In My Time of Need, Saadia is lying Options

[Destri Melarg]

I haven’t seen this debated here before, so please allow me to get the ball rolling. Here are a few reasons why I believe that Saadia is a liar:


First, let’s ignore the fact that when you blow her cover her first instinct is to draw you into a private area and pull a knife on you. That could have been the case even if she was telling the truth.

Saadia claims that she is being hunted by Kematu’s band of mercenaries for speaking out against the Aldmeri Dominion. We must ask ourselves when exactly did this ‘speaking out’ occur? The events in Skyrim take place a full twenty years after the signing of the Second Treaty of Stros M’Kai. If we are to assume that she has not been hiding at the Bannered Mare for the last twenty years, then she made her comments against the Dominion after the elves had already left Hammerfell. There would be no reason for her to have to flee in fear of a Thalmor reprisal.

On the other hand, let’s assume that she spoke out during the heat of the Great War when parts of southern Hammerfell were occupied by Thalmor forces and therefore dangerous to any with the courage to speak. Why then didn’t she simply return to the protection of her noble family after the Treaty was signed? Once the elves were gone Hammerfell would have been the safest place in Tamriel for her, yet she chose to remain in hiding for a full twenty years after the elves had left her homeland. Why?

Saadia claims that Kematu and his men are mercenaries hired by the Aldmeri Dominion to silence her. Let’s take a look at that, shall we? The Thalmor rose to prominence in the aftermath of the Oblivion Crisis. In their nearly two hundred year history we have ample evidence of the lengths to which they will go to silence a dissident:

Rynandor the Bold was exiled by the Thalmor shortly after the Oblivion Crisis because he was critical of Thalmor claims that they were responsible for repelling the daedra. He then met with a violent end at Thalmor hands shortly after his departure. Lathenil of Sunhold was assassinated soon after bankrupting himself to see that copies of his book, Rising Threat, were distributed throughout the Empire. And Hadrik Oaken-Shield's journal details his dealings with the Thalmor . It is not contracted mercenaries he fears, it is Thalmor Justiciars.

Thalmor xenophobia would not allow them to trust the job of eliminating an enemy to one of the ‘lesser races.‘ It is highly unlikely that they would pay the expense of sustaining a band of Redguard mercenaries to search for a single Redguard woman throughout the holds of Skyrim. Especially when you consider that their own agents are already in place and, unlike Kematu’s group who can’t even get inside Whiterun, they are able to move (and even make arrests) with impunity. Moreover, it is highly unlikely that any Redguard, no matter how far he has fallen, would enter into a contract with the race that virtually obliterated most of southern Hammerfell.

Are we all so conditioned to jump to the aid of this 'damsel in distress' that we are willing to swallow any c0ck-and-bull story that she throws our way? Or are we suspiciousl of Kematu because he has chosen to camp at a place called Swindler's Den?

This post has been edited by Destri Melarg: Feb 6 2013, 10:24 AM

[McBadgere]

An interesting point, well made...

To which I reply...

The Thalmor?...Murdering people who speak out against them?...Nooooo...Surely not...

We thought the whole quest odd ourselves...Well, the wife and I did...The kids simply walked up to the Redguards and killed them as asked... ...(These are the kids who are in the top 3 pupils of their respective years from the SAT scores they got... ..)...But no, the wife and I asked questions...We were Good™... ...

Yes, the quest is odd...The reasoning is odd...The writing is bad...

The Thalmor should have had their ar$es handed to them at Anvil...Blahblah etc...




(Excellent write btw )...

[Grits]

I’ve thought about this quest a lot. It’s one of those places where the game rewards the curious. I’ve also come to the conclusion that Saadia is a liar, but it took me a while to get there.

My first character went with the knee-jerk Hate Thalmor, Kill Mercenaries option. It was a case of the character’s knowledge exceeding the player’s, unfortunately. That’s when I learned why it’s a bad idea for a lone Imperial to take on a band of Alik’r warriors.

Subsequent characters (once I had read a little more about 4th Era events) either turned Saadia over to the mercs or ignored the whole lot of them. The few characters without dragons in their world have never had the quest start.

