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Black Hand
post Jul 31 2013, 04:04 AM
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Since we started discussing it in the Role-Playing Forum, the idea occurred to Elizabeth Hollow me to have a dedicated thread where any could go too to ask questions relating to Lore in general.

Now, I don't want this to be TES-exclusive as Bethesda has expanded their repertoire a bit, so I invite others who are indeed masters of their respective domains to jump in and answer the many subjects I will not be able too.

To keep it simple, I think a simple format of:

A.) Ask question.

B.)Loremaster quote question and answer, providing links if necessary as others may wish to learn of it in greater detail.

C.)Where it can be avoided, no needless quote pyramids. Okay, okay that's a personal thing...but still: So much quotations!! Though I understand, sometimes your on a phone and can't really do the detailed snipping.

Now these are only guidelines as I see it. Maybe you have a better idea, and should go with that.

Now, my 'expertise' is limited to the The Elder Scrolls Series, and despite my bragging, there are definitely maybe somethings I don't know, but may be able to point in the right direction.


Alright, lets light this candle! Who gets to ask the first question?
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SubRosa
post Jul 31 2013, 05:05 AM
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Is Talos so powerful, that he can make a rock so big that even he cannot lift it? wink.gif

Sorry I could not resist. I'll come back sometime with a real question/proposition.

Hey, how about Talos himself. We all have heard that Tiber Septim/Talos/Hjalti Earlybeard became a god. But I cannot ever recall seeing anything in the ES lore that describes - in detail - how? The most I have ever seen anyone say is that he somehow combined with Ysmir and Zurin Arctus in some sort of Mythic Critical Mass. Or that he "walked the walk" i.e. acted enough like Lorkhan that he replaced Lorkhan in the mythic.

But I have never seen anyone describe how you can combine yourself with two others to make yourself a god. Do you all jump into a blender at the same time? Step under a big falling rock that squishes you all together? Do a bunch of ogres all grab a leg or an arm and shove you all together in a big scrum? How come everyone doesn't combine themselves into gods? How come everyone doesn't just pretend to be a god so they can replace them and have uber powers?

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Jul 31 2013, 05:12 AM


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mALX
post Jul 31 2013, 05:05 AM
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Yes, what ever happened to Barenziah's baby that was fathered by Jagar Tharn? She was 6 months pregnant with it when they left Cyrodiil to return to High Rock. Where is Tharn's son and heir?




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ThatSkyrimGuy
post Jul 31 2013, 05:22 AM
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QUOTE(SubRosa @ Jul 30 2013, 11:05 PM) *

Is Talos so powerful, that he can make a rock so big that even he cannot lift it? wink.gif


Classic George Carlin...."Heavy Mystery Time"... rollinglaugh.gif rollinglaugh.gif rollinglaugh.gif


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ghastley
post Jul 31 2013, 06:04 AM
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QUOTE(mALX @ Jul 31 2013, 12:05 AM) *

Yes, what ever happened to Barenziah's baby that was fathered by Jagar Tharn? She was 6 months pregnant with it when they left Cyrodiil to return to High Rock. Where is Tharn's son and heir?

I think the answer is no. It wasn't Jagar Tharn's. It was "Nightingale's" - see the Skyrim stuff about them.


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Black Hand
post Jul 31 2013, 06:14 AM
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QUOTE(SubRosa @ Jul 30 2013, 09:05 PM) *
Hey, how about Talos himself. We all have heard that Tiber Septim/Talos/Hjalti Earlybeard became a god. But I cannot ever recall seeing anything in the ES lore that describes - in detail - how? The most I have ever seen anyone say is that he somehow combined with Ysmir and Zurin Arctus in some sort of Mythic Critical Mass. Or that he "walked the walk" i.e. acted enough like Lorkhan that he replaced Lorkhan in the mythic.


enantiomorph

1. Mirror image, form related to another as an object is to its image in a mirror.
2. Either of a pair of crystals that are mirror images of each other, and are optically active.

The enantiomorph is Lorkhan, with many, many avatars. Despite the fact that none of them necessarily know that the other one is also an Avatar, or that they are as well.


QUOTE
But I have never seen anyone describe how you can combine yourself with two others to make yourself a god. Do you all jump into a blender at the same time? Step under a big falling rock that squishes you all together? Do a bunch of ogres all grab a leg or an arm and shove you all together in a big scrum? How come everyone doesn't combine themselves into gods? How come everyone doesn't just pretend to be a god so they can replace them and have uber powers?


