Dragon Age: Origins, Archery, Multi-Classing, etc... Options

[SubRosa]

Because I only see a topic for DA2, but not the first game. I have made some discoveries while playing, and thought I would share for the benefit of others who might try playing the game, especially as an archer.

I bought DA:O over a year ago, tried it with a Dalish Rogue/Archer, and didn't like it because my character felt useless. I tried the game again a few weeks ago as a Mage, and have been enjoying it. I have tried out a sword and board warrior, and a dual-wielding rogue long enough to play their Origins as well. Then I tried a Dalish archer again, and the blah came right back.

I have done some digging, and found that archery is really nerfed in this game, at least at the low levels.

If you are going with a Rogue archer you are going to want a high Cunning, since your talents depend on it. But that means you have to spread your points between Strength and Dexterity if you want to hit, and Cunning as well for your talents. I believe that ranged attacks are supposed to be dependent upon Dex only, but that is now how it actually works. It is the same as melee attacks, you get a bonus of 0.5 for every point of Strength and Dexterity over 10. I tried experimenting on leveling up, and saw how adding strength raised my ranged attack stat.

The Lethality talent is supposed to fix that, by making Cunning replace Strength. So I experimented by adding it through the console. It did nothing to my attack value. So either it is broken, or it modifies only bow damage, not attacks. I spent a lot of time looking at the attack value because my starting archer was missing more than she was hitting. A typical battle might have her fire 8 shots, and 5 would miss. And that was with an Attack of 60. Pretty abysmal, and the reason why I got so disappointed with the game my first time out.

Backstabs do not work with a bow either, which makes the Rogue archer even less viable.

Then I found This page on Efficient Archery. It all boils down to not using your archer talents because they slow down your attack speed considerably. Instead you need to concentrate upon high attack speed, and critical hits. Of course the one talent that improves your attack speed - Rapid Shot - also makes it impossible to critically hit. So it is useless. (however, there is a bug with the Pinpoint Strike, Stealth, and Death Hex talents that allow critical hits with Rapid Shot. Apparently every normal hit becomes a critical, and every critical becomes a normal hit). Just to make things even more interesting, every character in the game has a 3% base chance for a critical hit. Except the player character, who has none. So unless the PC is using a weapon or talent that adds a critical hit bonus, you cannot get any criticals at all. Thankfully I found this mod to fix that bug.


To enable the command console, do the following:

First go to your Dragon Age Origins\Data folder and find the DAOriginsLauncher.xml file.

Search it for the following line:
<true action="execute" file="${BINARIES_DIR}\DAOrigins.exe" path="${BINARIES_DIR}" autoquit="true" />

replace the entire line with this:
<true action="execute" file="${BINARIES_DIR}\DAOrigins.exe" path="${BINARIES_DIR}" arguments="-enabledeveloperconsole;" autoquit="true" />


Next go to your {User Name}\My Documents\BioWare\Dragon Age\Settings folder and find the KeyBindings.ini file

Find the lines (probably at the botton) that say

OpenConsole_0=(UNASSIGNED)
OpenConsole_1=(UNASSIGNED)

and change them to this:

OpenConsole_0=Keyboard::Button_Tilde
OpenConsole_1=Keyboard::Button_Tilde


I did some experimenting, and used the Console to change her from a Rogue to a Warrior. Her Attack instantly went from 60 to over 70, and the missed shots went down considerably. But I was hoping for your basic stealthy, bow using, lockpicking kind of character. Then I found out how to create a multi-classed character with the console (toward the bottom of that same page above). You can use the console to add all the talent trees from Rogue to the Warrior, and vice-versa, including the specializations like Bard or Assassin. It only matters what class you "officially" are because that is what determines your starting stats, base attack (Warrior is 60, Rogue 55) and how much health, stamina, etc... you get per level.

Multi-classing a mage is a bit tricker. The way the game is made Mages cannot use talents, and Warriors/Rogues cannot use spells. So you can use the console to add the Core Mage class, but it has no effect. However, you can still start with a Warrior or Rogue and use the console to add individual spells. They do not show up in your character sheet. But they do show up in the quick button bar at the bottom of the screen. You can move them around to different slots there as normal. They work just fine too, and use your stamina instead of magicka. I have not tried it, but you are supposed to be able to start with a Mage and do the same with Warrior and Rogue talents as well.

