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Chorrol.com _ Chorrol Big fiction competition _ Elder Scrolls Community competition

Posted by: Alexander Apr 3 2008, 11:50 AM

Well, as mentioned, this is the place to discuss anything you want to regarding the competition.


For the record, the complete list of rules and a small FAQ;

This is an extract from; http://competition.chorrol.com

The Rules

1. Any work entered has to be written by yourself.
2. There is a limit of one entry per writer per category.
3. Any entry has to be a completed work.
4. Any entry has to be written in English.
5. You may, if you wish, enter your story anonymously.
6. Any entry sent in, has to comply with the guidelines listed below
7. The maximum word count listed below, is the absolute maximum. A single word over the maximum will place your story in a different category.
8. Any entry has to be written about The Elder Scrolls universe, non ES related stories will not be allowed to enter.
9. By entering your stories into the contest, you're granting participating fansites the license to use the stories in any way they see fit within the confines of this contest.
10. The final deadline for entering a story in this competition, will be April 30th. Midnight April 30th is the last time for submitting a story.


Guidelines for submitting stories

1. All entries are to be sent to the following email address; Competition@chorrol.com
2. Make sure all entries are either in .doc, .txt or .pdf format.
3. Each entry has to be in a separate, but single file. If a story has 30 chapters, please send me all 30 chapters in a single file.
4. Please specify for each entry you're sending; 1. For which category you're entering it and, 2. What name, if any, I should mention wrote it.


The Categories

Short stories; Can be no longer then 2500 words
Medium sized stories; must be longer then 2500 words but no longer then 20000 words
Long stories; any story longer then 20000 words falls under this category, this category has no maximum word count.

The title of the story and the name of the author do not count toward the maximum word limit.


Judges and Judging

1. Each category will be judged by a panel of 3 members of the Elder Scrolls scene. In total there will be nine judges.
2. The panel of judges is pre-selected and will have the final say in everything.
3. All decisions of judges are final and cannot be appealed.
4. In a situation where the above rules do not apply, the ruling of the majority of judges (either in total or for a specific category) will be deciding.
5. Judges are selected before the start of the competition and their names are published on this site.
6. The final results of the competition will be published before June 1st, but if possible, sooner.


The judges;

Alexander -> Chorrol
Apy -> Planet Elder Scrolls
B -> The Imperial Library
BSD-IES -> Chorrol
Dark0ne -> TES Nexus
Gstaff -> Bethesda
Haplo -> Tamriel Rebuilt
Ratwar -> UESP
Reaver -> Elderscrolls.net

Posted by: Alexander Apr 3 2008, 02:03 PM

Q. Can I submit more then one story?
A. Yes, but not in a single category. Everyone may one story per category, that’s three in total, one for each category.

Q. My story is 2501 words, can I still submit it as a short story?
A. No. The word limit is strictly enforced. Ignoring it will make no difference as your entry will be rejected.

Q. Can I simply take a single chapter of my ongoing tale and submit it as a short story?
A. No, every story submitted has to be a “stand alone” story, that is it cannot be part of a larger story.

Q. Can I submit a story written in German or French?
A. No. Only stories written in English will be allowed.

Q. Will my story be judged based on proper grammar and spelling?
A. No. This isn’t an English spelling contest, so we don’t judge based on grammatical errors and spelling errors or the lack thereof. However, although we aren't marking it on these criteria, any submission that is littered with mistakes of this kind will inevitably be judged more harshly. Word processing programs come with spell checks inbuilt. Use them - it'll help you and the judges.

Q. What do you mean by “All the entries have to be completed works”
A. It means basically, your story has to have a beginning, a middle and an ending. If you’re in the process of writing a large story, and are up to chapter 3 of what will become 4, or 10 chapters, then you cannot submit it. Only complete and finished stories may be submitted.

Q. I once wrote a story about The Elder Scrolls ten years ago, can I submit it?
A. Yes. It doesn’t matter when you wrote it.

Q. Can I also submit this great story I’ve written that isn’t about The Elder Scrolls universe?
A. No. Only Elder Scrolls related stories will be allowed to enter in the contest.

Q. Does the story have to be about the actual Elder Scrolls, the ones you find in Oblivion?
A. No. It can be about anything related to one of the games set in the Elder Scrolls universe; Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, Redgaurd, Shadowkey, Battlespire, or anything lore related to that same universe.

Posted by: Olen Apr 3 2008, 04:25 PM

Exciting... Say I were thinking of reworking the story I entered to the last competition - is that allowed?

And just a suggestion - you might want to specify which timezone midnight is working on.


Posted by: BSD-IES Apr 3 2008, 05:24 PM

QUOTE(Olen @ Apr 3 2008, 04:25 PM) *

Exciting... Say I were thinking of reworking the story I entered to the last competition - is that allowed?

And just a suggestion - you might want to specify which timezone midnight is working on.



All we've said is that the stories have to be complete. So yes, I can't see any reason whatsoever why you couldn't enter the last story. Just remember though, you've got another 500 words to play with in the short story section. If you choose to - you don't have to obviously.

I'll let Alex get back to you on the timezone one, it's not just Chorrol involved this time. The judges are from several different TES sites.

Posted by: redsrock Apr 3 2008, 05:50 PM

Are we allowed to know who the judges are?

Posted by: BSD-IES Apr 3 2008, 06:14 PM

QUOTE(redsrock @ Apr 3 2008, 05:50 PM) *

Are we allowed to know who the judges are?


Looking at Alex's post at the beginning, I assume so. It says,

5. Judges are selected before the start of the competition and their names are published on this site.

Now, I can't see the names published anywhere yet, but I'm assuming Alex will get around to that.

Just to re-iterate the word counts:

Short Stories - Can be no longer then 2500 words

Medium Sized Stories - must be longer then 2500 words but no longer then 20,000 words

Long stories - any story longer then 20,000 words falls under this category, this category has no maximum word count. Let me repeat that. NO MAXIMUM WORD COUNT. It can be as long as you want.

Posted by: redsrock Apr 3 2008, 06:20 PM

Sorry, BSD. I read the original announcement after posting that. My bad.

Posted by: BSD-IES Apr 3 2008, 06:33 PM

QUOTE(redsrock @ Apr 3 2008, 06:20 PM) *

Sorry, BSD. I read the original announcement after posting that. My bad.


No problem mate smile.gif

Made me feel useful for a change... wink.gif

Posted by: Alexander Apr 3 2008, 07:25 PM

QUOTE(redsrock @ Apr 3 2008, 06:50 PM) *

Are we allowed to know who the judges are?


I just amended the first post here to include the names of all the judges. smile.gif

Posted by: redsrock Apr 3 2008, 07:32 PM

QUOTE


I just amended the first post here to include the names of all the judges. smile.gif

Thanks, Alex.

Posted by: Alexander Apr 3 2008, 08:45 PM

QUOTE(redsrock @ Apr 3 2008, 08:32 PM) *

QUOTE


I just amended the first post here to include the names of all the judges. smile.gif

Thanks, Alex.


Np smile.gif

Posted by: -20-lee-06- Apr 3 2008, 08:54 PM

Just wondering what kind of criteria the judges will be awarding points on?

Posted by: BSD-IES Apr 3 2008, 09:10 PM

QUOTE(-20-lee-06- @ Apr 3 2008, 08:54 PM) *

Just wondering what kind of criteria the judges will be awarding points on?


Well... everything really.

Obviously, as a competition, the stories will be rated against the other entries in that length class. Each judge will come up with their reasons for their choices, and those reasons will obviously include plot, characterisation, dialogue, writing style, how much they enjoyed reading it, is it unique or cliched etc etc. Each story isn't going to get scored on an individual basis I wouldn't have thought though. You have to take a story as a whole.

Posted by: The Metal Mallet Apr 3 2008, 09:33 PM

Woo hoo! Time to see how "Bloodlust" stands up to the masses. Now I gotta figure out a short or perhaps a medium story to write. I don't wanna use "The Mistake" again.

Posted by: jack cloudy Apr 3 2008, 09:43 PM

I'm in. Now I've really been neglecting my stories here, but I'm still going to start a new one.

No fixed ideas yet, but I think I'll use Ro-El. There's tons of stuff I can let that kid do sometime between Oasis 2 and Redemption. I should be able to think of something.

Mallet, I'm pretty sure Bloodlust will score mayor points. You might still want to read it through and look for miscelaneous typos though, just in case. smile.gif

Posted by: minque Apr 3 2008, 10:43 PM

Crap! Got a chance to be in on this....and don't have a complete story to compete with... sad.gif

Posted by: Alexander Apr 3 2008, 11:25 PM

QUOTE(The Metal Mallet @ Apr 3 2008, 10:33 PM) *

Woo hoo! Time to see how "Bloodlust" stands up to the masses. Now I gotta figure out a short or perhaps a medium story to write. I don't wanna use "The Mistake" again.


Or both a short and medium? wink.gif

QUOTE(jack cloudy @ Apr 3 2008, 10:43 PM) *

I'm in. Now I've really been neglecting my stories here, but I'm still going to start a new one.

No fixed ideas yet, but I think I'll use Ro-El. There's tons of stuff I can let that kid do sometime between Oasis 2 and Redemption. I should be able to think of something.


Well, you also seem to have a few "completed" stories already, one of those is an easy entry. If you want to go with it that is smile.gif

QUOTE(minque @ Apr 3 2008, 11:43 PM) *

Crap! Got a chance to be in on this....and don't have a complete story to compete with... sad.gif


Perhaps you can come up with a short or medium sized story between now and the end of the submission period? Then you can enter smile.gif

Posted by: redsrock Apr 3 2008, 11:40 PM

QUOTE(Alexander @ Apr 3 2008, 11:25 PM) *


Perhaps you can come up with a short or medium sized story between now and the end of the submission period? Then you can enter smile.gif

That's what I'm doing with the Medium and Short categories.....

Posted by: canis216 Apr 4 2008, 01:20 AM

I'm doing something almost entirely new, though continuing on my recent Alik'r desert kick... my recent submission to the Temple of Lore can serve as a sort of clue as to my subject.

Posted by: The Metal Mallet Apr 4 2008, 07:46 AM

QUOTE(jack cloudy @ Apr 3 2008, 04:43 PM) *

I'm in. Now I've really been neglecting my stories here, but I'm still going to start a new one.

No fixed ideas yet, but I think I'll use Ro-El. There's tons of stuff I can let that kid do sometime between Oasis 2 and Redemption. I should be able to think of something.

Mallet, I'm pretty sure Bloodlust will score mayor points. You might still want to read it through and look for miscelaneous typos though, just in case. smile.gif


Oh yea, I definitely plan to go through it and edit the typos. I also gotta switch the first few pages to past tense since I couldn't make up my damn mind about which tense to use when I started that thing. tongue.gif

Posted by: Geraldduval Apr 8 2008, 05:29 PM

so, I had just a quick question. I wrote a story for another bord that was set in the 5th era. obviously some things were a little different as it was set a couple hundred years after oblivion, but it was still within what i thought as the bounds of the TES word. is this ok to submit or should I stick with the times portrayed in the current games?

Posted by: BSD-IES Apr 8 2008, 06:11 PM

QUOTE(Geraldduval @ Apr 8 2008, 05:29 PM) *

so, I had just a quick question. I wrote a story for another bord that was set in the 5th era. obviously some things were a little different as it was set a couple hundred years after oblivion, but it was still within what i thought as the bounds of the TES word. is this ok to submit or should I stick with the times portrayed in the current games?


Could you possibly send me a link via pm to where you've posted it before, so I can have a look? If it fits within the lore and feel of TES then it should be fine, but I think we're a little nervous about spaceships, plasma guns and BFG's suddenly appearing in Balmora wink.gif

Posted by: Geraldduval Apr 8 2008, 06:21 PM

haha, certainly. If one were to pretend that the 3rd era is he middle ages, the 5th would be the renaissance...

Posted by: minque Apr 9 2008, 12:31 AM

QUOTE(BSD-IES @ Apr 8 2008, 07:11 PM) *

I think we're a little nervous about spaceships, plasma guns and BFG's suddenly appearing in Balmora wink.gif


Muhahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaa great sweet BSD....you absolutely made my day! That comment was priceless. biggrin.gif

Anyway, I'm seriously thinking of coming up with something, although it might be a dark, sad story, because my thoughts are a bit that way at the moment...


Let's just hope I'll manage to go through with it.... mellow.gif


Posted by: 0rimus Apr 12 2008, 04:55 AM

I just jumped in on this one earlier today with no idea what version (short, medium, long) I was going to go with. I was aiming for short or medium, but I checked my word count and I was already up to 5600+ words. And my story has barely kicked off. So I think I'll be aiming for the big one now, my only fear is that I won't finish it by the deadline, even working a couple hours every day (unlikely) I won't be able to finish it. I must decide upon telling the story unaltered, or cut it off (which will probably ruin it). Can the end date be extended? Lol, i wish. Anyway, I was wondering about speech. Obviously people in ES don't say dude or things of that nature, and was wondering how much this would affect our score. And names. There are obvious traits of names for a given race, and would straying from these unspoken guidelines affect the score? And what about violence? I'd assume it'd be pretty liberal given that Oblivion is a mature rated game, but are you laying down rules for going too far?

Posted by: BSD-IES Apr 12 2008, 07:09 AM

QUOTE(0rimus @ Apr 12 2008, 04:55 AM) *

Can the end date be extended?


No, I'm afraid not.

QUOTE(0rimus @ Apr 12 2008, 04:55 AM) *
Anyway, I was wondering about speech. Obviously people in ES don't say dude or things of that nature, and was wondering how much this would affect our score.


biggrin.gif "Yo, my main man Helseth, what's happening dude?" It doesn't quite fit does it? wink.gif How would that affect your score? Lets just say I wouldn't recommend it...

QUOTE(0rimus @ Apr 12 2008, 04:55 AM) *
And names. There are obvious traits of names for a given race, and would straying from these unspoken guidelines affect the score?


The simple answer to both of those is stick to the lore as much as possible. For example, if you really want your lead character to be called Bob and your villain Bill then it's up to you....but it doesn't really seem to fit. I would stick to TES type names if it were me. There are plenty of name generators around if you're stuck. This is the one I tend to use the most:

http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/?p=modding_data/ngen

QUOTE(0rimus @ Apr 12 2008, 04:55 AM) *
And what about violence? I'd assume it'd be pretty liberal given that Oblivion is a mature rated game, but are you laying down rules for going too far?


Good question, and one we haven't discussed. Truthful answer is it depends. Violence is an accepted part of Tamrielic culture but I'd tend to avoid excessively gratuitous - for the simple fact that it's held on a site which younger viewers can read.

Posted by: Alexander Apr 12 2008, 10:05 AM

QUOTE(0rimus @ Apr 12 2008, 05:55 AM) *

And names. There are obvious traits of names for a given race, and would straying from these unspoken guidelines affect the score? And what about violence? I'd assume it'd be pretty liberal given that Oblivion is a mature rated game, but are you laying down rules for going too far?


I agree completely with BSD-IES there. Though would like to mention two small things.

I'm not sure if it's in any of the games, but I can imagine a character with a name very unnatural for the race he/she belongs to. In such a case, a good background explaining it could do wonders. However like BSD-IES said, probably best to keep it genuine and at least somewhat lore friendly, though that doesn't have to be the ultimate guiding lines.

Violence, no rules against it, not even a rule against the most gruesome violence, however again you could ask yourself if it serves your story, that is if it adds something to the story, or if it's just violence for the sake of violence, In which case, it might be better left out. smile.gif

Posted by: LeTren Thundakk Apr 14 2008, 04:44 AM

Can I submit a story that is stand alone, yet other stories I've written involve the main character?

As in, multiple stories telling different times in the character's life, but I just submit one of them. Or is that bad?

Posted by: 0rimus Apr 14 2008, 04:53 AM

I was also wondering about what Thundakk brought up. And if not, what about other sub-characters? Can they break off, and I make another story about that character? (Sorry, horrible grammar, I just couldn't think of a better way to word that, tch, and I'm supposed to be a writer.) Also, how do specify the catagory we're trying for; put long/med./short in the subject part of the e-mail? P.S., Now I'm on 12,000 words! And that was what, 2-3 days? Impressive snake. Found a way to shorten the story within reasonable limits without sacraficing too much. And thanks for the name generator BSD-IES.

Posted by: Sephary Apr 14 2008, 07:47 PM

ooooh. interesting. I shall have to see what I come up with...happy.gif

Posted by: Alexander Apr 15 2008, 08:46 AM

QUOTE(LeTren Thundakk @ Apr 14 2008, 05:44 AM) *

Can I submit a story that is stand alone, yet other stories I've written involve the main character?

As in, multiple stories telling different times in the character's life, but I just submit one of them. Or is that bad?

QUOTE(0rimus @ Apr 14 2008, 05:53 AM) *

I was also wondering about what Thundakk brought up. And if not, what about other sub-characters? Can they break off, and I make another story about that character? (Sorry, horrible grammar, I just couldn't think of a better way to word that, tch, and I'm supposed to be a writer.) Also, how do specify the catagory we're trying for; put long/med./short in the subject part of the e-mail? P.S., Now I'm on 12,000 words! And that was what, 2-3 days? Impressive snake. Found a way to shorten the story within reasonable limits without sacraficing too much. And thanks for the name generator BSD-IES.


A stand alone story about an existing character, or sub character from one of your on going stories would be just fine to enter. Just so long as it isn't simply an extract from a longer story. smile.gif

Posted by: LeTren Thundakk Apr 15 2008, 05:22 PM

That's good to hear, as I sent it in before I even thought of that question. blink.gif

Posted by: 0rimus Apr 16 2008, 12:13 AM

QUOTE(Alexander @ Apr 15 2008, 12:46 AM) *


A stand alone story about an existing character, or sub character from one of your on going stories would be just fine to enter. Just so long as it isn't simply an extract from a longer story. smile.gif


Cool. I started this story for the sole purpose of this contest, but now I've found myself attached to some of my characters.

Posted by: 0rimus Apr 21 2008, 06:57 AM

Okay. It's been awhile and things are for the most part running smoothly. But I ran into another problem with names. I was using my spellcheck and it didn't like the name of my orc character. Not being too computer saavy (AKA retarded) instead of adding it to the dictionary I used a place holder with the intent of coming back to change it. Now I've got over 20,000 words and the spell check isn't picking it up because I altered it. Now I'll probably have enough time to go back and change it, but if I don't am I stuck with the place holder? The gist of my question is this: Will someone edit our stories before they are entered for people to read on a large scale? Knowing myself I'll have a few typos not picked up by spellcheck. Also even if and when I do go back to change things there'll be a few Fred Groh' Cash's mixed in with the proper Fred gro-Malag's. I don't want to confuse people (at least not in this context), but like I said, I'll get around to it.

Posted by: BSD-IES Apr 21 2008, 07:32 AM

QUOTE(0rimus @ Apr 21 2008, 06:57 AM) *

Okay. It's been awhile and things are for the most part running smoothly. But I ran into another problem with names. I was using my spellcheck and it didn't like the name of my orc character. Not being too computer saavy (AKA retarded) instead of adding it to the dictionary I used a place holder with the intent of coming back to change it. Now I've got over 20,000 words and the spell check isn't picking it up because I altered it. Now I'll probably have enough time to go back and change it, but if I don't am I stuck with the place holder? The gist of my question is this: Will someone edit our stories before they are entered for people to read on a large scale? Knowing myself I'll have a few typos not picked up by spellcheck. Also even if and when I do go back to change things there'll be a few Fred Groh' Cash's mixed in with the proper Fred gro-Malag's. I don't want to confuse people (at least not in this context), but like I said, I'll get around to it.


Sorry, but no - nobody will be editing it for you. Whatever you send in as your submission will be what's shown. Warts and all wink.gif

Can you not do find and replace?

Posted by: 0rimus Apr 28 2008, 04:09 AM

Finished and sent in. Whoooo. Long catagory with 3 days to burn. Went back and fixed what I could. I left the ending open for a contuinuation (maybe). Anyone aiming for the longest catagory, 20000 words +, good luck. You and I will be fighting for the top spot. I put alot of work into this one, and I think it turned out fairly well, guess we'll find out in a couple days. May the best Argonian win!

Posted by: The Metal Mallet Apr 28 2008, 04:14 AM

I sent in "Bloodlust" today after fixing the tense issues I had with the beginning of the story. There's bound to be typos here and there, but the story was just too damn huge for me to catch em all.

Hopefully the judges will enjoy it. It's gotten a good reception here from what I've seen.

Posted by: 0rimus Apr 28 2008, 06:37 AM

QUOTE(The Metal Mallet @ Apr 27 2008, 08:14 PM) *

I sent in "Bloodlust" today after fixing the tense issues I had with the beginning of the story. There's bound to be typos here and there, but the story was just too damn huge for me to catch em all.

Hopefully the judges will enjoy it. It's gotten a good reception here from what I've seen.


So I'm assuming it's in the long catagory right?

Posted by: jack cloudy Apr 28 2008, 08:58 AM

Sent it in yesterday evening. (Well, it was like half an hour past midnight, so I should say this morning.)

Medium length and for as far as I can see, most typos are out. Except there is a small continuity flaw at the end, which I noticed five minutes after sending. Oops. smile.gif

Posted by: The Metal Mallet Apr 28 2008, 08:52 PM

Yes, Orimus it is. It was a story that I had worked on for a year and a half before finishing. I did have a few lengthy breaks getting close to the end though. According to the Word document, it is around 270 pages though I have a feeling the borders of my pages might be the cause of that. I was pretty sure that when I finished it, it was only around 200.

Posted by: 0rimus Apr 29 2008, 01:55 AM

I only got 49 pages, all in size 12 font Times New Roman. Considering I started this story on April 15th and finished on the 27th of the same year. Ya, that's pretty good. There'd be more, but my writing before the contest was dedicated to 500+ page hand-writen (and its only a brief outline) fantasy novel(s). All the while I was writing my Halo fanfic, multiple short stories, drawing, etc. etc. Ontop of my normal life and school and stuff of course. I still think I should've expanded it before sending it in... but I'd always think that, no matter how near-perfect it got. I think the total amount of hours I put in is maybe six or seven, so for that amount of time its a good story. But like I said earlier; we'll find out.

Posted by: The Metal Mallet Apr 29 2008, 02:02 AM

Indeed. I wish you the best of luck.

Posted by: paragenic Apr 29 2008, 08:47 AM

salute.gif

Posted by: The Metal Mallet Apr 29 2008, 08:58 PM

well 00 and 24 both are exactly the same, so I don't see the problem. I think the due date is basically 23:59:99 April 29. Midnight is the first second of April 30. Now you just gotta figure out which time zone they're working with, which I believe is one of the European time zones.

Posted by: minque Apr 29 2008, 09:01 PM

I'll just wish you all good luck! I'm not participating, I did plan to but......nevermind, things doesn't always come out as planned!

Posted by: Chiglet Apr 30 2008, 06:34 AM

Sounds like quite a few stories are being entered in this smile.gif 200+ pages? 49 pages? Yikes! ohmy.gif You people have got the writer's bug and good for you! goodjob.gif I always enjoy well written stories. As for the due date, I figure if the entry is there by 11:59:59pm GMT, that should be good enough smile.gif Looking forward to seeing what other people have entered, even if they've entered it before or posted it on a forum somewhere.

