Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: King Of Beasts Jan 12 2013, 03:54 AM

Welcome! Which side are you on? Are you a strong, patriotic Stormcloak? Or are you a loyal, sophisticated Imperial? What about a powerful Thalmor Mage? Do you believe Ulfric Stormcloak truly cares about the good people of Skyrim, and agree that the Empire has turned it's back on Skyrim and Talos, or do you believe that the Stormcloaks are just a bunch of rebels, under a false leader who cares about nobody but himself? Perhaps you're a Thalmor agent who's just going to sit back and enjoy the show?

Please no arguing, insulting, flaming, etc, etc. Debates are welcome as long as they don't get out of hand. In this thread you can pick what side you chose and explain why.

Thank You,
-KoB

I chose the Stormcloaks. Honestly, the empire turned their backs on all of Tamriel, and abandoning Talos made everything worse. I think Titus Mede is a complete coward. I don't think Uriel Septim would have surrendered to the Thalmor even if he was at the wrong end of a Thalmor blade. He'd want the empire to keep fighting.

Truthfully, I think Ulfric Stormcloak is a racist, self centered [censored], but he does have a good cause.

Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Jan 12 2013, 06:49 AM

I smell a civil war coming...

Posted by: Colonel Mustard Jan 12 2013, 10:33 AM

I picked Stormcloaks. Yes, they are a bit racist, but they're also fighting the Thalmor. And I really, really hate those guys.

Posted by: Uleni Athram Jan 12 2013, 11:38 AM

The Redguards of Hammerfell. Fought the Dominion to a standstill to the point that they forced the highly militaristic elves to a peace treaty.

They forced. The Dominion. Who believes so much in their racial they crown themselves the master race. Who doesn't believe in any sort of peace between the 'lesser' races.

To a godsdamned peace treaty.

All by their own.

Bad. @ss.

Posted by: King Of Beasts Jan 12 2013, 11:04 PM

I agree with you on that 100% I just HATE the Thalmor. Not because they are elves, but because they banned the worship of Talos and think elves are the SUPERIOR race. I'm fine with elves, but I don't think there is a superior race.

Posted by: Captain Hammer Jan 13 2013, 02:40 AM

I support High King Balgruuf the Greater.

He's the only candidate that will advance the claim of a new Dragonborn Emperor over all Tamriel.

Thalmor can suck it when I fly a full wing of Legendary, Revered, and Elder Dragons to fire-and-frost-bomb Alinor.

Will probably need dragon-carriers. But, Ice Form Shout + Ship building = Habbakuk.

Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Jan 13 2013, 03:37 AM

HEAR, HEAR! As long as someone Horrible doesn't show up with a freeze ray, you'll be good

Posted by: Darkness Eternal Jan 13 2013, 08:09 AM

The Empire. I would admire them even more if they adopted Thalmor tactics and used it to subjugate their enemies.

Posted by: Colonel Mustard Jan 13 2013, 02:57 PM

I'd admire them even if more if they'd actually won the war against the friggin' Thalmor.

Posted by: Darkness Eternal Jan 13 2013, 03:08 PM

I would too, if they used the same tactics and inquisitorial talents the Thalmor did. They would more efficient, and they would fighting the Thalmor in their own game. You think the Thalmor got to their level of power by being too forward? They were sneaky, deceitful and perfect! I haste them, and I would rather see the Empire be like that, only because I dislike High Elves and the Thalmor's final goal is ridiculous! Seriously, turning Nirn into the Spirit Realm?

Posted by: King Coin Jan 13 2013, 04:02 PM

I voted Imperial. Read about the Battle of the Red Ring and how they took back the Imperial City from the Thalmor and what happened to the Thalmor general.

Posted by: Lady Saga Jan 13 2013, 04:53 PM

Stormcloaks, personally. They want to worship Talos and run their own land, and the Imperials should back off and let them. The Imperials merely joined took the lesser evil road (giving in to the Thalmor) rather than truely facing up to them. I understand why they did this, but I still vote Stormcloaks.

None of my characters have truely chosen and joined a side. Lord Haaf-Mersey and a couple of my others are Stormcloak sympathizers, but they have no desire to join them officially in the Civil war itself.

Posted by: jack cloudy Jan 13 2013, 05:15 PM

Hmm, I have a hard time making myself join the Stormcloaks. I just can't, even with a character who is best described as an amoral murderhappy honoured user. I had to go full force into evil territory with a Thalmor spy before I could and it still leaves me uncomfortable.

The way I see it, the civil war is nothing but good for the Thalmor. Ulfric ruins the Empire's ability to recover from the last war and prepare for the next. If Ulfric wins, the empire will have to commit even more manpower and resources to stopping him because I don't see the man stopping at just one province. If that dragon hadn't showed up at the beginning of the game, either Skyrim would have gone up in flames with martyr Ulfric, or Tullius would have taken control and restored the peace. Either way, the empire would not have to worry about the northern unrest anymore. (Hence the insertion of a Thalmor. In case they couldn't convince Tullius to give up Ulfric, who would then conveniently escape and renew the war, the spy would save him and infiltrate his court.)



But that is mere pragmatism I suppose. The real issues I have with the Stormcloaks start with the cart-ride. Ralof really comes across as too much of a brainwashed fanatic for me to like him and it only gets worse from there. I don't want Ulfric as High King. I don't want a guy who surrounds himself with bootlickers, who monologues to himself on how he is a true Nord who must be High King. I don't want a Sith High King who deals in absolutes. (You're either with me, or against me!)

Talos? Thalmor? Sure, the Stormcloaks yabber on about that, but they also keep yabbering on about Ulfric. Their personal anthem (which is as bad as the Imperial one, mind you) finds it important to repeat how awesome and totally kingly Ulfric is, while refusing to mention Talos and the Thalmor.



Then there is the true Nordness and upholding of the old traditions. Yes, it sounds nice on paper. But Ulfric is only a traditions guy when it is convenient to him. Kill the High King through trial of combat? Hell yes! Let us ignore on how I used the voice which the High King probably never even saw before. It shows how the High King lacked the ambition and commitment or something. (More like he lacked the training in fus-ing.) Also, the voice is a ranged weapon, which by its nature I would say disqualifies Ulfric in a presumably melee-duel.

But let the Moot happen, one of those other Nordly traditions? Hell no! They would not bend down and kiss Ulfric's boots! So damn the Jarls and damn the Moot! Let us grab some old crown thingy and tell everyone it is some super awesome duper crown that only the High King can wear (Ulfric). That will show them!


Oh, and I suppose there are the parts where Windhelm is a ghetto and falling to pieces in crime while Ulfric plays warlord, but that's really secondary to the whole cult of personality and fanaticism thing.


To be honest, I don't even care about Talos all that much. So what if you aren't allowed to publically worship the guy? It was an open secret that nobody, Empire and Nords, gave a damn about the concordat until Ulfric started screaming about it and invading the other holds.


So I'm not Stormcloak. Am I empire? I don't know. I haven't really investigated the other side of the coin in any depth yet. I doubt the civil war will really matter though. Given current tendencies, two weeks after the completion of the main quest, Dragonborn runs of to Atmora in search for Ysgramor's holy loincloth. Then Tullius and Ulfric both die, avalanches wipe out all of Skyrim and Falmer play football with Nord heads. Meanwhile, the Thalmor laugh.

Posted by: King Coin Jan 13 2013, 06:05 PM

Enjoyable read, the ending paragraph especially.


In short, I've found Ulfric to be a d*ck as well.

Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Jan 13 2013, 06:37 PM

He is a big floppy butthead. I don't like him, nor the Thalmor, and feel like the Empire is only doing what needs to be done to survive. But I'm not on their side either. With my first playthrough I played Empire's side because I wanted to see the ending of the quest.

Posted by: SubRosa Jan 13 2013, 07:07 PM

I am not a big fan of depriving people of their right to self determination. Perhaps that is because as an American, I come from a nation that was born from people overthrowing what we saw as the tyranny of a foreign power. Nor do I support religious oppression, especially not when it means the kidnapping, torture, and murder of anyone accused of worshiping the 'wrong' deity. Plus, I find that collaborating with an enemy that wants to destroy you is just plain stupid. Finally, when people try to cut my head off for shits and giggles, it really ticks me off.