So you can create a mage who can pick locks and disarm traps, or a rogue who can cast spells, etc... I am going to play my newest character Banba as a hybrid of all three this way, using the Warrior as a base for the better health and to hit scores. I have already added the stealth, lockpicking, and dirty fighting talent trees. I found the first Dirty Fighting talent is handy for enemies that close to melee. A swift kick in the nards stuns them, without having to equip a shield or melee weapon. I doubt I will use any of the other talents in that tree though. I might specialize her as a ranger or a bard. I don't see her needing a lot of magic, but I expect to use some glyph spells, and maybe healing ones as well.

Finally, I just did some modding, and changed the Aim and Defensive Fire talents to remove their attack speed penalties. That should help make an archer more viable, hopefully without having to go through all of the acrobatic exploits listed on the Efficient Archery page. When I was going through the script file (talent_modal.ncs), I did not see any other archer talents that added a speed penalty. So either those two are it, or they are in a different file. Edit: Pinning Shot, Critical Shot, and Crippling Shot are in a different file - talent_singletarget.ncs - and they do slow down the attack speed as well. But when I looked in the script file, I did not see anything adding the slowdown. So back to the drawing board. Also, I see Arrow of Slaying is in talent_arrow_slaying.ncs, and Scattershot is in talent_scattershot.ncs. But I have not had time to look at those.

I am also using this mod that improves the stats of bows a little bit, but not overpoweringly so.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Aug 27 2020, 10:37 AM

[Callidus Thorn]

I never bothered with archery in DA:O just because it's flatout broken. I always bring along Leliana in my party, but I couldn't tell you how effective she is. And when I tired playing as a Dalish archer I just got bored with it.

Strength does nothing for your ranged attack, it biists damage and melee attack, and lethality only affects damage. Dexterity affects attack just as much as strength does, but also boosts your defense as well.

Rogue archers should dump their points into cunning and dexterity. That's all they need.

I imagine the simplest approach to bumping the effectiveness of your archer would be to get the mod that stops swift salve and the haste spell slowing down archers, and then bring along Morrigan and Wynne, both with haste, because it'll stack. Throw as much dexterity boosting gear as possible onto your archer, and go nuts.

This is only theory if course, playing on the 360 makes it impossible for me to test this.

That's about all I can say here, since the rest is PC tinkering and mods.

This post has been edited by Callidus Thorn: Jan 5 2014, 10:16 PM

[SubRosa]

Putting 2 points into my strength raises my ranged attack by 1. So Strength definitely does increase your ranged attack. It is supposed to be one point bonus for every point of Dexterity over 10. But in actuality it is a .05 bonus for every point of Strength and Dexterity over 10. OTOH, raising Cunning did nothing at all to raise the Attack score with a ranged weapon, even with the Lethality talent.

This is using version 1.04, which I think was the last update. It might have worked differently on earlier versions of the game.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Jan 5 2014, 10:19 PM

[Acadian]

SubRosa, thanks for making this thread to share your findings. As you know, I have DA:O and may try it again someday.

[Callidus Thorn]

Putting 2 points into my strength raises my ranged attack by 1. So Strength definitely does increase your ranged attack. It is supposed to be one point bonus for every point of Dexterity over 10. But in actuality it is a .05 bonus for every point of Strength and Dexterity over 10. OTOH, Cunning has no effect at all on ranged attacks, even with the Lethality talent.

Well I did say archery in DA:O is broken, seems I'm more right than I realised. As it turns out, there's not actually a seperate attack rating for ranged attacks, just one catch-all attack stat. Instead it is rolled against a different modifier to a melee attack.

There's still no reason for a rogue archer to put point into strength though, beyond what's required for armour.

And Lethality does nothing for the attack, it swaps strength for cunning in the damage calculation, provided cunning is greater than strength.

This post has been edited by Callidus Thorn: Jan 5 2014, 10:47 PM

[Kiln]

I love Origins but I definitely agree that archers are useless. They definitely intended their rogues to be backstabbers and not archers.

[SubRosa]

Here is a question for the DA:O crowd. How many people actually like Morrigan, and keep her in their party? As much as I love Claudia Black (who does her voice), I just cannot stand the character. The idiotic top she wears makes me want to laugh every time I look at her. Thankfully the Chasind Cache in the Kocari Wilds has a Chasind Robe you can get and save for her.