Posted by: 0rimus Apr 30 2008, 06:43 AM

I've never posted anything anywhere before this. I hope my writing style is a breath of fresh air. From what little I've read it seems unique, not that I'm saying all your guys' are the same, just that mine is you know, my own. I kinda compare my style to Eoin Colfer's Atemis Fowl books; medium-long description, talk, action, repeat. I like it, I also delve into my lead charaters thoughts more than Eoin. wink.gif

Posted by: paragenic Apr 30 2008, 10:46 AM

salute.gif

Posted by: Chiglet Apr 30 2008, 11:36 AM

QUOTE(paragenic @ Apr 30 2008, 02:46 AM) *

QUOTE(The Metal Mallet @ Apr 29 2008, 09:58 PM) *

well 00 and 24 both are exactly the same, so I don't see the problem. I think the due date is basically 23:59:99 April 29. Midnight is the first second of April 30. Now you just gotta figure out which time zone they're working with, which I believe is one of the European time zones.


Hi, Metal Mallet!

Thanks for your reply, and for proving my point. biggrin.gif It IS confusing. Would be better if this were explained more clearly should there ever be a repeat of this. For myself it's a good lesson. I will never again give my suppliers a deadline of midnight the next time I send out an RFP... cool.gif


It's a good bet they're talking about Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) for this. It'd technically be the first time xone of all to reach midnight, and the one that's normally used. If you open the little clock that;s on most computers and take a lok in the time xones area you should be able to figure out what time you would need to have something in by. (yeah, real technical of me, i know)

Posted by: paragenic Apr 30 2008, 12:11 PM

salute.gif ...

Posted by: BSD-IES Apr 30 2008, 02:57 PM

QUOTE(paragenic @ Apr 30 2008, 12:11 PM) *

Be careful!!! on http://chorrol.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4019 they specify GMT+1. GMT +1 is CET, this is ONE HOUR AHEAD of UK time and several hours ahead of the Americas. If you live in the area with most of the English speaking folk of planet Earth you may have less time than you thought.
Always remember, it is harder to meet a deadline in Tokyo than it is to meet one in San Francisco...


Well, Alex runs this site and he's from Holland, so it's not really surprising he'd use Central European Time is it? wink.gif

As for the confusion about the deadline, it means on the 30th April at Midnight (ie just before it becomes the 1st May) submissions will no longer be accepted. About 8 hours left basically smile.gif

Posted by: Jordy May 2 2008, 12:33 AM

This is all very exciting. It's nice to see such a good number of entries...I enjoyed reading then all, although I wasn't able to open Spydre's "The Witchhunter's Tale" for some reason...anyone else have this problem?

Are we allowed to know which judges are judging which categories?

Posted by: paragenic May 2 2008, 05:38 AM

salute.gif

Posted by: paragenic May 2 2008, 06:00 AM

salute.gif

Posted by: Chiglet May 2 2008, 10:06 AM

QUOTE(paragenic @ May 1 2008, 09:38 PM) *

I get a 404 Not Found when opening http://competition.chorrol.com/stories/entry16.txt!!!

sad.gif

I must say it was a relief when Alex posted the stories. By 1800 hours I was mobilizing my armies to invade the Netherlands! tongue.gif

What is the title of the story that isn't opening for you? I haven't had any probs yet with any of them other than the larger ones taking just a bit longer to open. But that's to be expected. smile.gif Got to glance through a few of them yesterday and it;s interesting to see the variety just in writing styles. Definitely have got some talents in there.

Posted by: raggidman May 2 2008, 10:35 AM

QUOTE(paragenic @ May 2 2008, 05:38 AM) *

I get a 404 Not Found when opening http://competition.chorrol.com/stories/entry16.txt!!!

sad.gif

I must say it was a relief when Alex posted the stories. By 1800 hours I was mobilizing my armies to invade the Netherlands! tongue.gif


That's quite worrying as I have discovered a street near Marylebone High Street in the City of Westminster called Ashlands Place - it appears that the ashlands are spreading ohmy.gif


QUOTE
Jack cloudy Apr 28 2008, 08:58 AM Post #39

Sent it in yesterday evening. (Well, it was like half an hour past midnight, so I should say this morning.)

Medium length and for as far as I can see, most typos are out. Except there is a small continuity flaw at the end, which I noticed five minutes after sending. Oops.


This one worried about that stuff too, but on reading more of the work in the Fiction Forum one has begun to feel that polish and readability are not necessarily the same thing where novels are concerned. This is different with poetry where the tiniest inflection in any part of a poem can change the entire sense and flavour of the work.

This one is no longer so happy with the name Fan Fiction Forum either as this one believes that much of the work therein is worthy of publication in its own right.



Posted by: 0rimus May 3 2008, 06:49 AM

I agree with raggidman, I caught at least two misspells going through my story again. What's worse is that there was still a placeholder (Fred Groh' Cash) mixed in with the proper Fred gro-Malogs. *sigh* Oh well, my OCD will never be sated. I'd like to read my competition (and the other catagories I didn't compete in as well), but my stupid Mac won't open them cuz I doughnut have Mircosoft word. Carp. I'll just have to do it after I get back from Vegas on my sis's computer or something. Por que!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: raggidman May 3 2008, 11:15 AM

blink.gif was suggestin' that even with errors a tale can be enjoyable = the important thing is the content and the way it is written. So long as it is just odd spellin' and stuff.

So check the flavour first! smile.gif

Posted by: Alexander May 3 2008, 06:23 PM

QUOTE(paragenic @ May 2 2008, 06:38 AM) *

I get a 404 Not Found when opening http://competition.chorrol.com/stories/entry16.txt!!!

sad.gif

I must say it was a relief when Alex posted the stories. By 1800 hours I was mobilizing my armies to invade the Netherlands! tongue.gif


QUOTE(Chiglet @ May 2 2008, 11:06 AM) *

QUOTE(paragenic @ May 1 2008, 09:38 PM) *

I get a 404 Not Found when opening http://competition.chorrol.com/stories/entry16.txt!!!

sad.gif

I must say it was a relief when Alex posted the stories. By 1800 hours I was mobilizing my armies to invade the Netherlands! tongue.gif

What is the title of the story that isn't opening for you? I haven't had any probs yet with any of them other than the larger ones taking just a bit longer to open. But that's to be expected. smile.gif Got to glance through a few of them yesterday and it;s interesting to see the variety just in writing styles. Definitely have got some talents in there.


Yeah sorry about that dead link guys, I fixed it. Wrong link got carried over.

As to invading the netherlands, I hope you bring your flippers and swimshorts, when we let the dikes down you're in for some wet and wild times wink.gif


Just a general comment about the competition and judging and such, I'm almost done reading through all the entries of the category I'm judging, and must say I'm very impressed with the work entered! It took me the better part of two days to get through everything, but it was well worth it!

I'm just sorry we can only give prizes to the one who finishes first in their category, because if it were up to me nearly everyone would receive a prize.
Excellent work!

Posted by: 0rimus May 25 2008, 04:56 AM

It's been awhile, how are things going?

Posted by: Alexander May 25 2008, 06:57 AM

QUOTE(0rimus @ May 25 2008, 05:56 AM) *

It's been awhile, how are things going?


Almost ready to publish the results, I'm really hoping today (Sunday) we'll be able to.

Unfortunately we had a small setback, so it took a bit longer then expected.

Posted by: Alexander May 25 2008, 10:16 AM

Ok, the results are in;
http://chorrol.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4054

Posted by: redsrock May 25 2008, 02:40 PM

Even one didn't win anything, will they still get a 'score' or something on how they did...?

Posted by: Alexander May 25 2008, 03:01 PM

QUOTE(redsrock @ May 25 2008, 03:40 PM) *

Even one didn't win anything, will they still get a 'score' or something on how they did...?


Well, I guess I could post the entire list of points per category, if you'd like to see that. smile.gif

Posted by: redsrock May 25 2008, 03:33 PM

QUOTE(Alexander @ May 25 2008, 03:01 PM) *

QUOTE(redsrock @ May 25 2008, 03:40 PM) *

Even one didn't win anything, will they still get a 'score' or something on how they did...?


Well, I guess I could post the entire list of points per category, if you'd like to see that. smile.gif

Yes, I most definitely would. Thanks. smile.gif

Posted by: Alexander May 25 2008, 03:46 PM

QUOTE(redsrock @ May 25 2008, 04:33 PM) *

Yes, I most definitely would. Thanks. smile.gif


Medium sized stories;
Sugar, or Fear and Loathing in South Cyrodiil, by Yorneim Hier; 29
The Fall of the West, by Hemitheon; 24
[CUaRRr]-akhh-trrals - or: A Horror of Misperception, by Squelchy Xerotripsis Underfoot; 18
The last dance, by Agent Griff; 17
Eyes of the heavens, by Kyle Cadena; 15
Tale of a scaled knight, by Jack Cloudy; 14
The Companion of Tuskus and Ahldmeria, by Jamie White; 10
Travels in Tamriel, by Thinalphiel; 9
Barricade, by Adam Spaay; 6
The Witchhunter's tale by Spydre; 6
Lucien's Luck, by Jordy; 6
Musketeer, by GeraldDuval; 3
Brother’s keeper, by Ioan Alexandru; 3
Bound, by Kindlemoth; 2
The cursed sewers, by Alisa Pankova; 2
Collywobbles, by C. Lop; 1

Long stories;
The story of Trey, Treydog; 30
We are merely shadows, Erika Webb; 28
The Tale of Matthias Etanne, Hadrian; 26
Bloodlust, The Metal Mallet; 16
Dance of the ja-Kha'jay, Lakyan; 12
The Accounts of Rayden - Redsrock; 2

A small note about the long story category here, originally there was a three way tie between the top three there, in the end we asked a fourth outside judge to break the tie. He only judged those three stories tied, not the rest of them and his top three has been added to the points to make the list you see above.


Short stories;
Forward unto Darkness, by Adventurous Putty; 27
Tedril's Journal, by Andraz Drcar; 24
My Heart, by Shades; 17
Escape, by MafuLeTrekkie; 16
The true hero, by Matteo Nobis Sandén; 15
A note of charcoal and blood, Mikedzines; 9
Andre Labouche, by Adoring Freak; 9
The justice of Almsivi, by Eldersphinx; 8
According to Nature, by Raggidman; 8
With Great Power by Kiln; 6
Cyrodiil, by Anon; 5
An Abacean Heartache, by Brian S.; 5
The Beggar's Tale, by Thomas Stanley; 4
Edesil, by Erka; 3
Part One: The Curse of Freedom; 3
Deception Doubled by Anonymous; 2
From Out of a Cimmerian Nightmare, by Red Door; 2
Black Rain and Churning Earth, by Mortazo; 2

Each judge made a top ten, and gave the stories in their top ten between 1 and 10 points. One exception was the long story category where there was only a top 5. So technically a story could get a maximum of 30 points, that is with 3 judges all choosing it as their first pick.

Posted by: treydog May 25 2008, 03:53 PM

Wow. Um... I am actually kind of speechless. First, thanks to the Chorrol team for putting this together, and to Bethesda for participating. And thanks to the judges for taking a large chunk of their time to read and consider.

But, perhaps most of all, thanks to everyone who entered for sharing their fantastic work with all of us. The opportunity to read such outstanding stories makes us all winners.

Posted by: redsrock May 25 2008, 04:17 PM

Can I see the scoring system on which you judges were judging on? What I am trying to say is that I wish to why I recieved the score that I did. I'm not going to lie, I don't think I should have gotten a two, and I'm just curious to see why I got such a low score.

This isn't to say that I think I should have won. Oh no, Trey more the deserves the award. I just can't see why I recieved such a low score. Don't think of me as an boatmaster, please. It's only natural for an author to defend his writing....

EDIT: Also, there are other scores which don't make sense to me. I'd just like to see what we were judged upon...

EDIT 2: And congratulations to Trey. Sorry, man, that should have been my first post.

Posted by: Alexander May 25 2008, 04:40 PM

QUOTE(redsrock @ May 25 2008, 05:17 PM) *

Can I see the scoring system on which you judges were judging on? What I am trying to say is that I wish to why I recieved the score that I did. I'm not going to lie, I don't think I should have gotten a two, and I'm just curious to see why I got such a low score.

This isn't to say that I think I should have won. Oh no, Trey more the deserves the award. I just can't see why I recieved such a low score. Don't think of me as an boatmaster, please. It's only natural for an author to defend his writing....


Well, I can pm you my reasoning if you'd like, but I'll have to ask the other judges if they're ok with me mentioning what they said about specific stories.
Ah, and unfortunately only the judges of the long story section made comments other then just the points, so if someone from a different category would want to know something specific I'd have to ask if the judge can remember it. Sorry about that.

As to the actual judging, there was not an actual system as such, one thing I can tell you is that we never looked at spelling, grammar and such, at least not as in it's important for the final score. We did look at them simply as a fan, how much we enjoyed reading the story ourselves, how well we thought it was written, that is how good the plot was, how are the characters, how are descriptions of things done, how well does it fit in with The Elder Scrolls universe. I know I looked at those things, and I'm pretty sure most if not all of the other judges also looked at it like that.

But I'll pm you my review, and will ask the other judges if they mind if the views are known to the author.


Posted by: redsrock May 25 2008, 04:45 PM

Yes, please PM me. We have a lot to discuss....

Posted by: Alexander May 25 2008, 04:59 PM

hm, a slight misunderstanding might have occurred, I probably was a tad unclear about the point distribution, each judge made a list of their top ten picks,
the top pick got 10 pts, second pick got 9 points, third pick got 8 points.

So kinda like this;
1. ......... 10pts
2. ......... 9 pts
3. ......... 8 pts

etc, except for the long stories where there was a 2 pts difference like so;
1. ......... 10pts
2. ......... 8 pts
3. ......... 6 pts

I just wanted that to be clear smile.gif

Posted by: redsrock May 25 2008, 05:05 PM

I'm still not clear. For the long stories, how could one get a two? Were there three juges for Long stories? If so, than it is impossible for one to have gotten a 2.

EDIT: Actually, there is a way I could have gotten a two. Two of the judges (if there were indeed three) would have to have given me zeros.

Posted by: Alexander May 25 2008, 05:09 PM

QUOTE(redsrock @ May 25 2008, 06:05 PM) *

I'm still not clear. For the long stories, how could one get a two? Were there three juges for Long stories? If so, than it is impossible for one to have gotten a 2.


It's an equation, 1 judge, picking a story as fifth place gives someone 2 pts, then if no other judges pick that story, then it stays at 2 pts. In the case of the long stories, there were 8 entries and each judge only got to pick 5 stories in their top five. So it is possible that some stories received no points, and some received points from each judge.

Posted by: redsrock May 25 2008, 05:17 PM

Oh, I get it. So if one of the judges didn't pick mine in their top-ten, they I recieve no points? That makes sense, though I do not think it is fair...at all. I don't think the top five, or whatever, if fair. Writers worked very hard on their entries, just to see that they aren't even listed. I understand there is only one winner for each category, but each story should recieve sometihng.

Just to say, "oh I didn't pick them in my Tops I'm not going to give them any points at all". That's just not fair. It's like telling those writers that they wasted their time by not even listing their story and giving them a grade. I'm just really pissed right now. I don't agree at all with how things were dealt with. I guess it doesn't matter either way. I'll still be writing stories, even though apparently some of them are only as good as a "2 out of 30".

A 2 story is something along the lines of, "Teh player slayed the dragon and saved the world. Teh end". That's bull, my story was not a 2. Oh well...

Posted by: Alexander May 25 2008, 05:25 PM

QUOTE(redsrock @ May 25 2008, 06:17 PM) *

Oh, I get it. So if one of the judges didn't pick mine in their top-ten, they I recieve no points? That makes sense, though I do not think it is fair...at all. I don't think the top five, or whatever, if fair. Writers worked very hard on their entries, just to see that they aren't even listed. I understand there is only one winner for each category, but each story should recieve sometihng.

Just to say, "oh I didn't pick them in my Tops I'm not going to give them any points at all". That's just not fair. It's like telling those writers that they wasted their time by not even listing their story and giving them a grade. I'm just really pissed right now. I don't agree at all with how things were dealt with. I guess it doesn't matter either way. I'll still be writing stories, even though apparently some of them are only as good as a "2 out of 30".


Grading each story separately is a possibility yes, however looking at it objectively, it produces the exact same results only looking a tad different. Instead of a number of stories not listed, it would have given us a number of stories only receiving a 1 or 2 out of ten. So while I understand how you might see it as something different, in the end I don't think it's so different from this way. It is different, but not as different as you think.

QUOTE

A 2 story is something along the lines of, "Teh player slayed the dragon and saved the world. Teh end". That's bull, my story was not a 2. Oh well...


No, as I mentioned in private, you should not compare this type of point giving to a 2 out of ten grade like a teacher might give you, it's very different in nature.

Posted by: redsrock May 25 2008, 05:30 PM

I understand (concerning the last part of your post) but surely to god you can understand where I'm coming from, Alex. Just because someone didn't put a story in their top five doesn't mean that story should not get points. That's just a slap in the face to me. At least that's my opinion. I don;t mean to get rude, but this is just unfair to me.

Posted by: Alexander May 25 2008, 05:37 PM

QUOTE(redsrock @ May 25 2008, 06:30 PM) *

I understand (concerning the last part of your post) but surely to god you can understand where I'm coming from, Alex. Just because someone didn't put a story in their top five doesn't mean that story should not get points. That's just a slap in the face to me. At least that's my opinion. I don;t mean to get rude, but this is just unfair to me.


Ok, well perhaps you can explain it to me then, situation A;
A story is given 1/10 by judge nr 1, 1/10 by judge nr 2 and 1/10 by judge nr 3, bringing it to an average of 1/10

Situation B;
A story is not selected by all three judges in their top ten, thus not receiving any points.

Now how would situation A make it easier for the author to accept his story was not selected as winner? Not to say of course that someone might have gotten such a scoring, but there might have been many stories with an average of 5 or 6.

I'm sorry, but like I said in my last post, there is a difference, but is the difference really as large as you perceive it to be? smile.gif



Posted by: Kiln May 25 2008, 05:37 PM

QUOTE(redsrock @ May 25 2008, 04:30 PM) *

I understand (concerning the last part of your post) but surely to god you can understand where I'm coming from, Alex. Just because someone didn't put a story in their top five doesn't mean that story should not get points. That's just a slap in the face to me. At least that's my opinion. I don;t mean to get rude, but this is just unfair to me.
The votes are in mate, relax I'm sure that several people are disappointed with their scores but it doesn't change the fact that whats done is done. I'm not trying to be rude or anything but no matter how much you argue the points are not going to change.

Posted by: redsrock May 25 2008, 05:41 PM

QUOTE(Kiln @ May 25 2008, 05:37 PM) *

but no matter how much you argue the points are not going to change.

Obviously. rolleyes.gif But I am still going to give my opinion. I'm sorry for sounding rude, but I am just someone who will voice their opinion no matter what. Again, I am sorry, I will stop now.

Posted by: Chiglet May 25 2008, 06:03 PM

bluewizardsmile.gif smile.gif Congrats to those who won! smile.gif bluewizardsmile.gif

@ redsrock - valid questions as I'm sure some who didn't place may want to know some of the details of why and how the stories were judged. Might be a help in improving their writing skills. Everyone should definitely keep writing though as all the stories I've read so far have been quite good (even the poetry was well written - maybe a poetry contest next?). And with so many entries, I'm sure the judges had a heck of a time deciding which ones they liked best.

@ Alexander - Much thanks for explaining the scoring system o the community. smile.gif

@ everyone else - Keep writing!!!

Posted by: HaploTR May 25 2008, 06:41 PM

Redsrock -

The entries were judged against each other, not against a grading scale system of 100 or 10. This means that the rankings are not 'grades', but rather placements. Think of the Olympics, with 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place. Our system was the exact same, except without the grades that determine each place. Our placements were awarded sort of arbitrarily, we felt that X was generally better than Y, but not as good as Z, so Z would be above X, which would be above Y. It would take much longer to go through and grade them all specifically, as we would have to grade the content and not just the image.

Also, the reason there was a top 5 instead of top 10 for the long division is because there were only 8 entries. We didn't think it was fair to the dozens of entries in the short and medium category that didn't place, just because there weren't as many long entries. Don't forget, the long stories were often hundreds of pages long.

Having a tighter competition with fewer placements (which means more to those who placed) is more fair than feeling like they got cheated out of a hard-earned placement in a real contest. If 'everyone wins' or gets placed the feeling is diminished somewhat.

---
Everyone, please note that Alex updated his scores post to include a note about the long story division.

There was, in actuality, a three-way tie between the top three contenders. The tie-breaker was another judge reading only the top three entries and deciding their placement against each other. That was the cause of the short delay, which we are very sorry for.

As such I think extra congratulations are in order for the top three rankings of the long category for having such well-written stories. In case anyone is interested, the pre-tiebreaker scores were:

1. The story of Trey, Treydog (20)
1. We are merely shadows, Erika Webb (20)
1. The Tale of Matthias Etanne, Hadrian (20)
4. Bloodlust, The Metal Mallet (16)
5. Dance of the ja-Kha'jay, Lakyan (12)

Posted by: 0rimus May 26 2008, 12:03 AM

I'd like a PM, I'd also like to see all eight entries stacked against one another, not just the top five. Cuz' now not only did I not win (which I don't mind anyway) but now I feel robbed of knowing where I stand. Was I in sixth place? The very bottom? That's the whole reason I entered. Pardon my Deustch, but telling the people left out that we are tied for the worst is pretty, uh, messed up. We all know someone had to lose, but that's just it: one person had to lose, not three.

Posted by: HaploTR May 26 2008, 12:34 AM

Technically if you didn't get 1st, you lost, so there are 7 losers and 1 winner, but lets not be so pessimistic. Your story didn't get any points, as it wasn't in any of the three judges' Top 5 list. Points were awarded (0 for 8th through 6th, 2 for 5th place, 4 for 4th place, 6 for 3rd place, 8 for 2nd place, and 10 for 1st place) by each judge to each entry. So entries that didn't make the top five either received zero points or were awarded too few points.

So really, you have more of a right to gripe than that redsrock fellow; he got two whole points more than you.

Regarding your entry: 'A' comes before 'e' in daedra. Normally we don't criticize spelling, but when a word appears throughout a story as much as this one, it should probably be spelled correctly. Your story was somewhat choppy in key places, and often failed to elaborate on many of the points made throughout. I would have liked a more developed plot, personally.

Posted by: MstrOfPppts May 26 2008, 12:36 AM

Hi everybody!

I'm Andraž from Slovenia and have just registered on this forum. The reason is that I participated in the contest and finished second! Yeah man!

So first I'd like to say thanks a lot to Alexander and all the judges, who had quite a hard work - no doubt. Congratulations to all participants and all the winners especialy Adventurous Putty who beat me (: I realy need to read all those entries emidietly when my study obligations are ower.

@ redrock: simply take it this way: you scored 1002 points out of 1030 which doesn't look so bad as you're describing it. And it also makes sense, since there were thousands of other people out there who could also enter the competition but either didn't take time, didn't bother or didn't even dare ...

@ Orimus: judges have a hard work and I belive they were doing their best. Since there's a tie of stories having no points, there is no point in having a judge making order of those. The judging system was as it was and noone meened no harm to anybody. They will probably make it better next time. But I do agree that they should mention all the entries in the results making them all score the same place.