Ralof was right, you really did see the true face of the Empire at Helgen. It is a state where people are kidnapped and murdered without any sort of legal recourse. The Imperials not only never gave you a fair trial or even the chance to explain yourself, they never gave the Stormcloaks any sort of trial at all. No one was going to get any sort of say at all there. There was not even a five minute drumhead affair where the outcome was already decided. Even tyrants like Henry VIII gave people a show trial followed by a first-class beheading. Instead these are people who murder prisoners of war out of hand, and it is so routine that no one even questions it. Given that they have allowed the Thalmor free reign to roam about the Empire and do the same to whoever they please, it really shows how low the Empire has sunk. Once upon a time an Emperor gave his life for the people of Tamriel. Now the Emperor gives the lives of everyone else for his own safety and comfort.

So I have to go with Stormcloaks here.

Posted by: Colonel Mustard Jan 13 2013, 07:17 PM

This is an accurate assessment, but I'd say it's an ultimately flawed (and pretty damn cynical at points; Ralof being brainwashed? Really?) conclusion; yes, Ulfric is not a nice person and maybe somewhat hypocritical, but out of all the big players in Skyrim he's the only one who demonstrates the drive, determination and, most importantly of all, ability to actually make Skyrim into a stable, free nation. And considering that the alternatives are the Thalmor who seem to be quite happy to kill or oppress every non elf or an empire that's proven that it's no longer strong enough to call itself an empire and lacks the power to secure its own borders or the freedom of its citizens, Ulfric seems to be the best of a bad bunch; even if they're not perfect, the Stormcloaks seem to actually have the best interests of Skyrim at heart.

Ideally, however, I'd have liked it if you'd have been able to broker a proper peace treaty between the Imperial Legion and the Stormcloaks in order to give the Thalmor a proper good kicking in not just Skyrim but in a good chunk of the rest of Cyrodiil, but I can see that being a bit of a stretch, storytelling-wise. The moral ambiguity and the fact that the game makes you think about your choices is better writing, I'd say.

Posted by: Lady Saga Jan 13 2013, 07:34 PM

It's two against one, basically. Thalmor and Imperials against the Stormcloaks. So yeah, it's in the Thalmor's best interest to have an ally they can now use to help them conquer other lands.

Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Jan 13 2013, 07:52 PM

I wonder if the next TES game will be taking down the Thalmor after they've gained control over all provinces except one small one.

Picture it: You're a prisoner of the Thalmor, and you're aided in escape by a n individual who "heard" you might fight the Thalmor. Then you could choose which side to be on, Thalmor or rebels.

Posted by: Colonel Mustard Jan 13 2013, 07:55 PM

Rumour has it that the next TES game may be set in the Summerset Isles, so something a bit like that could be the case, just set in the Isles.

Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Jan 13 2013, 08:32 PM

I kind of hope that once they finish with all provinces, they circle back and keep going.

Posted by: SubRosa Jan 13 2013, 09:53 PM

That would be 8 games, so it will take a while! But I do agree, it would be nice to eventually see a game set in High Rock again, or Cyrodiil. I would love to see Summerset first though, or Black Marsh.

Posted by: Colonel Mustard Jan 13 2013, 09:56 PM

Seconded. But I'd live for TES VI to be set in Hammerfell; the political situation there with the Forebears and the Crowns would make for plenty of choice for the players, and the setting itself would be a great one, I'd say, and rather different from the other games.

Posted by: King Of Beasts Jan 13 2013, 10:00 PM

TES VI should be set in black marsh. It would be pretty epic....

Posted by: SubRosa Jan 13 2013, 10:03 PM

The http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/?p=download book has some really amazing concepts in it. If Bethesda put just half of it in a game, it would be really interesting. But that said, the only thing I would not like about Hammerfell being next is that it would mean more Dwemer ruins everywhere. After Skyrim, I am in the mood for a province with a different extinct elven race's ruins (since every province seems to need one).

Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Jan 13 2013, 10:06 PM

-snort!-

Posted by: Colonel Mustard Jan 13 2013, 10:15 PM

Oooh, shiny!

To be honest, one of thing I'd like about Hammerfell setting would be the prospect of EVEN MOAR Dwemer ruins to poke around in; the lack of them in Oblivion was a real bummer for me. But each to their own, I guess.

Posted by: jack cloudy Jan 13 2013, 10:24 PM

Ignoring the derail for the moment. (Valenwood or Black Marsh is my choice)

Ralof probably isn't brainwashed. Hell, he actually says at some point that he isn't sure if Ulfric really is the best choice, just that he is better than relying on the empire. He also wonders if stopping the civil war and ganging up on the dragons isn't a better idea, which makes him much smarter than Galmar. Heck, Galmar is basically a bundle of bloodlust and 'Ulfric, you are absolutely right and we all want you'.

The problem that turned me off from him is that the intro really pushes too hard. On the Stormcloak side we get chilled out Ralof who chooses to face his death with dignity and tells Lokir he should do the same. The only time he gets angry is when Lokir doesn't know who Ulfric is.

Meanwhile on the Imperial side we have Hadvar, who while a nice guy, is a bit passive. When captain umbrella seller goes 'damn the list', he instantly snaps 'by your orders'. He doesn't try to argue or anything. captain umbrella seller has the voice of a real tryhard anyway, as if she's trying to impress general Tullius by showing how hard on crime she is. The Imperials also feature torturemaster creepy, who is exactly what his title suggests. So in the end, the intro very heavily pushes the player into the Stormcloak camp. And that is where I break. I'm just a paranoid at that point, thinking that it is too good to be true. And so I swing way too far to the opposite side than Bethesda intended.


If we take away Ulfric, and bloodthirsty bandits with a fancy title like Galmar, the Stormcloaks end up looking better than the empire actually. I don't think you can prepare for another war with the Thalmor effectively if you let them infiltrate you from top to bottom. It just doesn't fool anyone. The Thalmor know the war is coming, you know the war is coming, and you give them all the tools they need to screw you over before it even starts!


So after long internal debate, I am a Stormcloak. Under new management.


Edit: Because it isn't worth making another post so fast.
I
V
Morrowind had Dwemer and Daedric ruins.

Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Jan 13 2013, 10:24 PM

If I'm not mistaken, each game has their own particular set of ruins they focus on, correct? IN Oblivion is was Ayleid, in Skyrim it was Dwarven...and that's the extent of my knowledge of the games.

Posted by: Illydoor Jan 14 2013, 11:56 AM

Valenwood all the way!

Imagine the jungles, and with that the scope for environment creation, flora and fauna! Not to mention the ancient Elven ruins. I would hope a majority of the play would be vertical as well, from roots to canopy.

I'd love to see a moving tree capital as well (though they say its rooted itself now.)

Bethesda could go nuts with it. More bird types (though don't seem too prevalent in the last two games), more bugs and beetles.

Really hope they do it justice in TES: Online

Posted by: Lady Saga Jan 14 2013, 07:32 PM

Posted by: Lady Saga Jan 14 2013, 07:35 PM

This one. I'll buy the next TES no matter which province is next, but I would really want to see Valenwood. Second pick for me would probably be Elsweyr. Third: Black Marsh.

Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Jan 14 2013, 09:08 PM

I've been anticipating Elswyr since Oblivion came out. But even so, Black Marsh is a close second. Beast Folk don't get a lot of recognition in the human provinces.

Posted by: King Of Beasts Jan 14 2013, 09:55 PM

In still rooting for black marsh. Imagine how cool that place must look. Elsywyr(sp?) would be a good second choice though....

Posted by: Darkness Eternal Jan 15 2013, 12:24 AM

Either Elsweyr or Hammerfell. I want a sandy Arabian/Middle Eastern setting in the ES, and Khajiit and Redguards are heavily influenced by Morrocan and Middle Eastern cultures.

Here is http://www.keenandgraev.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Elder-Scrolls-Online-Introduction-Desert.png in ES online. Here's http://www.cinemablend.com/images/gallery/s46277/Elder_Scrolls_Online_13462760984017.jpg.

Posted by: King Of Beasts Jan 15 2013, 12:27 AM

I'm making a thread on what province you want the next TES game to be in now...

Posted by: Destri Melarg Jan 15 2013, 01:09 AM

From the desk of Anduial, Arch Mage of the College of Winterhold, and Thalmor Emissary to Skyrim:

I have studied this debate with great interest, and your words have moved me to take up the quill in my people’s defense.

For those of you who believe in the cowardice of Titus Mede: I suppose that devotion such as yours is not swayed by the counter argument that, with the full might of the Imperial Legion at his disposal, your heroic seventh Septim met his cowardly end in the sewers under his own castle while fleeing the wrath of fanatics of a marginal cult. Nor would I suppose that you care to mention that, upon discovery of the Empress Caula Voria’s true nature, your esteemed Emperor chose accommodation over conflict. Not only did he remain married to her, but he stooped to using their own children as pawns in the machinations they leveled against each other behind the closed doors of the White Gold Palace.