Talos, aka Tiber Septim didn't 'apotheosize' so much as realized his true identity. When he combined with the other embodiments, they mixed together for the same reason pouring water into water becomes inseparable.

As far as 'walking like them, until you become like them' doesn't necessarily mean you get their power.

For example the more pie you eat, the more you are in tune with gravity. By walking a certain way, you become more in tune with that sphere, rather than taking on their powers. Eating the pie doesn't make other things gravitate to you, per se, you simply become part of it that much more.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/m...irkbrides-texts

QUOTE
Yes, what ever happened to Barenziah's baby that was fathered by Jagar Tharn? She was 6 months pregnant with it when they left Cyrodiil to return to High Rock. Where is Tharn's son and heir?


Actually not he, she.

Written of in "the Nightingales, Volumes 1 & 2.

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mALX
post Jul 31 2013, 06:41 AM
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QUOTE(ghastley @ Jul 31 2013, 01:04 AM) *

QUOTE(mALX @ Jul 31 2013, 12:05 AM) *

Yes, what ever happened to Barenziah's baby that was fathered by Jagar Tharn? She was 6 months pregnant with it when they left Cyrodiil to return to High Rock. Where is Tharn's son and heir?

I think the answer is no. It wasn't Jagar Tharn's. It was "Nightingale's" - see the Skyrim stuff about them.



The Skyrim account changes history though. The Nightingale left her without mating her. She didn't become pregnant till during the Imperial Simulacrum; and that was most definitely Jagar Tharn. He was (then) assumed to be the Nightingale who tricked her into giving him access to the Staff of Chaos.

The Skrim account on Barenziah has jumbled her history to suit their storyline for the Nightingales, but before Skyrim came out the history and dates were clear on it.




This post has been edited by mALX: Jul 31 2013, 06:47 AM


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SubRosa
post Jul 31 2013, 05:29 PM
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QUOTE(Black Hand @ Jul 31 2013, 01:14 AM) *

Talos, aka Tiber Septim didn't 'apotheosize' so much as realized his true identity. When he combined with the other embodiments, they mixed together for the same reason pouring water into water becomes inseparable.

Yes, I have heard all of that before. I am asking for details, not for generalities. Again, how do you 'pour' three people into one another? This is what I have never seen an answer to in the lore. Did TiberTalosHjalti and Ysmir, and Zurin jump into a big blender? Do you dump them all into a big copper bowl and mix them with a giant wooden spoon? These three were together for years, so why wasn't there just a flash of photons being released the first time they stepped within x amount of feet with one another and suddenly they fused like hydrogen atoms into helium? Why did it not happen until years later and Tiber's death? I suspect that whoever wrote it (Kirkbride or whoever) was suddenly possessed by JJ Abrams and thought "We don't need to put any thought into it, lets just be weird, people think that's cool!"

But there is also a problem with the "alike mixes together" theory. A molecule of H20 that sits in a glass with another does not fuse with it into a new molecule, as Tiber/Zurin/Ysmir did. They are just molecules of H20 sitting next to one another. Or following the fusion example more closely, hydrogen atoms are exactly alike. I can throw a bunch of them together and they do not suddenly fuse into helium. It takes an outside force like gravity and the heat generated by the friction of said atoms being pushed together to exert such influence over them that fusion takes place. So what was the gravity/friction/heat that fused the three men into a god? I would have no problem with there being such an agency or simply natural act of physics. The issue of them being together for years and nothing cosmic happening begs for this to be the case. But I have never seen an answer to what is the catalyst written anywhere in Bethesda's games. I am asking for Oz to step out from behind the curtain.

I would have an easier time believing he somehow manipulated the Numidium and made himself a god, like the Tribunal and Mannimarco did. But boy, has that dead horse been whipped enough by now. Or as some people say that he achieved CHIMP, realized that reality was a dream and ascended to cosmic primateness. But both of these explanations make the whole triple fusion theory of Tiber/Ysmir/Zurin unnecessary and redundant. So then there is no reason to have it in the first place.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Jul 31 2013, 05:51 PM


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Black Hand
post Jul 31 2013, 06:02 PM
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QUOTE(mALX @ Jul 30 2013, 10:41 PM) *

The Skyrim account changes history though. The Nightingale left her without mating her. She didn't become pregnant till during the Imperial Simulacrum; and that was most definitely Jagar Tharn. He was (then) assumed to be the Nightingale who tricked her into giving him access to the Staff of Chaos.