@ both: scoring no points or 2 is far from meaning your story sux. It just means that the other were slightly better!

@ Alexander: thanks again and keep up the good work! I'll be visiting this place from time to time, but since I'm registered to many different forums, I'd like to recieve an email notification for any future competitions if that is possible.

Best regards!

Posted by: Jordy May 26 2008, 12:55 AM

QUOTE(0rimus @ May 26 2008, 12:03 AM) *

I'd like a PM, I'd also like to see all eight entries stacked against one another, not just the top five. ... Pardon my Deustch, but telling the people left out that we are tied for the worst is pretty, uh, messed up. We all know someone had to lose, but that's just it: one person had to lose, not three.



The downside of that is that it's effectively singling out one person as being bottom. I've seen that happen before in a fanfic competition where a category had only 4 entries, and a 1st 2nd and 3rd were announced, leaving one entrant in the position of not only being "last", but also the only one to not get a placing (and it's not that her story was significantly poorer than the others, there wasn't much to choose between them)

She was quite upset and felt that given the paucity of entries, announcing only the winner would have been more tactful.

If you want to know exactly where you stood, of course that's your right, but I'm not sure making it all public would have been the best idea...

If I were to make one comment about the way the competition was judged (and it isn't meant as an attack on the judges, or a whine) I'd have to say I was a bit surprised that spelling and grammar weren't taken into account - IMHO, a couple of typos aren't a problem but when there are repeated spelling mistakes, and grammar errors of the sort that make sentences sound awkward, then doesn't that affect the quality of the whole story?

Edit: OK, I see from HaploTR's last post that spelling was considered...I guess I see quite a few fanfic stories that seem to draw unqualified praise despite having some really unwieldy sentences and odd choices of words, so my POV would be that it actually helps us all improve if such things are made a factor in the judging of competitions.

And note that I'm not picking on anyone's entry here. Congratulations to the winners, of course, and I hope you all enjoy your prizes.

Posted by: BSD-IES May 26 2008, 01:06 AM

Yeah, of course it does. In all honesty I did include spelling, grammar, sentence construction etc in the way I viewed the entries I judged. I just didn't specifically judge it on that criteria - but it was very much in my mind as to my overall view of the piece. That's what we meant, it wasn't scored on how many spelling mistakes, or misused words there were, but those facts obviously contribute to the overall impression we came away with.

Posted by: Jordy May 26 2008, 01:09 AM

Fine, BSD-IES, thanks for the clarification smile.gif

Posted by: redsrock May 26 2008, 01:11 AM

QUOTE(HaploTR @ May 26 2008, 12:34 AM) *



So really, you have more of a right to gripe than that redsrock fellow; he got two whole points more than you.

I will gripe all I want, when I want, how I want, and wherever I want. Oooooh, I scored two points high, so that's mean I don't have near as much of a right to gripe. *EXTREME sarcasm*. Whatever, man, you go ahead and think what you want....

Posted by: 0rimus May 26 2008, 01:13 AM

QUOTE(HaploTR @ May 25 2008, 04:34 PM) *

Technically if you didn't get 1st, you lost, so there are 7 losers and 1 winner, but lets not be so pessimistic. Your story didn't get any points, as it wasn't in any of the three judges' Top 5 list. Points were awarded (0 for 8th through 6th, 2 for 5th place, 4 for 4th place, 6 for 3rd place, 8 for 2nd place, and 10 for 1st place) by each judge to each entry. So entries that didn't make the top five either received zero points or were awarded too few points.

So really, you have more of a right to gripe than that redsrock fellow; he got two whole points more than you.

Regarding your entry: 'A' comes before 'e' in daedra. Normally we don't criticize spelling, but when a word appears throughout a story as much as this one, it should probably be spelled correctly. Your story was somewhat choppy in key places, and often failed to elaborate on many of the points made throughout. I would have liked a more developed plot, personally.


Thanks for giving me something to chew on. And I was already aware of the aforementioned bits; what I meant was that someone had to come last, in eighth place. Normally I'd agree with the whole "don't take it personally, it's just a game," kind of philosophy, but it just isn't. With all the stories ranked first to eight, I could go back and compare and contrast, but I can't without knowing where I am. Going from just outside the "winners corner" (sixth place) to the bottom is alot of difference. I'll admit something: I started writing only after hearing about the competition. I didn't join this site and the competition for the prizes, but to see where others think I am as a writer. I don't do this for fun, I find the act of typing and writing painful, but because I love the stories, and am planning on writing as a career. When I looked down at the results, I got that drum roll as I dramatically slid the page down. After checking in for a whole month, I'd finally get something. Instead I got nothing. My grin faded as I saw that not only did I not even get fifth in ANY of the three judges picks, but that it ended there: Not even worth a simple #8 Heraldry and Heretics by Steve Wimer. Nothing. It felt like no one had even read my story at all. I can't really say I appreciate the judges holding this competition as it feels like they didn't even read my 49 page story. Which, while yes, as I said, I didn't start till the competition, but I poured my sweat and blood into this thing. I wanted something short (at least for a long catagory) but filled with depth and realism. Two out of three of Haplo's points are spelling and grammatical. I bought a sword so I could feel what real swordplay was like, even inviting some friends over to spar. I did extensive reasearch on both the TES world, and real medieval and Roman times. I even got in a fight at school to feel the real kinetisism of a full-on brawl(not solely for the story, obviously). I spent hours talking to aquantinces to get a taste of real personalities. Obviously the judges must enjoy reading somewhat, otherwise this would have never taken place, so the judges get the benefit of reading my story, and what do I get: A slap in the face. I'm sorry for wasting your time, and my own for something I though might acctually get mentioned. I'm sorry for trying so damn hard. Maybe, in the end my story just sucked, but I cannot see it that way, so I must be blind and stupid. I'm not being dramatic, I'm not crying at my computer as I write this. It's like handing in a 49 page essay to a teacher and getting back... nothing. And failing the class at the end of the year. All I got is this: "What was the point?" I'm not angry or jealous, or anything like that. I am confused mellow.gif

Posted by: redsrock May 26 2008, 01:17 AM

Exactly, Orimus. Well said...

Posted by: 0rimus May 26 2008, 01:27 AM

QUOTE(Jordy @ May 25 2008, 04:55 PM) *

QUOTE(0rimus @ May 26 2008, 12:03 AM) *

I'd like a PM, I'd also like to see all eight entries stacked against one another, not just the top five. ... Pardon my Deustch, but telling the people left out that we are tied for the worst is pretty, uh, messed up. We all know someone had to lose, but that's just it: one person had to lose, not three.



The downside of that is that it's effectively singling out one person as being bottom. I've seen that happen before in a fanfic competition where a category had only 4 entries, and a 1st 2nd and 3rd were announced, leaving one entrant in the position of not only being "last", but also the only one to not get a placing (and it's not that her story was significantly poorer than the others, there wasn't much to choose between them)

She was quite upset and felt that given the paucity of entries, announcing only the winner would have been more tactful.

If you want to know exactly where you stood, of course that's your right, but I'm not sure making it all public would have been the best idea...

If I were to make one comment about the way the competition was judged (and it isn't meant as an attack on the judges, or a whine) I'd have to say I was a bit surprised that spelling and grammar weren't taken into account - IMHO, a couple of typos aren't a problem but when there are repeated spelling mistakes, and grammar errors of the sort that make sentences sound awkward, then doesn't that affect the quality of the whole story?

Edit: OK, I see from HaploTR's last post that spelling was considered...I guess I see quite a few fanfic stories that seem to draw unqualified praise despite having some really unwieldy sentences and odd choices of words, so my POV would be that it actually helps us all improve if such things are made a factor in the judging of competitions.

And note that I'm not picking on anyone's entry here. Congratulations to the winners, of course, and I hope you all enjoy your prizes.



QUOTE(Jordy @ May 25 2008, 05:09 PM) *

Fine, BSD-IES, thanks for the clarification smile.gif



I just tried to convice myself that having the competition at all was better than without it, but I still can't believe it. Also, I agree that the placing doesn't need to be public, it's just that I'd rather be known as the Jew that rose up against the Nazis, not as just another corpse among the millions, unknown. Also, I was explicitly told that grammar and spelling were not to even be a slight factor, otherwise I'd have put more work into that. Again with the essay analogy: Teacher hands you an project; she says "Do your essay on WW2, but don't go into the Holocaust". And then you get a low score because, well dang, you didn't write about the Holocaust. I was trying to make my STORY excellent, which I think it was, with a total work time of 15 or so days, most of which I didn't have access to a computer or my story. So yes I cut corners, but my description, characters, and plot hardly suffered from it. My family, friends, and myself can say it was a great stroy all they want, but without outside critique, again: "What was the point?"

Posted by: redsrock May 26 2008, 01:31 AM

Yeah, I totally agree again, Orimus. It's like a slap to the face of everyone that didn't get scored high enough to even make the list. It's terrible, absolutely terrible. Especially when someone I know entered a story that is ten times as good as mine (and without the spelling mistakes that were NOT supposed to matter), and they got a 5, a mere three point difference from my story. The scoring is terrbile, absolutely terrible. yeah, yeah, call me a whiner, I don't really care right about now.

The right people won, I give you that, but the way the scoring went is absolutely horrendous. Very pathetic...

Posted by: 0rimus May 26 2008, 01:39 AM

More analogies. You're in court, you state your case, show hard evidence, given only a short deadline, and the jurers come back and condemn you to death, with no explination. You can ask why later, but you're already annoyed, sitting in a jail cell.

Your friend shoots you in the foot, your emotions surge, but you can't really do anything. You wait patiently and try to calm down. (And after a while I have calmed a great deal). But it doesn't change the fact you got shot in the foot.

Oh, and congrats to the winners. I was so distracted by this I haven't even got around to saying that.

Posted by: BSD-IES May 26 2008, 02:03 AM

Oh for God's sake. We can't give you a specific final rundown on how you scored, because like we've already said only the top five picks for each judge were picked.

Think about it. We have to judge consistently - that means the same judging system for each section - short, medium and long. Do you honestly believe those who judged the short stories should have rated them from 1-30? Maybe given each one a specific percentage? That is totally unrealistic. All the judges have done this for love, in their free time after work or whatever. How much time do you think we all have? I work full time, live with my fiance and have been spending almost all of my free time reading entries. On top of which we had a deadline to judge by. There is no perfect system of judging, fullstop. We've done the best we could.

As for the spelling issue, which I'm amazed is an issue at all, we didn't specifically mark stories down on that. The point Haplo was making was that a key word, Daedra, which I think we'd all agree is fairly important in a TES story was misspelt ALL the way through the ENTIRE story. It didn't get marked down because of that specifically but it does SCREAM sloppy and unedited. Let's be honest, that is not the impression you want to give in a story you've entered in a competition.

Finally, like I already said, we can't give you a final rundown, as we don't have one. I can give you my final table that I used myself though. I'll do this for this category (long) only, seeing as there were only 8 entries. I will not do it for the medium category, as I didn't rate them from 1 to bloody 27 (one of the judges had to drop out, so I ended up being one of the judges for that as well, which is how I've spent my last week), I literally did just pick my ten favourite for that, then chose which order they went in. I am prepared to show my ten finalists for the medium section if requested though.

My long story table ran like this:

1. The Story of Trey
2. The Tale of Matthias Etanne
3. Dance of the ja-Kha'jay
4. Bloodlust
5. We Are Merely Shadows
6. The Accounts of Rayden
7. Knife
8. Heraldry and Heretics

Sidenote: We Are Merely Shadows and The Accounts of Rayden were tied in fifth place in my original ballot. I asked the opinion of the other judges if I could have a tie, and the general consensus was that it would complicate matters. I reread them both and made the difficult decision you see above.

Can this please put a stop to this now? We tried the best we could, in the time we had, in amongst all the other things going on in our lives to judge as well as possible. Sadly irritating things like working, paying the mortgage and bills keep getting in the way. If someone wants to pay me to be a judge, so I don't have to work, I'm sure I could have done it better. Sadly, no-one has offered to hire me to read and judge fanfics full time. I wish they would...


Posted by: redsrock May 26 2008, 02:12 AM

Yeah, I understand that, BSD, but I still don't agree. And getting mad and telling us to stop will not work. AND telling about your real life worries won't help either. i don't need that story, I know how it is.

Try going to school, working 30+ hours a week, working as Sports Editor for your school newspapers, and going through 4 different surgeries in a four month period, AND going to physical therapy for those surgeries 2 sometimes three times a week. I know what a hectic schedule is, so don't give me that story...

Posted by: BSD-IES May 26 2008, 02:28 AM

QUOTE(redsrock @ May 26 2008, 02:12 AM) *

Yeah, I understand that, BSD, but I still don't agree. And getting mad and telling us to stop will not work. AND telling about your real life worries won't help either. i don't need that story, I know how it is.

Try going to school, working 30+ hours a week, working as Sports Editor for your school newspapers, and going through 4 different surgeries in a four month period, AND going to physical therapy for those surgeries 2 sometimes three times a week. I know what a hectic schedule is, so don't give me that story...


I asked you to stop - actually it wasn't just aimed at you - not told you to. You have the right to ask, but the answer will remain the same I'm afraid. As for the hectic schedule bit, I'm simply pointing out that this contest wasn't the only thing we had to do. As you know you have to juggle things as best you can. That's what we did. You've judged contests yourself, you know it isn't easy, you have to strike a balance. I've posted up my results, in order, as requested. I can't give you the other judges results, as I don't know 6-8th place for them. If they want to post that they can. What else were you guys wanting, I thought that was what you both asked for.

Posted by: redsrock May 26 2008, 02:31 AM

Fine, whatever. I do happen to have respect for you, BSD, so I will stop, even if I really REALLY do not want to. To be honest, you coming along probably saved me from getting banned. I guess that's one thing I can thank you for...

Posted by: 0rimus May 26 2008, 02:34 AM

I wrote with no thought of reward. My 90+ hours of typing and reasearch. I read all the long stories in about an hour or two. I appreciate your time spent on reading all the stories, I really do. But why is it that no one seems to apprecite the time I spent on this, or the others for that matter? I know that I cut corners, I already said that, but still I worked hard too, and I also have a life to live as well. I really wish that I could turn this into a gunfight, making it personal. But, I'm not that kind of person. Not a five year old. I wish I could throw a tantrum, all my screams and curses so well founded and justified, I could go on for enternity. But I'll be mature, and state things solely on logic. A mispell is a mispell, did you catch where I put Groh' Cash instead of gro-Malog? If it pains you guys to read our stories, too much of a draw on your time, then I must ask why you do it. No ones paying you to judge? No ones paying me to write. Given; I had the constipulation of a reward, but it wasn't much in return for my efforts. You say there is no perfect system; I agree. But it could easily be made better. An e-mail. The simplest solution. E-mail us our placement, we had to send our stories in, so you have our e-mails. A PM would work, but then how are you to know who is who? Steven = Orimus. Maybe I entered with the wrong state of mind. I wrote to write, not to win things. If went the whole story spelling the as teh, it wouldn't matter so long as the judges could understand what I meant. The bridge between daedra and deadra is not so bad. And if I lost for that singular reason, or even all the ones Haplo mentioned, then I'm worried.

Whipped out the caps and the bold, eh?
"That my weak words have struck but thus much show of fire from Brutus."

Posted by: BSD-IES May 26 2008, 02:46 AM

QUOTE(0rimus @ May 26 2008, 02:34 AM) *

The bridge between daedra and deadra is not so bad. And if I lost for that singular reason, or even all the ones Haplo mentioned, then I'm worried.


No offence, but that isn't the reason you didn't win. I already said that I didn't count spelling mistakes specifically. I was judging the entries against the other entries. In my opinion - and I can only speak for my results, not the other judges - the order I put the stories in reflects both how much I enjoyed reading them and how well I thought they expressed the ideas behind them. Simple as that. Believe me, I enjoyed reading all the stories, and they all had elements to recommend them, but I had to choose which ones spoke to me the most. Which characters were brought to life, which plot devices had me on the edge of my seat, which turn of phrase had me chuckling with pleasure. My results show my opinion, and my opinion only. That's why we had three judges for each section, to discover those stories that spoke to a majority of us.

Posted by: 0rimus May 26 2008, 02:51 AM

QUOTE(BSD-IES @ May 25 2008, 06:46 PM) *

QUOTE(0rimus @ May 26 2008, 02:34 AM) *

The bridge between daedra and deadra is not so bad. And if I lost for that singular reason, or even all the ones Haplo mentioned, then I'm worried.


No offence, but that isn't the reason you didn't win. I already said that I didn't count spelling mistakes specifically. I was judging the entries against the other entries. In my opinion - and I can only speak for my results, not the other judges - the order I put the stories in reflects both how much I enjoyed reading them and how well I thought they expressed the ideas behind them. Simple as that. Believe me, I enjoyed reading all the stories, and they all had elements to recommend them, but I had to choose which ones spoke to me the most. Which characters were brought to life, which plot devices had me on the edge of my seat, which turn of phrase had me chuckling with pleasure. My results show my opinion, and my opinion only. That's why we had three judges for each section, to discover those stories that spoke to a majority of us.


Thank you. Now all I ask is this: What made you not enjoy my story as much? From the last short story competition there was a short explination for each one. Sure, there are alot more stories for this one, but that short paragraph of criticism is all I want. You shouldn't nessisarily give a review for every story, that'd be alot. But c'mon, I'm asking specifically, and nicely.

Posted by: Chiglet May 26 2008, 02:54 AM

@ BSD-IES et al - Suggestion, if I may, for future possible contests. While the rules for entering and judging read quite clearly to me, I;'ve noticed that at least one other time entrants have become confused or unclear on the hows of the judging. Perhaps a description of HOW things will be judged could be put out to prevent possible future misunderstndings.

****
As for the way things were judged, I think we all need to remember that none of these people are professional writers and that judging is/was subjective (ie- uindividual opinions and how the words moved them). They also all have thier own personal lives and having them go through thier groups of stories in just one month is a feat I certainly would not want to have to do. They did a damn good job with what time they had I think

I was wondering, for word count, were words such as a an, & the counted? I know they aren't when selling one's news story to papers and such. smile.gif As for grammar and spelling, well it wasn't in the rules that those things would or wouldn't be looked at or taken into consideration.

If the judges are willing, they could probably PM those who ask about their rankings so that those people might see where they ended up. Personally, I don't care where I ended up as it's enough to know that a few others at least glanced at my story. smile.gif I'm considering putting it up in the regular story area for potential constructive criticism. unsure.gif (btw, I ignore "it sucked because it sucked" commentary smile.gif )


@ 0rimus - Keep writing!!!!! Post your work on the forums that have areas for fan-fic. You'll get better each time you put pen to paper. The way you went about with the research for your story was fantastic. Keep it up and you'll go far. viking.gif (uhm, no I haven't read your story yet. still working on the smaller ones)


Still hoping that a poetry contest is next cause I suck at poetry laugh.gif
Now, no more quibbling pretty please? wub.gif Or they'll lock this thread sooner rather than later. smile.gif


Posted by: 0rimus May 26 2008, 02:58 AM

*bows* Thank you Chiglet. I'm working on slow-moving sequel, so I might post it here.

P.S, It's soooooooo nice to have infinite time to write.

Posted by: LeTren Thundakk May 26 2008, 04:12 AM

Well, that sucks...I wasn't bothered I didn't win...AT ALL.

That list bums the hell out of me, though...

Posted by: Alexander May 26 2008, 07:26 AM

QUOTE(0rimus @ May 26 2008, 02:13 AM) *

Thanks for giving me something to chew on. And I was already aware of the aforementioned bits; what I meant was that someone had to come last, in eighth place. Normally I'd agree with the whole "don't take it personally, it's just a game," kind of philosophy, but it just isn't. With all the stories ranked first to eight, I could go back and compare and contrast, but I can't without knowing where I am. Going from just outside the "winners corner" (sixth place) to the bottom is alot of difference. I'll admit something: I started writing only after hearing about the competition. I didn't join this site and the competition for the prizes, but to see where others think I am as a writer. I don't do this for fun, I find the act of typing and writing painful, but because I love the stories, and am planning on writing as a career. When I looked down at the results, I got that drum roll as I dramatically slid the page down. After checking in for a whole month, I'd finally get something. Instead I got nothing. My grin faded as I saw that not only did I not even get fifth in ANY of the three judges picks, but that it ended there: Not even worth a simple #8 Heraldry and Heretics by Steve Wimer. Nothing. It felt like no one had even read my story at all. I can't really say I appreciate the judges holding this competition as it feels like they didn't even read my 49 page story. Which, while yes, as I said, I didn't start till the competition, but I poured my sweat and blood into this thing. I wanted something short (at least for a long catagory) but filled with depth and realism. Two out of three of Haplo's points are spelling and grammatical. I bought a sword so I could feel what real swordplay was like, even inviting some friends over to spar. I did extensive reasearch on both the TES world, and real medieval and Roman times. I even got in a fight at school to feel the real kinetisism of a full-on brawl(not solely for the story, obviously). I spent hours talking to aquantinces to get a taste of real personalities. Obviously the judges must enjoy reading somewhat, otherwise this would have never taken place, so the judges get the benefit of reading my story, and what do I get: A slap in the face. I'm sorry for wasting your time, and my own for something I though might acctually get mentioned. I'm sorry for trying so damn hard. Maybe, in the end my story just sucked, but I cannot see it that way, so I must be blind and stupid. I'm not being dramatic, I'm not crying at my computer as I write this. It's like handing in a 49 page essay to a teacher and getting back... nothing. And failing the class at the end of the year. All I got is this: "What was the point?" I'm not angry or jealous, or anything like that. I am confused mellow.gif


Ok, but I'm going to ask you something I also asked Redsrock, would you have felt better about it if your story had been listed as 8th place? Would you have felt better about it if we had used a grading scale and your story had only gotten a 2/10 for example? I'm not saying it would have scored as low, but please ask yourself this, if your story had ended higher, would you have perceived the system still to be as flawed and unfair as you do now?


QUOTE(redsrock @ May 26 2008, 02:31 AM) *

Yeah, I totally agree again, Orimus. It's like a slap to the face of everyone that didn't get scored high enough to even make the list. It's terrible, absolutely terrible. Especially when someone I know entered a story that is ten times as good as mine (and without the spelling mistakes that were NOT supposed to matter), and they got a 5, a mere three point difference from my story. The scoring is terrbile, absolutely terrible. yeah, yeah, call me a whiner, I don't really care right about now.

The right people won, I give you that, but the way the scoring went is absolutely horrendous. Very pathetic...


Are you speaking here about the fact that the list was posted? Or about the system again? While I'm always in favor of free speech, and always allow criticism, and against what you apparently think, would not ban anyone from this forum for it, I hope in time you'll be able to accept this as it is, and move on.

QUOTE(0rimus @ May 26 2008, 03:51 AM) *

Thank you. Now all I ask is this: What made you not enjoy my story as much? From the last short story competition there was a short explination for each one. Sure, there are alot more stories for this one, but that short paragraph of criticism is all I want. You shouldn't nessisarily give a review for every story, that'd be alot. But c'mon, I'm asking specifically, and nicely.