His biographer, Rufus Hayn, describes your sainted Uriel as ‘grave, patient, and cautious.’ He also says that he had become ‘conservative and pessimistic.’ Now I will grant that this change in his demeanor can be directly attributed to his decade-long imprisonment in Oblivion, an ordeal which would have surely broken most mortals. But I will also submit to you that this version of Uriel VII would not have been likely to run around smiting his foes with Goldbrand ... as Titus Mede did in the Battle of the Red Ring. Be careful where you assign courage!

To those who champion the Redguard cause: Lady Arranelya’s single army, alone, cut off from re-supply or reinforcement by the shackles of the White Gold Concordant, still manages to hold out for FIVE years against the combined might of an entire country full of Crowns and Forebears, reinforced by an illegally assembled Imperial reserve. Yes, we signed the Second Treaty of Stros M’Kai, but that was because southern Hammerfell was in ruins, the Alik’r takes up most of the middle of the country, and nobody really cares about the Wrothgarians. That leaves Sentinel, and it wasn’t considered enough of a reward given the time and resources needed to maintain it.

Here is the crux of misunderstanding. Personally I despise the term ‘lesser races.‘ I would prefer the term ‘other races.’ Not because I adhere to some naive assertion that all the races are equal. They simply aren’t. An example: I have spent more than two human lifetimes devoted to the study of the arcane and martial arts, and I am still several centuries away from my physical prime. That means I am capable of achieving a proficiency in anything I choose to undertake beyond the grasp of any human or beast. By definition that makes the races of mer superior to the other races. Notice I said capable, not assured, and this brings me to my reason for despising ‘lesser races’ as a term. Even the so-called ‘lesser races’ have it within them to achieve the extraordinary. All races contain that spark of the divine, the problem is that the gift that was bequeathed to you was stolen from us!

Before You condemn us for what you believe are our opinions on the nature of the races, you must be willing to step outside your perception as Human, Argonian, or Khajiit and see things from our point of view. Can you do that? Despite the preponderance of evidence that suggests otherwise, I believe that you can. You revere Lorkhan because he lifted you from something worse than nothingness. Now, whether you call him Shor or Sep or Shezarr, he is the one that raised you from non-existence to something approaching the divine. He gave you mortality by stealing immortality from us. You were raised, and in the raising our existing divinity was sundered. This is not opinion . . . this is fact!

Is this so hard for you to grasp? By your own admission you believe that, given the proper circumstances, a mortal can be lifted into the pantheon of the divine. Is it so hard to reason that the reverse may also be true? Is it not possible for the divine to be sundered from its station to languish on the fields of Nirn? I know you believe this to be true because you will all acknowledge that this is exactly what happened to Shor/Sep/Shezzar/Lorkhan. Why is it that you insist that I must recognize the divinity of your mantled hero while you refuse to recognize mine? Who is truly intolerant in this situation?

Imagine yourselves as divine aspects of the Et’Ada, or Original Spirits. Imagine that the smallest particle lifted by the gentlest breeze caressing the Gray Maybe does not pass unnoticed. Now imagine that another spirit deceives you into using your divinity to create something that will serve only to validate its own existence. By the time the deception is known to you it is too late to stop it. Your divinity remains untouched, but your consciousness is ripped from that divinity and spawned anew under the yoke of mortality in this Mundas that you were deceived into creating. And as if that were not enough, the particle that you noticed but a moment before has been gifted with a portion of your divine spark. It now calls itself man, wears armor, wields weapons and magic, and proclaims itself your equal!

How would you, as the 'other races' react?

Posted by: King Of Beasts Jan 15 2013, 01:23 AM

Destri Melarg has a point here. I honestly don't think elves are the superior race, but we should look at things from their POV as well.

And about Titus Mede....

I still truly think he was a coward. If he was brave enough to run around killing people with gold brand during the battle of the red ring, why would he bend his knee to the Thalmor? Seriously?! I have no love for the Thalmor, but even they probably would consider that a cowardly act. No wonder why the see the other races as 'lesser races'.

The Thalmor should consider looking at life through the POV of the rest if the races though, instead if scolding everyone else for not seeing life from their POV. So Hear me out:

Thalmor! You scold the other races for not seeing through your POV. Have you ever considered looking through theirs? Have you not seen the grief and suffering you've caused to numberless families? You wonder why the other races look upon you with hatred and disgust, yet you don't look with your eyes, only with your ego. What makes you the more superior race? True, the other races can be cruel, but why stoop down to their level? Do you not have the ability to reason and look upon the other races as brothers and sisters instead of bitter enemies?

Other Races! Why do you not through the eyes if the Thalmor? Surely you cannot be so blind and self-centered to want everyone to see through your POV! You believe the Thalmor are heartless monsters, but how do you know? The elves have families. They can love, and care, and worry. They've simply become fed up with the harsh words you speak to them with, and they decided enough is enough. Can we not consider the elves EQUAL to us instead of heartless scum that want nothing more that to watch other people, be it beast or man, suffer? Yes, the Thalmor can be snobbish, but not everyone on the world is kind. Can we not get along.

Must we kill each-other over pointless reasons? The divines frown upon brothers waging meaningless wars! We are one nation! Tamriel stands proud as the crown jewel of nirn, yet brothers and sisters bicker for no good reason. Must everything end in violence?

Posted by: Illydoor Jan 15 2013, 01:54 AM

I think he's more misunderstood.

His Empire is in tatters, the White Tower in ruin, his soldiers weary after years of war.

I think he did it for the people! Yes he won a great victory, but it was also at great cost.

Posted by: King Of Beasts Jan 15 2013, 02:15 AM

I never said he was a bad emperor. Only a coward

Posted by: Illydoor Jan 15 2013, 02:17 AM

No that's what I'm getting at. He didn't sign the treaty out of cowardice. He did out of necessity!

Posted by: King Of Beasts Jan 15 2013, 02:22 AM

I respect your opinion and I can understand that the Imperial Army was definitely weakening every day and that the Thalmor creamed them but come on.....

The emperor should at least tried to fight back himself instead of signing the white-gold concordat, even if it was necessary. Your debating with a die-hard stormcloak pretty much so I still consider Titus a coward. He may not be one completely, but he's still a coward. At least in my opinion.

Where was gold brand when he needed it

Honestly, I enjoy a good debate as long as it doesn't get out of hand and we aren't fighting each other with our teeth bared and weapons drawn.

Posted by: Illydoor Jan 15 2013, 02:30 AM

Hahaha die-hard Imperial here. We're practically Hadvar and Ralof.

Posted by: King Of Beasts Jan 15 2013, 02:32 AM

you couldn't possibly be anymore right about that.

Still, I respect your opinion and the fact you are an die-hard imperial. If you want the truth, I don't like Ulfric too much. He's an racist [censored].

Posted by: Illydoor Jan 15 2013, 02:50 AM

As do I, friend Ralof!

Don't get me wrong I hate the Thalmor, but the last thing the Empire needs right now is division. It's what the damn elves want!

The Stormcloaks intentions are true and honest, if a little prejudiced. Their timing and choice of enemy however is not so admirable.

Posted by: King Of Beasts Jan 15 2013, 02:53 AM

FINALLY! Someone who sees the Thalmor as I do! (no disrespect to any Thalmor fans out there....) but it is true that the Thalmor want us to destroy each other. Who could possibly benefit more from a civil war that the Thalmor?

Posted by: Destri Melarg Jan 15 2013, 03:04 AM

From the Desk of Anduial, Arch-Mage of the College of Winterhold, and Thalmor Emissary to Skyrim:

Understand that what you are about to see places both of our lives in the most extreme peril! I cannot stress enough the importance of you burning this missive once you have reviewed it's contents. And I don't have to tell you that this discussion should not be repeated.

Anywhere.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:_Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak *SPOILER ALERT* - Do not click if you hate having inside information.

Do you see? It matters not whose side you take in the Civil War. Either way victory will belong to the Thalmor.

Posted by: King Of Beasts Jan 15 2013, 03:15 AM

I go to that site all the time I'm a filthy cheater, lol.

Posted by: Illydoor Jan 15 2013, 03:24 AM

Hahah I've seen that too!

Thalmor agents are everywhere Destri. Better cover that up lest we all get the attention of Justiciars.

Posted by: King Of Beasts Jan 15 2013, 03:25 AM

-Hides amulet of Talos in shirty and whistles- There's nothing going on here, just move along.....

