of where we stand its much less likely to run aground. Indeed perhaps people should post what sort of characters they want to play so we know more what we're aiming for.

I think I'll go a priest with disticnctly dissident tendancies trying to find out things some at the temple would rather stayed hidden.