But even beyond that, she is not only a pain in the rear, but a moron. For example, she thinks it is a great idea to go right after Teryn Logain, without making any effort to gather help from nobles like Arl Eamon, or other factions. Yeah, let's the three of us (plus one dog) attack the new king and his entire army in his home base. Really smart. Her comments at the Circle Tower are just as moronic. She would rather let all the mages be killed than help them. Well idiot, that means not having any mages in the army later against the Darkspawn. Really bright. Let's just cut off our nose to spite our faces while we are at it.

After my first character found Flemeth's Grimoire in the Circle Tower, and Morrigan came to her later and said that Flemeth planned on killing/possessing her to extend her own life, I could not see any problem with that. After all, Flemeth did do my character and Alistar a solid by saving out lives at the end of the battle of Ostagar. The way I see it, I owe her. Morrigan OTOH, has done nothing but bitch and complain and be an idiot. If the game gave me a choice, I'd help Flemeth do the deed.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Jan 6 2014, 09:57 PM

[Callidus Thorn]

Here is a question for the DA:O crowd. How many people actually like Morrigan, and keep her in their party? As much as I love Claudia Black (who does her voice), I just cannot stand the character. The idiotic top she wears makes me want to laugh every time I look at her. Thankfully the Chasind Cache in the Kocari Wilds has a Chasind Robe you can get and save for her.

I've yet to actually use her in my party throughout the game, though with my current run I'm going to. My characters going to go through the Witch Hunt DLC, so I want a character who romances Morrigan. Though your talking about her top reminds me of one of the conversations that takes place between Morrigan and Leliana:

Leliana: You are very beautiful Morrigan.
Morrigan: Tell me something I do not know.
Leliana: But you always dress in such rags. It suits you I suppose. A little tear here, a little rip there to show some skin. I understand.
Morrigan: You understand I lived in a forest, I hope?

But even beyond that, she is not only a pain in the rear, but a moron. For example, she thinks it is a great idea to go right after Teryn Logain, without making any effort to gather help from nobles like Arl Eamon, or other factions. Yeah, let's the three of us (plus one dog) attack the new king and his entire army in his home base. Really smart. Her comments at the Circle Tower are just as moronic. She would rather let all the mages be killed than help them. Well idiot, that means not having any mages in the army later against the Darkspawn. Really bright. Let's just cut off our nose to spite our faces while we are at it.

Actually I've always thought she had a point when it comes to going after Loghain. His powerbase is practically non-existent, and few nobles would be inclined to trust him after the debacle at Ostagar, regardless of him trying to pin it all on the Grey Wardens. He might be the second most powerful man in Ferelden, once Highcastle gets trashed, but he's also the least popular among the nobles. And after getting attacked in the tavern in Lothering by Loghain's men, her opinion gains even more weight, once it becomes clear Loghain's actively looking for you.

As for the Mages, again, she has a point. The Mages are controlled by the Chantry via the Templars, and flatout forbidden from many types of magic. Hell, if the Chantry or the Circle knew the truth about Wynne they'd have her executed. Add to that the fact that the Circle has practically fallen, so most of the Mages are either dead or turned into Abominations, and the Templars could well be more helpful against the darkspawn. They might not have magic, but they've got the numbers and are trained to fight. When she sees the Circle she sees the complete opposite of what she has been taught magic is, the powerful all but enslaved. Is it any surprise she wants it torn down?

After my first character found Flemeth's Grimoire in the Circle Tower, and Morrigan came to her later and said that Flemeth planned on killing/possessing her to extend her own life, I could not see any problem with that. After all, Flemeth did do my character and Alistar a solid by saving out lives at the end of the battle of Ostagar. The way I see it, I owe her. Morrigan OTOH, has done nothing but bitch and complain and be an idiot. If the game gave me a choice, I'd help Flemeth do the deed.

So you don't see any problem with Flemeth taking Morrigan as a child, by who knows what means, and raising her solely to serve as a new vessel for her form? Bearing in mind that Morrigan's personality is more of a reflection of her upbringing at Flemeth's hands than anything else? Flemeth saved you and Alistair for one reason alone; self interest. None but Grey Wardens could end the Blight, and Flemeth knew, even tells you that. She only saved you because she could use you, just as she's using Morrigan.

Do I like Morrigan as a character? Actually yes, I just don't generally put her in the party because I tend to paly mages. So I handle offense as an Arcane Warrior/Bloodmage, and bring along Wynne to handle healing and support magic. That and keeping on Morrigan's good side can be problematic.