Posted by: Illydoor Jan 15 2013, 03:42 AM

Never understood how Heimskr used to get away with it.

Do the elves take your homes? Your businesses? Your children? YOUR VERY LIIIIIVVEEESSS

Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Jan 15 2013, 04:42 AM

-grabs popcorn-

Posted by: Captain Hammer Jan 15 2013, 04:47 AM

The other problem: both sides have allied with some pretty screwed up candidates for Jarl.

I hate both Laila Law-Giver and Maven Black-Briar. The same can be said for Igmund of Markarth and Thongvor Silver-Blood.

And given Ulfric's torture at the hands of the Thalmor during the Great War, is it any wonder he has become so determined to have Skyrim secede?

I would like it if I could rearrange the entire set of Jarls. Korir is an alright guy, if he was in any city other than Winterhold and wasn't dealing with his own prejudices from the collapse. Vignar Gray-Mane is a retired Companion and would be good any place he doesn't have a chance to deal with his former best friend and now worst enemy.

We can send Korir to Riften, let him actually handle the excessive corruption and make the city at least moderately viable as a place to live and do business. Send Vignar Grey-Mane to Markarth, let the old soldier and capable administrator find a more sustainable and legitimate method of ending the Forsworn Rebellion. With that, two cities with incapable leaders are given jarls that are reasonably competent and significantly more ethical than the local alternative.

I'd let Dengeir of Stuhn resume his position as Jarl of Falkreath, and replace Skald with Brina Merilis in Dawnstar.

Brunwulf Free-Winter is definitely a better candidate for Jarl of Windhelm than Ulfric, but Idgrod Raven-Crone would remain Jarl of Morthal, with Kraldar becoming Jarl of Winterhold. Balgruuf, of course, remains Jarl of Whiterun, and for his services to Skyrim and support of the Dragonborn, gains the Dovahkiin's backing for High King of Skyrim. Elisif has to stay in power in Solitude, but given the amount of influence some of her court has, making Sorli the Builder her Steward would be an effective tempering of Elisif's impulsiveness and a balancing factor for Stormcloak and Imperial supporter alike.

As for Balgruuf, well, by this time the Dovahkiin should be able to privately remind six of the Jarls (Brina in Dawnstar, Dengeir in Falkreath, Vignar moving to Markarth, Korir moving to Riften, Brunwulf in Windhelm, and Kraldar in Winterhold) that they are Jarl because the Dovahkiin made them Jarl. What a Dragonborn makes, a Dragonborn can Un-Make. Idgrod seems to see something worth considering in the Dovahkiin, her judgement and relationship to the Dovahkiin should be enough to convince her. Elisif can then be marginalized into seeing the writing on the wall.

Provided the Dovahkiin doesn't just hand over the Jagged Crown, but does something smart, say, stashing it at High Hrothgar until the Moot is called. Then simply walking out with it and placing it on Balgruuf's head in front of the other Jarls, with a "Come At Me!" gesture if anybody is dumb enough to object. Balgruuf is enough of a loyalist to reputably claim loyalty to the Empire, so if Tullius complains, there would be far less guilt involved in simply killing the general.

Which leaves us with Ulfric. For him, a Trial of Thu'um before the Greybeards, for using their teachings in a manner inconsistent with their philosophy. He doesn't deserve death, per se, but should be exiled. For, say, five to ten years.

In Atmora.

With all the other die-hard Stormcloaks,

And the Talos-worshippers that need to be hidden from the Thalmor.

Maybe sort through them, separating the ones willing to learn discretion and loyalty for service to a suitably http://chorrol.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=4941&view=findpost&p=136586. Those that insist on a more open opposition to the Thalmor could be sent to join their brethren on a boat trip.

North. To Atmora.

Where I should be able to hide about 50,000 of them.

Maybe let them learn the Thu'um for the purpose of war.

Say, from 30 or so Dovah that have been dominated but not killed by a Dovahkiin that has the greatest Voice on Mundus right now.

Let them practice Ice Form. On floating wooden structures. http://www.theantarcticbookofcookingandcleaning.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/hab4.jpg http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/3/2103/habakkuk565.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Habakkuk. Or ten.

I just might be able to get what I want.

A curb-stomping Dragonborn's Legion and Navy with attached Air Cavalry to give me heavy campaigning with rapid deployment abilities and deep-striking capabilities to project power in a method not seen since Tiber Septim trudged the Numidium across the sea floor to sack Alinor.

It will be written on the Elder Scrolls in fire and blood. It will be biblical.

Posted by: King Of Beasts Jan 15 2013, 04:53 AM

Laila is fine but I hate maven.





He reminds me of the prophet from Knights of the nine

I'm quite surprised he hasn't been dragged away though. Occasionally I sit down and listen to him rant.

Posted by: Captain Hammer Jan 15 2013, 05:05 AM

Laila is an incompetent moron who cannot properly run her city. For that, she would merely earn my dislike.

But instead, she calls herself "Law-Giver," and her city, Riften, is the greatest den of vice and vagrancy in all of Skyrim. The guards tried to charge me money just to get in. The sheer amount of corruption makes her very moniker a complete backfire that I lose all respect for her.

And the one redeeming quality she could express? Being a part of the system and simply using the title ironically or as part of a propaganda routine? Nope! She honestly believes the cacat that she's peddling. But now matter how much you polish a turd, it's still a turd.

Bring on Korir.

Posted by: King Coin Jan 15 2013, 05:07 AM

If you hang around Riften for a while it becomes clear that Maven's running the show anyways.

Posted by: King Of Beasts Jan 15 2013, 05:08 AM

She's definitely a horrible jarl, but she's not as snobby as maven at least...

Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Jan 15 2013, 08:46 AM

I feel as if Laila just NEVER goes outside. If she ever did, she'd see everyone getting held up by (crappy at their jobs) thieves. Then a candle might appear above her head and she'd go "Oh, maybe I AM clueless. Time to turn this around!"

Posted by: McBadgere Jan 15 2013, 02:07 PM

I voted Independent...

Simply because I think all the options presented for in-game ruling need to be kicked in the head...

Posted by: Colonel Mustard Jan 15 2013, 03:19 PM

Surely by taking no side all your doing is choosing the violent status quo of a brutal civil war that will drain Skyrim and its people of its resources and, unless the situation is resolved soon, result in the usual famines that follow a civil war and probably end with the Thalmor winning? So, by voting for no side, aren't you just voting for the Thalmor?

Posted by: PhoenixGamer Jan 15 2013, 04:52 PM

I hate the Thalmor but love the High Elfs as a race. I respect the Stormcloaks but serve and honour the Empire.

Posted by: Illydoor Jan 15 2013, 05:05 PM

Oooo it's like the voice of Galmar himself

McBadgere? What do you have to say for yourself, elf-lover!

@Phoenix Indeed, they are a handsome race ain't they. That loading screen shot of the high elf (albeit in Thalmor robes) looks so cool. So arrogant though, that biatch Taarie in Radiant Raiment, my god.

Posted by: Grits Jan 15 2013, 05:11 PM

My characters have different ideas about the war. Only two have picked sides.

Jensa the Nord is not one of Skyrim’s great thinkers. She went to Windhelm to curse at Jarl Ulfric over the Roggvir situation and ended up joining his cause. She didn’t really want to kill the Legion’s Nords, she just wanted a crack at the Thalmor. After the war she realized that the Empire might have been a better choice.

Rowan Varrus the Imperial thinks that only a united Empire will be able to defeat the Thalmor. She joined the Legion.

I’m sure I would end up supporting the Empire in the long game against the Thalmor. As they say, sometimes you have to sleep with the devil.

Posted by: Colonel Mustard Jan 15 2013, 05:14 PM

I'm opting less for 'voice of Galmar' and more 'voice of thinking your choice through to the end'. Hell, even siding with the Empire is a better choice for Skyrim as a whole, as at least it will bring about some degree of stability to the region; taking no side means that you essentially choose to keep the civil war going in the same stalemate it's trapped in, which is exactly what the Thalmor want as that neuters two potential threats to them.

Posted by: Saquira Jan 15 2013, 07:31 PM

I have to vote independent, but still against the Thalmor, because I both like and dislike all sides, and that's what Ekali is going to be as far as it's possible. I'd have voted for the Stormcloaks a year ago, but a lot have changed since then.

I've got several characters who're involved with the whole war against the Thalmor and between the Empire and Stormcloaks, and the only ones who've actually taken a side are actually helping or used to help the Thalmor. Though that's just because the Thalmor are paying them a lot. Those two are Caoilinn and Dar'Ilthi. Caoilinn might show up in my fanfics eventually, Dar'Ilthi will play a rather big role.

