Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

> Complaining about a piece of Oblivion-given Morrowind lore, abolishing slavery leads to civil war, yeah, but the details...
Kazaera
post Aug 30 2011, 12:55 AM
Post #1


Finder
Group Icon
Joined: 13-December 09
From: Germany



(mods, please move this if this is in the wrong place? I couldn't figure out where this topic would go.)

So I was reading up about what happens in Morrowind post-game, according to Oblivion, and ran across this little tidbit.

Apparently Helseth incites a civil war, which he and his allies win, in order to break the power of the Great Houses and consolidate his own. And how he starts this is by banning slavery.

So far, so good. This sort of makes sense, given how fraught slavery is as a topic.

Except. That the civil war apparently happens between Hlaalu and Dres on the anti-slavery side and Redoran and Indoril on the pro-slavery side. Telvanni is Sir Not Appearing In This War.

First, the minor WTFs: Redoran is the in-game house that seems to make least use of slaves, and Indoril seems to be presented as very close to the Temple, also sort of military/religious and not a major slave-owning power either. Since slavery is also a matter of Dunmer tradition and so on, I could buy Redoran and Indoril *supporting* the major slave-owning Houses who protest against this, but have some trouble seeing them being the only ones... considering that of all the houses they would possibly be affected least from everything we've seen. (Hlaalu's got plantations. Worked by slaves.) I also have a lot of trouble seeing Telvanni stand by and do nothing, considering they're very pro-slavery and use slaves a lot.

But all of that pales next to Dres.

I mean, we don't know much about Dres lorewise. But what we do know is that: they are an agricultural House. They have huge, huge plantations that rely solely on slave labour. They are very anti-Imperial, very much Temple-supporters, apparently traditional allies of House Indoril, and very, *very* opposed to abolishing slavery.

blink.gif

I actually considered having slavery outlawed somehow in my Morrowind fic and ending up going "no, that would never happen because Dres would never stand for it." And now apparently, canonically, they not only have but fought a war to abolish slavery???

Especially because... you know, from Dres's description, this would totally ruin their economy.

Of course, apparently (I haven't played Oblivion myself so I'm going off the UESP wiki) you hear rumours that House Dres has "remodelled its economy from an agricultural one to a mercantile one". To which my reaction is twofold:

1. What, overnight?

2. ...if House Dres is the only primarily agricultural Great House, and it magically swaps its economy for one based on trading, then... where is the food coming from?

I have been continually WTFing over this piece of lore since I stumbled across it. Honestly - has anyone been able to make any sense of it? Because I'd love to, really, but I just hit "House Dres" and go "......what."


--------------------
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
Replies
Destri Melarg
post Aug 30 2011, 09:52 PM
Post #2


Mouth
Group Icon
Joined: 16-March 10
From: Rihad, Hammerfell



You’re right, Kazaera, it does seem backwards. Since I read this I have gone back into the lore to see if I could come up with a plausible explanation.

The thing that immediately jumps out at me is that each side of this civil war contains one house in Morrowind and one in Vvardenfell. I don’t think that we should overlook the fact that the alliances formed in that way.

I think that TK nailed the attitude of House Telvanni. Here's how I see the rest:

Pro-Slavery:

House Redoran –
I can see House Redoran on the pro-slavery side for a few reasons. First and foremost is their belief in Dunmeri tradition. Slavery has been an integral part of the culture for thousands of years, and continues to be because the Armistice Treaty signed with the Empire gave Morrowind the right to govern themselves. We have seen Redoran’s attitude toward slavery demonstrated in their willingness to allow slave hunters to search with impunity in Ald Velothi. As far as I can tell Redoran’s income derives from egg mining, fishing, farming, and the taxation of their various holdings. Not exactly the ebony mining (and smuggling) that makes Hlaalu so wealthy. It stands to reason that they would fight for the continuation of Dunmeri cultural mores and the right of slave ownership simply to avoid being crushed by an empowered Hlaalu.

*Yeah, I know it may sound a bit flimsy, but the evidence supports this: witness the lengths that Redoran is willing to go to prove corruption in the Caldera Mining operation. We have also seen Redoran take action against smugglers in Shurinbaal, a cave located in Hlaalu territory.*

House Indoril –
To me Indoril is the easiest to figure out. They simply hate the Empire and would naturally rebel against anything that smacks of Imperial influence. They have a tradition of maintaining laws in defiance of the Empire, and it isn’t a stretch to see them allying themselves with their spiritual brothers on Vvardenfell to oppose moving the Dunmeri closer to the Empire.