The Skrim account on Barenziah has jumbled her history to suit their storyline for the Nightingales, but before Skyrim came out the history and dates were clear on it.



True. Bethesda often does that. Otherwise, I am not certain. In TES V 'lore' it was Dralsi Indoril with Karliah being her Granddaughter.

But also keep in mind how they had two different versions of Barenziah as well.

According to The Real Barenziah, Book V he wasn't Nightingale either. She saw him and Uriel Septim in a Vision when she was before Jagar Tharn in the Imperial Palace. She also had a suspicion:

QUOTE
Something had piqued her interest. "Symmachus. Could this Jagar Tharn have been the Nightingale, disguised?"


Something which Symmachus shrugged off as Jagar Tharn didn't have 'human blood' in his ancestry.

But, that doesn't take into account the power of Illusion spells which is heavily intimated that she was under a 'Charm' spell, and impersonating the Emperor, he certainly was more than capable.

But, this version was written by Plitinius Mero whom the Nerevarine meets in the expansion 'Tribunal' for MW. Any information he would have learned and uncovered was still subject to Barenziah's manipulations. Though she did take him under her wing to protect him from the Imperial Family.

So it would appear the Dev's intentionally left it ambiguous to let the players draw their own conclusions, which they are more or less famous for. Disappearance of the Dwarves and the multiple possibilities for it being among those.

But, yes I know what happened to the Dwarves.
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Black Hand
post Jul 31 2013, 06:21 PM
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QUOTE(SubRosa @ Jul 31 2013, 09:29 AM) *

*snip-snip-snippity-snip*



You're thinking in misguided terms. They were never separate to begin with.

QUOTE
Lorkhan and his avatars:

1. Wulfharth L
2. Hjalti O
3. Ysmir R
4. Talos K
5. Arctus H
6. Septim A
N


Much like Pando may appear to be an entire forest of different trees, they reach far below into the ground with a single unifying aspect. Each of these trees has been tested and they are all genetically identical. Much the same for Lorkhan's Avatar's and "Shezzarines".

Lorkhan and his avatars 'poke' through the game reality and fulfill roles. Kind of like the Movie K-Pax with Kevin Spacey and his reply as to why he appeared human:

QUOTE
Why is a soap bubble round? Because it is the most energy efficient configuration. Similarly, on your planet I look like you; on K-PAX I look like a K-Paxian.


Otherwise, I don't think it's been addressed in that particular fashion. So, I'm at a loss to know how to explain it otherwise, it is ultimately, just a game and the breadth of our scientific knowledge most likely would not be applied to all of it's concepts.

This post has been edited by Black Hand: Jul 31 2013, 07:00 PM
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mALX
post Jul 31 2013, 06:26 PM
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Much better answer, because the Skyrim version flies in the face of history and alters the story to suit its own self. I like that you included charm in the spell and not just illusion; that piqued my interest and I'm sure you are right about it.




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Black Hand
post Jul 31 2013, 06:36 PM
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QUOTE(mALX @ Jul 31 2013, 10:26 AM) *

Much better answer, because the Skyrim version flies in the face of history and alters the story to suit its own self. I like that you included charm in the spell and not just illusion; that piqued my interest and I'm sure you are right about it.



Maybe.

I've tried to do some deeper delving, I just don't think it was ever addressed in official or unofficial lore.

The Skyrim version appears to be the only continuation to the story. And even 'could' be true. It may be a revelation that they had in mind years ago rather than outright butchering.
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SubRosa
post Jul 31 2013, 07:13 PM
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QUOTE(Black Hand @ Jul 31 2013, 01:21 PM) *

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Jul 31 2013, 09:29 AM) *

*snip-snip-snippity-snip*



You're thinking in misguided terms. They were never separate to begin with.

QUOTE
Lorkhan and his avatars:

1. Wulfharth L
2. Hjalti O
3. Ysmir R
4. Talos K
5. Arctus H
6. Septim A
N


Much like Pando may appear to be an entire forest of different trees, they reach far below into the ground with a single unifying aspect.

Lorkhan and his avatars 'poke' through the game reality and fulfill roles. Kind of like the Movie K-Pax with Kevin Spacey and his reply as to why he appeared human:

QUOTE
Why is a soap bubble round? Because it is the most energy efficient configuration. Similarly, on your planet I look like you; on K-PAX I look like a K-Paxian.