On to my reasoning, the people who lead the Imperial's and Stormcloak's are both a bunch of idiots for the most part. Perhaps not the Imperials, as they're simply trying to put down the uprising. But they're still Thalmor pawns, and as such do not have my respect. Ulfric's a racist and generally very impolite, which I see very well since I rarely play humans. Helping either side would just mean that I help the Thalmor, as I by doing so kill a lot of people and decrease the amount of soldiers that could be used to fight the Thalmor. Not doing anything would also help the Thalmor, because that'd just mean that the civil war goes on and on and they stay occupied with each other while the elves get to do what they want. So I'm trying to figure out a way to end the civil war and unite everyone against the Thalmor, without picking either side.

In my version of the Elder Scrolls universe the ideal for me would be to first kill of Dar'Ilthi, though I'm not going to because she's way too good for the plot, and then somehow manage to unite the Stormcloaks and the Empire. Neither of them are strong enough to take on the Thalmor on their own, especially not after a civil war, and I doubt many would object to my saying that the Thalmor are the real threat. Even the Thalmor has to agree with that, because they're really smart, and not afraid to play dirty. That's also why I like the Thalmor, because they're so very good at manipulating their subjects. And now I got a really good idea for how Ekali can stay independent and still affect the outcome of the war...
Well, I don't think only the Empire and the Stormcloaks would cut it however, so even better would be to send coded messages(or something else that's secure) to other provinces and organize a simultaneous uprising in all of Tamriel. I doubt anyone likes to be bossed over by the Thalmor, so you'd just have to be good enough at convincing them that it could work or give them someone who they'd be willing to follow. But now I'm getting off track.

My point is that I'm against the Thalmor, but I'm not going to help the Empire or the Stormcloaks if all they do is fight internally. Ekali hates the civil war, and wants it to end, but she has no idea of which side she should help win. Dar'Ilthi is scary, and I don't really know what she's thinking helping the Thalmor, but I'm pretty certain that she's a sadist and a psychopath. Sorcalin prefers just to stay out of it and run his own business, though he doesn't like the Thalmor since he at least used to be one of the Psijic. Shakh is undecided. Felisa wants to live her own life in peace, and has changed her name so that people won't be able to track her down. And Caoilinn, she helped the Thalmor take Valenwood and doesn't really care who runs the different provinces as long as she gets paid.

Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Jan 15 2013, 07:41 PM

How about we get an Altmer with the mind of a human to infiltrate the Thalmor and bring them down fro the inside?

Posted by: Colonel Mustard Jan 15 2013, 07:42 PM

Because that would, anatomically and logistically, be very difficult?

Posted by: King Coin Jan 15 2013, 08:12 PM

I like your thinking. I still voted Imperial because I do believe that there will be another war with the Thalmor. They are rebuilding and rearming and need to get the other provinces behind them. I'm sure the Thalmor know this as well, hence the Stormcloak rebellion.

Posted by: Illydoor Jan 15 2013, 08:45 PM

Good point Elizabeth. There must be at least some High Elves who do not agree with the Thalmor initiative.

Like to have been already been flushed out by now though.

Posted by: McBadgere Jan 15 2013, 10:29 PM

Ah, the joys of knocking one off at dinner time...A quick reply, damn you!!...Tch...

Aaaamywho...

As portrayed in Skyrim, the Empire is weak and Tithead Meade is a pathetic excuse for even a puppet Emperor; Ulfric Fatar$e is rude, dim and just no use as a ruler; Madmax and the Forsworn are just savages and don't deserve anything bar the smacking they get...The Thalmor are a bunch of arrogant tw@ts that should have been sent to the bottom of the sea the instant they got in range of the Cyrodiilic Navy...

What I should have said, is that rather than standing idly by and watching them all fight amongst themselves, I would, in fact, as the Dragonborn, kick the living sh*te out of all of them and then set up a ruling council, with many decent advisors and Jarls to do what is right...

Which is pretty much exactly what I'm heading for in my fanfic, just with the added bonus of the still existing Templars *Cough*...Knights of The Nine and a decent and strong Empire THAT LEATHERED THE SHITE OUT OF THE DAMNED THALMOR IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!! *pantpantpant*...

That do you?... ...

Posted by: King Of Beasts Jan 16 2013, 12:39 AM

I couldn't agree with you more.

I have nothing against elves, I just despise the Thalmor. I'm not the biggest fan of Ulfric, Tulius, or Titus either. Even though I'm a stormcloak I find Ulfric a racist [censored]. Titus Mede is a coward(sorry Illydoor, but I think he's a coward ) And Tulius is just plain retarded (no offense to anyone).

Posted by: SubRosa Jan 16 2013, 01:08 AM

Don't hold back McB, tell us how you really feel!

Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Jan 16 2013, 01:34 AM

-laughs hysterically into pillow-

Posted by: Destri Melarg Jan 16 2013, 03:21 AM

From the desk of Anduial, Arch-Mage of the College of Winterhold, and Thalmor Emissary to Skyrim


Arrogant tw@ts?! Us? Let us take a moment to review history, shall we? While the Argonians and Khajiit were bounding around on all fours baying at the moons we were exploring and mapping the continents of Tamriel. Torval the Pilot acquired the Eight Islands that today serve as the site of your White Gold Tower by teaching the beastfolk natives to read! I don’t remember men buying it back from us. You pitch your proverbial tent in my home and call me arrogant because I insist that it’s mine?! We built the great towers throughout this land. We provided a language, a history, and a culture which you have since usurped, and you have the nerve to speak of our arrogance!

For centuries Elves lived in harmony with humans. The Social History of Cyrodiil remembers that ‘Malcontents, dissidents, rebels, landless younger sons, all made the difficult crossing from Atmora to the ‘New World’ of Tamriel.’ These humans came and lived amongst us in harmony ... they did not come looking to usurp a land not their own. We accommodated every human who wanted to flee his own homeland for greater opportunity in our land. We asked only that they respected our laws and sovereignty, which we had every right to do!

Only in Skyrim did this accommodation break down. Ysgramor and his ilk fled civil war in their native Atmora only to make war here in Tamriel. They arrived, looked around, and arrogantly stated that, not only was Skyrim now theirs, but High Rock and Morrowind were now their personal property as well! It mattered not to them that Elves and men had existed there in harmony for centuries. Is that not the very height of arrogance? Do not speak to me of ‘Skyrim belongs to the Nords!‘ It never did! Were it left to me I would send every ‘proud son of Skyrim’ back to their true mother in Atmora ... and make them learn to live off of a teat too cold to suckle!

Posted by: King Of Beasts Jan 16 2013, 03:41 AM

Can't we try to so from the PoV of both sides

The Altmer are a bit arrogant.....

And the other races are quite single-minded....

But come on. Walk in the shoes of your enemies for once.

Posted by: McBadgere Jan 16 2013, 04:34 AM

(KOB, don't sweat it, I don't believe him to be entirely serious... ...And, neither was I for that matter... ...It is, when all is said and done...Just a bloody game... ...)

Yes, well, I believe that what you're talking about through most of that are the Altmer...Not the Thalmor...I believed that the Thalmor and the Aldmeri Dominion were not representative of all Altmer? as in, surely all the Altmer that were born and lived away from the Summerset Isles or Valenwood were quite happy with where they were with the countries as they found them before the black boots decided to try plant themselves on innocent and the unable to fight back necks of the general populace of many countries?...

My problem is with the Thalmor, not the Altmer in general...


(While I'm sure there's going to be a lenthy riposte about how the Thalmor are the original Altmer, I have no idea, as it's only a game I play and I tend to have just the crib notes version of the history to be able to refer to ...It is, only a game... )...

Posted by: Destri Melarg Jan 16 2013, 09:29 AM

@McB - The CharlieBrownTeacherVoice almost knocked me out of my chair!

@KoB - I don’t know McB all that well (yet), but I have seen enough of his posts to know that most of what he says comes from a good place (the ellipses are a dead giveaway). I guarantee you that nothing said in a public forum is enough to cause me to hold a permanent grudge (but that dreaded CharlieBrownTeacherVoice sure does come close ). My own posts may have come across as harsh, but that is because I was channeling a character who happens to be a Thalmor representative. Which is why everything said from him comes:



From the Desk of Anduial, Arch Mage of the College of Winterhold, and Thalmor Emissary to Skyrim:


Isn’t this sadly typical. I try to engage you in thoughtful debate but my words fall like so many potatoes around your ears! However, I must concede your point. Perhaps my brethren have been somewhat unyielding in their efforts to reinvigorate the pride of those elves asleep to the knowledge of all they have lost. Perhaps our ‘black boots’ might have tread more lightly around the necks of those thus afflicted were our patience not stretched beyond all endurance by the interminable ages spent waiting to reclaim that which is ours by right.