As you probably figured by now, I too judged the long story category, and if you're interested I'll tell you my thoughts on your story, though perhaps that would be better left to a pm.


QUOTE(Chiglet @ May 26 2008, 03:54 AM) *

@ BSD-IES et al - Suggestion, if I may, for future possible contests. While the rules for entering and judging read quite clearly to me, I;'ve noticed that at least one other time entrants have become confused or unclear on the hows of the judging. Perhaps a description of HOW things will be judged could be put out to prevent possible future misunderstndings.


Well, apart from the actual point giving system, we had, or BSD had, mentioned earlier in this thread what we would be looking at. To be honest, I think that's far more important to know when you're entering in a competition then knowing how the judges judge amongst themselves. Though that's just my opinion.

QUOTE

As for the way things were judged, I think we all need to remember that none of these people are professional writers and that judging is/was subjective (ie- uindividual opinions and how the words moved them). They also all have thier own personal lives and having them go through thier groups of stories in just one month is a feat I certainly would not want to have to do. They did a damn good job with what time they had I think


Thank you smile.gif

QUOTE

I was wondering, for word count, were words such as a an, & the counted? I know they aren't when selling one's news story to papers and such. smile.gif As for grammar and spelling, well it wasn't in the rules that those things would or wouldn't be looked at or taken into consideration.


I'm the one who judges all the stories on word count, and to be honest, I let Microsoft word (do I get a fee for mentioning it's name or do I have to pay Microsoft for it? wink.gif ) do all the work for me here. That's the standard; Microsoft's standard word count. If that either includes or excludes & and the likes, I'm not entirely certain, I used it simply to make sure there was one standard, and of course so I wouldn't have to count all the words myself wink.gif

QUOTE

If the judges are willing, they could probably PM those who ask about their rankings so that those people might see where they ended up. Personally, I don't care where I ended up as it's enough to know that a few others at least glanced at my story. smile.gif I'm considering putting it up in the regular story area for potential constructive criticism. unsure.gif (btw, I ignore "it sucked because it sucked" commentary smile.gif )


Well, if any writers for the long story category would want it, I wouldn't have a problem with sharing what I thought about the story. I'll pm them it of course. So if anyone's interested, drop me a pm or mention it in this thread, and I'll pm it.


Lastly, reading over this thread I'd like to apologize, I made the call to post the entire lists of results on the forums here without consulting any of the other judges, and in hindsight, I don't think I would do it again. Not because I'm afraid of criticism or for "covering something up" but more because I think some of the things that have been discussed in this thread, might have been a lot better off discussed in private.

Posted by: 0rimus May 26 2008, 07:33 AM

I'd like to know Alex. I don't care if it's in this thread or PM, (in fact I'd prefer the thread, that way others besides me can learn from my mistakes). I'd also like to know where I placed in your set. You can just tell me my number, in case the others don't want their ranking known or whatever.

Posted by: raggidman May 26 2008, 11:13 AM

There is an open Competition thread in Fan Fiction intended for people to comment on the stories in the Competition unofficially. Maybe now that the results are in I will bump it and maybe more people would like to comment there?

Really there were so many fascinating stories in the compatition that I do not mind who won it (especially as there are not any big cash prizes wink.gif [admitted it would be fine to have a signed copy] ) so long as they were good reads.

I do hope there will be another competition and that even more people will enter.

It would be decent to see how each individual story did and what the judges were thinking of them (as happened last time) ... it is only courteous to those who have also put their reputations on the line by entering this Competition. If anyone is shy about this then they are not suitable as judges though they may be fine people otherwise.

Chiglet seems to have some fair points, but since literary appreciation is such a personal thing I prefer the rules to be relaxed and the opinions of the judges to be displayed. I am not so happy with trying to define 'requirements' too closely in a modder's environment as that interferes with a writer's natural development in a way that is too impersonal. And I do not want the rules to become more important than the writing.

Kudos to all the winners!!!! goodjob.gif

Posted by: BSD-IES May 26 2008, 11:45 AM

QUOTE(raggidman @ May 26 2008, 11:13 AM) *

There is an open Competition thread in Fan Fiction intended for people to comment on the stories in the Competition unofficially. Maybe now that the results are in I will bump it and maybe more people would like to comment there?

It would be decent to see how each individual story did and what the judges were thinking of them (as happened last time) ... it is only courteous to those who have also put their reputations on the line by entering this Competition. If anyone is shy about this then they are not suitable as judges though they may be fine people otherwise.


I'd like to respond to these 2 points. Second one first. I agreed to judge the long story category, so I'm prepared to post my thoughts for those 8 stories. This will not be an in depth analysis, but will basically show what I thought to be the pro's and cons for each of them. That isn't a problem. However... as I mentioned earlier in this thread, one of the judges for the medium section had to drop out at the last minute, so I ended up being one of the judges for that as well. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to write my thoughts on all 27 medium entries as well, I just don't have the time. I stepped in there to help out, so that the results wouldn't be delayed, pure and simple.

Which leads me to the first point you made. There is a thread by Raggidman for people who'd like to comment on the entries, or you could post your entries up bit by bit in the fanfic section and get feedback from people there. I know people have spent a lot of time and effort on these, and it's only natural to want to get feedback, so why not offer each other feedback? If you read a story and feel it should have done better, say so. The results only reflect the judges opinions, you could each offer your own opinions as well. If they don't match ours, that's fine. All opinions (judges or otherwise) are subjective.

Posted by: Alexander May 26 2008, 11:52 AM

QUOTE(raggidman @ May 26 2008, 12:13 PM) *

It would be decent to see how each individual story did and what the judges were thinking of them (as happened last time) ... it is only courteous to those who have also put their reputations on the line by entering this Competition. If anyone is shy about this then they are not suitable as judges though they may be fine people otherwise.


Yeah, I think BSD summed it up nicely. It's not too much work writing up a small thing about 8 stories, but it's quite another thing to do it about 25+ stories, especially when you're only combining it with work, school, kids, a wife, girlfriend and whatnot.

Unfortunately, I don't think it will be possible to get such detailed reviews about each story.

Posted by: MstrOfPppts May 26 2008, 01:20 PM

I have to make my opinion here about the spelling mistakes!

Of course they shouldn't metter if it wasn't said they would. And of course I belive they didn't as long as it was a mistake like spelling letter with just one t and similar. But,

QUOTE(0rimus @ May 26 2008, 03:34 AM) *

... If went the whole story spelling the as teh, it wouldn't matter so long as the judges could understand what I meant.

Of course that would matter! Because put it the other way. In the rules it was clearly said you have to write about the world in the TES universe not about the leet game 1337, OMG! And writing about the universe which is thousands of years before computers in a geek language just doesn't feel all right!

QUOTE(0rimus @ May 26 2008, 03:34 AM) *

The bridge between daedra and deadra is not so bad. And if I lost for that singular reason, or even all the ones Haplo mentioned, then I'm worried.

Exact the same point! Mentioning the deadra through out the whole story doesn't make you feel you are in the TES universe. Although everybody knows what was ment.

You said you feel like judges didn't even read your story. And what if the judges think that you have never played or seen a TES game? Not that for entering the competition you should, but it surely helps. Or they can even say you posess a cracked version of all titles in which daedra is actually spelled deadra.

I think that for every mature person the rules and everything done about the competition wass as it was supposed to be.

Take me for example, I finished second although as I roughly went through the entries am the only one makig the visual look of the story as well. Even if it was not said it was going to be rated, I did it and realy hope it didn't cause trouble to judges or gave me any extra points. It was just the way I felt that other day I started writing my entry ...

Posted by: raggidman May 26 2008, 03:33 PM

To BSD-IES and Alexander - Fair enough - courtesy gives way to practicality as required - and I will not have a go at you for stepping in at the last moment to save the day - that was very kind BSD-IES goodjob.gif It won't change my mind generally about wanting to read what the judges were thinking though whistling.gif

For Orimus, I think you are very lucky to have got feedback. But I will say this: this is a writing competition and most of the terms thereof were open. If you couldn't be bothered or failed to take the time to go through your entry and correct every tiny little mistake then YOU are to blame. Really you have failed on the basis of one of the most elementary criteria to respect the competition. As in the other writers and the efforts they have made.

I suggest you read my story and tell me if you can find 1 single spelling or other gramatical error or weakness. There are a couple there, but hard to spot I think. I had not finished polishing when the deadline arrived = my bad.

Waaaiiit a minute, you think your story was better than mine Orimus, so you deserve special consideration? I assure you it was not tongue.gif Mine was hastily, but most carefully and purposefully thought through and written. I have have very strong and all positive feedback from some very hard to please, highly respected and professional people. So I know for a fact that my story was most excellent rofl. And two of the poems in my story are masterpieces - as in world class. But so what? If one or all of these judges had different taste what does world class actually mean? Not much use to me if the rest of the world takes 90 years to recognise the fact. Really, who cares?

Take the words of the late great Sir Stanley Matthews to heart. He was a great footballer when English football really meant something. During one match at half time he was approached by a journalist who asked how he felt about a brutal and scything foul that had taken him down just before the end of the half.

Sir Stanley replied: It doesn't really bother me, because I know that next time I will stroll past him.

Heh - now the guys at TR can say they were justified in calling me a big head, maybe I am, so what? But I hope I am not going to get into the habit of complaining - because that takes too much time, I don't have that much left and I have things to do. What you could do is write another story, write it brighter, darker, bigger, better and prove you are the best, and not me. One thing is for sure, this competition is all over and done with bar the yakking and shouting. Take care - raggidman smile.gif

Posted by: Jordy May 26 2008, 07:38 PM

QUOTE(raggidman @ May 26 2008, 03:33 PM) *


I suggest you read my story and tell me if you can find 1 single spelling or other gramatical error or weakness. There are a couple there, but hard to spot I think. I had not finished polishing when the deadline arrived = my bad.


You may not have been talking to me specifically, but it's an open thread, so since you raise the subject... biggrin.gif

There are a few things I would have picked up on, had I been proofing your story. Smooth for example is misspelt twice, and there's one instance of use of it's rather than its (for the possessive) I also noticed a few punctuation mistakes, and several complex sentences which I think should have been broken up by commas rather than just running on.

Picky? You betcha. All in all these are very minor things that barely affect the overall piece (which is very good, although not exactly the kind of story I personally would favour - we all have our own tastes, after all.)

Although there's nothing wrong in taking pride in a job well done, I just think you're coming over a bit cocky in your last post smile.gif




Posted by: 0rimus May 26 2008, 08:16 PM

Well gee I'm sorry. Sorry that no one's taken into consideration that I was UNABLE to have enough time to repair my story. I'm not illiterate, I've had above a college reading level since the fourth grade. I wasn't able to fix some of those problems for one big reason: I had to use my sisters computer. Right now, I'm on a Mac, which has Textedit (which sucks) but it won't let me save anything for some reason, it crashes my crappy Macintosh. So in order to type I had to get my sister to enter the password on her PC, and had to get off if she wanted to use her computer, which was all the time. I also couldn't type when she wasn't here, and since she's a college student, that's most of the time. I have a mild form of OCD, I caught all those mistakes and then some, but was unable to do anything. As with earlier on, with the judges, it seems like some of you haven't read my story, and are making MONSTEROUSLY PRETENCIOUS ASSUMPTIONS based solely on what has transpired in this thread. I wasn't lyinjg when I said I put more than 90+ hours of work in, but as far as acctually typing the story, I did that in about 3 hours. Most of you I'm sure, have your own PC, but alas, I have a Mac. And as for the whole, "You're lucky to have gotten feedback...", perhaps, but I wouldn't have gotten any if I hadn't made the previous posts wink.gif

Posted by: BSD-IES May 26 2008, 09:05 PM

QUOTE(0rimus @ May 26 2008, 08:16 PM) *

As with earlier on, with the judges, it seems like some of you haven't read my story


Explain that comment please. What do you mean, the judges didn't read your story?

Posted by: paragenic May 26 2008, 09:12 PM


Yeah, I've been travelling the past two days, and I've just returned and seen a lot has happened...

I'll be honest with all of you - my first reaction was total surprise and a bit of disappointment too since I wasn't expecting the results to be published till the 1st of June. Should this contest ever be organised again in the future I would strongly recommend picking a date and time that the results would be announced and sticking with it. Why? BECAUSE I'M READING THE STORIES STILL AND YOU'VE GONE AND SPOILED PART OF MY FUN! nono.gif If it had been stated from the beginning "winners will be announced on the 25th of May" then I would have made it a point of reading more quickly, and I would have made sure that I had read all of the stories myself by that time. Now I'm too late.

My second reaction was even more surprise when I read the actual results of the category in which I had read the most stories (medium length). Before I go any further, please allow me to congratulate the winner. Now that's over, I regret I must share with you all that I SERIOUSLY disagree with the results. There were stories in this category that did not receive any points (not even in the post by Alexander that contained the extended rankings) that deserve at the very least some feedback. I am bewildered that "The Cursed
Sewers" received actual points and that the story with the gunpowder was not disqualified for its glaring anachronisms and many resemblance to the television series "Sharpe". It does not do justice to stories such as "Ripples in the Stream", "The Unsung", and "Dagothlivion" where an enormous effort obviously went in to creating an imaginative storyline (plusses to Dagothlivion), lore, and even creating stories around details in the game that would appeal to a true fan (plusses to The Unsung and to Ripples in the Stream).

Instead I see that "Tales of a Scaled Knight" with its imbalanced antagonists and zipping-into-space plot comes in sixth? The plot is so out there, even the protangonist forgets it by the end of the story. "Fall of the West" with its tiresome parade of unfamiliar proper nouns comes in second? "The Last Dance" which has no plot at all and hardly transcends the description of a duel comes in fourth? "Eyes of the Heavens" which has unbelievably incompetent assassins characters comes in fifth? And there is not even mention of "Ripples in the Stream", "Dagothlivion", "The Unsung" or "The King of Daenia"? Not even a single point? BOO I say. Again, I say BOOO!

mad.gif

I feel too strongly that things are not right to be polite at this point. I challenge the results and it is obvious to me one of the two following must be true: Either #1 there was no objective scoring process that was applied consistently for everyone or #2 there are criteria that have not been communicated (and should have been communicated) from the beginning in the form of guidelines to submitters.

"Dagothlivion" is a damn good story that succeeds in painting a human side to Ascended Sleepers and Ash Zombies. And has people using Cliff Racers for transportation! And barrels of water on the planes of Oblivion! For chrissake, how ingenious is that? To not award it even a single point is simply incorrect. One hundred times BOOOO to the judges.







Posted by: Alexander May 26 2008, 09:45 PM

QUOTE(0rimus @ May 26 2008, 09:16 PM) *

Well gee I'm sorry. Sorry that no one's taken into consideration that I was UNABLE to have enough time to repair my story. I'm not illiterate, I've had above a college reading level since the fourth grade. I wasn't able to fix some of those problems for one big reason: I had to use my sisters computer. Right now, I'm on a Mac, which has Textedit (which sucks) but it won't let me save anything for some reason, it crashes my crappy Macintosh. So in order to type I had to get my sister to enter the password on her PC, and had to get off if she wanted to use her computer, which was all the time. I also couldn't type when she wasn't here, and since she's a college student, that's most of the time. I have a mild form of OCD, I caught all those mistakes and then some, but was unable to do anything. As with earlier on, with the judges, it seems like some of you haven't read my story, and are making MONSTEROUSLY PRETENCIOUS ASSUMPTIONS based solely on what has transpired in this thread. I wasn't lyinjg when I said I put more than 90+ hours of work in, but as far as acctually typing the story, I did that in about 3 hours. Most of you I'm sure, have your own PC, but alas, I have a Mac. And as for the whole, "You're lucky to have gotten feedback...", perhaps, but I wouldn't have gotten any if I hadn't made the previous posts wink.gif


No no, I believe I'm detecting three flaws in your post there.
First off, no one forced you to rush through a story in order for you to participate, you were welcome not to enter, or to enter in for instance the short story category where you only had to type 2500 or fewer words. No one forced you into the long story category. If the reviews you got there were less positive then you had hoped for, well that's unfortunate, but you choose to enter yourself. You say it took you 3 hours to type out the story and 90+ to think of it, well comparing that to some of the other stories which were likely typed out over weeks and thought out over many months or years even. Again, that did give the others a lot more time to type it out, and to create it, but again that was all your choice.

Two, if you're trying to imply that some of the judges who judged your category haven't read our story and were just guessing, then I'd like to ask you to stop with that reasoning while you're ahead. All of the judges are people who have been active in the Elder Scrolls community for a very long time in one form or another, some of them I've known for years, some I've known about for years. To even imply even one of them did not do this to the best of their ability, went in biased, or judges stories with any way of prejudice in any way shape or form, is as I see it questioning their integrity, and that is going too far.
If you disagree with the results, that's fine, not everyone has to like it, not everyone can like it, but to even imply your story was not read through, and thus questioning the integrity of the judges is a step over the line. And if you did imply that, then I believe you should apologize for that.

Number three, if you had asked for feedback, even without the whole disagreeing bit and the rest, you still would have gotten it. Like we've mentioned before in this thread, long story judges already posted bits and comments in the judges section, easy step from there to giving it to the author, so there would not have been any logic to not giving it.


QUOTE(paragenic @ May 26 2008, 10:12 PM) *

Yeah, I've been travelling the past two days, and I've just returned and seen a lot has happened...

I'll be honest with all of you - my first reaction was total surprise and a bit of disappointment too since I wasn't expecting the results to be published till the 1st of June. Should this contest ever be organised again in the future I would strongly recommend picking a date and time that the results would be announced and sticking with it. Why? BECAUSE I'M READING THE STORIES STILL AND YOU'VE GONE AND SPOILED PART OF MY FUN! nono.gif If it had been stated from the beginning "winners will be announced on the 25th of May" then I would have made it a point of reading more quickly, and I would have made sure that I had read all of the stories myself by that time. Now I'm too late.


Actually, I did post this in the guidelines page of the competition;
"6. The final results of the competition will be published before June 1st, but if possible, sooner."

I'd actually wanted to give the results even earlier, but as mentioned, due to a judge dropping out and a tie in a category, it took a while longer.

QUOTE

My second reaction was even more surprise when I read the actual results of the category in which I had read the most stories (medium length). Before I go any further, please allow me to congratulate the winner. Now that's over, I regret I must share with you all that I SERIOUSLY disagree with the results. There were stories in this category that did not receive any points (not even in the post by Alexander that contained the extended rankings) that deserve at the very least some feedback. I am bewildered that "The Cursed
Sewers" received actual points and that the story with the gunpowder was not disqualified for its glaring anachronisms and many resemblance to the television series "Sharpe". It does not do justice to stories such as "Ripples in the Stream", "The Unsung", and "Dagothlivion" where an enormous effort obviously went in to creating an imaginative storyline (plusses to Dagothlivion), lore, and even creating stories around details in the game that would appeal to a true fan (plusses to The Unsung and to Ripples in the Stream).

Instead I see that "Tales of a Scaled Knight" with its imbalanced antagonists and zipping-into-space plot comes in sixth? The plot is so out there, even the protangonist forgets it by the end of the story. "Fall of the West" with its tiresome parade of unfamiliar proper nouns comes in second? "The Last Dance" which has no plot at all and hardly transcends the description of a duel comes in fourth? "Eyes of the Heavens" which has unbelievably incompetent assassins characters comes in fifth? And there is not even mention of "Ripples in the Stream", "Dagothlivion", "The Unsung" or "The King of Daenia"? Not even a single point? BOO I say. Again, I say BOOO!

mad.gif

I feel too strongly that things are not right to be polite at this point. I challenge the results and it is obvious to me one of the two following must be true: Either #1 there was no objective scoring process that was applied consistently for everyone or #2 there are criteria that have not been communicated (and should have been communicated) from the beginning in the form of guidelines to submitters.

"Dagothlivion" is a damn good story that succeeds in painting a human side to Ascended Sleepers and Ash Zombies. And has people using Cliff Racers for transportation! And barrels of water on the planes of Oblivion! For chrissake, how ingenious is that? To not award it even a single point is simply incorrect. One hundred times BOOOO to the judges.


You know, I find it hard not to become sarcastic here, but I think I'll indulge myself for a single sentence here; "Wow, imagine that, two people read something and they have a different opinion of it, who would have guessed."

Even with a clear and objective scoring process, you'll likely never get the same results in any competition from all of the judges. Why? Because when it comes to judging something on "how much did you like the story" there's a very large window there for difference.

If a famous book is read by book critics, why do you think some would praise it into heaven and others might not like it too much, or might even give it a bad review? I mean they're all doing the same job aren't they? All supposed to look for exactly the same things shouldn't they? It's the same here. 3 judges per category, who read all the stories and then made a list of their top ten, taking into account things that were mentioned in several posts in this thread, and of course how much they personally liked the story. All of that combined led to the scores you've seen. I'm sure if I'd read the short or medium sized stories, I might have come up with a list very different from the lists of the judges who did it now. And I'm sure had you or Redsrock or Orimus been a judge, you might have chosen lists also very different from ours. That is to be expected.




On a general note, a few of you have already expressed issues you have with the system used for judging, or have expressed feelings that you think your story or other stories should have been ranked higher. I have no problem with such expressions, if you'd care to voice something, please do so, be it good or bad.
However, as you can read earlier in this thread, I will not allow personal attacks on either specific judges or judges in general. Questioning their integrity is NOT an option in this thread. I can honestly say, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that I know for certain each judge has judged to the best of their ability, in complete fairness and without any prejudice in any form whatsoever. Posts expressing views otherwise will not be tolerated. Voice protests all you want to, but do not claim someone was biased against you as it's both improper and completely incorrect.

Now, carry on.

Posted by: 0rimus May 26 2008, 10:13 PM

I acctually agree with the long catagory placement, (though I really think We are merely shadows should have gotten higher). Also, I've been working on this story in my mind for well over seven years now, and the 90+hours was physical (swordfighting, smoking old pipe tobacco, hiking) and informational reasearch for the sole purpose of the story. And yes, it was my choice to write, and to chose the long catagory despite my handicap. But I could no more shorten this story than sever my own leg. This is also the only TES story I'm fully intersted in; I easily could've put some POS in the short catagory, but why would I do that if I don't even care what I'm writing about? I cared about Heraldry and Heretics, so I wasn't going to let the story suffer, even if the grammar did. I also don't question the jugdes intergrity, it's just that I realize when you are required to read something you tend to just read it, as opposed to READING it. If that makes any sence. I don't blame them thought. It seems like the judges were short on time is all. I'm not questioning thier end results, just saying that, maybe, it'd have been easier/more conclusive if they had more time. And I congradulate you on doing as well as you did with the time you gave yourselves... now if only someone would say the same of me.

Posted by: redsrock May 26 2008, 10:21 PM

QUOTE(0rimus @ May 26 2008, 10:13 PM) *

And I congradulate you on doing as well as you did with the time you gave yourselves... now if only someone would say the same of me.

Ok, Orimus, I've agreed with most of everything you've said, except that last thing there. Alexander and BSD I know have congratulated everything and have thanked everyone for particpating and writing stories, more than once. And that's besides the point, you shouldn't have to be congratulated to feel good. You should feel good because you wrote the story, not because someone left feedback, said "thank you", or whatever.

@ BSD and Alexander: I'd like to go ahead and apolgize for my actions over the past day and a half. Though I still stand by EVERYTHING I've said, I could have said it more professionally, and not as rude. My apologies...