My most interesting experience with this quest happened with Zuuri the Redguard battlemage. She was suspicious of Saadia’s story but didn’t completely believe Kematu’s. So she brought Saadia to the stable, killed both Saadia and Kematu right there in broad daylight, and then surrendered to the guards. That way she knew justice had been served.

[SubRosa]

There is not supposed to be a clear-cut right or wrong to this quest. We are never supposed to know who is really right, and who is really wrong. So I think if you are really concerned about that the only thing to do is to just ignore this quest and let the gods sort it all out in the end. Saadia is indeed lying. But so is Kematu and his band of rogues. There is no way for the player to ever learn the truth.

Klaatu Kematu claims he is working for the resistance. The resistance to what? As you pointed out, the war ended twenty years earlier. That is like someone claiming to belong to the Maquis in the 60's. Or me saying I am a member of the Continental Army, fighting British tyranny in the Colonies.

They claim that Saadia betrayed a city to the Thalmor. Look at her. How old is she? 20 or 25 at the most? She would have been a newborn during the war. Are we to believe that she crawled from her crib when her mother was not looking, did her dastardly business, then sneaked back in while no one was the wiser? Or maybe she plopped out of mommies womb, betrayed a city, then slid back up, reattached her umbilical cord, and hid out for a few more months before being born?

Then of course we have Klaatu Kematu and his band of cutthroats. These are the guys who claim to be moral and upright, yet are living with bandits? That is like a group of U.S. Marshals going to spend the night at a crackhouse. Yeah, right, I can so see that. They could have picked anywhere in Skyrim to camp, but naturally they went straight for a bandit hideout. There is an old saying about water seeking its level, and Klaatu Kematu found his at Swindler's Den.

These guys are not allowed in Whiterun. Why? All anyone has to do is say you have news of a dragon attack, and they will let you in. You could be walking around with a skull on your robe and a zombie carrying your luggage, and the guards will not even bat an eye. The only people they wont let in well known drug dealers like the Khajiit caravaneers. So they guys must have really worked hard to get on the bad side of the Whiterun guards.

Speaking of which, one of them is already in the Whiterun jail. He will tell you that his comrades have abandoned him, as that is there way. No band of brothers here. They could easily give someone some gold to go into the city to pay off his bounty and get him freed. But no, there is no sense of loyalty among these guys at all. Whoever falls behind, is left behind, and good riddance. It is every man for himself among them. This makes it hard for me to believe that they are in anything but bandits themselves.

Fianlly, it takes what, twelve of them to hunt down one lone woman? And those odds are not good enough for them, since they try to recruit you to take on Saadia for them. Talk about a overflowing font of courage there! Papa Thorson and Dog Champan would be laughing their asses off to hear that.

To wrap up the wall of text, I honestly do not know if we should put down the extreme stupidity of both Saadia and Klaatu Kematu's stories to the idiots who do the writing at Bethesda (I am convinced that they have a room filled with chimps chained to keyboards), or if we should actually try to take all of this seriously. If we are to take it seriously, then we are faced with one lying woman being hunted by a pack of lying, cowardly bandits. All there is to do is pick your lying side, and win. Personally, I do not like 12 to 1 odds, and so all my characters have sided with Saadia so far. Also those Redguard A-Holes harassing women throughout Skyrim really tick me off. Revansch used to kill them on the spot.

You will have to excuse me now, I am on my way to capture an escaped Tory who betrayed Charlestown to the British redcoats. Btw, you can help our cause to free the Colonies from the King's tyranny if you want. The government has seized an important shipment of arms and gold bullion that was on the way to us. We only need a little money to clear out the paperwork and get it back to the Continental Army. Just mail your check or money order to the Bank of Nigeria. Give us just $500 now, and I guarantee you that you will be reimbursed with 10 times that amount after we get the gold.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Feb 6 2013, 04:21 PM

[Destri Melarg]

An interesting point, well made...

To which I reply...

The Thalmor?...Murdering people who speak out against them?...Nooooo...Surely not...

We thought the whole quest odd ourselves...Well, the wife and I did...The kids simply walked up to the Redguards and killed them as asked... ...(These are the kids who are in the top 3 pupils of their respective years from the SAT scores they got... ..)...But no, the wife and I asked questions...We were Good™... ...