I shall now spare you the lengthy riposte about a fact that you already seem to know ... and, since I can see by the direction of the voting that my kind is not welcome in this place, I will retire.

Posted by: Illydoor Jan 16 2013, 11:25 AM

What about the Night of Tears?

Ysgramor only returned with the 500 companions, and a mind for all out war, after the night of slaughter that only left him and his two sons!

Posted by: McBadgere Jan 16 2013, 02:12 PM

...

'Tis true... BWAHAHAA!! Told ya...

Ach, my dear Archmage, let us away to the Tavern then?...My shout...We can discuss all this difference of philosophy until the cows come home...

Posted by: King Of Beasts Jan 18 2013, 03:46 AM

This is probably going to start a full out war, but.....


No offense to any Thalmor fans out there but....

I honestly think the Thalmor need to be taught a lesson. They have no reason to act all high and mighty. Being snobby makes them more "unworthy"(if you must call it that)

Posted by: PhonAntiPhon Jan 20 2013, 10:17 AM

To add a slightly maverick opinion, we never thought any of them were worth the price of a cup of mead to be honest.
Mostly they were all just in Niamh's way.

As a Bosmer, she considered the Thalmor to be way too uptight and full of themselves; the imperials - well let's face it they were going to have her executed, and the Stormcloaks were just a bunch of ignorant farmers in tin hats.
She had marginally more empathy with the latter, largely because they didn't try to kill her on sight, most of the time.

I guess she felt closest in nature at least to the Forsworn, but the thing was they were far too much fun as sport, so the relationship was doomed from the start...

Posted by: mirocu Feb 9 2013, 10:22 AM

I choose Stormcloaks without having played the game. I don´t think it´s racist to defend one´s own country, those are just modern ideas with no rhyme or reason. I would call invaders of my own country whatever name I could think of, and believe me, I do...

Posted by: Colonel Mustard Feb 9 2013, 10:49 AM

Most people call them racist for hating all elves and shoving the Dunmer population of their capital into a ghetto. Considering how wonderfully hateable the Thalmor are, I don't think anybody is calling them racist for trying to fight them.

Posted by: mirocu Feb 9 2013, 10:54 AM

Thank you for clarifying I know I shouldn´t speak up when I haven´t even played the game, I just get ticked off whenever I see the word 'racist'. It gets used too often these days I think. I hate Ford Ka, does that make me a racist?

But lets not get into that discussion too far. Suffice it to say I often root for whatever population is native to whatever land is being discussed.

Posted by: flowerboom Feb 9 2013, 11:55 AM

Fair comment .

skyrim is like this though , it does not bother me though because it dosent affect you as such .

it was nice to go to raven rock and see na near all-dark elf population , really kick in the teeth for the nords eh ?

Gotto love the dark eleves , arnt evil like most of them.

Posted by: flowerboom Feb 9 2013, 11:56 AM

Interestingly only by a slim majority are the imperials leading..

i honestly cannot belive that beth would scrap the empire , the empire has been at the root of every game.

Posted by: flowerboom Feb 9 2013, 12:12 PM

Mirocu , i to thought the stormcloaks were the right way , i admit i still have got sympathy for ulfric

but . ultimatly if the humans are going to survive they need a united front , skyrim is like the USA was to Britain during the world wars . somebody once said britain was the hero , france the martyr , america the victor .

cyrodill (france) is strong but it is , for one thing , on the border of the thalmor ,it has a large army and a strong economy , but ultimatly not as strong as the thalmore , its also for nationlistic .

When war comes cyrodill is the first place to bear the brunt , just like france was ,Britain was able to keep up its power because a. it had france as a meatshield and b . it has the channel to stop a direct land invasion ( im british dont accuse me of being anti-british )

cyrodill (fr) will always be the firts to fall in the war m this is where most of the battles will be fought , only if the cyrodill is tottally under occupation ( this almsot happended during the great war , only bruma held out because it had skyrim protecting it) then the thalmore could of launched an attck on the rest of the empire.

This was basically what happended with france , however the CORE differance was britain was detrmined and it had a very powerful defense , germany could not invade because a . it lost the air war and b. it couldnt defeat the royal navy , as such a land invasion was impossible.

with skyrim it differant , only with skyrim ( the united states) backing did cyrodill mamnage a turn-aorund in the war , if skyrim had not helped cyrodill would of lost the war .

If war came now and skyrim was indepedant , then the empire would lose , if ulfric united with hammerfell ( russia) and highrock ( Britain) then they might still be able to win the war , but the fate of humanity and creation itself would hang in the balance.

if britain , usa , fr , and of cource lets not forget russia , had not all united then they would of lost the war , like with hammerfell russia fought a bloody war of attrition that resulet in WW2 with 20 million soviets dead . france fought hard and slowly sapped the strength of germany , britain crushed germany trade , and it air/navy crippiled germany , it also lead a succesful land campain to help the french ( its worth mentioning the british empire candians here , who did exceptionally well )

the usa , fresh and still pumping out rersoureces when europe was exhasted , could basically just tank men into france , theres a question whether without america the war could of been won ( much more so in world war 2)

i see the four provence like the four powers , cyrodill is france with powerful army but it will always get overwhelmed , russia is hammerfel with determined warrirors whom can gradually beat the thalmor , high rock is britain with strong support armies and the crucial naval strength , skyrim is usa with powerful eco and lots of soldiers.

if you dont have one you lose , its that simple.

sorry i have gone on , but thats how i see it.

Posted by: mirocu Feb 9 2013, 12:12 PM

Indeed, the empire has been a major thing throughout. Although I don´t really like big empires I have a hard time picturing TES without it.

Posted by: flowerboom Feb 9 2013, 12:16 PM

you could say the usa is an empire

Posted by: mirocu Feb 9 2013, 12:29 PM

Yes, and I never said I liked it The politics behind it that is, I´m fine with the country

Posted by: flowerboom Feb 9 2013, 12:34 PM

Forgive me , your local time is just under an hour ahead of mine meaning you are not british ? From whence do you hail ?

Posted by: mirocu Feb 9 2013, 12:43 PM

I´m within that time zone but I´m not British. I hail from the Nordic provinces

Posted by: flowerboom Feb 9 2013, 12:46 PM

your from greenalnd or iceland ? unless we are counting the netharlands as nordic.

this is going to annoy me now.

ahh but this could be a trick! if your from greenland you could say you hail from denmark as well...

or you could live on the faroe islands....

hmm sneaky sneaky

Posted by: mirocu Feb 9 2013, 12:48 PM

We certainly do not. Sweden here

Posted by: flowerboom Feb 9 2013, 12:52 PM

swden is not Gmt , i just looked it up , i was quite wrong XD

sweden eh ? nice

Posted by: Grits Feb 9 2013, 01:24 PM

Mirocu, I’m afraid it’s not quite like an invasion. Many Nords support their Empire, and many Stormcloaks are ex-Legion according to comments within the game.

My characters choose for themselves, if they have an interest. Jensa (a Nord) fought for the Stormcloaks and came to regret it. Mikke of Green River (another Nord) will likely join the Legion if she ever finishes up with her dragon responsibilities. Rowan Varrus (an Imperial) recently joined the Legion. All of my others deeply resent the Thalmor at the least and view the Empire as Skyrim’s best bet despite present difficulties.

And my Breton characters who hail from the Reach would never trust Ulfric, the butcher of Markarth.

Posted by: mirocu Feb 9 2013, 01:31 PM

Well, like I said I know I shouldn´t speak up when I haven´t even played the game. I simply don´t have enough information. Sorry ´bout that.

Posted by: Grits Feb 9 2013, 01:34 PM

Oh, I didn’t mean it like a scold. Just friendly information.

Posted by: mirocu Feb 9 2013, 01:42 PM

No worries, friend. I´m greatful for your information

Posted by: flowerboom Feb 9 2013, 04:09 PM

its fair to say , like all conflicts , the civil war is a complex one and one which many people have differant motives for playing a part in .

officially the war happended because of a refusal to stop worshipping talos , and a disgust at the empire . gradually it evolved into a move for total independance rather than ridding skyrim of the thalmore . some have joined for nationlistic purposes , others for riches and glory , the war has divided everybody into : camp empire and camp stormcloak

and that wasnt the actual motive of the war , its just how it developed

Also most people think ( users i mean) that ulfric stormcloak , the man rallying / behind the whole resistance movement , is a manipulative tyrant whom only declared war for his own motive rather than for skyrim.

but the empire played dirty with ulfric , its known as the "markarth incident"

basically during the great war the forsworn ( a freedom-fighting fanatical group dedicating to making the reach an independant nation because they claim it was stolen from them) took over markarth , in desperation the empire turned to ulfric to remove them.