Posted by: 0rimus May 26 2008, 10:27 PM

I'm not so much as asking for a congradulation or anything. I just would like people to understand my constraints, and factor this in when they blatantly insult me with no real constructive purpose. I don't need any special notation, I know my story was good, as i've been saying lately: "I've made a diamond in 3 hours, no matter how flawed it is, it is still a diamond."

Posted by: redsrock May 26 2008, 10:29 PM

QUOTE(0rimus @ May 26 2008, 10:27 PM) *

I'm not so much as asking for a congradulation or anything.

But you keep reffering to that. That's what I'm saying...

Posted by: Alexander May 26 2008, 10:39 PM

QUOTE(0rimus @ May 26 2008, 11:27 PM) *

I'm not so much as asking for a congradulation or anything. I just would like people to understand my constraints, and factor this in when they blatantly insult me with no real constructive purpose. I don't need any special notation, I know my story was good, as i've been saying lately: "I've made a diamond in 3 hours, no matter how flawed it is, it is still a diamond."


I'm afraid, looking over this thread, I don't see anyone "insulting" you. Perhaps you'd care to point out who did so and where? Offer constructive criticism, criticize, perhaps, but insulting is something very different smile.gif

Posted by: BSD-IES May 26 2008, 10:57 PM

QUOTE(0rimus @ May 26 2008, 10:27 PM) *

I'm not so much as asking for a congradulation or anything. I just would like people to understand my constraints, and factor this in when they blatantly insult me with no real constructive purpose. I don't need any special notation, I know my story was good, as i've been saying lately: "I've made a diamond in 3 hours, no matter how flawed it is, it is still a diamond."


The only insult I can imagine you believe you received is that in my final list (which by the way you kept demanding to know) you came 8th. Is that an insult? No. As for the "I just would like people to understand my constraints, and factor this in" comment, that doesn't wash. It was a competition, where your story was judged against the other entries. It may well be that the other entries didn't face your constraints. Who knows? We could only judge based on what we were given to read, circumstances behind that have no bearing whatsoever. Finally the diamond comment. I don't recall anyone saying it wasn't. As before we were comparing the entries against one another, so I could argue that we had 8 diamonds to compare. How brightly each one shone was the deciding factor.


Posted by: raggidman May 26 2008, 11:00 PM

Check the Competition thread I have put there for you Orimus. When I have finished I will have reviewed every story in the competition there - you will get some new thoughts perhaps (just be sure to remember that my story is incomparable wink.gif ) and I have far tougher stuff to deal with than you - both equipment and clearly life-wise - so what? It's not a handicap race - or I would win by every judge's tally hands down - trust me.

To my favorite proof reader Jordy goodjob.gif - thanks. That's great. Some to the point feedback at last. Sorry, but I will correct the punctuation if needed, look at sentance lengths and compare them with the new correections I have already made - see my thread in the writing forum. But as for writing smoothe - that stays. It is a poetic modern and ancient alteration of that word that gives sought for connotations and intentional. That one is not a spelling mistake. Do not mistake the word smoothe for the word smooth. Just accept it and try to feel with it - imagine what I meant if you will.

As for the way I come accross in that post, that is for my friend Orimus, the up and coming writer in the hope that it will set him back on his heels a bit more and take stock of what he is up to. They are some of the thoughts others have made claer to me and that I have had of my own work - everyone has them an dusu we keep themn hidden. I also have total despair, this will never be good enough thoughts, and I take them, throttle them and put them in the dustbin where they belong - or I could not write ... gtg - later

Posted by: HaploTR May 26 2008, 11:00 PM

Each judge is different and as such, has different thought processes on how to judge and what to look for. While certain things are listed in the rules, other, sub-conscious catalysts also played a role, I am sure.

We are sorry the rules and scoring criterion were not tailored to your liking, but there is really no way we could guard against that effectively without consulting deeply with every author. That is, of course, completely unfeasible. If you would something to be different for the next contest, please make an organized, clear-headed post, neatly listing contested parts and suggested ways of improving them. I'm sure Alex will take them into account for the next contest, should there be another.

Also, I'd like to take this time to say that, as judges, we acknowledge you don't care about our personal lives in regards to judging the entries, and would like you to acknowledge that we don't care about your personal lives in regards to writing said entries.

We judged the entries as we saw them, that is, the .doc files we received. Nothing more, nothing less.

Posted by: stargelman May 26 2008, 11:08 PM

I've kept an eye or two on the whole process from a safe distance, and I can assure you that all of the judges (except for the one that dropped out) put a lot of efford into this. I understand if people get upset with the rating of their work, that's why Buddhists don't like competitions in general. But please keep a civil tone and do not resort to personal attacks or completely silly speculation about ulterior motives, or worse, negligence or lazyness on the side of the judges.

It's rather unfair to these guys who have put a lot of time into this and I assure you we will not stand for it.


Also, if you decide to piss them off, they might not do something like this again. Something to think about.

Posted by: Alexander May 26 2008, 11:12 PM

QUOTE(HaploTR @ May 27 2008, 12:00 AM) *

We judged the entries as we saw them, that is, the .doc files we received. Nothing more, nothing less.


And that is as it should be, and as it is with every contest I've come across. And something I explained to someone, who shall remain anonymous, who insisted the only way his story would get the recognition it would deserve, is if he were allowed to write down a list of tips, hints and explanations on how his story should be read and other such things.

It just doesn't work that way, your story should be sufficient on it's own, and other things should not have to be taken into account.


And I'd like to second what Haplo said, well not everything wink.gif but his mention of us being very much open to good solid constructive tips on how to do such a thing next time. Any such tips posted in here would definitely be taken into account next time. Though of course it would be a good idea to keep in mind that you're dealing with judges who don't do this for a living, and are therefore to an extent, limited in their time.

Posted by: paragenic May 26 2008, 11:57 PM

QUOTE(Alexander @ May 26 2008, 10:45 PM) *

Actually, I did post this in the guidelines page of the competition;
"6. The final results of the competition will be published before June 1st, but if possible, sooner."

I'd actually wanted to give the results even earlier, but as mentioned, due to a judge dropping out and a tie in a category, it took a while longer.


Alex I applaud this initiative - I see it as something great and good and I would love for it to be repeated. But there should be deadlines, concrete ones, both for the submitters and for the judges. Please, I ask you in the future to make these concrete.

QUOTE(Alexander @ May 26 2008, 10:45 PM) *

However, as you can read earlier in this thread, I will not allow personal attacks on either specific judges or judges in general. Questioning their integrity is NOT an option in this thread. I can honestly say, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that I know for certain each judge has judged to the best of their ability, in complete fairness and without any prejudice in any form whatsoever. Posts expressing views otherwise will not be tolerated. Voice protests all you want to, but do not claim someone was biased against you as it's both improper and completely incorrect.


Alex, and stargelman, I am not sure to what degree your recent posts are directed at my lengthy screed, but I will assume for a moment that they are. Alex you write that you know "for certain each judge has judged to the best of their ability". I have no problem with the "to the best of" part of your sentence. For the record, I would like to say it's wonderful that they have been fair, and should be praised for doing their work without prejudice or compensation. I do have a problem with the "their ability" part of your sentence. I have honest, legitimate concerns about the ability of the judges to make their conclusions.

Alex your sarcasm is lost and your logic is flawed. Consider, if you please, the Michelin Guide for restaurants. The criterion there is not "did the critic enjoy the meal" which is such a subjective criterion it is laughable to even consider since some people like Coquilles St.-Jaques, for instance, and others don't. Even the notion of having a single criterion is ridiculous. Instead, what you get in a Michelin guide is single score that is the result of a combination of subscores. I would recommend that, for future instalments, Chorrol would do something similar. Examples of CONCRETE criteria could be: (one) originality (two) coherence of plot (three) meaningfulness to the world of TES (four) imaginative power (five) believability of the characters etc. etc. etc... This would have benefits for the submitters of the stories and also for the judges, and it would make the process a bit more transparent. If a clear set of criteria existed from the beginning, I am sure that this thread would be many pages shorter.

And yes, while we are all rushing to defend the judging and the judges, bear in mind that it won't matter if people lose interest and nobody submits any more stories. It's thanks to the writers, not the judges, that there's anything to see on this website in the first place.

And I will say it again it is a shame that Dagothlivion receives no points and no mention. The fact this remains so does Chorrol no credit. Lest somebody gets the wrong ideas, let me be clear - I am not the mysterious bqggz. I did not write this story. Yes, I wrote a story and submitted it to the competition. When I read Dagothlivion I felt humbled. I hope the person that wrote this story reads this post - Baggz you have written a fine piece and you have a fine creative mind. The results of this competition do you no justice, so just ignore them.



Posted by: kementari May 27 2008, 12:15 AM

QUOTE(paragenic @ May 26 2008, 03:57 PM) *

Examples of CONCRETE criteria could be: (one) originality (two) coherence of plot (three) meaningfulness to the world of TES (four) imaginative power (five) believability of the characters etc. etc. etc.


It's probably worthwhile to point out that even with "concrete" criteria like this, any judging process is inherently subjective.

Everyone who competes in anything and doesn't win feels like they got "robbed". Only on the internet do those people have the cheek to complain about it to the faces of the people who worked so hard to make the competition happen. Put a mature face on it, and try again next time.

Posted by: MstrOfPppts May 27 2008, 12:30 AM

Well said kementari. Seriously, by the Azura, paragenic how old are you?

QUOTE(paragenic @ May 27 2008, 12:57 AM) *

It's thanks to the writers, not the judges, that there's anything to see on this website in the first place.


No judges, no competition, no entries => no fun! It's always thanks to both!

I unterstand all the dissapointment in participants who did not recieve the desired scoring, but people everything can be said in a mature way and not with such sharp words. I wonder who of you complaining would dare to say same things in person. Especialy in a week or so, when your blood cools off a bit.

Posted by: BSD-IES May 27 2008, 01:51 AM

QUOTE(paragenic @ May 26 2008, 11:57 PM) *

I have honest, legitimate concerns about the ability of the judges to make their conclusions.


Oh? On what are you basing that? On the fact that the judges choices differed from your own?

Posted by: Jordy May 27 2008, 02:17 AM

QUOTE(raggidman @ May 26 2008, 11:00 PM) *

To my favorite proof reader Jordy goodjob.gif - thanks. That's great. Some to the point feedback at last. Sorry, but I will correct the punctuation if needed, look at sentance lengths and compare them with the new correections I have already made - see my thread in the writing forum. But as for writing smoothe - that stays. It is a poetic modern and ancient alteration of that word that gives sought for connotations and intentional. That one is not a spelling mistake. Do not mistake the word smoothe for the word smooth. Just accept it and try to feel with it - imagine what I meant if you will.

As for the way I come accross in that post, that is for my friend Orimus, the up and coming writer in the hope that it will set him back on his heels a bit more and take stock of what he is up to. They are some of the thoughts others have made claer to me and that I have had of my own work - everyone has them an dusu we keep themn hidden. I also have total despair, this will never be good enough thoughts, and I take them, throttle them and put them in the dustbin where they belong - or I could not write ... gtg - later



LOK, OK. Glad you didn't feel my post was insulting to your work or anything. I suppose I'm something of a grammar/spelling Nazi, though I think that in creative (as opposed to academic) writing it's fair to play with certain grammatical rules in the pursuit of a particular style or effect. An obvious example being fragmented sentences, which are - as MS Word never stops chiding me - grammatically incorrect; but to insist on complete sentences all the time is quite a heavy restriction on creativity.

I can't say I've ever come across the word "smoothe" before, but I'll take your word for it, as I take your point that it's included in order to create a particular effect.

As for the competition results in general, the biggest surprise to me was that "Barricade" didn't do better. I've read this one before on ff.net and was very impressed. I thought it was a dead cert. for a high ranking, if not top.

Not sure really what I could say about my own baby...it was ultimately ranked joint ninth out of 27 entries, which isn't bad at all. I'm very pleased with my writing and use of language in it, but I realised from the start that competition-wise, it was at a disadvantage for two reasons: firstly, it's based directly on an in-game questline, and while I believe I fleshed it out and put my own mark on it, it couldn't really have garnered points for an original plot. Secondly, it's written from the POV of someone very keen on Lucien Lachance - what I had in mind while writing was a kind of cult of personality - so while I tried to avoid slushiness like the plague, or making Lucien sweet or nice...if you don't like him quite a lot, maybe it's not really going to speak to you. Essentially, I wrote it for myself as a kind of catharsis after being traumatised by the ending of the Dark Brotherhood quests.

All in all I'd say I'm satisfied with my place; obviously I'd like to have done better, but wouldn't everyone? (except the winners, of course)

I guess what it all comes down to for us all is that every story sets out to achieve certain things - you can't fulfill every possible literary goal in one story - and what you're doing in your story just may not be what a judge really digs, for want of a more eloquent word smile.gif

I made a point of at least skim-reading each entry, and I'm happy to say that there wasn't one I'd consider really bad, although there were a couple of people who obviously didn't have English as a native language and were struggling with it. But I've seen some fanfic competitions based on a very famous game character where said character was butchered beyond recognition, and most of the prose was just laughable. I think the overall quality here was good.




Posted by: 0rimus May 27 2008, 03:44 AM

When I said blatant in my last post, I did so out of annoyance. Alas, despite my stoicism I let my feelings get the best of me. The insults I recieved were veiled, or maybe, unintentional. But in short, everyone is calling me lazy for my grammarical errors. This also rectifies my other post: I didn't want special praise for my lack of time, I just want people to get off my back about it. Normally this would be constructive, but my errors are known to me, and of little consiquence anyway. People arn't outrightly calling me a moron, but

"For Orimus, I think you are very lucky to have got feedback. But I will say this: this is a writing competition and most of the terms thereof were open. If you couldn't be bothered or failed to take the time to go through your entry and correct every tiny little mistake then YOU are to blame. Really you have failed on the basis of one of the most elementary criteria to respect the competition. As in the other writers and the efforts they have made.

I suggest you read my story and tell me if you can find 1 single spelling or other gramatical error or weakness. There are a couple there, but hard to spot I think. I had not finished polishing when the deadline arrived = my bad."

Pretty insulting I'd say. I explained my inability to have done more, but I'm still getting heat for it. I don't want a congrats, and if it sounded like I was hinting at it then I sorry for the misunderstanding. I've remained calm and logical throught this whole process, and now I want out. No more quotes, be it to agree or condemn me further. I want out. All I asked for, a little feedback, I got, and I thank the judges for that. This should've ended at Chiglets post, but I kept getting dragged back into it to defend myself from grammar Nazis. I will respond if someone wants clarification on something I said previously, but otherwise, leave me alone and GB2 4chan. Acctually, scratch that, you ask me a question, but if it's too much BS, I just going to ignore it. "To err is human, to forgive is divine."

Posted by: paragenic May 27 2008, 05:33 AM

QUOTE(kementari @ May 27 2008, 01:15 AM) *

QUOTE(paragenic @ May 26 2008, 03:57 PM) *

Examples of CONCRETE criteria could be: (one) originality (two) coherence of plot (three) meaningfulness to the world of TES (four) imaginative power (five) believability of the characters etc. etc. etc.


It's probably worthwhile to point out that even with "concrete" criteria like this, any judging process is inherently subjective.

Everyone who competes in anything and doesn't win feels like they got "robbed". Only on the internet do those people have the cheek to complain about it to the faces of the people who worked so hard to make the competition happen. Put a mature face on it, and try again next time.



I fear I am misunderstood. It is because I care about this competition and would like for it to be organised again in the future, hopefully in a form where there's less panic at its conclusion, that I am making all these remarks. If nothing changes, I do not think I will invest the hours and hours of time that I've put in to be in this past competition. Actually, yes I did participate in this event and the investment of my personal time was significant. At a certain level I echo the sentiment of a previous poster that it does feel like something of a slap in the face, especially when you consider how the previous competition was organised. But out of respect to the organisers, I haven't even mentioned this yet.


QUOTE(MstrOfPppts @ May 27 2008, 01:30 AM) *

Well said kementari. Seriously, by the Azura, paragenic how old are you?

QUOTE(paragenic @ May 27 2008, 12:57 AM) *

It's thanks to the writers, not the judges, that there's anything to see on this website in the first place.


No judges, no competition, no entries => no fun! It's always thanks to both!

I unterstand all the dissapointment in participants who did not recieve the desired scoring, but people everything can be said in a mature way and not with such sharp words. I wonder who of you complaining would dare to say same things in person. Especialy in a week or so, when your blood cools off a bit.



I believe what you are seeing there is the expression of strong opinions. Perhaps I've misunderstood what "sharp words" mean but I believe I have been proper in the tools I have used to express them. Your suggestion I am acting like a immature, bitter loser, however is incorrect.


QUOTE(BSD-IES @ May 27 2008, 02:51 AM) *

QUOTE(paragenic @ May 26 2008, 11:57 PM) *

I have honest, legitimate concerns about the ability of the judges to make their conclusions.


Oh? On what are you basing that? On the fact that the judges choices differed from your own?



Hello, BSD-IES!

No, that would be silly. The source of my concerns are twofold: First, I sense that with criteria (that I believe someone with more experience would be able to judge as semi-objective) we would see very different choices being made. Things like coherence of plot, consistency and believability of characters, or originality, if taken into account, would certainly not give the same results. But, as I've learned, this doesn't seem to be the point and that is my second concern:

If Shakespeare himself were to descend among our midsts and write a masterpiece about Oblivion, and of the three judges, none liked plays, Shakespeare would walk away from this competition with zero points and zero feedback. And frankly, I think this is wrong. There should be more to the judging than the pure relative amusement of three people who are protected by anonymity and free from the need to justify their decisions.

When I entered this contest, I saw on the forums that another contest for short stories had been organised just the month before. Every (let me repeat) EVERY single story received some constructive comments. Perhaps I was naive to believe the competition would be organised consistently and that this would be repeated.

I understand that by criticising the organisation of this competition, I might not be making myself popular around here, but these things need to be said. A less-subjective judging system and more feedback are what are needed to take this forward and let this evolve into something more. If these changes are not made, this will stay a mom & pop forum with competitions involving amateur writers and amateur judges.





Posted by: kementari May 27 2008, 06:11 AM

Excuse me.

As to the "mom & pop"ness of this competition:

As I am given to understand it, the judges were prominent figures on the most popular Elder Scrolls fansites on the internet, as well as one employee of Bethesda.

If they didn't have the collective time to organize helpful feedback for each and every person to offer a submission, that is entirely their prerogative, and not indicative of sloppy or mismanaged judging in any way, shape, or form.


Have you ever competed in any writing contest before? Or, for that matter, any contest? The judges for national writing competitions don't give feedback to the losers. Judges for intramural diving competitions do not sit down with each diver to go over what they might have done better. Improv theater competitions, dance competitions, and music competitions - the judges do not give individual feedback to everyone who participates.


Where exactly do you get off, implicating that volunteer judges for a for-fun competition like this should be giving individual feedback to the winners, much less the losers?

Show some respect.

Posted by: 0rimus May 27 2008, 06:57 AM

Kementari,
I'm sorry, but I must disagree to some small extent, though I am loathe to enter another arguement, alas, I feel I must. I've competed in many organizations of various sizes: karate, fencing, band, chorus, percusion, poetry comtests, swim contests, biking contests, welding contests, artistry of all sorts, story comps. (besides this one), xbox live (that doesn't really count though), and tons of other crap. I've come in last place very often (or close to it) and I almost always have gotten a special little chat with the superior of the event, even in karate with a class of over 300 participating members, and not just a few words either, but a whole conversation on what i did wrong, and what i can improve. And in the few cases I wasn't approached by a superior, I went and asked one, as I had to do in this comp. I do agree that Paragenics post was a little rough. But hey, I asked, and i recieved, so if you really want feedback, or like me entered for the sole purpose of critique, then follow suit:
"I'd like a PM, I'd also like to see all eight entries stacked against one another, not just the top five"
Normally I wouldn't quote myself (cuz' contrary to popular belief, I don't have a big head), but I think amount of politeness vs. urgency was just right. Maybe with the politeness lagging a bit, but at that time I was quite honestly pissed, but refrianed from showing it as much as I wanted to. (Ok, maybe I do have a big head wink.gif

Posted by: paragenic May 27 2008, 06:57 AM

QUOTE(kementari @ May 27 2008, 07:11 AM) *


Where exactly do you get off, implicating that volunteer judges for a for-fun competition like this should be giving individual feedback to the winners, much less the losers?

Show some respect.


Yes, I "got off" at the short story competition of March 2008, on Chorrol.com! wink.gif This is exactly what happened, and I am scratching my head as to why they broke with this established pattern. I am also confused by your reaction - before entering the April 2008 competition, did you not see the process of the March 2008 competition?

You imply that I lack respect because I took the time to learn about the way contests on forum were organised in the past. Your analysis is flawed.


Posted by: 0rimus May 27 2008, 07:33 AM

Ok, I like someone else (too "lazy" to look for post/can't find it) have cooled down further, but still stand by everything I said. I tried to stay on the line, not right-wing or left-wing (but I didn't do a good job thougth, lol). So now that I'm all zen again, I'd like to propose ideas to both the judges and writers of a very constructive nature, that I'm sure (god I hope...) that everyone (mostly) can agree upon:

Judges:
1. Give more time to us, and unto thy selves.
2. Be prepared to critique the writings, wether by memory, or even just some joted notes, it may be arduous, but I don't think it'd be worse than this thread.
3. Solid, unflinching rules clearly stated (you guys did a pretty good job though)
4. I'd like to be able to say something about the second hottest item of debate, the end results/judging in general, but I can't. I've put myself in your guyses shoes, thought about judging, my opinion, and people questioning it. There is no set bar in writing, I know people who hate Eragon, and those who love it, it's a matter of preference the only sure-fire way to be a better writer is spelling and grammar, which is more than likely the reason i lost, lol.

Writers:
1. Don't throw out crap just to see if you can win with it, (I don't think anyone did this though)
2. Obviously, write about something you care about (goes with #1)
3. Follow the rules to the letter, even (if you get the benefit of talking with the judges) if it's only hinted at.
4. Don't cut corners, use common sense, even if you're told something won't count against you, you'd be better off fixing it anyway (cough...cough, damn grammar...) better safe than sorry, I speak from experience.
5. Don't rush it. Unless you're a greedy ho, who only wants the prize, you might be better off holding it back, or using a reserved story. I should've held my story back and filled all the holes/made repairs, and submitted it here, where I'd have gotten just as much, or even more critique than from the contest.

I might come up with more later. Seems like (I've got a big head) I've satiated both sides= you both got some constructive critizism. Now go and make mirth upon the provinces of beautiful Tamriel!

Posted by: kementari May 27 2008, 07:42 AM

QUOTE
You imply that I lack respect because I took the time to learn about the way contests on forum were organised in the past. Your analysis is flawed.


No, I imply that you lack respect because you seem to believe these individuals owe you something. Regardless of what happened in the past, if these judges a) didn't promise you feedback and b) aren't seeing any money from you, they don't owe you a thing.

It is your comprehension, not my analysis, that is flawed.