Yes, the quest is odd...The reasoning is odd...The writing is bad...

The Thalmor should have had their ar$es handed to them at Anvil...Blahblah etc...




(Excellent write btw )...

My first character (a Redguard) went into Swindler’s Den and killed everyone too, but that was because he wanted a good supply of scimitars and Hammerfell garb. I then felt guilty because my Redguard never should have done that. He should have been helping Kematu find this traitor! This one quest ruined that character for me, as odd as that sounds.

I’ve thought about this quest a lot. It’s one of those places where the game rewards the curious. I’ve also come to the conclusion that Saadia is a liar, but it took me a while to get there.

My first character went with the knee-jerk Hate Thalmor, Kill Mercenaries option. It was a case of the character’s knowledge exceeding the player’s, unfortunately. That’s when I learned why it’s a bad idea for a lone Imperial to take on a band of Alik’r warriors.

Subsequent characters (once I had read a little more about 4th Era events) either turned Saadia over to the mercs or ignored the whole lot of them. The few characters without dragons in their world have never had the quest start.

My most interesting experience with this quest happened with Zuuri the Redguard battlemage. She was suspicious of Saadia’s story but didn’t completely believe Kematu’s. So she brought Saadia to the stable, killed both Saadia and Kematu right there in broad daylight, and then surrendered to the guards. That way she knew justice had been served.

It sounds like Zuuri may have the right of it. Take them both out to the stables, clean their clocks, surrender to the guards, claim Thane’s privilege, and walk away!

There is not supposed to be a clear-cut right or wrong to this quest. We are never supposed to know who is really right, and who is really wrong. So I think if you are really concerned about that the only thing to do is to just ignore this quest and let the gods sort it all out in the end. Saadia is indeed lying. But so is Kematu and his band of rogues. There is no way for the player to ever learn the truth.

Klaatu Kematu claims he is working for the resistance. The resistance to what? As you pointed out, the war ended twenty years earlier. That is like someone claiming to belong to the Maquis in the 60's. Or me saying I am a member of the Continental Army, fighting British tyranny in the Colonies.

They claim that Saadia betrayed a city to the Thalmor. Look at her. How old is she? 20 or 25 at the most? She would have been a newborn during the war. Are we to believe that she crawled from her crib when her mother was not looking, did her dastardly business, then sneaked back in while no one was the wiser? Or maybe she plopped out of mommies womb, betrayed a city, then slid back up, reattached her umbilical cord, and hid out for a few more months before being born?

I had the same problem with both their stories. According to their Thalmor dossiers, both Ulfric and Delphine are in their forties. I think we have to assume the same for Saadia and Kematu (Barata Nicto? ) because that’s the only way anything that subsequently springs from their pie-holes makes sense.

Then of course we have Klaatu Kematu and his band of cutthroats. These are the guys who claim to be moral and upright, yet are living with bandits? That is like a group of U.S. Marshals going to spend the night at a crackhouse. Yeah, right, I can so see that. They could have picked anywhere in Skyrim to camp, but naturally they went straight for a bandit hideout. There is an old saying about water seeking its level, and Klaatu Kematu found his at Swindler's Den.

I can’t argue this point because it does seem strange that an ‘honorable’ band of Redguards would hide out amongst those without honor. This whole quest seems to be written in such a way as to make Kematu seem evil. Even his own man describes him in less than flattering terms when you meet him in the dungeon. Of course that could just be sour grapes from the one man left behind to rot.

These guys are not allowed in Whiterun. Why? All anyone has to do is say you have news of a dragon attack, and they will let you in. You could be walking around with a skull on your robe and a zombie carrying your luggage, and the guards will not even bat an eye. The only people they wont let in well known drug dealers like the Khajiit caravaneers. So they guys must have really worked hard to get on the bad side of the Whiterun guards.