[SubRosa]

Leliana: You are very beautiful Morrigan.
Morrigan: Tell me something I do not know.
Leliana: But you always dress in such rags. It suits you I suppose. A little tear here, a little rip there to show some skin. I understand.
Morrigan: You understand I lived in a forest, I hope?

And that is the best reason to not wear something as ridiculous as that top, but something substantial instead. Her boobs would be falling out everytime she turned around, and be getting scratched up by every branch, burr, and prickly thing in the forest. It is something made by the game designers to titillate adolescent males.

Actually I've always thought she had a point when it comes to going after Loghain. His powerbase is practically non-existent, and few nobles would be inclined to trust him after the debacle at Ostagar, regardless of him trying to pin it all on the Grey Wardens. He might be the second most powerful man in Ferelden, once Highcastle gets trashed, but he's also the least popular among the nobles. And after getting attacked in the tavern in Lothering by Loghain's men, her opinion gains even more weight, once it becomes clear Loghain's actively looking for you.

So you figure three people taking on an entire army all by themselves (with a dog if you did that optional side quest at Ostagar), is winning odds? Remember, he walked off the field with all of his own people intact. While it is true that many people do not like him because he is a commoner, no one is willing to openly rebel against him either. Except for the people like Arl Eamon, whom he has already taken care of. The politics really do not matter though. Three people vs. an army is what it boils down to. That is a purely suicide.

As for the Mages, again, she has a point. The Mages are controlled by the Chantry via the Templars, and flatout forbidden from many types of magic. Hell, if the Chantry or the Circle knew the truth about Wynne they'd have her executed. Add to that the fact that the Circle has practically fallen, so most of the Mages are either dead or turned into Abominations, and the Templars could well be more helpful against the darkspawn. They might not have magic, but they've got the numbers and are trained to fight. When she sees the Circle she sees the complete opposite of what she has been taught magic is, the powerful all but enslaved. Is it any surprise she wants it torn down?

Oh, I am not fan of the way Mages are enslaved by the Chantry either. But the fact is that if Morrigan had been taken to the Circle as a child, her blood tucked away in a phylactery, and then raised there, she would be exactly like every other mage there. She would either toe their line, be Tranquiled, or be killed. So her contempt for the Circle Mages just comes across as her being too thick to see that there but for the grace of the Maker, she would be herself. It is not simply a lack of empathy, but a lack of the intellectual ability to see the inescapable position that the mages are placed in. If Morrigan was really against the idea of mages being enslaved by the Chantry and Templars, she would not be eager to stand by and watch the Templars slaughter a bunch of mages. She would be saying the opposite - "Lets go kill those Templars". She's on the Chantry's side. The same people who would kill her if they knew she was an apostate mage. She's like a Jew saying "Let's go help those Nazi's kill other Jews".

I also disagree with the idea that the Circle is useless after Uldred's attempted revolution. We find several mages still alive and well in the Tower, either hiding from the blood mages and abominations, or keeping them at bay. We find more after the tower is cleared. We also have a brief wilderness encounter where we come across mages killing a small horde of darkspawn. That right there is the game clearly demonstrating their worth. OTOH, the Templars are not even willing to go into the tower to clean it out without waiting for an army to back them up. That is not a ringing endorsement of their abilities.

So you don't see any problem with Flemeth taking Morrigan as a child, by who knows what means, and raising her solely to serve as a new vessel for her form? Bearing in mind that Morrigan's personality is more of a reflection of her upbringing at Flemeth's hands than anything else? Flemeth saved you and Alistair for one reason alone; self interest. None but Grey Wardens could end the Blight, and Flemeth knew, even tells you that. She only saved you because she could use you, just as she's using Morrigan.

I would have a problem with Flemeth doing that to Alistar or Leilana, or many of the other characters. But in Morrigan's case it is simply good riddance to bad rubbish. I really do not see her behavior as a reflection of Flemeth's parenting, but rather simply her own lack of intelligence and prickly personality. Plenty of kids have good parents and turn out to be absolute shats. The same in reverse. My parents raised me to be a homophobic racist. That did not stop me from dating African-American women. When it comes down to it, who you are and how you behave is your own responsibility. Morrigan has no one to blame but herself for her behavior.