Anti-Slavery:

House Hlaalu –
Other than Indoril, Hlaalu is the easiest one to justify. Hlaalu only owns three plantations on Vvardenfell, and only two of those employ slaves. Arano Plantation employs one ‘hireling’, the sleeper Daynasa Telandas. Arvel Plantation employs slave labor, but since their main crop is Corkbulb root it is easy seeing Hlaalu either divesting themselves of the holding, or turning their slaves into ‘hirelings' by paying them a modest wage. Which brings us to the Dren Plantation . . . tell me, do any of us see the actual farming going on at Dren Plantation as anything more than a front for the smuggling operation? Ebony may be the biggest moneymaker on the books, but the skooma trade is what builds all the strongholds. I could see them likewise making all of Dren’s slaves ‘hirelings’ in order to curry favor with the Empire by a public stance of opposition to the slave trade, all while continuing to consolidate their own power through the trading of ebony, kwama eggs, and most importantly, skooma.

House Dres –
Okay, I admit, this one seems the hardest to figure out. First let’s dispel the idea that becoming a merchant house puts them in competition with Hlaalu. It doesn’t. Dres has no holdings on Vvardenfell and controls no interest in anything grown or mined there. Their main cash crop is saltrice, which Hlaalu doesn’t even cultivate. I can find no single area in which their interests and Hlaalu’s collide. The change from an agricultural house to a mercantile house does not occur overnight. Six years pass from the events of Morrowind (3E 427) to the beginning of the Oblivion crisis (3E 433). But why would they oppose slavery when their vast holdings of saltrice plantations depend entirely upon slave labor? One word answers this: Helseth. Remember, Helseth is House Hlaalu. He was the one who forged the alliance between Hlaalu and House Dres. One presumes that part of the forging of that alliance must have included the plan by which Dres began to shed their agricultural roots in favor of a mercantile model along the lines of their new ally. The profits lost from having to pay their now ‘hirelings’ a modest wage are more than made up by being Hlaalu’s ally on the mainland. One is left with the impression that Dres is not opposing slavery as much as they are supporting Hlaalu’s play.


I admit that none of that is a perfect explanation, and I submit that the more accurate explanation is that Bethesda f***ed it up. tongue.gif But here’s hoping that this explanation is at least plausible.


--------------------
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
Kazaera   Complaining about a piece of Oblivion-given Morrowind lore   Aug 30 2011, 12:55 AM
SubRosa   I noticed this a while ago, and mentioned it in on...   Aug 30 2011, 01:48 AM
Thomas Kaira   House Telvanni has never cared for anyone but them...   Aug 30 2011, 03:07 AM
SubRosa   First let’s dispel the idea that becoming a merch...   Aug 30 2011, 11:54 PM
Destri Melarg   Yes, but you are only looking at Vvardenfell. Wha...   Aug 31 2011, 01:55 AM
SubRosa   Well, keep in mind that there is nothing in the lo...   Aug 31 2011, 02:18 AM
Helena   There's actually no mention in Oblivion of Red...   Aug 31 2011, 01:26 PM
Destri Melarg   Obviously the East Empire Company has a piece of ...   Aug 31 2011, 06:50 PM
Helena   You’re right; there is no mention of Redoran’s par...   Aug 31 2011, 08:42 PM
Kazaera   I guess this is the sticking point: like Helena, I...   Aug 31 2011, 09:55 PM
Helena   I guess this is the sticking point: like Helena, ...   Aug 31 2011, 10:35 PM
SubRosa   This, exactly. Now I'm wondering, where are t...   Sep 1 2011, 12:06 AM
Destri Melarg   I don't fault you for trying to answer Kazaer...   Sep 1 2011, 12:25 AM
Helena   That's funny because the more I think about it...   Sep 1 2011, 08:07 PM
SubRosa   Who here thinks that we have put far more thought ...   Sep 1 2011, 11:24 PM
Kazaera   I think I've pinned down what frustrates me re...   Sep 1 2011, 11:28 PM
Destri Melarg   Well, the more I think about it the less it makes...   Sep 2 2011, 08:34 AM
Helena   Thank you for the lesson in socioeconomics, but th...   Sep 2 2011, 08:31 PM
Kazaera   Pretty much. I couldn't see any way to make ...   Sep 3 2011, 01:35 PM


Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 

- Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 28th March 2024 - 10:56 PM