Otherwise, I don't think it's been addressed in that particular fashion. So, I'm at a loss to know how to explain it otherwise.

If they were never separate to begin with, then why were they walking around as 3 separate people until suddenly they combined into one? Why are they in three different places in the list above, with three different names? Why don't three of the tree trunks in Pando suddenly all grow together into a single tree trunk, and become something else that is not a tree trunk? Because that is what happened to Tiber/Zurin/Ysmir. They ceased to exist as separate tree trunks with a similar root system, and joined together into something that is not a tree trunk. Something that replaced all of the other tree trunks, and the rest of the root system.

That Pando analogy also applies to everyone and everything existing in the world as well. Every person, every rock, every whiff of air is a little piece of a deity that existed before Mundus was created. Everything is an avatar. Everything is alike. Why don't they all fuse together and become gods at dramatic moments? If 3 avatars of Lorkhan combine, then the others must combine as well. If the others do not combine, then the 3 avatars of Lorkhan cannot either. Just like Kirkbride, I can just as easily make a list of names from characters and spell out anything I like with it. But that does not make the people I list suddenly combine together into gods. For that matter, I can just as easily say that the fingers on my hand are all avatars of me. They are all the same, not separate, because they all grow out of my hand, and thusly out of me. Plus I can poke them into all sorts of things. wink.gif Therefore they must physically combine together and replace me in the mythic sense? If a world is to be believable, it must be consistent with itself.

Finally, 'fulfilling roles' just strikes me as a cop out for a writer who has not placed any thought into their work. If I jump in the ocean, I do not suddenly grow gills because that fulfills a role, and is an efficient use of energy. It is Deus Ex Machina. Something happens because the writer said so, because they think it is 'cool', or it gets them out of a problem they have written themselves into. Not because it is consistent with the world that has been created. That is why I made the JJ Abrams reference earlier.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Jul 31 2013, 07:42 PM


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mALX
post Jul 31 2013, 07:31 PM
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QUOTE(SubRosa @ Jul 31 2013, 02:13 PM) *

If they were never separate to begin with, then why were they walking around as 3 separate people until suddenly they combined into one? Why are they in three different places in the list above, with three different names? Why don't three of the tree trunks in Pando suddenly all grow together into a single tree trunk, and become something else that is not a tree trunk? Because that is what happened to Tiber/Zurin/Ysmir. They ceased to exist as separate tree trunks with a similar root system, and joined together into something that is not a tree trunk.

That Pando analogy also applies to everyone and everything existing in the world as well. Every person, every rock, every whiff of air is a little piece of a deity that existed before Mundus was created. Everything is an avatar. Everything is alike. Why don't they all fuse together and become gods at dramatic moments? If 3 avatars of Lorkhan combine, then the others must combine as well. If the others do not combine, then the 3 avatars of Lorkhan cannot either. I can just as easily make a list of names from characters and spell out anything I like with it. But that does not make the people I list suddenly combine together into gods. If a world is to be believable, it must be consistent with itself.

Finally, 'fulfilling roles' just strikes me as a cop out for a writer who has not placed any thought into their work. If I jump in the ocean, I do not suddenly grow gills because that fulfills a role, and is an efficient use of energy. It is Deus Ex Machina. Something happens because the writer said so, because they think it is 'cool', or it gets them out of a problem they have written themselves into. Not because it is consistent with the world that has been created. That is why I made the JJ Abrams reference earlier.



Maybe the writers were making a quasi comparison to the Christian religion's Holy Trinity = God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit





This post has been edited by mALX: Jul 31 2013, 07:32 PM


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SubRosa
post Jul 31 2013, 07:34 PM
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QUOTE(mALX @ Jul 31 2013, 02:31 PM) *

Maybe the writers were making a quasi comparison to the Christian religion's Holy Trinity = God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit

Now that really would be interesting. If they were doing that, they should have gone further. I think it would have made for a stronger setting. Neon Genesis Evangelion is filled to the brim with Christian symbology, and that is one of the things that makes it such a powerful story (if they could just make a decent ending it would be great... For Evangelion that is, not Christianity. wink.gif)

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mALX
post Jul 31 2013, 07:41 PM
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QUOTE(Black Hand @ Jul 31 2013, 01:36 PM) *


Maybe.