I do agree that Flemeth did have some small bit of self-interest in saving the Warden (it makes it sound like you run a prison!). But that does not mean you owe her any less. The simple fact is you would be dead if not for her. Most people in her position - rogue mages vamprically sucking the life out of others to live forever - don't go out of their way to help the Good Guys. I am not convinced that she would have been in any real danger if she had just let you die at Ostagar. She had already demonstrated that she was capable of hiding herself and her home from the darkspawn horde when it was in the Kocari Wilds. After Ostagar the horde moved on, making it even safer for her. That is reinforced by that fact that you can go back to her place later and she is still there, alive and well. She could have very easily left the entire thing for other people to worry about. Why should she care if the rest of the world burns? The only thing she absolutely needs from the rest of the world is a new vessel to inhabit every sixty or so years, and if the darkspawn kill everyone in Thedas, she will have to move to a new continent to find more babies to raise/inhabit.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Jan 6 2014, 11:26 PM

[Callidus Thorn]

So you figure three people taking on an entire army all by themselves (with a dog if you did that optional side quest at Ostagar), is winning odds? Remember, he walked off the field with all of his own people intact. While it is true that many people do not like him because he is a commoner, no one is willing to openly rebel against him either. Except for the people like Arl Eamon, whom he has already taken care of. The politics really do not matter though. Three people vs. an army is what it boils down to. That is a purely suicide.

Who said anything about taking on an army?

What's this idea of meeting them in open battle? Infiltrate the palace and kill him. Problem solved. Hell, you can walk openly around Denerim, despite orders to have you killed. In a later mission you infiltrate the Arl of Denerim's estate, so getting into the palace to assassinate Loghain is a possible and viable course of action.

Oh, I am not fan of the way Mages are enslaved by the Chantry either. But the fact is that if Morrigan had been taken to the Circle as a child, her blood tucked away in a phylactery, and then raised there, she would be exactly like every other mage there. She would either toe their line, be Tranquiled, or be killed. So her contempt for the Circle Mages just comes across as her being too thick to see that there but for the grace of the Maker, she would be herself. It is not simply a lack of empathy, but a lack of the intellectual ability to see the inescapable position that the mages are placed in. If Morrigan was really against the idea of mages being enslaved by the Chantry and Templars, she would not be eager to stand by and watch the Templars slaughter a bunch of mages. She would be saying the opposite - "Lets go kill those Templars". She's on the Chantry's side. The same people who would kill her if they knew she was an apostate mage. She's like a Jew saying "Let's go help those Nazi's kill other Jews".

I also disagree with the idea that the Circle is useless after Uldred's attempted revolution. We find several mages still alive and well in the Tower, either hiding from the blood mages and abominations, or keeping them at bay. We find more after the tower is cleared. We also have a brief wilderness encounter where we come across mages killing a small horde of darkspawn. That right there is the game clearly demonstrating their worth. OTOH, the Templars are not even willing to go into the tower to clean it out without waiting for an army to back them up. That is not a ringing endorsement of their abilities.

Morrigan was kept from the Circle by the very same perosn who taught her about it, Flemeth. So her opinion is much the same as Flemeth's, who has taken magic far beyond what any mage of the Circle would be capable of. And Morrigan would hardly think along the lines of "there but for the grace of the Maker", considering she openly states to Leliana that she doesn't believe in him.

The only reason the mages are enslaved is because they allowed it to happen. Drawing a parallel between them and Jews and Nazis is ridiculous. The mages could actually do something to change their situation, but they don't. To use your parallel, these are Jews sitting in concentration camps, with better guns than their guards, that they are trained to use, yet they're content to just sit there in captivity. Because they're too scared to do anything about it. And these Jews are actually helping the Nazi's keep order in the camps. I imagine that in that scenario, other Jews would indeed want them dead, because at that point they are willing participants in their own enslavement.

Take the mage origin, where the First Enchanter actually demands that you tell him what Jowan is planning, because he is practising magic banned by the Chantry. They enslave themselves, and Morrigan despises them for their weakness, is that really so hard to understand?

As for the Templars performance when the Circle falls, you are told that they were prepared for a few abominations, not the horde that attacked them. And I never said that the Circle was useless, but with them gone every Templar in Ferelden could be called to fight the darkspawn, as opposed to maybe two dozen mages. I'd argue the templars would make for a more effective force.

And it would thin their ranks nicely, a bonus for any Wardens from the mage origin.

