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Chorrol.com _ Skyrim _ I'm Lost!
Posted by: Lady Saga Feb 13 2013, 12:49 AM
I am finding Skyrim's dungeons to be easy to walk through most of the time. Most of Skyrim's dungeons simply go one direction: in and out, with very few side passages. If there's a second or third way to go, very often it'll immediately dead-end, and it becomes very obvious which direction is the one we're looking for.
....This is one thing I like about dungeons in Cyrodiil: yes they are sparser, and aren't packed with stuff (as Skyrim's lairs are) but oftentimes Cyrodiilic lairs will feature areas with multiple directions to go in. They challenge us to remember which way is the right one!
We might come to a room for instance that has 2, 3, 4, 5... I've seen up to 6 or 7 exits! Which way is the right way? ... I used to wind up going in circles in some of Cyrodiil's: especially caves and Ayleid ruins. Forts aren't as hard, but also could offer some twists and turns, and if the player (me) was not using the map, all a sudden I could be seriously lost for hours! 
This thread is going to be dedicated to those lairs in Skyrim that have the ability to get us seriously lost. Mycharonna the Ice Witch is in one such lair at the moment. It is called
http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Fallowstone_Cave
There is a quest related to this cave but I won't spoil. Anyways, this is a big cave, with one very large main cavern. And it's not so much that there's multiple directions to go (multiple exits, that is) that the cave is just so large, with all sorts of ledges to climb upon. There are also some side exits here and there. I think I've found three so far. I won't spoil, but they do lead to some interesting little things!
Anyways, if anybody has other such places that they've found, I want to see what others have discovered.
http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Shriekwind_Bastion
http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Fort_Neugrad
http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Alftand
http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Nchuand-Zel
Posted by: flowerboom Feb 13 2013, 03:15 PM
I am finding Skyrim's dungeons to be easy to walk through most of the time. Most of Skyrim's dungeons simply go one direction: in and out, with very few side passages. If there's a second or third way to go, very often it'll immediately dead-end, and it becomes very obvious which direction is the one we're looking for.
....This is one thing I like about dungeons in Cyrodiil: yes they are sparser, and aren't packed with stuff (as Skyrim's lairs are) but oftentimes Cyrodiilic lairs will feature areas with multiple directions to go in. They challenge us to remember which way is the right one!
We might come to a room for instance that has 2, 3, 4, 5... I've seen up to 6 or 7 exits! Which way is the right way? ... I used to wind up going in circles in some of Cyrodiil's: especially caves and Ayleid ruins. Forts aren't as hard, but also could offer some twists and turns, and if the player (me) was not using the map, all a sudden I could be seriously lost for hours!
This thread is going to be dedicated to those lairs in Skyrim that have the ability to get us seriously lost. Mycharonna the Ice Witch is in one such lair at the moment. It is called
Fallowstone Cave <-I will put a link here, tomorrow)
There is a quest related to this cave but I won't spoil. Anyways, this is a big cave, with one very large main cavern. And it's not so much that there's multiple directions to go (multiple exits, that is) that the cave is just so large, with all sorts of ledges to climb upon. There are also some side exits here and there. I think I've found three so far. I won't spoil, but they do lead to some interesting little things!
Anyways, if anybody has other such places that they've found, I want to see what others have found. But no quest-related spoilers, please!
Haha people act like "hand-crafted" dungeons are a new thing , in the oblivion dem videos todd actually says all of oblivions dungeons are hand crafted
I think 80% of skyrim dungeons are boring and linear . Oblivion had some interest ( like the ayelid statues)
Posted by: King Coin Feb 13 2013, 03:23 PM
Nchuand-Zel is a Dwemer dungeon located inside of Markarth's Understone Keep. It is a sizable dungeon that I didn't quite get lost in, but I did wonder "how the heck do I get over there?" You can see the path you need to take, but you aren't quite sure how to get there.
Posted by: ghastley Feb 13 2013, 03:44 PM
I've been replaying Daggerfall recently, and most of those dungeons are complex mazes that are so confusing my characters won't go in until they have a Recall spell to instantly take them back to the entrance. They're constructed out of blocks that you can get familiar with, but the blocks are connected at random, so familiarity breaks down at the joins.
They also have an unfortunate problem with the target cell sometimes being unreachable without levitation, or some other mechanism the player may not have available. In extreme cases the target can be in a cell with no doors!
I've also installed Arena, but haven't checked out the dungeons yet. I'm guessing that, based on the apparent simplification trend you're describing, that they will be totally impossible.
Posted by: Lady Saga Feb 13 2013, 04:20 PM
flower: Oblivion's dungeons use 'tile-sets' (I think that's the word) that are copy/pastes from one dungeon to the next. These tile-sets are put together by hand perhaps, but this does not change the fact that they are very easy to spot and this is where the "generic" complaint comes from. OB's dungeons also mostly feature random loot and enemies, rather than hand-placed loot and enemies.
Granted, none of this bothers me per se. I am not the typical TES customer who complains about the "cookie-cutter" aspect of Cyrodiilic dungeons: I enjoy dungeon-diving in both OB and Skyrim. But I like the fact that OB's dungeons actually are more challenging to find our way through.