I've tried to do some deeper delving, I just don't think it was ever addressed in official or unofficial lore.

The Skyrim version appears to be the only continuation to the story. And even 'could' be true. It may be a revelation that they had in mind years ago rather than outright butchering.



The "Elder Scrolls Wiki" has been completely revamped to accomodate the new story, however the Imperial Library and UESP Wiki's plus "The Real Barenziah" have maintaned the history as it has always been; just added the new story at the bottom so it is left open how the reader/Player wants to use or discard which story they want to. One of the reasons I don't use the "Elder Scrolls Wiki" if I want the original lore.




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mALX
post Jul 31 2013, 07:47 PM
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QUOTE(SubRosa @ Jul 31 2013, 02:34 PM) *

QUOTE(mALX @ Jul 31 2013, 02:31 PM) *

Maybe the writers were making a quasi comparison to the Christian religion's Holy Trinity = God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit

Now that really would be interesting. If they were doing that, they should have gone further. I think it would have made for a stronger setting. Neon Genesis Evangelion is filled to the brim with Christian symbology, and that is one of the things that makes it such a powerful story (if they could just make a decent ending it would be great... For Evangelion that is, not Christianity. wink.gif)



Lol on the phrasing, and true. I've noticed the same thing in both Elder Scrolls and Fallout 3 - symbolism as reference to RL events/beliefs/people/lyrics/etc. (Easter Eggs) Most of those have been "outed" though, which makes me think I am probably wrong about this one. Just a guess though, lol.




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Black Hand
post Jul 31 2013, 08:15 PM
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QUOTE(SubRosa @ Jul 31 2013, 11:13 AM) *


If they were never separate to begin with, then why were they walking around as 3 separate people until suddenly they combined into one? Why are they in three different places in the list above, with three different names? Why don't three of the tree trunks in Pando suddenly all grow together into a single tree trunk, and become something else that is not a tree trunk? Because that is what happened to Tiber/Zurin/Ysmir. They ceased to exist as separate tree trunks with a similar root system, and joined together into something that is not a tree trunk. Something that replaced all of the other tree trunks, and the rest of the root system.


Again, Pando is in fact one organism. The illusion of separation, one that they themselves are under is there.

It's much the same at the end of Bloodmoon, when Hircine offers you to fight one of his aspects. They are there because he wills it so. It's likely he could separate himself into all three at once, and they would not 'fuse' together.



QUOTE
That Pando analogy also applies to everyone and everything existing in the world as well. Every person, every rock, every whiff of air is a little piece of a deity that existed before Mundus was created.



Yes, the et'Ada precursor spirits of the Aedra and Daedra. Descendents of Anu and Padomay.

QUOTE
Everything is an avatar. Everything is alike. Why don't they all fuse together and become gods at dramatic moments? If 3 avatars of Lorkhan combine, then the others must combine as well. If the others do not combine, then the 3 avatars of Lorkhan cannot either.


Not necessarily. Again, Lorkhan is a God. While, it may seem a 'cop-out' it is really that simple as: "He willed it to be so." He created the Aurbis, alongside the other et'Ada who became Aedra in the process. The Earth-Bones are the Ehlnofey, or the Laws of Physics. The Aedra and Daedra are both embodiments of their spheres and quite literally *are* their spheres.

In that Akatosh and Lorkhan are one in the same. Akatosh = Time, Lorkhan = Space. Two sides of the same coin. And Lorkhan and Akatosh have both been called 'insane'.


QUOTE
Finally, 'fulfilling roles' just strikes me as a cop out for a writer who has not placed any thought into their work. If I jump in the ocean, I do not suddenly grow gills because that fulfills a role, and is an efficient use of energy. It is Deus Ex Machina. Something happens because the writer said so, because they think it is 'cool', or it gets them out of a problem they have written themselves into. Not because it is consistent with the world that has been created. That is why I made the JJ Abrams reference earlier.


Exactly! Whether you realize it or not, you came closer to understanding with this than not. The thing with TES-Lore is, it's all a subtle wink at the player.

QUOTE
Don't forget that gods can be shaped by the mythopoeic forces of the mantlers-- so Tosh Raka could be an Akaviri avatar of Akatosh with a grudge against his mirror-brother in Cyrodiil.

Just like Akatosh-as-we-usually-know-him could time-scheme against his mirror-brother of the Nords, Alduin, to keep the present kalpa-- perhaps his favorite-- from being eaten.