Speaking of which, one of them is already in the Whiterun jail. He will tell you that his comrades have abandoned him, as that is there way. No band of brothers here. They could easily give someone some gold to go into the city to pay off his bounty and get him freed. But no, there is no sense of loyalty among these guys at all. Whoever falls behind, is left behind, and good riddance. It is every man for himself among them. This makes it hard for me to believe that they are in anything but bandits themselves.

One of them did get on the bad side of the Whiterun guards. That’s why he is cooling his heels in the dungeon. It also explains why those guards take a dim view of any other Alik’r entering the city. Just because they aren’t allowed in Whiterun doesn’t mean that they aren’t allowed in Markarth, or Windhelm, or Riften. Radiant Raiment in Solitude sells Hammerfell garb so it is safe to assume that the sight of someone walking the streets wearing it wouldn’t be considered odd.

As to the esprit de corps within Kematu’s band, well, you are taking the word of the one Alik’r that we know of who has actually broken the law. Perhaps he was left behind because the actions that landed him in the Whiterun dungeon also stained his honor amongst his comrades. If we are to believe Kematu’s story then they have spent two decades looking for a single woman who sold out a city to an army that was subsequently defeated. Honor means something to these men.

Fianlly, it takes what, twelve of them to hunt down one lone woman? And those odds are not good enough for them, since they try to recruit you to take on Saadia for them. Talk about a overflowing font of courage there! Papa Thorson and Dog Champan would be laughing their asses off to hear that.

Sorry 'Rosa, this argument betrays your own bias. The gender of the accused is irrelevant. If the Crown chooses to hunt down a fugitive whose actions compromised an entire city, and that fugitive is of noble birth and presumably has the resources available to someone of that station, and that fugitive has chosen to hide out in a land as vast and alien to Redguard sensibilities as Skyrim... then it stands to reason that they would not trust the job to a single individual.

To wrap up the wall of text, I honestly do not know if we should put down the extreme stupidity of both Saadia and Klaatu Kematu's stories to the idiots who do the writing at Bethesda (I am convinced that they have a room filled with chimps chained to keyboards), or if we should actually try to take all of this seriously. If we are to take it seriously, then we are faced with one lying woman being hunted by a pack of lying, cowardly bandits. All there is to do is pick your lying side, and win. Personally, I do not like 12 to 1 odds, and so all my characters have sided with Saadia so far. Also those Redguard A-Holes harassing women throughout Skyrim really tick me off. Revansch used to kill them on the spot.

So ask yourself this:

If those Redguards are as crooked as you seem to believe then why did Revansch incur a bounty every time she chose to kill them on the spot?

[Grits]

It sounds like Zuuri may have the right of it. Take them both out to the stables, clean their clocks, surrender to the guards, claim Thane’s privilege, and walk away!

The best part was that she declined the Thane’s privilege and served her time in prison. (Though if memory serves only one killing counted as a murder.) Her honor demanded that justice be served upon all three of them.

[SubRosa]

It sounds like Zuuri may have the right of it. Take them both out to the stables, clean their clocks, surrender to the guards, claim Thane’s privilege, and walk away!

I would not argue with this either!

One of them did get on the bad side of the Whiterun guards. That’s why he is cooling his heels in the dungeon. It also explains why those guards take a dim view of any other Alik’r entering the city. Just because they aren’t allowed in Whiterun doesn’t mean that they aren’t allowed in Markarth, or Windhelm, or Riften. Radiant Raiment in Solitude sells Hammerfell garb so it is safe to assume that the sight of someone walking the streets wearing it wouldn’t be considered odd.

As to the esprit de corps within Kematu’s band, well, you are taking the word of the one Alik’r that we know of who has actually broken the law. Perhaps he was left behind because the actions that landed him in the Whiterun dungeon also stained his honor amongst his comrades. If we are to believe Kematu’s story then they have spent two decades looking for a single woman who sold out a city to an army that was subsequently defeated. Honor means something to these men.

I do not believe Klaatu's story though. He has already proven himself to be a liar when he claimed to be a member of an organization that ceased to exist two decades in the past. Not to mention that he claims to be hunting a person who would have been an infant at the time his accusations took place. If she had even been born. Then given the fact that he chooses to live with murderers and cutthroats, he has made it very clear that honor is not a word he is on good terms with.