King Coin: thanks! I will remember to check that one out when I pass by!
ghastley: that sounds interesting about DF's dungeons. How is Daggerfall with random/hand-placed stuff? Just curious.
Posted by: ghastley Feb 13 2013, 04:44 PM
Daggerfall had a Main Quest sequence that was non-linear, and some parts were optional. All the quests in that had hand-placed quest items (not generally loot, more things you needed for the next quest). You'd also find randomly-generated loot on enemies, and loot piles in those dungeons.
The same set of building blocks was used in the MQ dungeons, but they'd also have unique parts, generally the ones that contained the quest item. Proportions of generic to unique varied.
Locations of "boss loot" or unique artifacts were hand-placed in the sense that the building block sections of dungeon had those location pre-specified, and those were typically behind hidden doors etc. But a quest from a Daedric Lord to find a unique artifact might make use of a randomly-selected dungeon, and the artifact would be generated at the appropriate point in that. One or two of the MQ series worked this way and you could be sent to any one of a small selection of dungeons to find the next item, but most sent you to a specific location.
All of the dungeon layouts are fixed, but they were generated by a random process by Bethsoft, and then baked-in. If you go back to a dungeon a second time, it will be the same layout as before, although the monsters and loot will have re-spawned, with new random selection. You'd probably not notice, as the huge number of dungeons swamps your memory of their layouts.
Enemies in dungeons are generally level-scaled to match the player, but the game throws in a few random ones that aren't. Your level-1 character may run into a level-21 lich in the first place they visit! And to balance that, a level 50 character will still find rats.
Posted by: Grits Feb 13 2013, 05:00 PM
I’ve gotten lost in a few Dawnguard locations because they’re dark and sometimes it’s hard to see where to go next. Not completely lost like in Oblivion’s Ayleid ruins, though. Also in some of the DG locations there’s occasionally more than one path to the next section. So of course I want to explore every inch, but Mikke of Green River (my only character who has gone through the quests) wants to blaze her way straight to whatever she’s promised someone she would kill.
Saga, I had to go to the uesp to get Jensa out of Fallowstone Cave or she and Stenvar would still be in there. That was fun. 
Posted by: flowerboom Feb 13 2013, 05:14 PM
yeah well have you noticed you get a pattern in skyims dungeons as well ?
I dont find oblivions dungeons linear AT ALL , granted the loot is tedious but every ruin is differant and has interesting unique features.
From what i can see , and i have extensivly dungeon-dived there has been no improvement whatsoever on hand-crafted dungeons . Bar a few "demo" dungeons made to project a fake image of skyrim ( like bleak falls barrow)
Mind you 95% of skyrim is like this , eveything is scripted , less quests , less quest hours , anybody see bards collage ? What a JOKE , they made two quests for it . One of which was a boring dungeon-dive and the other one was half-compleed , typical of skyrim , the "new" way of tes thinking.
After playing the game once i have no inclination to play t again , the companions had what ? 5 quests , ow sure it had tons of " radiant" quests. If i want that type of quest i can go on a gameing site , not waste my money on an over-priced game 
Yup im a harsh critic of skyrim , the game was a joke compared to the previous two titles , just my opinion .....
Posted by: Lady Saga Feb 13 2013, 05:52 PM
All of the dungeon layouts are fixed, but they were generated by a random process by Bethsoft, and then baked-in. If you go back to a dungeon a second time, it will be the same layout as before, although the monsters and loot will have re-spawned, with new random selection. You'd probably not notice, as the huge number of dungeons swamps your memory of their layouts.
This is interesting! There is a game on PS2 called Champions of Norrath that randomly creates worlds and dungeons, too. CoN is a game I was rabidly playing (and replaying) back before I got OB because every time I started a new CoN game, its world was a little bit different.
Saga, I had to go to the uesp to get Jensa out of Fallowstone Cave or she and Stenvar would still be in there. That was fun.
Fallowstone Cave is actually a surprisingly simple dungeon once the gamer figures it out! It's another in-and-out, really. The difference is there's all sorts of little niches and areas to get stuck on as we try to navigate "in and out". But once I figured it out, I was like OH...duh..! Took me over an hour (Earth time) to get back outside of Fallowstone to Skyrim, though.
I dont find oblivions dungeons linear AT ALL , granted the loot is tedious but every ruin is differant and has interesting unique features.
You talkin' to me? I never said Oblivion's dungeons are linear...that's the point I was trying to make in the OP. They often are not linear.
Yup im a harsh critic of skyrim , the game was a joke compared to the previous two titles , just my opinion .....
I disagree, but I'm tired of disagreeing with people lately, and then having to defend my point of view.
Posted by: Destri Melarg Feb 13 2013, 06:07 PM
I did get lost in http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Alftand, but I think that has more to do with that particular dwemer ruin being a pain-in-the-you-know-what than in any level design inspiration. I seem to remember constantly tripping over bodies that I had killed only minutes before. It took me hours to find my way through that place... and I haven't been back since.