For 2 years they ruled the reach and the time was actually quite prosperous , ulfric dutifully obeyed the empire and won the war against them , the imperial gained control again.

but his price was high , he demanded that he and his people should be allowed to worship talos , but if they allowed this the empire faced another great war months after it had ended.

The empire lied , they painted ulfric as a child-slaughtering , woman-raping , bloodthirsty , savage nord . they denounced him and humiliated him.

Just to save their own skin , they betrayed ulfric and humilated him , after what he had done for them.

This is why i still have some sympathy for ulfric , what the empire did was wrong , and i struggle to forgive them for it.

Posted by: Destri Melarg Feb 9 2013, 05:23 PM

Actually it was Igmund, son of the slain Jarl of Markarth, who promised the free worship of Talos to any Nord who helped him in re-taking the Reach. Ulfric simply took up the cause. When the dust had settled and Jarl Igmund was safely perched on the throne of Markarth he discovered that his mouth had written a check that his backside couldn’t cash. The Empire demanded that he rescind the promise of Talos worship because, as flowerbloom said, a second Great War would be the result if an Imperial province was in violation of the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:White-Gold_Concordat

Ulfric’s part in all of this becomes even more interesting when you realize that he is actually a sleeper agent of the Thalmor. His every action is meant to further destabilize an already weakened Empire. Say what you want about the Thalmor, but their use of Ulfric in this regard has been brilliant. And, again like flowerbloom said, it makes Ulfric an even more sympathetic figure because all evidence suggests that he doesn’t even know the extent to which he is being used.

Posted by: SubRosa Feb 9 2013, 05:35 PM

My understanding (and maybe I read things wrong) was not that Ulfric demanded Talos worship, but rather than it was offered up front by the new Jarl when he was recruiting people to take back the Reach. That was the bait that was dangled in front of Ulfric and the other Nord's eyes.

Posted by: Elisabeth Hollow Feb 9 2013, 08:04 PM

It was. Then the Aldmeri Dominion caught wind of it and went "Nope!"




Mind=blown

Posted by: flowerboom Feb 9 2013, 08:48 PM

Yes , ulfric is a war hero perhaps...but a bit thick ? I think so...

after much thought i have to conclude that i do think that ulfric is fighting for a genuine motive , but like the best of us if that cause winds up with him as high king ( and , if all went to plan , total leader of skyrim) with immense power and riches...well .... thats just to sweeten the honey

you know what i mean ? i think deep down there is this nord that wants to worship talos and wants the old empire back , but at the same time he is battling with his own greed .

From what i understand ulfric is not a very good leader, however elisif is also bad

i dont think either of them should mantle the posistion of high king/queen , because with the mede line over it does mean that this posisiotn is , regardless of the war , basically gives them total control of skyrim , her immense resources , and her powerful armies.

Ultimatly i think ulfric is a good war time leader whilst elisif is a good peace time leader . I think this was done deliberatly by the devs .

On the pros , ulfric is brave , has a level head for stratagey , he is realistic in what can be done , he has raw battle experiance and skill , lets not forget he can use the voice . He is the born nord war hero risen from tiber septims grave that the nords have been wanting since the begining of the 3rd era .

But : wrong time , wrong place.

on the pros for elisif , she is obviosley a good and succeful business woman , i dont belive the bilge that elisif cannot control her court . Elisif listens to her advisors and her people , and that is a powerful virtue . She does not have any batlle experiance but can deploy level-headiness and logic to make an acceptable decision on matters . Also she is much more diplomatic than ulfric , i think ( like the rest of the empire) she understands the unspoken understanding : we will worship talos in our hearts , but we cannot in the open till this conflict is over and we have won.

The drawbacks of ulfric ? He is a savage racist , either that or he is a very stupid , incompetant man , OR he could be both . His city is in a poor state , his economy is weak, he lacks economic policy and proper level-headness , he makes independant decisions without advice and his narrow -minded beliveing only he can be right . His attempts and trying to form an anti-empire anti-thalmroe resistance movement have failed , hammerfel will not make an alliance with him.

He lacks diploamcy , he is subtly manipulated by the thalmor , some say he is not playing into their hands , but just as many think he is . He refuses to comromise.

In short : he is good at his warfare , but will fail as a long-term leader because the people will lose support in him and ( some already do) grow to despise ihm . He will fail to organise skyrims economy , he wont be able to re-adjust skyrim into a peace time status likly causing economic chaos.

Elisif main weakness is she is over-cautious , being over-cautious is a strength but ultimatly this has resuleted in her being easily-manipulated and weak-willed . she lacks proper loyalty to the empire and real courage ( notice : end of civil war with stormcloak victory) . she is a bit of a puppet - ruler , being un-opinionated is a strength but sometimes you have to make a decisison and somtimes she cant cope under pressure

In short : with a war coming up, and with the empire of the medes in chaos , elisif will sturggle to maintain order , if war comes she will struggle to launch a proper defensive , leaving elisif to be high queen would be highly dangerous in these dark times

ultimatly I want HUMANITY TO SURVIVE , in order to survive right now , the only way i can see it happening is , i hate it but , the only way i can see it happening is if ulfric is in charge , we need a strong wartime leader when the second great war explodes . elisif will not be able to survive and skyrim will suffer terribly for it.

But who knows?

Posted by: SubRosa Feb 9 2013, 08:50 PM

Ulfric is not a sleeper agent for the Thalmor. He was a prisoner of war who was tortured by them. The Thalmor has a dossier on him describing him as an asset because they tortured him for information. The same is true of John McCain, and every other American taken prisoner by the North Vietnamese and tortured. There are similar dossiers on them filed away in some Hanoi office. If Ulfric was a Thalmor agent, his dossier would not say "do not approach him because he will kill you". Nor would it say a Stormcloak victory is to be avoided at all costs.

Ulfric is a savage racist? You must really hate George Washington then. Unlike Ulfric, he owned hundred of people of another race. He also signed a document barring that other race from serving in his army, unlike the Stormcloaks, who are ticked at the Dark Elves precisely because they won't fight for their country.

Posted by: flowerboom Feb 9 2013, 08:54 PM

Ahh rosa ...well this is one of the core debates

Edit : no i think you think we are saying he is a spy for them , no i agree he is not working for them

some think he is being cleverly manipulated by them , or else the thalmor think he is good because he is draining on the empires resources

Posted by: SubRosa Feb 9 2013, 08:56 PM

There is nothing debatable about how it says do not approach Ulfric, or that that a Stormcloak victory is to be avoided. If Ulfric was their man, his dossier would not say that. Plain and simple.

I can just as easily say that George Washington was a French sleeper agent, as he was once captured by them. Same with every other American ever captured in any war.

If you really want a sleeper agent, then you need to look no farther than Titus Mede. He is the one who surrendered to the Thalmor after their army was destroyed. He is the one who has knowingly and willingly collaborated with them ever since. The Thalmor would be sunk without him. So long as the Empire is around, and Mede is in power, the Thalmor have their will enforced throughout its territories.

Posted by: flowerboom Feb 9 2013, 09:18 PM

please dont get angry by me , im not sure what you are counting as a "sleeper agent"

What people mean is ulfric is being manipulated INDIRECTLY by the thalmor , it DOES NOT constitute him working / being in contact / being aware of being manipulated by them ....

that is what i mean . its that simple .

Posted by: Kiln Feb 9 2013, 09:27 PM

A sleeper agent is somebody planted by a specific group into another group that subverts the enemy intentionally. For instance if I'm working for America deep inside of Germany during WW2 by subverting supplies or waiting to assassinate somebody, then I'd be a sleeper agent. You could also be collecting information and sending it back home.

Ulfric is just a useful idiot. He doesn't get that what he's doing is simply helping the Thalmor against the empire. He's definitely not a sleeper agent for the Thalmor in any sense of the phrase.