Posted by: 0rimus May 27 2008, 07:48 AM

Oh, while I'm at it, and since I've gone from depressed and angry to somewhat joyful, I'd like to offer my unique help. I thought about posting this in the help with writing thread, but it's not quite the same subject. Alot of TES is about fighting, and I have alot of experience (specifcally swords and fist-fights) in this area. I also go on "survival" trips alot, akin to Man vs. Wild, Survivorman, for those who want to make their TES stories more realistic in that regard. PM me, or mayhaps I'll just start a new thread...

Posted by: Alexander May 27 2008, 07:49 AM

QUOTE(paragenic @ May 27 2008, 12:57 AM) *

Alex your sarcasm is lost and your logic is flawed. Consider, if you please, the Michelin Guide for restaurants. The criterion there is not "did the critic enjoy the meal" which is such a subjective criterion it is laughable to even consider since some people like Coquilles St.-Jaques, for instance, and others don't. Even the notion of having a single criterion is ridiculous. Instead, what you get in a Michelin guide is single score that is the result of a combination of subscores. I would recommend that, for future instalments, Chorrol would do something similar. Examples of CONCRETE criteria could be: (one) originality (two) coherence of plot (three) meaningfulness to the world of TES (four) imaginative power (five) believability of the characters etc. etc. etc... This would have benefits for the submitters of the stories and also for the judges, and it would make the process a bit more transparent. If a clear set of criteria existed from the beginning, I am sure that this thread would be many pages shorter.


Hm, I'm not sure your example really applies, there's quite a time difference between eating a meal, and reading a book. And above any time related concerns, let's not forget the fact that those critics, be it food or literature critics, are paid professionals who can take all the time in the world to read something 5 times etc.

QUOTE

And yes, while we are all rushing to defend the judging and the judges, bear in mind that it won't matter if people lose interest and nobody submits any more stories. It's thanks to the writers, not the judges, that there's anything to see on this website in the first place.

And I will say it again it is a shame that Dagothlivion receives no points and no mention. The fact this remains so does Chorrol no credit. Lest somebody gets the wrong ideas, let me be clear - I am not the mysterious bqggz. I did not write this story. Yes, I wrote a story and submitted it to the competition. When I read Dagothlivion I felt humbled. I hope the person that wrote this story reads this post - Baggz you have written a fine piece and you have a fine creative mind. The results of this competition do you no justice, so just ignore them.


I beg to differ, I'd say it's a group effort by both authors and judges. As to a single story, again as I've mentioned earlier in this thread, and as others have mentioned as well, there's always a chance that some people will love a story, and some others judging it on the same criteria will hate it. That's actually the content of my sarcasm and with respect, I don't think it is flawed.

Though I like what BSD said before even better, we had to pick a winner, so if all the stories are considered to be diamonds, which many of them are, then we had the hard part of selecting the most flawless diamond of them all. Doesn't mean the rest are rubbish, just that in the eyes of the jury, they were not as good as the winners.


QUOTE(paragenic @ May 27 2008, 06:33 AM) *


I fear I am misunderstood. It is because I care about this competition and would like for it to be organised again in the future, hopefully in a form where there's less panic at its conclusion, that I am making all these remarks. If nothing changes, I do not think I will invest the hours and hours of time that I've put in to be in this past competition. Actually, yes I did participate in this event and the investment of my personal time was significant. At a certain level I echo the sentiment of a previous poster that it does feel like something of a slap in the face, especially when you consider how the previous competition was organised. But out of respect to the organisers, I haven't even mentioned this yet.


Ah, but you're missing, or not including something there. The past competition also had three judges, but only 8 entries, which all had to be fewer then 2000 words. At max that brings it to 8*2000 = 16000 words. That's nothing compared to this new competition where we had 60+ entries. Not to mention the fact that many fans choose to comment and review and criticize those 8 stories of that last competition and very few fans choose to criticize their peers stories in this competition.

So comparing the two and judging them with the same criteria, is not possible IMO.


QUOTE(MstrOfPppts @ May 27 2008, 01:30 AM) *

Well said kementari. Seriously, by the Azura, paragenic how old are you?

No judges, no competition, no entries => no fun! It's always thanks to both!

I unterstand all the dissapointment in participants who did not recieve the desired scoring, but people everything can be said in a mature way and not with such sharp words. I wonder who of you complaining would dare to say same things in person. Especialy in a week or so, when your blood cools off a bit.


Unfortunately, such is the nature of the internet. We can't hold it against anyone though, I mean we knew what we were getting into when we choose to judge the competition smile.gif


QUOTE(paragenic @ May 26 2008, 11:57 PM) *

I understand that by criticising the organisation of this competition, I might not be making myself popular around here, but these things need to be said. A less-subjective judging system and more feedback are what are needed to take this forward and let this evolve into something more. If these changes are not made, this will stay a mom & pop forum with competitions involving amateur writers and amateur judges.


Yeah, you know you're right, this was an amateurish competition, with amateur judges (well most of them) and amateur writers (well most of them), but everyone knew that going in. You knew before you entered who the judges were, you knew (if you know them or had contacted them) that they were amateurs, willingly giving up their time for the community to judge this competition. Boy, I hope the ones who haven't posted here won't read this thread, I don't think I'd ever be able to convince them to sacrifice their precious time again to judge a competition when the entrants appear so demanding and yes, ungrateful. Well some of them anyway.

We can make something more professional, by hiring professionals. But unfortunately, our budget only goes so far, and while we were all very thankful to Bethesda for providing us with such cool prizes, I somehow doubt I would have been able to convince Gstaff to hire 9 professional story critics, as convincing as I may be.

Posted by: 0rimus May 27 2008, 08:00 AM

I think my diamond needed another grind lol. Oh dear... I already hate doing this, especially since I've done it a couple time... Oh wait! I asked people to stop quoteing me, oh snap! I changed my mind, quote/insult/comment away! I'm too valuable to this arguement, j/k. No one was quoting/saying anything about the points I've brought up, so I went and assumed that people weren't reading my crap again. Good thing I luked moar. Whew! *wipes brow* Now seriously, the things I brought up are pretty good................ right? I'm now ASKING for quotes, and in turn for punishment, I was pretty good when I was ticked off, and now I'm level headed, so bring it. *equips Umbra* *smirks*

Posted by: kementari May 27 2008, 08:06 AM

QUOTE(Alexander @ May 26 2008, 11:49 PM) *

Boy, I hope the (judges) who haven't posted here won't read this thread, I don't think I'd ever be able to convince them to sacrifice their precious time again to judge a competition when the entrants appear so demanding and yes, ungrateful.


For emphasis.

Seriously, kids. Take a step back. This kind of overreaction is the sort of thing that will guarantee no future competitions.

For the sake of those of us who didn't get to participate and may wish to in the future, I ask any judges reading here to disregard the comments of those who clearly don't understand what it is they're saying.

Posted by: stargelman May 27 2008, 08:16 AM

QUOTE(paragenic @ May 27 2008, 12:57 AM) *

I have honest, legitimate concerns about the ability of the judges to make their conclusions.

You know, if I weren't such a nice guy.... huh.gif

Posted by: 0rimus May 27 2008, 08:18 AM

QUOTE(kementari @ May 27 2008, 12:06 AM) *

QUOTE(Alexander @ May 26 2008, 11:49 PM) *

Boy, I hope the (judges) who haven't posted here won't read this thread, I don't think I'd ever be able to convince them to sacrifice their precious time again to judge a competition when the entrants appear so demanding and yes, ungrateful.


For emphasis.

Seriously, kids. Take a step back. This kind of overreaction is the sort of thing that will guarantee no future competitions.

For the sake of those of us who didn't get to participate and may wish to in the future, I ask any judges reading here to disregard the comments of those who clearly don't understand what it is they're saying.


*PAH-CHOW!*
*Looks down at bullet-hole wound incredulously, then at Umbra in hand*
"How... could.. I..."
"Where's your nine now?"

Lol, SO glad I played middle of the road now, dodged the "bullet" there. Never demand which isn't yours by right. The verdict of these judges is the sole opinion of the judge, owned by that judge, and only by that judge. I'll admit to a little initial ingratitude, but never demanded anything, and the ingratitude wasn't very severe anyway.

*Pulls bullet out of chest, heals wound, points to the side*
"It was him!"
*Runs into the woods while Kementari pulls the slide of thier nine back-*
"I pity da foo who ain't 'spectin' the judges"
*PAH-CHOW!* smile.gif

Posted by: raggidman May 27 2008, 09:53 AM

QUOTE
paragenic sez: Consider, if you please, the Michelin Guide for restaurants. The criterion there is not "did the critic enjoy the meal" which is such a subjective criterion it is laughable to even consider since some people like Coquilles St.-Jaques, for instance, and others don't. Even the notion of having a single criterion is ridiculous. Instead, what you get in a Michelin guide is single score that is the result of a combination of subscores. I would recommend that, for future instalments, Chorrol would do something similar. Examples of CONCRETE criteria could be: (one) originality (two) coherence of plot (three) meaningfulness to the world of TES (four) imaginative power (five) believability of the characters etc. etc. etc... This would have benefits for the submitters of the stories and also for the judges, and it would make the process a bit more transparent. If a clear set of criteria existed from the beginning, I am sure that this thread would be many pages shorter.
Rules? Though I do not like 'regimentation' I kinda like these categories - as guides to judging and scrutinising ... not as rules - because again we get back to the subjective.

As for Dagothlivion I have to agree with paragenic there in spades - it was excellently written, inventive and most entertaining all the way through - more so than most of the others in the category on any set of standards and I cannot see how it was missed. It employed some techniques that I used in my short story about spies like us - and I wish that I had written Dagothlivion.- I would be honored if the author pops up and says he was inspired by my work, but not surprised if he got his inspiration through other reading or stuff! It totally took me by surprise when I read it, and I felt that I was almost playing the game and discovering new stuff. It's quality as an entertaining piece and cunning penmanship is so obvious the kindest construction I can put on this result was that none of the judges actually read it.

Since I have not yet discovered the list of all the positions of all the entries I have no idea how far down this it was, but I have no doubt that a great disservice was done to this fine piece. It seems that it has been unjustly consigned to Dagothlivion. :nods:



Mr Orimus since you have changed your mind I shall apply your own analogy: if an uncut diamond is presented in a competition for jewellers vs a selection of highly polished and well-cut gems, no matter the potential quality of the uncut gem it aint gonna win ... and should not do so. Forget the spelling Nazi thing - it seems that spelling was not such an important consideration - but if you present an uncompleted work you have to expect to lose points for that as it is a competition for the best, not the best but we are going to give bonus points to people for not completing their work for whatever reason.

What you might have done if it was not finished to your satisfaction, as was pointed out, is wait for the next competition or simple post it as a story on the Forums. Who knows what might have happened.

I have found Alexander's post now. Wish all that had been in a separarte pinned and locked thread as it has sorta been buried. And it would be nice to include the list of the judges names in such a new thread as they arre all public domain.

Posted by: BSD-IES May 27 2008, 11:24 AM

QUOTE(raggidman @ May 27 2008, 09:53 AM) *

It's quality as an entertaining piece and cunning penmanship is so obvious the kindest construction I can put on this result was that none of the judges actually read it.


That is out of order. I'm getting really bloody annoyed that people are casting aspersions on the character of the judges simply because our choices don't match theirs.

QUOTE(paragenic @ May 27 2008, 05:33 AM) *

Things like coherence of plot, consistency and believability of characters, or originality, if taken into account, would certainly not give the same results. But, as I've learned, this doesn't seem to be the point and that is my second concern


What the hell do you think we judged them on? Let me give you a clue:

Plot
Characterisation
Dialogue
Writing Style
Language
Pacing
and finally Personal Enjoyment.

Wouldn't give the same results indeed. Yet again you mean that we are unsuited to judge, whilst you are. Your opinion being clearly more important than ours.

QUOTE(paragenic @ May 27 2008, 05:33 AM) *

If these changes are not made, this will stay a mom & pop forum with competitions involving amateur writers and amateur judges.


As compared to what? Professional writers being marked by professional judges? Excuse me, I'll just get on the phone and see if Philip Roth wants to write a fanfiction for an online competition, and get Michael Chabon to come and judge it. Perhaps your expectations are totally unrealistic.

This is a fansite - by fans, for fans. Perhaps you need to remember who the audience is for the games. That same audience are those who are both writing and judging. If you want to write a sci-fi piece that's judged by professional writers of the standard you demand, perhaps you'd be better off at a website designed for that purpose, like Critters. Be warned though, they won't accept fanfiction.

Posted by: raggidman May 27 2008, 02:04 PM

BSD-IES - THAT WAS NOT INTENDED AS PERSONAL CRITICISM. Nor as casting aspersions on anyone's character. What it is is criticism of a result. Now I had thought that was legitimate. and if you wish to criticise my judgement on this matter that is fine with me = judge not lest ye be judged. So that means I believe I have to take your criticism to heart also because I have been judging the judges' decisions. :shrugs: And I have done. I was shocked that you felt that way. sad.gif

Natch I believe that what I said was correct wink.gif But I feel for you in the hard task that you have bravely undertaken - and that is :uh ohh: not over yet. I can imagine that some of the judges actually felt sorry that they felt they could not give more 'points' to some of the wonderful stories. But I also did not see any story in the category that could compare with Dagothlivion. That is what my (admittedly hurried as I was on the way to hospital for more tests) comment meant.

I also believe that you should all be willing to deal with the criticism that is going to come your way, not least because everyone's a critic, and save outrage for when people are intentionally going over the line to cause harm to you, rather than imagining they are against you. I know I am not, and I do not believe for a moment that paragenic is either. Hell, I cannot tell you how many times I have felt angered by things people have said to and about me that I felt were unjustified - only to learn later that they saw their statements in an entirely different light :shrugs: - we really need a :shrugs: button on this board wink.gif - ooops, another criticism. blink.gif

my 10cents - now ban me if you still think I was being deliberately damaging - because if it was not a mistake I deserve to be banned.

Posted by: BSD-IES May 27 2008, 02:35 PM

"the kindest construction I can put on this result was that none of the judges actually read it."

Those were your words, and that's what I took umbrage to. Sorry, but how else could I possibly read that? Of course we read it, we read all the entries, and several times each. Most of the comments you've made have been fine, hell some have been very useful. You've encouraged people to give each other feedback in the other thread, which I think is a terrific idea. You're not the first person to suggest (look back a couple of pages if you don't believe me) that the judges didn't read the stories. Do you honestly think that any judge who has spent time carefully reading each and every story, weighing up the pro's and con's of each isn't going to take offence at that?

Posted by: raggidman May 27 2008, 07:38 PM

You have to look at the difference between a statement of fact and reaching out for words to describe bafflement. Far better in my opinion that you make a mistake than that you don't have a clue if you see what I mean? This is not saying that you made that mistake, but rather that it would be preferable.

Thing is you accepted the job of referee - so you knew people would say you were blind. Just as you have effectively told everone who did not get first place overall or your vote as first place that their stories were not as good as another story. So they kick up a bit. In this case I was totally turned off by the name Dagothlivion. And Dagoths? I felt I had enough of them. I thought it was going to be another re-iteration of the same old tale that so many other writers are repeating over and over. But wow! Reading this story blew away all my preconceptions and I saw paragenic was taking stick for being too critical in support of this highly talented writer, so I felt I had to support what he was saying on the matter of his assessment of the story which is so true that I feel the ref was blind. It does not mean that I or they are your enemy or wish you ill.

Maybe you missed the parody and irony and satirical elements in the story? De gustibus non disputandem? Someone suggested to me that the ending totally left him unmoved and that it is not possible to argue about taste, but that seems to be the only basis we have left to look at this on. What about was it really ES? Well it is really as much or more ES than almost all the other tales I have read here because it accepts the conventions of ES and yet presents something totally new. As if the characters do not have to prove they are ES-like. This was a story so totally immersed in ES that no reader could claim that it was from anything else for sure. After all, if the actors in Mournhold in the open air theatre had to put on on, what could a comedy about the Dagoth's be like? Bloody brilliant.

One thing that I have felt about this judging system - which is comparable to Olympic judging re Ice Skating and Diving - is that you can end up with an unfortunate winner who is no one's first choice. Oops, it happened. Also what can happen in such a small community is that the judges have read a writer's work so often that they become innured to its charms. Hell, there are so many problems with this kind of thing ...

Since you push it, unfortunately, I will not dispute that each individual judge did his or her best. .... think about that. If I were a judge I would have preferred to look at it the other way. But also please accept that such competitions are never truly fair. So I think it is better for the judges to take the time now to explain what they were thinking in some detail, if they can, simply because there are writers out there who are bound to feel bad as a result of the decisions when they actually were not necessarily inferior an dcan benefit from the judges feedback. I cannot force them to do so.

That is one reason that, if I can, I will continue to work on the 'your views' thread (remember I have been trying to read them all and I'm now trying to give feedback too) to give my views of each piece that I can, in the hopes that all those people whose stories I can empathise with will not feel left out, or that their work is less than it is. And please forgive me, but that is more important to me than the judges (however fair they tried to be) now.

Face it, I respect you more for your story 'A Beautiful Duel', and you guys (judges) generally more for the writing , modding, administrating etc that you do, than as judges. Now I can refrain from saying that, but then am I then doing both you and the author of that tale a disservice if I do not give you the same feedback that I give the writers. And who would believe what I say in future? Who will crit the critics smile.gif This may be unfortunate if you intend to take up careers as professional judges tongue.gif But on the basis of that one story it is what I feel. :shrug: My approach is better that you, I and others get the chance to vent and explain ourselves - even if we make mistakes in doing so - than that we refuse criticism entirely and fail to improve our skills.

All this is the reason that unpaid judges are hard to find for this kind of competition.

The one thing I would change about all this is that all the info that came out bit by bit about the judging and results would have better been made available with the top placings. And there should have been more back up arranged so that people other than the judges were able to say: 'this is what happened'.

Posted by: BSD-IES May 27 2008, 07:59 PM

Like I said, the only comment I had a problem with was the one I previously quoted. I really like the fact you're trying to get people's opinions in the story thread, I think that's a really positive thing. I also have no problem with you or Paragenic thinking we made a mistake in overlooking a story you both feel was the best. I had a problem with the way it was being stated. Let me explain, then let's move on. This is what you wrote above:

"it was excellently written, inventive and most entertaining all the way through - more so than most of the others in the category on any set of standards and I cannot see how it was missed. It employed some techniques that I used in my short story about spies like us - and I wish that I had written Dagothlivion.- I would be honored if the author pops up and says he was inspired by my work, but not surprised if he got his inspiration through other reading or stuff! It totally took me by surprise when I read it, and I felt that I was almost playing the game and discovering new stuff. It's quality as an entertaining piece and cunning penmanship is"

If I stop it there, we have a nicely reasoned argument, disagreeing with the judges decision. We had our opinion, you have yours. Absolutely fine. I'm also sure that if the author reads it, they'd be delighted to see their story has had such an impact on you and Paragenic. Now Paragenic also employed a similar approach, praising the story (great), explaining why he thought it was a great story (wonderful). If he'd stopped there, nobody would have minded even a little bit. A conflict of opinions maybe, but nobody would object to that. We did object to the addition of this:

"I have honest, legitimate concerns about the ability of the judges to make their conclusions."

Comments like that, and suggesting the only reason a story was overlooked was that we couldn't be bothered to read it cross a line. The line between disagreeing with a decision, and explaining why (which you both did), to just insulting and calling into question the character and competance of people you don't know. Purely on the basis of the fact the story wasn't as well received by the judges as by the two of you. That's going too far. Disagree with our decisions all you want, but there is no need to make rude comments about the people who made the decisions.


Posted by: raggidman May 27 2008, 08:18 PM

I did not say: the judges did not read that story. To suggest such a thing is like saying 'this is' is the same as 'this is not'.

Also you are forgetting that there are many senses in which the phrase 'did not read' can be taken.

Thus it can be said: You can read a piece hundreds of times and still miss the sense of it = you did not read it. [edit: and please do not take offense at the wording. It is impersonal.]

It could be that this is a piece that for you is 'before your time' or something you are not yet prepared to understand or appreciate.

In Soho Square, London, England this weekend there was a TV show presentation. They hired a promo company to put up a Huge White Board, and had someone write in the Top Left in huge letters: 'Culture is ... '

They set up a camera pointing at the board, and encouraged passers-by to add something

Guess how many interpretations of that 2 word phrase there were at the end of two days?

Besides, I am not unhappy with the result of this exchange. Because I pushed the line you have given a far more personal view into what you were thinking, and doing - the whole process comes over as a more human ond personal one, and I am sure that will be appreciated by many of the writers. It's sound journalistic technique laugh.gif

Posted by: BSD-IES May 27 2008, 08:42 PM

QUOTE(raggidman @ May 27 2008, 08:18 PM) *

Besides, I am not unhappy with the result of this exchange. Because I pushed the line you have given a far more personal view into what you were thinking, and doing - the whole process comes over as a more human ond personal one, and I am sure that will be appreciated by many of the writers. It's sound journalistic technique laugh.gif


So it doesn't matter who you upset, just as long as you get what you want? You know, that sound journalistic technique. You really are something. We don't do that at this forum. If you'd taken the time to discover that before upsetting people, and acting like you owned the place, you would know that. You received a pm from Alex earlier, which you've ignored. I think it's time I tried a little moderating technique.

Posted by: Alexander May 27 2008, 09:18 PM

QUOTE(raggidman @ May 27 2008, 09:18 PM) *

It could be that this is a piece that for you is 'before your time' or something you are not yet prepared to understand or appreciate.

Besides, I am not unhappy with the result of this exchange. Because I pushed the line you have given a far more personal view into what you were thinking, and doing - the whole process comes over as a more human ond personal one, and I am sure that will be appreciated by many of the writers. It's sound journalistic technique laugh.gif


Hm, even after all I and Stargelman have said in this thread, and after the time I took to explain it further in the pm's we exchanged you would post a thing such as this.

Unfortunately some people can't take a hint very good, not even when it's right there for everyone to see. Just so everyone knows, Raggidman has been suspended for a short period of time for failing to comply with what was made very clear in here. There is a line, and you do not cross the line without repercussions.

I hope this will serve as an example for others. Look up my earlier posts, that's the line, please don't cross it.
Thank you.

Posted by: minque May 28 2008, 11:55 AM

First of all; Congrats to all the winners! And trey, I didn't know you were in! But of course when Trey enters a competition....times will be hard for all the others! wink.gif



Now I know why I'm generally not so very fond of discussions! why is it that every time there is some kind of competition, there also just has to be a lot of discussions, all of them not entirely nice..

Gah....I'm so tired of it, and I must say I'm almost glad I didn't perticipate!

The meaning of this should be to have fun! So please do not put so much prestige in it, just write, compete and accept the results, how hard can it be? kvleft.gif

Posted by: Jordy May 28 2008, 10:08 PM

While I understand some of the concerns people have expressed over the competition (though note I don't support the personal digs at the judges) it's a great shame this thread had to kick off so much. I hope there are future competitions, and that they're less controversial.

Posted by: 0rimus May 29 2008, 03:59 AM

Alex was kind enough to send me some feedback, and said I could share it if I wanted to. Well I do. And to my pleasure, Alex presented alot of his critique as questions. Question that I could answer. I probably should put up a spoiler warning, but to be honest, I'd rather have someone read this before my story, for preemptive clarification. Also, I'll give away as little as possible in my answers:

- Why did Nathaniel wait until the very end to show his true colors when he had far better moments for it before, like in the minotaur attack?