Posted by: flowerboom Feb 13 2013, 06:13 PM
in fairness skyrims ruins were very interesting , in particular the dwemer ones
Posted by: Lady Saga Feb 14 2013, 01:19 AM
I did get lost in http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Alftand,
Cool, thanks for sharing. As I explore Skyrim more and more I'm going to be using this thread to see if I experience the same things (feeling lost!) in the places people bring up.
in fairness skyrims ruins were very interesting , in particular the dwemer ones
I really love Skyrim. I don't care if you do or don't, but it hurts my feelings that you feel you have to bash it to pieces in a thread that I started.
Posted by: Lopov Feb 14 2013, 09:38 AM
In my first playthrough of Skyrim in 2011 I encountered a lair of Falmer somewhere north, I don't remember its name or anything else but I remember there was a main room and several ways led out. Most of them quickly ended but I had to be careful when returning to the main room because I couldn't be sure if there are more Falmer lurking somewhere. And when I finally thought that I got them all, I was ambushed by another one just when stepping into the main room - Then I discovered that there is another way going out of the main room! I was very satisfied with that cave.
I've so far mostly explored caves and camps but I'm very satisfied. There is one camp north of Whiterun, I think it's called Halted Stream Camp where it's obvious that bandits were running sort of 'butchering-mammoth' operation - it kinda gives some purpose to the camp! Not to mention that the camp had two entrances / exits but one exit is sort of dead-end and you can quickly die if you use it as an entrance. I won't spoil it how, probably most of you already know.
Posted by: Grits Feb 14 2013, 01:41 PM
Oh, there are also some ice caves on Solstheim that have a lot of winding passageways. Mikke and Torvar got turned around in there more than once.
Posted by: King Coin Feb 14 2013, 03:28 PM
There is one camp north of Whiterun, I think it's called Halted Stream Camp where it's obvious that bandits were running sort of 'butchering-mammoth' operation - it kinda gives some purpose to the camp!
I love it that the bandits in the forts/castles/caves all seem to have some sort of plot going on.
In Oblivion (not to put it down, Oblivion is a wonderful game that I played for many years) most of the bandits just seemed to be hanging out where ever they were for no particular reason.
Posted by: SubRosa Feb 14 2013, 06:16 PM
Fort Neugrad's interior is non-linear. Its not very big mind you, and you are not going to get lost inside it. But it is shaped sort of like a big donut, with an extra passage going down into the hole.
I recall a bandit ice cave that is similar, but even smaller. I think it is between Morvunskar and Raldbthar? You walk inside and there is essentially a big circle, then at the far side of the circle is a campsite and more stuff.
I think the ice cave where Luke and his lightsaber leveled sword are is the same way too. Not very big, but basically a circle.
Posted by: Lady Saga Feb 17 2013, 01:54 PM
Thanks Miss Rosa. I know that name Neugrad, but I'm not sure if I've been there or not.
Posted by: Lady Saga Mar 9 2013, 01:59 AM
Nchuand-Zel is a Dwemer dungeon located inside of Markarth's Understone Keep. It is a sizable dungeon that I didn't quite get lost in, but I did wonder "how the heck do I get over there?" You can see the path you need to take, but you aren't quite sure how to get there.
Yes, i am in this lair now, and can defintely see what you mean.
I have linked all the places so far in the OP by the way, to keep things easy to navigate.
Posted by: McBadgere Mar 10 2013, 11:07 AM
Irkingthand (I think it's that one...) is a huge place, from what I remember...There's loads of towers outside and bandits...No, not the one you go to for Mjoll....It's part of the MQ so you can only go so far into it before you do said Q-thing...But, once you're in the MQ the interior of the place is gigantic...I have to admit, there was a couple of "Do you remember where I came in?" moments to the kids (almost supernatural memories on the pair of them...)...
Posted by: Colonel Mustard Mar 10 2013, 02:08 PM
Do you mean Blackreach? The one with the gigantic cavern and all the cool glowing mushrooms and stuff, right?
Posted by: Lady Saga Mar 10 2013, 05:34 PM
Lord Haaf-Mersey did that quest for Mjoll (she's a female in distress, after all 
) so I've been in that lair. You are right, it is rather unorthodox for a Skyrim lair. It is also spread apart into two or more sections, iirc.
Posted by: McBadgere Mar 10 2013, 05:51 PM
Do you mean Blackreach? The one with the gigantic cavern and all the cool glowing mushrooms and stuff, right?
Aye, that's the one...I wasn't sure if naming it was the same as a spoiler, this not being the spoiler section and all...
...But yes, Blackreach is glorious...Probably the main problem with me getting lost was the time I spent looking upwards and turning around...
...Must check where the entrance from Mzincheleft goes to...The way from Irkinthand was confusing enough...
...Gawd I love the Dwemer city names...
...Posted by: Colonel Mustard Mar 10 2013, 06:03 PM
...Agreed; my favourite its Gharzkzahackhackghurrrk!!
It does make me think that perhaps the Dwemer as a species suffered from chronic laryingitis.
Posted by: Renee Gade IV Mar 22 2013, 12:47 AM
Broken Oar Grotto. I have to add this one to the OP for sure. I went in thinking ha! This will be a cinch! When I tried to leave, I probably went in circles three times before I figured it out. 
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