Notice all the coulds.



QUOTE
"It's difficult to accuse someone of being wrong for asking the theoretical question "Is it possible, as is the case throughout this game, that some of the writings we find are exaggerated"?"

I prefer, "It is very possible, as is the case throughout this magical world, that some of the exaggerated claims made about some subjects pale in comparison to the Monkey Truth. ZOMGWTFGIANTFEATHEREDFLUTYRANTS."


The unifying aspect is "Mythopoeic Forces".

You are aware of the concept throughout many genre's that the more a particular god is worshipped, the stronger they become?

It's like this with "walk like them" (though not 100%). It does not mean that if you jump in the Ocean you grow gills, I'm sorry if I presented it in such a way that would cause that interpretation. More accurately, if you jump in the ocean, more water gets displaced, and it becomes more...'powerful' in the sense that there is now less land.

Tamriel is a world that can be altered through belief and worship (and the construction set/creation kit hence the wink, no it's not literal in that sense.) Which is why the Aedra seem to favor Men over Mer.

Point the first: Sheogorath/Jyggalag wanted the CoC to take the Mantle of Sheogorath, because symbols are very important in the Aurbis.

Point the Second: The Thalmor want to eliminate the worship of Talos, so they can weaken Lorkhan and unravel the world and return to their et'Ada states. Whether or not this is possible remains to be seen.

QUOTE
To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum's iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison.

To achieve this goal, we must:

1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.

2) Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated.

3) With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once travelled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit.


Point the Third: It is no coincidence that Tiber Septim was an aspect of Lorkhan, or that he forged the Empire. Stasis and Change. Men think of the world as a good thing, thus they are more in line with the Aedra and encourage worship thereof, therefore Stasis, which the Empire was/is symbolic of.

Daedra represent Change, Chaos. The Padomaics. The Aedra represent Stasis, Order. The Anuics.

That world is very consistent in and of itself, if understood in it's own terms.
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SubRosa
post Jul 31 2013, 08:51 PM
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I am sorry Blackie, but I still do not see an answer to my question. I think you are missing what I am asking, and going off on tangents. I am looking for a direct answer - in the games - to how three fingers on my hand grew together and replaced me? And why do not three fingers on everyone else's hands not all do the same?

I do not have a problem with avatars being similar because they come from a similar source. Just like I have no trouble believing that my fingers are similar because they come from a similar source. But that does not automatically make them replace me. Something else has to happen to catalyze that event. What is that catalyst?

I also have no issues with the idea that belief can shape reality. I could easily believe that the trio became Talos and that entity replaced Lorkhan just because everyone in the world believed it. That is exactly the kind of answer I am looking for: a specific cause for a specific effect. But I honestly cannot recall ever seeing that said anywhere in the games, either in a book or through dialogue with characters. I have looked through all the in game books (or at least I think I have), and the most any say is that Tiber died in the year 3E 38. But I never see details about how he became a god after that. If there is an in-game book that directly states that, you could just link to it and I would be happy with that answer. Very happy to be honest.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Jul 31 2013, 09:17 PM


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Black Hand
post Jul 31 2013, 10:23 PM
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From: Where the sun shines everyday in hell.



QUOTE(SubRosa @ Jul 31 2013, 12:51 PM) *

I am sorry Blackie, but I still do not see an answer to my question. I think you are missing what I am asking, and going off on tangents.

But I never see details about how he became a god after that. If there is an in-game book that directly states that, you could just link to it and I would be happy with that answer. Very happy to be honest.




The error lies in the perception. Not seeing the forest for the trees. You're saying fingers, I'm saying hand. The fingers do still exist, but the hand is what grasps.

It's more of a paradigm shift than an apotheosis, as they all were the same god to begin with.

That is also the reason it's never been addressed as such.

Just one final tangent:

Let's say Tiber Septim was the Nerevarine, He would have sundered his own heart with the final events of the MQ in Morrowind. Thus the fractal, insane nature of Lorkhan.

Talos is just another fractal of Lorkhan. The 'hand' if you will.

As far as the worship of Talos, in-game it's just a form of God-Hero worship, and they just so happened to have gotten it right when they lifted him above his station. Where they describe the process of the Three-In-One Talos, no I've never come across it, and your observation (which is astute, by the way, please don't misunderstand me smile.gif ) is the first I've come across it.

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