Sorry 'Rosa, this argument betrays your own bias. The gender of the accused is irrelevant. If the Crown chooses to hunt down a fugitive whose actions compromised an entire city, and that fugitive is of noble birth and presumably has the resources available to someone of that station, and that fugitive has chosen to hide out in a land as vast and alien to Redguard sensibilities as Skyrim... then it stands to reason that they would not trust the job to a single individual.

I agree that the gender is not important. However, I do believe that twelve against one is cowardly, by anyone's sensibilities. More like twenty to one if Saadia is going to take on Klaatu and his thugs in their bandit hideout. This is the single, biggest thing that sways me to kill Klaatu and this thugs. That and the fact that he is allied with bandits to begin with.

How hard can it be to find a Redguard in Skyim? It is not like the province is overflowing with them. That is like an African trying to hide in Sweden. It is not like they can just blend into the crowd now is it? It is not very difficult for me to walk around and meet all of the Redguards. It certainly is not impossible for RL bounty hunters like the aforementioned Papa Thorsen to find people hiding out in far larger, more heavily populated countries. All by their lonesomes too.

Talking about resources, we are referring to someone who has to work at an inn cooking and cleaning to make due. So it is not like she is bribing the locals to protect her, like Osama bin Laden was in Pakistan. Plus it is an inn for Akatosh's sake. The one place where everyone goes to and is sure to see her. Of all the possible hiding places, it has to be the stupidest one to pick, because it so easy to find someone there.

Speaking of that, if Klaatu is on the up and up, how come he has absolutely no proof? He has no warrant for Saadia's arrest. He has nothing to identify himself as a legally appointed officer of any Hammerfell court. Why does not not go straight to the various Jarls in Skyrim and ask if their guard has seen this so-called war criminal? He does not even bother trying to go though any sort of pretense at being what he claims. Probably because being a criminal himself, he has no idea how a real officer of the law would behave. Instead he is skulking around in bandit caves.

So ask yourself this:
If those Redguards are as crooked as you seem to believe then why did Revansch incur a bounty every time she chose to kill them on the spot?

Why did my Stormcloak character incur a bounty for killing Imperial soldiers while doing the Civil War questline? Why did my Imperial character incur the same bounties for killing Stormcloaks she found on the road?


Honestly, I think trying to rationalize one side or the other in this quest is just that: an attempt at rationalizing the actions you take. It is clear that both sides are lying through their teeth. It also clear that we will never know the truth of what is really going on. We are not supposed to have a clear good vs. evil solution here. It is supposed to be morally ambiguous, just like so many other aspects of this game. So trying to paint one or the other as being 'the good guy' or 'the bad guy' is pointless. Note that I am not saying anywhere that Saadia is a good and righteous person. I have agreed right off the bat that she is lying to you. I just do not pretend that Klaatu is not either. I would rather kill him because as I have said before 12 to 1 odds rub me the wrong way, as do bandits.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Feb 6 2013, 10:49 PM

[Destri Melarg]

I do not believe Klaatu's story though. He has already proven himself to be a liar when he claimed to be a member of an organization that ceased to exist two decades in the past. Not to mention that he claims to be hunting a person who would have been an infant at the time his accusations took place. If she had even been born. Then given the fact that he chooses to live with murderers and cutthroats, he has made it very clear that honor is not a word he is on good terms with.

You are pre-supposing that Saadia is far younger than I see her. If she is as old as you believe then her speaking out against the Thalmor in Hammerfell would hardly have been considered a crime worthy of exile. It would be like punishing a French teenager in the 1960’s for speaking out against the Germans.

If, on the other hand, she is old enough to have spoken out during the height of the Great War when it would have been dangerous to do so, then why stay exiled after the war has been won? One would guess that her return would be occasioned by a hero’s welcome, if she is telling the truth.

I agree that the gender is not important. However, I do believe that twelve against one is cowardly, by anyone's sensibilities. More like twenty to one if Saadia is going to take on Klaatu and his thugs in their bandit hideout. This is the single, biggest thing that sways me to kill Klaatu and this thugs. That and the fact that he is allied with bandits to begin with.