I decided to do this story in limited third person naration, and it seems I took the "limited" part too seriously. I didn't want the reader to know things that Sturm himself didn't know, or be more aware than he was. In retrospect I should've done it from first person, but I'm not fond of that form of writing, and I'm not very good at it (I always end up subconsiously switching back to third smile.gif

- What's the connection between the Dark Brotherhood and lord Rajah? If any?

This one pains me the most. It seems I got so far into my own made up world, and was so used to relying on the fact that everyone here (mostly) have played Oblivion. There is no connection, though I didn't specifically say that, and I did compare the two, so I see how people got lost. Shameful...

- Early in the story it's mentioned Sturm doesn't want to join factions, and then the thing with the Dark Brotherhood is mentioned.

Sturm just didn't want to be tied to one class, like warrior or thief. This is the affiliation he hopes to avoid, and he'll stop his travel to join any group (such as with the infiltration group) if they pay well enough smile.gif

- Why did they travel around from city to city after Cheydinhall and not pick up any new recruits until Bruma? Gives me the impression the travel was just to fill some time.

Time constraint. I planned on having the travel more detailed (including Fred being abducted by goblins, and Sturm leading the rescue, thereby earning his respect). Also, I wanted the travel to be more realistic (I increased the size of Cyrodiil drastically) and again with the (severely) limited third person thing: Sturm travels alot, and since I made Cyrodiil bigger, there was less interference along the way (I also made animals more docile). I kinda thought of it like when survivorman travels: A occasional shot of a bird or the sky, but otherwise nothing unless he runs into an animal. Kinda like a time lapse, or going in fast-forward. Also, some of the cities Erin and Stan already tried, and they acctually did stop to recruit like Chorrol, but were unsuccessful.

- What's the story with the daughter of Ocato and how she got at Rajah's place?

For the third time: I didn't want people to know about things Sturm himself didn't (so the surprise would be, you know, a surprise). And to answer: She was somewhat willingly abducted, Ocato doesn't pay much attention to her.

- Why the burning or even theft of the Elder Scroll?

As a display of being more powerful/capable than the Empire, and to piss them off, kinda like a Martyr, if the legion storms down there and kills the Heretics (deluded citizens of the IL, but citizens none the less) people wouldn't be too happy about it, and the Empire would lose even more support. They also wanted to bring the legion down there, for home-field advantage, hence the infiltrators mapping and gathering of info.

- Why is Sturm mistaken for a Teenager, even though he looks "deceptively young"?

I never outrightly tell how old Sturm is, cuz' again, he doesn't know himself. I acctually set him as about 19, but he's only around 5' 7-9" and has a kinda rounder, younger face. Due to the variety of races present, and the amount and variations of half-breeds, height isn't usually used to gauge age, instead facial features (scars, worry lines) are used, at least in my version of TES.

While I'm at it; back when I was saying it seemed like people weren't reading my story, it was because of the lack of varied feedback (or feedback in general). I had more proof that someone had read my story when they mentioned something they could only glean form reading it themselves. So when everyone else kept bringing my grammar errors into the fray (really annoying) they could get that by just looking back a few posts; without ever reading my story. I am an extreme internet skeptic: If you give me no proof, I can only logically assume that you're lying. Anyone can look back and see that I spelt Daedra wrong the five or six times I used it. So when people keep bringing up a pretty moot point, without addressing any of the more important and obvious points (like Alex's post shows) it shows either that A.) They didn't read my stroy. Or B.) They care more about grammar than a good story or any other part of the story, so if I'd gone through and and wrote:
"I will not spell Daedra wrong." a few thousand times, people would have liked it better than what I submitted.

"If you only tell me things that don't help me; I can only assume you don't want to help me."

Given; you could've thought that bringing up the grammar thing was helpful, but when someone (I forget who) said: "It'd have been better with a little polish" That was sufficient. Maybe you didn't see the many preceeding posts about my very small grammar problem, which again, I was aware of in the first place. But I also believe you should read the entire thread before posting. Which is kinda alot, but if you really don't care enough, then why are you here? You wouldn't jump into a conversation midway with absolutely no clue of what's going on, would you?


Posted by: Pheonicia May 29 2008, 05:35 AM

I just wanted to take the opportunity to congratulate the winners, as well as all those who entered. Great job everyone!

A big thank you to the judges for taking the time to run this competition. I'm impressed y'all managed to read through so many entries so quickly! biggrin.gif

If there's anything I'd like to see in future competitions, it would be an automated email or two. One to notify receipt of the submission(s), and one to alert those who entered the results had been announced. wink.gif

Posted by: kementari May 29 2008, 10:03 AM

Some particular criticisms:

QUOTE(0rimus @ May 28 2008, 07:59 PM) *

- Why did Nathaniel wait until the very end to show his true colors when he had far better moments for it before, like in the minotaur attack?

I decided to do this story in limited third person naration, and it seems I took the "limited" part too seriously. I didn't want the reader to know things that Sturm himself didn't know, or be more aware than he was. In retrospect I should've done it from first person, but I'm not fond of that form of writing, and I'm not very good at it (I always end up subconsiously switching back to third smile.gif


If it's unclear enough that the reader doesn't realize that Sturm himself doesn't know something (especially if the reader has already become aware of whatever that something is), then you need to either obscure the fact more (so that it's a surprise to the reader, too) or go more into detail with the character's journey to self-realization (so that the reader understands that it's a surprise to the character, too).

QUOTE
- Early in the story it's mentioned Sturm doesn't want to join factions, and then the thing with the Dark Brotherhood is mentioned.

Sturm just didn't want to be tied to one class, like warrior or thief. This is the affiliation he hopes to avoid, and he'll stop his travel to join any group (such as with the infiltration group) if they pay well enough smile.gif


This may be my single greatest pet peeve in fantasy fiction. In real life, there are no such things as "classes". You can have someone identify himself as an archer or swordsman by what weapon he prefers, or have someone repulsed by the idea of being labeled a thief due to his innate sense of right and wrong, and in Tamriel, like many other worlds, "mage" is a full-time profession, too, but storytelling focus on character "class" archetypes is wince-worthy in fic.

QUOTE
- Why did they travel around from city to city after Cheydinhall and not pick up any new recruits until Bruma? Gives me the impression the travel was just to fill some time.

Time constraint. I planned on having the travel more detailed (including Fred being abducted by goblins, and Sturm leading the rescue, thereby earning his respect). Also, I wanted the travel to be more realistic (I increased the size of Cyrodiil drastically) and again with the (severely) limited third person thing: Sturm travels alot, and since I made Cyrodiil bigger, there was less interference along the way (I also made animals more docile). I kinda thought of it like when survivorman travels: A occasional shot of a bird or the sky, but otherwise nothing unless he runs into an animal. Kinda like a time lapse, or going in fast-forward. Also, some of the cities Erin and Stan already tried, and they acctually did stop to recruit like Chorrol, but were unsuccessful.


If time constraints didn't permit you to pursue a plot thread, you should have cut them out. The story would probably have had much more cohesive pacing without these rather obvious loose ends.


QUOTE
- What's the story with the daughter of Ocato and how she got at Rajah's place?

For the third time: I didn't want people to know about things Sturm himself didn't (so the surprise would be, you know, a surprise). And to answer: She was somewhat willingly abducted, Ocato doesn't pay much attention to her.


Right, but if readers are still wondering after they've finished reading, you didn't do a good enough job explaining it. There's a difference between keeping limited third person believable and simply not fleshing out characters' backgrounds.

QUOTE
- Why the burning or even theft of the Elder Scroll?

As a display of being more powerful/capable than the Empire, and to piss them off, kinda like a Martyr, if the legion storms down there and kills the Heretics (deluded citizens of the IL, but citizens none the less) people wouldn't be too happy about it, and the Empire would lose even more support. They also wanted to bring the legion down there, for home-field advantage, hence the infiltrators mapping and gathering of info.


Not to speak for Alex here, but I think the question (mine, anyway) was more pointed at the relative sanctity of the Scrolls themselves in TES lore. As a fanfiction author, it's often a little... hm, what's the right word? Presumptuous? to step on an area of lore that the official writers clearly consider sacred.

More to the point, it's off-putting to the fans, some of whom were your judges. Something to consider for next time.


QUOTE
So when everyone else kept bringing my grammar errors into the fray (really annoying) they could get that by just looking back a few posts; without ever reading my story. I am an extreme internet skeptic: If you give me no proof, I can only logically assume that you're lying. Anyone can look back and see that I spelt Daedra wrong the five or six times I used it. So when people keep bringing up a pretty moot point, without addressing any of the more important and obvious points (like Alex's post shows) it shows either that A.) They didn't read my stroy. Or B.) They care more about grammar than a good story or any other part of the story, so if I'd gone through and and wrote:
"I will not spell Daedra wrong." a few thousand times, people would have liked it better than what I submitted.


Okay, I've been quiet on this so far. However, enough is enough:

Mechanical errors (spelling, capitalization, punctuation, and grammar) are the single worst part about reading fanfiction. Seriously, you don't even have to be good at English anymore to have a flawless paper. How hard is it to use a spell-checker? Find+Replace "Deadra" with "Daedra", Microsoft Word has searched the document and made 17 replacements, bada-bing-bada-boom. At the absolute least, beg/cajole/pay someone with a better grasp of grammar to proofread it for you. Refusing to do this is like telling your judge, "[censored] you, I don't care enough about my work to bother cleaning it up for you.

Alex and the other judges were magnanimous enough to discount spelling and grammar errors completely (probably more for the sake of our international friends than people who just can't be arsed), but I guarantee you: it has an impact on what people think of your writing, and of you. It's like showing up to a job interview wearing ripped jeans or a stained shirt - it turns people off immediately, and causes the reader to make an instantaneous (negative) personal judgment call.

Just to make sure this hits home: You think people bringing up your mechanical errors is "really annoying"? I've been writing and critiquing fanfiction in various fandoms for almost ten years, now, and (internationals aside) I haven't found one yet where "This sucks, I'm five paragraphs in and the author has already made five spelling errors, I'm not going to read this" is considered an inappropriate response. I've seen fanfics - good fanfics, with great plots and believable characters - straight-up disqualified from competitions due to sloppy mechanical problems.

Count your lucky stars that the judges were kind enough to bother, and maybe consider an apology and/or a thank-you to those who actually did trudge through the whole thing, errors and all, and who were kind enough to point out your biggest problem so that you could correct it.

The sooner you get off this "it's JUST SPELLING, people, gooosh" cloud of misguided martyrdom, the better for you, and the better for us all.




I do hope (against all reason and evidence) that you'll take these firm words and learn from them, rather than just turn around and complain in your next post. Someone just stood up and told you straight about what you're doing wrong - be thankful; it may be the biggest favor anyone gives you for a long time.

Posted by: stargelman May 29 2008, 11:17 AM

Wow... chill, people. Take it easy. Stay cool. mellow.gif

Posted by: kementari May 29 2008, 11:22 AM

QUOTE(stargelman @ May 29 2008, 03:17 AM) *

Wow... chill, people. Take it easy. Stay cool. mellow.gif


Peace. The above is not an attack; it is criticism.

Firm, yes, but not unduly harsh. This fellow has spent the last three pages of this thread begging for honest, open criticism, and here he has it. If criticism is truly what he wanted (as opposed to simply a higher score), there shouldn't be any problem.

Posted by: Alexander May 29 2008, 12:05 PM

QUOTE(0rimus @ May 29 2008, 04:59 AM) *

- Why did Nathaniel wait until the very end to show his true colors when he had far better moments for it before, like in the minotaur attack?

I decided to do this story in limited third person naration, and it seems I took the "limited" part too seriously. I didn't want the reader to know things that Sturm himself didn't know, or be more aware than he was. In retrospect I should've done it from first person, but I'm not fond of that form of writing, and I'm not very good at it (I always end up subconsiously switching back to third smile.gif


Perhaps you misunderstood me at this point. It wasn't aimed at this being in third person, or at the reader not knowing about it, it was aimed at timing.

Please allow me to explain further;
you're Nathaniel, some fairly powerful mage, joined up in a party of adventurers for the sole, unbeknownst to anyone else, reason to kill Sturm. Suddenly you're attacked by a party of Minotaurs, confusion all around, everyone running everywhere, no one knows where to attack first because danger is all around them.
Had I been Nathaniel, I'd have used a simply levitate spell to get into a tree, night eye (can't remember if it was night or day during the attack) to locate Sturm, and kill him by shooting a lightning bolt into his back while a Minotaur is attacking his front.

That's what I meant with "better moments for it" Perhaps I should have said better opportunity's for it. smile.gif



QUOTE(kementari @ May 29 2008, 11:03 AM) *

QUOTE
- Why the burning or even theft of the Elder Scroll?

As a display of being more powerful/capable than the Empire, and to piss them off, kinda like a Martyr, if the legion storms down there and kills the Heretics (deluded citizens of the IL, but citizens none the less) people wouldn't be too happy about it, and the Empire would lose even more support. They also wanted to bring the legion down there, for home-field advantage, hence the infiltrators mapping and gathering of info.


Not to speak for Alex here, but I think the question (mine, anyway) was more pointed at the relative sanctity of the Scrolls themselves in TES lore. As a fanfiction author, it's often a little... hm, what's the right word? Presumptuous? to step on an area of lore that the official writers clearly consider sacred.

More to the point, it's off-putting to the fans, some of whom were your judges. Something to consider for next time.


It's actually not so much the idea of going into them, I wouldn't have any problem with it itself. I just thought there was so little meaning behind it, so little value. I mean if you're going to steal an Elder Scroll to read what is going to happen in the future (as I believe that's what they're supposed to hold) then ok. Taking an Elder scroll and changing the text on it to change the future, or some such plot, I'd probably have "digged" that. But stealing it and then burning it, only in a show for your own followers, seems to be underusing it a bit.

I guess that's what my question boiled down to, a feeling that such an important and hollowed artifact was underused. smile.gif

Posted by: kementari May 29 2008, 08:02 PM

QUOTE(Alexander @ May 29 2008, 04:05 AM) *


It's actually not so much the idea of going into them, I wouldn't have any problem with it itself. I just thought there was so little meaning behind it, so little value. I mean if you're going to steal an Elder Scroll to read what is going to happen in the future (as I believe that's what they're supposed to hold) then ok. Taking an Elder scroll and changing the text on it to change the future, or some such plot, I'd probably have "digged" that. But stealing it and then burning it, only in a show for your own followers, seems to be underusing it a bit.

I guess that's what my question boiled down to, a feeling that such an important and hollowed artifact was underused. smile.gif


I was actually referring to the concept of destroying an Elder Scroll, not reading, manipulating, or even stealing one. They're just a little... like you said, important and hallowed, to be used to make a point about how EEEEVIL your character is. There are plenty of nameless NPCs for that. biggrin.gif

Posted by: Alexander May 29 2008, 08:58 PM

QUOTE(kementari @ May 29 2008, 09:02 PM) *


I was actually referring to the concept of destroying an Elder Scroll, not reading, manipulating, or even stealing one. They're just a little... like you said, important and hallowed, to be used to make a point about how EEEEVIL your character is. There are plenty of nameless NPCs for that. biggrin.gif


Hehe, true that smile.gif

Posted by: 0rimus May 30 2008, 01:47 AM

Sorry, Nathaniel isn't all that powerful, in fact, almost all his little magic skill is only because he's an Altmer. And wasn't there some kinda of made-up reason for levitation (not that Nathan could manage it anyway) not being present in Oblivion? Also, Nathaniel was requried to NOT kill Sturm when he was sleeping, which is what he was doing well into the attack, also, as Stan said; they were chased off by a large group of minotaurs. Nathaniel is a great assassin, and a mediocre mage, but he's not too good in an all out fight. I'm not going to apologize for a lack of understanding microsoft word. I can't be expected to repair a car with no, or little prior experience. Every school report/essay I've ever done in my life was by hand, cuz I like my handwriting and can put more into it that way. As I said, I don't like typing, and in my comp lit classes, all we do is type-to-learn all year. I only learned of edit; replace, a week after I submitted, and I had to figure that out by myself. Think about it; in all my posts I've used both excellent vocabulary, grammar, and spelling. So if I put so much work into a post I really don't care about, what makes you think I'd purposely negelect something I poured my life into?
It has been said that since alot of people are ripping on the judges (perhaps myself to a small extent) that a competition might not be held again. Could it not be so for the writers as well? It's also been said that the judges were not professionals, and that they were judging an AMETUER competition. This is the first writing I've ever submitted to anyone, except a close friend of mine in RL, and I followed all the rules to the letter.

As for the elder scroll, I don't think I overstepped my grounds, and used only things the TES writers provided: I knew that an elder scroll could in fact be stolen and possessed; I knew that it looked like an ordinary scroll; I never stated what it did, or its purpose; heck, maybe elder scrolls CAN'T be destroyed.

I also don't think it's really needed for me to apologize to anyone, as I never harmed anyone to my knowledge. Again, if the judges really didn't enjoy my story for shallow reasons such as grammar, which was again, stated as not being a factor, then I feel I need to do the opposite of apologize. If it had been asked, it would have been delivered with great OCD zeal, flawless, and again again, I wished I hadn't submitted and worked on it some more, skipping the competition. I knew more people would read my great story if it was an entrant as opposed to another piece on the fanfic forum; Look at Lord Veneficus: He posted a story a while back, and has now posted five or more chapters, and all he got for his work was about four comments, some from the same person. I tried to avoid a similar fate, and enter my baby to get attention. If I owe anyone an apology it's myself, as I'm the only victim in the end as a cause of the spelling.

Other people liked my story, even a favourite to some. People requested me to redo it and repost it outside the competition, or post the sequel I'm working on. The judges restated that they judged on preference, and I can deal with that. But again; with so many people ONLY critizing my spelling issue, I can't help but think that maybe that's the only problem.
This is also why I'll thank the judges again; thank you for helping me with your help (looking forward to what BSD has to say).

I ask the use of logic: People still are insisting that I left my story unrefined out of laziness; even though I stated that this is not the case. You have ABSOLUTELY no proof of this skewed conclusion. If I say:
"I was physically barred from editting my story. Furthermore, given the requirement (or even if it was only asked of me) I'd have gone to extreme measures, going more out of my way than I should have to; just to appease the critics and readers"
But it was not asked or required. Again; this was an ametuer competition: If it'd been like a job interview; where I knew what was expected of me; and when something as important as a career was on the line, I'd have given my story 200%, instead of the 111% I put in. Saying my grammar was lax, and giving me helpful advice: like telling me how to use edit; replace, as opposed to just saying that I'm lazy and didn't try hard enough, It CAN ONLY BE SEEN AS AN UNNECISSARY PERSONAL ATTACK. Saying the errors would be better out, and calling me lazy are two whole separate actions, warranting an unequal reaction. I could've/should've reciprocated with an equally insulting post, but in my world chivalry exists, so alas; I cannot change the minds of those unwilling to accept. So if you want to believe that I put all my work into 49 pages for nothing, or to win yet another copy of Oblivion, go ahead. Swear words arn't needed to be insulting.
"If you arn't part of the solution, you're part of the problem."
"You can't handle the truth!" Lol, this last one's just for fun. How I can be so calm about this? I amaze myself even sometimes smile.gif

Posted by: redsrock May 30 2008, 02:07 AM

QUOTE(0rimus @ May 30 2008, 01:47 AM) *

I knew more people would read my great story

That right there is your problem, Orimus. Just because you do think your story is great, doesn't mean everyone else is going to think that way. It is natural for one to like their own writing, and treat it with extreme delicacy. But you are taking that too far. To say what you said in the above quote is actually very cocky.

Perhaps the judges didn't think your story was that great. And just forget about the grammer matter for a second, will you? Did you ever stop and think that maybe the judges just didn't like your story? Holy hell, what do ya' know? That's called life, Orimus. Not everybody is going to think the same as you do. The sooner you learn that the better. I hope you take my words seriously, because in all honesty I'm trying to help you out here.

Posted by: 0rimus May 30 2008, 02:37 AM

I do. I didn't expect everyone to read my rant thouroughly, but I said very clearly that I lost because the judges didn't like it. Also, self-appraisal isn't against any rules, and if I can't agree with what someone else told me; then what has the world come to? I would've let the grammar drop, but it kept getting thrown into my face. As I said, this should've ended with Chiglets post a long time ago.

"I'm guessing this was a typo, but you'll want to replace it with either laid down or the older-but-more-universally-correct lay down."

"Thanks. Microsoft Word wasn't working real well with its grammar corrections."

I like this.

"Your story sucks. I couldn't even follow the plot."-hypothetical.

Even this is okay, though rude with the first part, but at least it tells me something. I do apologize for saying I liked my own story. I'm gonna ask something I'm already regetting: Does anyone want me to continue writing? Please, if you're a lurker, or just want me to go on, then please tell me so. Even if you're one of the people slandering my good name, but all in all, acctually liked my story, then I'll keep said story alive. I know I like my story, but *sigh* if it comes down to it; I'll just write it down in a notebook or something. I thank the people who gave me support, without trying for some hope of just breaking me for some reason. I don't need friendlyness, I wanted fairness. So to Alex, and BSD, I thank you for indulging me, and the only thing I can offer in return is my stubborness to continue on a apparently rough course. And, against my bitter judgement, I thank those who answered my call for constructive critizims, even if it'd been said many times, especially those who understand the concept of internet ettiquette, I salute thee. We are few, but we do exist, and for my human flaws that make you think I speak too highly of myself, two points:
You don't, and cannot understand me, as I you.
And they say information is better retained with repition: "To err is human, to forgive is divine."
I'm sorry; to all, for if I did or didn't give insult, if it was imagined, I apologize anyway. If it was needed, there it is. If I bore no insult, but accused thee anyway, then I'm honestly ashamed.

"Walk straight; for a final solution,
Walk straight; don't you be so cold,
Walk straight; with clear resolution,
I'll state my case, and never turn."

Posted by: redsrock May 30 2008, 02:46 AM

Of course you should continue writing. But do it because you want to, and nothing else. Don't worry about what others think about your writing, because in the end the only thing that really matters is what you feel, Orimus.

Posted by: 0rimus May 30 2008, 02:57 AM

Thank you redsrock, I agree. I'll keep writing no matter what, I just wanted to know if others were interested. And I came up with some more suggestions:

If you take one of my previous points; to expand the time next time (if ever) on a followup competition, I'd also suggest having all judges read every story. I admit again that this is asking alot, but it's like playing darts; this was admittedly a subjective competition, so everytime you add another judge (dart) you exponentially increase the chance of one of those darts getting close® to the bullseye.

P.S, the lyrics at the bottom are from SOiLWORK. Also, the one thing I can't stand is someone who is heavily hypocritical; so to avoid becomeing the thing I loathe most, I apologize if my posts seem to be targeted assaults; which I accused some of you of. I meant none of them that way, but it's hard to interpret things online with no tone of voice.

Posted by: Alexander May 30 2008, 04:51 AM

Right, it seems everything that can be said about Orimus' tale has been said, and so it's time to move on. smile.gif

Posted by: 0rimus May 30 2008, 05:54 AM

Thanks. And; about time. Out of curiousity, who was the third long catagory judge? If they're alright with you telling me.