Posted by: flowerboom Feb 9 2013, 09:30 PM

oww thats intersting! i have never came across the full term before

Posted by: Destri Melarg Feb 9 2013, 09:57 PM

Sorry for the confusion, ‘Rosa... Kiln. According to the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak, Ulfric proved his worth as an ‘asset’ (the Thalmor’s word, not mine) as a direct result of the ‘so-called Markarth Incident.’ It further says that Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the ‘asset’ should be considered ‘dormant’. That is why I considered him a sleeper agent. From now on I'll just say 'dormant asset.'

I know that it says that a Stormcloak victory is to be avoided. It also says (in that same sentence), that ‘indirect aid’ to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed. Not suspended. I don’t think that Ulfric considers himself a pawn of the Thalmor agenda, which is what makes him a sympathetic figure... up to a point.

Now you could make the argument that the Thalmor have also taken credit for ending the Oblivion Crisis and restoring the moons into the night sky. I can’t deny that. Maybe all of this is just another trick on their part. Until we find out otherwise I think the dossier is evidence enough to consider Ulfric a dormant Thalmor asset.

I agree with you in that I don't see Ulfric as a savage racist. Does he hate the dark elves? Maybe. Is he unsympathetic towards the dark elves? Absolutely. Over the course of thousands of years of Tamrielic history these two races have clashed over and over again for territory in Morrowind. I would expect a certain hostility to still exist.


It is my understanding (and I may be wrong) that a sleeper agent doesn't do anything at all when planted into that other group. He/she remains 'dormant', living amongst the enemy, until he/she is activated.

Calling Ulfric a sleeper agent wasn't meant to spark so much debate. The Thalmor consider Ulfric a 'dormant asset', I just threw in the term sleeper agent from there. I don't believe that Ulfric is twirling his godawful mustache wondering how best to serve his Thalmor overlords or anything. Like you say, he just happens to be useful to the Thalmor agenda.

Posted by: Kiln Feb 9 2013, 10:01 PM

I did find it interesting that the poll was so evenly divided between the empire and the stormcloaks.

I figured there'd be a much larger number of people who supported the empire. Why? Because we've been playing under the empire's rule since the first ES game. They've always been the ones in charge and kind of the glue holding Tamriel together. The empire has forts everywhere protecting citizens and enforcing basic laws.

The Stormcloaks are fighting for a free Skyrim at the cost of damaging the empire as a whole when it is already on shaky ground. It would be like some of the states seceeding during the revolution against the british. Then you take into account that the dunmer and argonians in Ulfric's own city are being oppressed by him and you can kind of get an idea of what kind of rule the province would have under him.

While the Stormcloaks are idealistic, they don't really have a plan. How would they survive without support from all of the other imperial provinces? Think North Korea here. A small nation that cannot provide for all of it's citizens surrounded by other nations that are hostile and won't trade with it.

Skyrim's war for independence may be won but in the end it is only going to hurt Skyrim and the people there.

Posted by: flowerboom Feb 9 2013, 10:07 PM

- what i said

Posted by: Destri Melarg Feb 10 2013, 11:00 PM

Perhaps some of that might have to do with the point that SubRosa made before. The Empire’s weakened state is almost entirely their own doing. Had they remained steadfast in defeating the Thalmor menace once and for all and stood with Hammerfell (instead of throwing them under the bus) there would have been no civil war in Skyrim because there never would have been a ban on Talos worship. A united Empire (albeit united only in the sense that the human races stand together) would have been enough to stand against the Aldmeri Dominion. Instead the Empire caved into the Thalmor’s demands and signed a treaty whose provisions were almost exactly the same as the ultimatum that they initially refused... precipitating the Great War.

I voted for the Thalmor because at least they know what they want. The Empire is far too vacillating, Hammefell can’t decide between stripes and solids, Skyrim has no plan beyond ‘Skyrim belongs to the Nords!’ Morrowind is gone... and has anyone even heard from High Rock lately?

Posted by: Uleni Athram Feb 11 2013, 12:05 PM

Chances are they're too mired in their own politics to even care about the Great War or even the Civil War.

Or they could be building their own powerbase and while the Dominion watches the Empire tears itself apart in the CW, they slowly but surely enroach on the turned back of the Thalmor, and then BOOM! Everyone hails the Bretons of High Rock as the saviour mankind as they vanquish the last of the Thalmor in Alinor in a suprise blitzkrieg. Maybe even the Direnni leads them in that scenario. Who knows?

Posted by: King Of Beasts Feb 13 2013, 04:47 AM

But the empire turned their back on Tamriel! You said it yourself. They are pretty much the main reason that Tamriel is a prosperous continent! But why go down with the empire? If they go down, who says that the rest of Tamriel has to go down with them?! True, the stormcloaks definitely don't seem to have a plan, but at least they're trying to stop the Thalmor from dominating Tamriel! Skyrim is just trying to be independent so they don't have to live under the iron fist of the Thalmor.

Posted by: Destri Melarg Feb 13 2013, 08:01 AM

Actually all I see the Stormcloaks doing is trying to install Ulfric onto the throne. If they cared at all about trying to stop the Thalmor they would have a lot more to say when Justiciars march Talos worshippers past their own camp!

Ulfric is a demagogue who has warmed to the notion that he should be High King of Skyrim (thanks Galmar! ). This whole thing about defeating Torygg in an honorable duel is just hogwash. He murdered the man... plain and simple. How do I know? Because Torygg had a whole hero-worship thing going with Ulfric, which Ulfric was well aware of. Not only would Torygg have listened to Ulfric’s points about a united Skyrim out from under the Imperial yoke, he more than likely would have endorsed them. Remember, Ulfric didn’t just barge in on the High King, Torygg invited him to Solitude for the discussion. With the High King on his side Ulfric could have named his own title. Thane of Skyrim, perhaps. So let’s see... be the second most powerful man in a Skyrim devoted to the cause of freedom, or become the leader of a rebellion that fractures Skyrim into two factions and sparks civil war. Unless you are a complete idiot (which I half believe Ulfric is, btw), one choice is clearly preferable to the other... unless your goal is to be High King yourself.

Posted by: flowerboom Feb 13 2013, 03:13 PM

Ok but your comment about the random event is game-logistics not lore , also if stormcloaks see thalmor i think they do try to kill them...always lose

Your point is intersting , but its still hotly debated about the duel , i dont think we can give a definitive yes/no on that.

But yes ulfric is a bit thick , nord-thick , thats unfortunate .

Posted by: Destri Melarg Feb 13 2013, 06:19 PM

A fair point. That was my sarcasm rearing its ugly head.


I think it's only debated by those who still see Ulfric as the hero who 'liberated' Markarth. There is nothing 'honorable' about Ulfric challenging Torygg and then using the thu'um (which Torygg didn't possess, therefore couldn't match) to 'shout him to pieces.' That would be akin to challenging someone to a fist fight then, while they come forward with their guard up, pulling out a bazooka and blasting them to smithereens!

Posted by: flowerboom Feb 13 2013, 07:08 PM

Nicely put!

I'd be most concerned i didnt see the bazooka

Posted by: Kiln Feb 13 2013, 10:08 PM

Yes and what I'm saying is that Skyrim's independence would be bad for both the Empire and Skyrim. Isolationism just doesn't work as a long term goal when your country can't provide for it's own people. If Skyrim isn't on peaceful grounds with the Empire, they're not going to be trading with all of the other Imperial aligned provinces.

There is no long term plan here and in the end an even weaker Imperial force just increases the chances that the Thalmor would be able to conquer Skyrim. Instead of uniting to fight the Thalmor, Ulfric selfishly throws the region into a civil war without any thought to what happens next and IMO simply uses Talos worship as justification to get nords behind him. What he actually accomplishes is weakening both the Imperial presence in the area and the Stormcloak presence.

Basically Ulfric wants what Dagoth Ur wanted to do in Morrowind, he wants to kick out all the foreigners and isolate the region at any cost. Skyrim for the nords, Morrowind for the Dunmer.

Posted by: Destri Melarg Feb 14 2013, 12:37 AM

Well said!

Posted by: King Of Beasts Feb 14 2013, 12:46 AM

IM NOT AN ULFRIC STORMCLOAK FAN!

True, he has some good intentions, but obviously he's a racist b*****d! And what is even with the help of skyrim and the other provinces, what if the empire loses to the Thalmor again? If the empire goes down, so do all of the other provinces, including Skyrim, and the Thalmor gets control of ALL of Tamriel. Skyrim is more likely to be better off on its own.

Honestly, now that I think about it, one way or another, Skyrim won't be able to rebuild itself. The Thalmor could easily wipe out the Stormcloaks and take control of skyrim, and if skyrim stays with the empire, and the Thalmor creams them again, skyrim will still be taken over and unable to recover.