Fair enough. I am not fully convinced that Kematu and his group are allied with the bandits as opposed to simply tolerating their presence as long as it doesn’t interfere with the mission. But I can’t argue the point in such a way that it convinces you away from your point of view so I guess we have to agree to disagree on this one.

How hard can it be to find a Redguard in Skyim? It is not like the province is overflowing with them. That is like an African trying to hide in Sweden. It is not like they can just blend into the crowd now is it? It is not very difficult for me to walk around and meet all of the Redguards. It certainly is not impossible for RL bounty hunters like the aforementioned Papa Thorsen to find people hiding out in far larger, more heavily populated countries. All by their lonesomes too.

All the more reason why it doesn’t make sense that Kematu and his group were hired by the Aldmeri Dominion. The Thalmor already have their own agents in place, moving around Skyrim gathering Talos worshippers willy-nilly without any interference from either the Empire or the Stormcloaks. It seems like it would be a simple matter to expand that search to include the aforementioned African in Sweden.

Talking about resources, we are referring to someone who has to work at an inn cooking and cleaning to make due. So it is not like she is bribing the locals to protect her, like Osama bin Laden was in Pakistan. Plus it is an inn for Akatosh's sake. The one place where everyone goes to and is sure to see her. Of all the possible hiding places, it has to be the stupidest one to pick, because it so easy to find someone there.

Saadia does say that she was able to make off with a portion of her families’ wealth when she fled Hammerfell. It is what she offers for help against Kematu. But I do agree, hiding in an inn is pretty stupid!

Speaking of that, if Klaatu is on the up and up, how come he has absolutely no proof? He has no warrant for Saadia's arrest. He has nothing to identify himself as a legally appointed officer of any Hammerfell court. Why does not not go straight to the various Jarls in Skyrim and ask if their guard has seen this so-called war criminal? He does not even bother trying to go though any sort of pretense at being what he claims. Probably because being a criminal himself, he has no idea how a real officer of the law would behave. Instead he is skulking around in bandit caves.

You got me here. I have no answer for this. You’re right, if Kematu is what he says then he should at least be prepared to show a warrant. The fact that he doesn’t calls his whole story into question. I’m not sure I would go as far as calling Kematu a criminal, but something in his story is as shady as Saadia’s.

Why did my Stormcloak character incur a bounty for killing Imperial soldiers while doing the Civil War questline? Why did my Imperial character incur the same bounties for killing Stormcloaks she found on the road?


Honestly, I think trying to rationalize one side or the other in this quest is just that: an attempt at rationalizing the actions you take. It is clear that both sides are lying through their teeth. It also clear that we will never know the truth of what is really going on. We are not supposed to have a clear good vs. evil solution here. It is supposed to be morally ambiguous, just like so many other aspects of this game. So trying to paint one or the other as being 'the good guy' or 'the bad guy' is pointless. Note that I am not saying anywhere that Saadia is a good and righteous person. I have agreed right off the bat that she is lying to you. I just do not pretend that Klaatu is not either. I would rather kill him because as I have said before 12 to 1 odds rub me the wrong way, as do bandits.

Point taken. I may be rationalizing but isn't a rationalization necessary if one attempts to make sense of whatever action one takes in resolving this quest? Your rationalization is that you don't like 12 to 1 odds. That's cool. For me it comes down to a question of whose story seems more plausible. In my opinion that would be Kematu simply because, no matter how you slice it, Saadia's story is just flat out ridiculous. On the other hand Kematu may be lying, but his story seems a bit more plausible... to me at least. Maybe Grits and Zuuri have stumbled upon the only logical response to this quest!

[McBadgere]

...

...

Nope...Too clever for me...

*Wanders off making car noises*...

BrmmmmmmmmmMMMMMmmmm...Brmmmmmmmmm-EEEeeeeeeeeeee...

(Badlywrittenquestonlyagameseriouslycalmthefrakdown )...

[Kiln]

I think that the quest was intentionally left in a gray moral zone so that it was open to the player's interpretation.

It really gets you wondering if you did the right thing or not and I think that is what the devs wanted in this quest.

I enjoyed this quest because it wasn't a clear cut black/white issue.