Posted by: Chiglet May 30 2008, 08:39 AM

Hi stargelman!! How goes things? Been a long while since I've seen you. smile.gif


The Elder Scolls are (from what I've been able to determine on my own) a written history of the future. They may or may not be able to be destroyed, though probably not as they are rather powerful magical items in their own way. The folding/spindling/mutilating/burning of one for real or just illusion would definitely get the attention of people though. And then one must consider what the overall reppurcussions of doing so would be for the whole world of Tamriel. They can definitely be altered however as is shown in the Thieves guild questline.

On the matter of any of us changing TES lore, well that's already been done by Bethesda itself with the SI main questline. Now that was a major shredding of TES lore and for me rather destroyed much of the enjoyability of that add-on. But I know of many people who absolutely love that change to the lore. So, what and how something gets changed really is a personal thing

The reason for levitation not being avaiable in Oblivion is the "Levitation act of (some year I don't recall)" I got that from an NPC's conversation I overheard while playing one time. smile.gif Nifty way of explaining it, though I'd thnk that most real baddies who could would use it anyways as baddies don't follow the law anyway. wink.gif And it tells me that levitation is indeed possible just not legal

Posting one's story in the fanfic forums for commentary is ( as I've found) a catch-as-catch-can thing. I posted mine here after the contest results were in with the hopes of maybe a comment or 2 on how the story was written. What I might improve for the next time I actually sit and write something. I know people have at least glanced at it, though the only comment so far is in regard to the pictures. smile.gif Ah well, hopefully those who read it at least got a chuckle out of it. tongue.gif

Ok. noticing that I'm starting to get rather scatterbarined here, I'll stop now. smile.gif Keep writing folks! Practice makes improvement if not perfection. cool.gif



Posted by: Kiln May 30 2008, 09:00 PM

Man things have been crazy in this thread...I'm glad that people are starting to cool down more but alot of the arguments here have been rather pointless. For those of you like me who didn't win, get over it. Alot of people lost but you don't see them here complaining.

QUOTE(Alexander @ May 27 2008, 08:18 PM) *
Hm, even after all I and Stargelman have said in this thread, and after the time I took to explain it further in the pm's we exchanged you would post a thing such as this.

Unfortunately some people can't take a hint very good, not even when it's right there for everyone to see. Just so everyone knows, Raggidman has been suspended for a short period of time for failing to comply with what was made very clear in here. There is a line, and you do not cross the line without repercussions.

I hope this will serve as an example for others. Look up my earlier posts, that's the line, please don't cross it.
Thank you.
Ouch and the ref takes a point. ohmy.gif


QUOTE(minque @ May 28 2008, 10:55 AM) *

The meaning of this should be to have fun! So please do not put so much prestige in it, just write, compete and accept the results, how hard can it be? kvleft.gif
Quoted for truth. My views exactly Minky.

Posted by: Agent Griff Jun 2 2008, 09:43 AM

I think people have been taking either themselves too seriously or the competition itself too seriously. It's just something for fun, as Minque said, and made for amateur writers who write above all for pleasure.

Some of you shouldn't be so harsh on the judges and the writers or the competition. I, to be honest, hope there will be another one in the future.

Also, I'm very glad that my story finished fourth. It's something to be proud of when your story finishes fourth out of 27.

Congratulations to all the other participants and to the judges for taking their time to read through all these stories.

Posted by: Alexander Jun 2 2008, 11:07 AM

QUOTE(0rimus @ May 30 2008, 06:54 AM) *

Thanks. And; about time. Out of curiousity, who was the third long catagory judge? If they're alright with you telling me.


Since Haplo already posted about it, I see no reason not to mention it again. He was the third judge. It was BSD, Haplo and myself for the long section.


Posted by: Alexander Jun 10 2008, 09:54 PM

As it seems most has been said about this and there hasn't been a post in 8 days, I'm going to unpin this.

Feel free to still post in it though if you feel the need to smile.gif

Posted by: 0rimus Mar 19 2009, 12:41 AM

Threadcromancy! Anyone else feel like not much was resolved in this (ancient) thread? I'd love to see whatcha guys have to say after all this time. Not that I'm suggesting we return to arguing of course, just curious.

Some things I'd like to clear up:
Yes, I am an arrogant boat. This was a means of self-preservation. I tend to give up on my talents pretty easy; and this was early in my writing career (and yes, I still write). So I took ever little thing against my story wayyyyyyyyyyyy to harshly. Understand, I was young and passionate, hormone driven and defensive. I really didn't have any other works of writing to "fall back" on, if this one flopped, which it did, very much so. My accusation of the judges not reading my work, was not indignation (then nor now) at my lowly rank, it was the lack of supporting evidence; and could have been worded better, which it was initially, but as my search for critique bore no fruit, I, like any other human, got frustrated and resorted to means below my petty social code of ethics; for this I again apologize.

So why renew a long dead issue? It's simple: My oblivion game disc broke, and I forgot about everything that had taken place on this forum. Recently, I got the game again, started playing, and low and behold, I was thinking to myself "Wow, I could write some great stories based on this!"

So I think this thread was not "dead" so much as forgotten.

Posted by: redsrock May 8 2009, 04:35 PM

So you're an avid writer, eh?

Posted by: kellie Dec 21 2009, 02:00 PM

Some of the stories here are worth the competition. I like reading them.


Regards,
Kellie
http://simulationpretimmobilier.net

Posted by: mALX Dec 25 2010, 04:25 AM

Will there be a competition this year?

Posted by: Burnt Sierra Jan 4 2011, 12:11 AM

QUOTE(mALX @ Dec 25 2010, 03:25 AM) *

Will there be a competition this year?


I suppose it is about time we had another one. I'd rather just do a small forum competition rather than a large community one though - for several reasons.

1. It takes a lot of time to judge, and time constraints are a factor. The more stories, the larger amount of time required, and the less useful feedback given, due to those constaints.
2. We had a lot of problems in the community competition from people wanting things done their way. Problems we didn't face when doing the first forum only competition.
3. The announcement of Skyrim will inevitably mean an increase in interest. Whilst we can cope with new members here (due to the fact that all our existing members are very cool and all follow the type of forum we like to be instinctively), members from the official forums... might not be so accomodating. See point 2 tongue.gif

If anyone is interested in doing a forum only (and friendly) competition here again, just say so. If there's enough interest, why not? smile.gif

Posted by: ureniashtram Jan 4 2011, 12:55 AM


I have a question.

Will the competition be of Long or Short stories, or both?

Posted by: Olen Jan 4 2011, 02:36 PM

I'd be up for it.

Similar to the first small forum only one we had? If so was the anonymous posting a good concept all things considered? Certainly having the stories and voting anonymous was nessesary but the commenting did cause a few issues. Also length is something worthy of consideration, but I'm sure it will be in due time, for what it's worth I'm rather partial to very short fiction...

Sierra - I'd agree on all three points :nod:

Posted by: mALX Jan 8 2011, 02:44 AM

Yeah !!!

Posted by: minque Jan 20 2011, 11:30 PM

OMG....Well Maybe I should....write something perhaps?

Posted by: Tellie Feb 10 2011, 06:33 PM

I guess I could be persuaded to lend my incredible warped mind to this cause...either as a judge or a writer.

Posted by: mALX Feb 10 2011, 06:49 PM

QUOTE(Tellie @ Feb 10 2011, 12:33 PM) *

I guess I could be persuaded to lend my incredible warped mind to this cause...either as a judge or a writer.



WOO HOO, TELLIE !!!! By the way, I hope you don't mind that I submitted your scene with Lucien Lachance to "Funny Moments in Fanfics" - that segment still makes me laugh just thinking about it !!!

Posted by: Kiln Jan 1 2013, 05:58 AM

I wish another fan fiction competition would happen to kinda give the forums a jolt of new members and activity.

Not to mention it was great reading all of the ES related material that was written.

Also, I am aware that I necro'd this thread big time.

Posted by: King Of Beasts Jan 1 2013, 08:11 AM

QUOTE(Kiln @ Dec 31 2012, 08:58 PM) *

I wish another fan fiction competition would happen to kinda give the forums a jolt of new members and activity.

Not to mention it was great reading all of the ES related material that was written.

Also, I am aware that I necro'd this thread big time.


Don't worry. I've been bumping dead threads by accident constantly, so what you did is nothing compared to what I've been accidentally doing. Anyway....

I do agree with Kiln, a fan fiction competition would be pretty cool.

Posted by: Colonel Mustard Jan 1 2013, 05:18 PM

I'd be up for doing another competition as well, certainly.

Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Jan 3 2013, 06:46 AM

Same here!

Posted by: King Of Beasts Jan 5 2013, 09:25 AM

http://www.wallcoo.net/animal/White_baby_dogs_2_1920x1200/wallpapers/1024x768/lovely_white_puppy_dog_83170.jpg!Besides, it could bring in new members that will actually use their account.

Posted by: Illydoor Jan 15 2013, 01:56 AM

I'm in.

Posted by: Kiln Jan 16 2013, 09:47 AM

Alright, if you guys are serious about this, somebody should put a proposal through to the admins here. They set it up and ran it last time, although it has been quite some time since the last competition, I feel that the release of Skyrim has bolstered the number of ES fans considerably.

I'd love to see some fresh blood injected into the forums. Maybe this would be a good way to do it.

Posted by: King Of Beasts Jan 20 2013, 05:55 PM

Ok guys, I'm going to PM one of the administrators or moderators asking them if it's possible to set up another competition later. I'll get back to you with the answer soon.

EDIT: I just sent out a PM to minique, now I'm going to wait for a reply.

Posted by: Kiln Feb 9 2013, 10:25 AM

QUOTE(King Of Beasts @ Jan 20 2013, 04:55 PM) *

Ok guys, I'm going to PM one of the administrators or moderators asking them if it's possible to set up another competition later. I'll get back to you with the answer soon.

EDIT: I just sent out a PM to minique, now I'm going to wait for a reply.

No reply so far so I'm guessing that there was not really any support for it.

Posted by: King Of Beasts Feb 9 2013, 05:54 PM

QUOTE(Kiln @ Feb 9 2013, 01:25 AM) *

QUOTE(King Of Beasts @ Jan 20 2013, 04:55 PM) *

Ok guys, I'm going to PM one of the administrators or moderators asking them if it's possible to set up another competition later. I'll get back to you with the answer soon.

EDIT: I just sent out a PM to minique, now I'm going to wait for a reply.

No reply so far so I'm guessing that there was not really any support for it.


I haven't gotten a PM back...so yeah. I'm guessing the answer is no.

Posted by: mALX Feb 9 2013, 06:00 PM

QUOTE(King Of Beasts @ Feb 9 2013, 11:54 AM) *

QUOTE(Kiln @ Feb 9 2013, 01:25 AM) *

QUOTE(King Of Beasts @ Jan 20 2013, 04:55 PM) *

Ok guys, I'm going to PM one of the administrators or moderators asking them if it's possible to set up another competition later. I'll get back to you with the answer soon.

EDIT: I just sent out a PM to minique, now I'm going to wait for a reply.

No reply so far so I'm guessing that there was not really any support for it.


I haven't gotten a PM back...so yeah. I'm guessing the answer is no.



Acadian had to wait 5 months for a response to moving his final chapter to the archive, Minque is traveling frequently to cat shows with her gorgeous cat.

Why can't we set up our own? Someone can agree to be the judge (jury/executioner) and all the stories would have to be entered under the judges name so all the entries remain anonymous. All of us on the forum can vote for which story we want to win, the one with the most votes gets the prize.

We could use Treydog's "Rat Award" (once more) as a badge of honor for the winner, lol.

Posted by: King Of Beasts Feb 9 2013, 06:06 PM

5 months?! ohmy.gif

I suppose this is just a waiting game then.....

If I ever get a PM back I'll tell you guys.

Posted by: mALX Feb 9 2013, 06:33 PM

QUOTE(King Of Beasts @ Feb 9 2013, 12:06 PM) *

5 months?! ohmy.gif

I suppose this is just a waiting game then.....

If I ever get a PM back I'll tell you guys.



Why not do what I suggested?

Posted by: Grits Feb 9 2013, 06:58 PM

KoB, go back and read the rest of mALX's post. Sounds like a good plan! Rat award, lol. That's before my time. smile.gif

Posted by: Colonel Mustard Feb 9 2013, 07:03 PM

QUOTE(mALX @ Feb 9 2013, 05:00 PM) *
Why can't we set up our own? Someone can agree to be the judge (jury/executioner) and all the stories would have to be entered under the judges name so all the entries remain anonymous. All of us on the forum can vote for which story we want to win, the one with the most votes gets the prize.

We could use Treydog's "Rat Award" (once more) as a badge of honor for the winner, lol.

I'd be up for that, and I'd be happy to be one of the judges; I do advance reading of manuscripts submitted to a publisher, have review books and plan to study writing and literature pretty extensively in my free time and plan to do it for Uni, so I'd like to think that I'd be pretty well qualified for it.

I'd have to forfeit my entry, of course, but that's fine with me; gives the rest of you all a fair chance. tongue.gif

Posted by: King Of Beasts Feb 9 2013, 07:48 PM

I reread the post. That sounds like a good idea....

So we need some volunteers to be judges. Colonel Mustard seems to be up for the job, but how many judges would we need?

And should there be deadlines for when you have to submit a completed story?

We gotta work these things out if we wanna do this.

Other than that.....

This should be fun smile.gif

Posted by: mALX Feb 9 2013, 08:16 PM

QUOTE(King Of Beasts @ Feb 9 2013, 01:48 PM) *

I reread the post. That sounds like a good idea....

So we need some volunteers to be judges. Colonel Mustard seems to be up for the job, but how many judges would we need?

And should there be deadlines for when you have to submit a completed story?

We gotta work these things out if we wanna do this.

Other than that.....

This should be fun smile.gif



Yes, a deadline and a word limit so Judge Mustard doesn't have to become a blind Moth Priest for volunteering. Also, submissions should be properly edited.


Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Feb 9 2013, 08:31 PM

QUOTE(mALX @ Feb 9 2013, 01:16 PM) *

Yes, a deadline and a word limit so Judge Mustard doesn't have to become a blind Moth Priest for volunteering. Also, submissions should be properly edited.

Bahahahaha!

I wouldn't mind entering. Or helping. Whatever is needed.

Posted by: mALX Feb 9 2013, 08:49 PM

There could be a theme decided by either vote or the judge too, guidelines for the content to be written about so we could see what each of us do with the same instruction goals.

Posted by: Colonel Mustard Feb 9 2013, 10:16 PM

QUOTE(mALX @ Feb 9 2013, 07:16 PM) *
Yes, a deadline and a word limit so Judge Mustard doesn't have to become a blind Moth Priest for volunteering. Also, submissions should be properly edited.


Please yes to all three of those.

For a short story competition, I'd say that the best word limit, that's typically used, is between 1000 and 7000 words, maybe 8000. Plus that should probably take me half an hour or so at most to read and make a judgement on, so if we get a lot entries (considering forum size and the size of the fanfiction gropu here, I'd predict something in the region of 10 or so entries) I can get that done in a reasonable timeframe.

As for a theme, I'm not sure if that's necessary, to be honest; so long as we have it fit the general bracket of being set in the TES-verse, then that's all we need.

Posted by: Kiln Feb 9 2013, 11:23 PM

Maybe contact Stargelman about it and let him know that people are interested in doing another one? He was on just two days ago and is one of the site admins.

Unfortunately it seems as if almost all of the old mods and admins have gone inactive aside from him.

Posted by: mALX Feb 9 2013, 11:56 PM

QUOTE(Kiln @ Feb 9 2013, 05:23 PM) *

Maybe contact Stargelman about it and let him know that people are interested in doing another one? He was on just two days ago and is one of the site admins.

Unfortunately it seems as if almost all of the old mods and admins have gone inactive aside from him.



I saw Rane on here the other day too.

Posted by: King Of Beasts Feb 10 2013, 08:49 AM

I'll contact Stargelman. If he doesn't reply, we should follow through with mALX's suggestion. But before I send him a PM, do to guys want a big fanfic competition, or a short story competition?

Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Feb 10 2013, 09:16 AM

I vote short story.

Posted by: mALX Feb 10 2013, 09:49 AM

Short story. Mustard doesn't have unlimited free time, lol.

And I don't know if I would bother Starge with this, it doesn't need an Administrator supervising it. Starge already gives this site for our use free of charge out of his own pocket, and without advertising on this site he makes nothing off of it. We can certainly handle a small short story contest on here without putting more on his shoulders than the running of the site. It is done over at the Bethesda Official forums all the time without any Bethesda Official running it.




Posted by: Colonel Mustard Feb 10 2013, 09:44 PM

To be honest, it would probably be pretty easy to sort out with just one thread; I make the announcement thread, get people to PM the entries, pick a shortlist (five? Does five sound good?) and then post them up. I either stick a poll on the thread to vote for the stories with a deadline, or have people PM me votes, and then announce the winner on the thread.

Also, it does have me throwing around ideas for a Chorrol-based Read In a Rush competition, a monthly contest where people post up stories between 900-1100 words in length, based around a chosen theme such as as hunger, vengeance, redemption, night and that sort of thing. Maybe we can discuss that after we've got this first competition idea sorted out, but it might be worth doing.

Edit: Also, while I'm here, I'd vote for a story length between 1000-7000 words. It gives the writers plenty of room to play with but still means I should be able to judge all the entries within a reasonable timeframe (provided I don't get completely inundated by them).

Posted by: King Of Beasts Feb 12 2013, 06:22 AM

Ok, how many judges should there be? Should Colonel be the only one?

Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Feb 12 2013, 06:25 AM

Is this going to be awkward? Because we ARE reading each others' stories here, lol

Posted by: King Of Beasts Feb 12 2013, 06:34 AM

QUOTE(Elisabeth Hollow @ Feb 11 2013, 09:25 PM) *

Is this going to be awkward? Because we ARE reading each others' stories here, lol


People are reading your fanfic, aren't they? Is that awkward for you?

Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Feb 12 2013, 06:37 AM

No, I mean that we can see who the poster is simply by looking at how they write.

Posted by: mALX Feb 12 2013, 06:41 AM

QUOTE(Elisabeth Hollow @ Feb 12 2013, 12:37 AM) *

No, I mean that we can see who the poster is simply by looking at how they write.



I entered a story in the Feyfolken at the Official Bethesda Forums and not even Acadian knew it was mine. All my friends voted for another story.

Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Feb 12 2013, 06:48 AM

Ah, gotcha. Maybe I just need to change my writing style then, lol

Not have my character grin and shrug so much XD

Posted by: King Of Beasts Feb 12 2013, 06:49 AM

How will we manage to keep the story anonymous though?

Posted by: mALX Feb 12 2013, 06:56 AM

QUOTE(King Of Beasts @ Feb 12 2013, 12:49 AM) *

How will we manage to keep the story anonymous though?



You send them to Judge Mustard and he posts them all under his name.


@ Elisabeth - Exactly - since the story won't be about our regular characters, it won't have the same mannerisms. Example: If we see one about vampires or werewolves, we will suspect it is DE or KOB immediately. Someone else could slip one in and fool us, or they might write about something else and fool us.

For the Feyfolken, I wrote a very dark piece - no one knew it was me at all. Acadian has been reading me since forever and didn't know I'd written it. He hated the story, lol. (it won the contest though).



Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Feb 12 2013, 07:03 AM

-giggles- Now I'm excited! Squee! Having writer friends is AWESOME!!!!

Posted by: mALX Feb 12 2013, 07:10 AM

QUOTE(Elisabeth Hollow @ Feb 12 2013, 01:03 AM) *

-giggles- Now I'm excited! Squee! Having writer friends is AWESOME!!!!



I had a ball doing that Feyfolken, deliberately did everything completely different so no one could guess. Rachel the Breton did the same thing, she won it like 6 years running and every year you'd try to guess which one was hers - couldn't tell which one was her at all, I was surprised every time. I broke her winning streak with that dark story (about the 6th House in Morrowind) - see, I only write about Oblivion, so no one guessed. People see what they expect to see.



Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Feb 12 2013, 07:23 AM

I'm exciiiteeeed!

I wanna write! I wanna participate!

Posted by: King Of Beasts Feb 12 2013, 07:25 AM

You guys will never tell it was me who wrote my story evillol.gif

Anyway, so the entire story has to be how long?

Posted by: mALX Feb 12 2013, 07:41 AM

QUOTE(King Of Beasts @ Feb 12 2013, 01:25 AM) *

You guys will never tell it was me who wrote my story evillol.gif

Anyway, so the entire story has to be how long?




3,000-7,000 words tops usually, I think Mustard said he'd consider 8,000 but let him tell you.

HEY KOB, you can't start writing the story till the contest starts, that would be cheating.

Posted by: King Of Beasts Feb 12 2013, 07:42 AM

I haven't started yet. I don't even know what I'll be writing about blink.gif

Posted by: mALX Feb 12 2013, 08:09 AM

QUOTE(King Of Beasts @ Feb 12 2013, 01:42 AM) *

I haven't started yet. I don't even know what I'll be writing about blink.gif



That is one of the reasons why in these contests they usually give a subject like "A day in the life of..." so no one knows what it is going to be about till the contest starts so there can't be any cheating. (We all have the same amount of time to write the same number of words about the same relative subject matter).

Posted by: King Of Beasts Feb 12 2013, 08:30 AM

I'm happy that there is a theme. My story would never get finished if a theme isn't come up with. I have a really bad case of writer's block.

Posted by: Colonel Mustard Feb 12 2013, 11:51 AM

I've got (what I think is) a pretty good theme for the competition, which should hopefully allow for plenty of room for creative manouevre whilst still giving a reasonably useful/clear guideline.

Actually, shall I go and post up the competition thread? Give people a timeline of a month to write a story between 3 and 7 thousand words and then announce the winner two weeks later? Seems to me to be a reasonable timeframe to do it all in, but I'm willing to listen to ideas.

Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Feb 12 2013, 05:02 PM

I like it.

Posted by: mALX Feb 12 2013, 08:43 PM

A month to write sounds great, that allows for RL issues to still be handled.

Posted by: King Of Beasts Feb 12 2013, 10:31 PM

QUOTE(Colonel Mustard @ Feb 12 2013, 02:51 AM) *

I've got (what I think is) a pretty good theme for the competition, which should hopefully allow for plenty of room for creative manouevre whilst still giving a reasonably useful/clear guideline.

Actually, shall I go and post up the competition thread? Give people a timeline of a month to write a story between 3 and 7 thousand words and then announce the winner two weeks later? Seems to me to be a reasonable timeframe to do it all in, but I'm willing to listen to ideas.


Go ahead. The sooner we start with this, the better tongue.gif

Posted by: mALX Feb 13 2013, 03:34 PM

QUOTE(King Of Beasts @ Feb 12 2013, 04:31 PM) *

QUOTE(Colonel Mustard @ Feb 12 2013, 02:51 AM) *

I've got (what I think is) a pretty good theme for the competition, which should hopefully allow for plenty of room for creative manouevre whilst still giving a reasonably useful/clear guideline.

Actually, shall I go and post up the competition thread? Give people a timeline of a month to write a story between 3 and 7 thousand words and then announce the winner two weeks later? Seems to me to be a reasonable timeframe to do it all in, but I'm willing to listen to ideas.


Go ahead. The sooner we start with this, the better tongue.gif



He's already started it, it is in the FanFic section.

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