I would have a problem with Flemeth doing that to Alistar or Leilana, or many of the other characters. But in Morrigan's case it is simply good riddance to bad rubbish. I really do not see her behavior as a reflection of Flemeth's parenting, but rather simply her own lack of intelligence and prickly personality. Plenty of kids have good parents and turn out to be absolute shats. The same in reverse. My parents raised me to be a homophobic racist. That did not stop me from dating African-American women. When it comes down to it, who you are and how you behave is your own responsibility. Morrigan has no one to blame but herself for her behavior.

So you seriously think an upbringing where she had limited contact with people, relied on either herself or Flemeth, on top of Flemeth's teaching had nothing to do with the way she is?

You raise a child to think and act in a certain way, isolated from those who think differently, then that's how they end up thinking and acting. And that's what happened to Morrigan. She didn't have much in the way of exposure to other ways of thinking until being sent out of the wilds with the Warden.

And considering that of those people she did meet, all of them would have turned her over to the Templars for execution, for no better reason than fear and blind ibedience to a religion she openly scorns, would certainly lower her opinion of people in general.

I do agree that Flemeth did have some small bit of self-interest in saving the Warden (it makes it sound like you run a prison!). But that does not mean you owe her any less. The simple fact is you would be dead if not for her. Most people in her position - rogue mages vamprically sucking the life out of others to live forever - don't go out of their way to help the Good Guys. I am not convinced that she would have been in any real danger if she had just let you die at Ostagar. She had already demonstrated that she was capable of hiding herself and her home from the darkspawn horde when it was in the Kocari Wilds. After Ostagar the horde moved on, making it even safer for her. That is reinforced by that fact that you can go back to her place later and she is still there, alive and well. She could have very easily left the entire thing for other people to worry about. Why should she care if the rest of the world burns? The only thing she absolutely needs from the rest of the world is a new vessel to inhabit every sixty or so years, and if the darkspawn kill everyone in Thedas, she will have to move to a new continent to find more babies to raise/inhabit.

Small bit of self interest?

Flemeth can do nothing to stop the Blight. And there's the Archdemon to consider. An old god, tainted and driven to destroy everything, a monster that only a Grey Warden can stop. Sure she can hide from the unthinking horde, but from the Archdemon?

And bear in mind that her interest in the Wardens is not some spur of the moment thing. The fact she preserved those treaties demonstrates just how serious a threat she considers the darkspawn to be. If she could simply hide from the Blight, then there's no need to protect those treaties. She knew that one day, she might need the Wardens, and protected those treaties to ensure that they could deal with a Blight.

[SubRosa]

ho said anything about taking on an army?

What's this idea of meeting them in open battle? Infiltrate the palace and kill him. Problem solved. Hell, you can walk openly around Denerim, despite orders to have you killed. In a later mission you infiltrate the Arl of Denerim's estate, so getting into the palace to assassinate Loghain is a possible and viable course of action.

The army is what stands between you and Loghain, so yes, you are taking on an army. Whether you try to sneak past all those soldiers, bounty hunters, mercenaries, and simple refugees who are after the bounty on your head, or you want to fight them straight on. Alistar even comments on the fact that going straight at Loghain rather than gaining the support of the nobles is a stupid idea, because he has an entire army at his beck and call. For that matter, the game won't even let you do that, so the devs must have thought it was an impossible idea. Given Morrigan's complete lack of subtlety, I have a hard time believing she would advocate a stealthy assassin's approach either. She is not even capable of grasping the concept of one hand washing the other.

Morrigan was kept from the Circle by the very same perosn who taught her about it, Flemeth. So her opinion is much the same as Flemeth's, who has taken magic far beyond what any mage of the Circle would be capable of. And Morrigan would hardly think along the lines of "there but for the grace of the Maker", considering she openly states to Leliana that she doesn't believe in him.

The only reason the mages are enslaved is because they allowed it to happen. Drawing a parallel between them and Jews and Nazis is ridiculous. The mages could actually do something to change their situation, but they don't. To use your parallel, these are Jews sitting in concentration camps, with better guns than their guards, that they are trained to use, yet they're content to just sit there in captivity. Because they're too scared to do anything about it. And these Jews are actually helping the Nazi's keep order in the camps. I imagine that in that scenario, other Jews would indeed want them dead, because at that point they are willing participants in their own enslavement.

Take the mage origin, where the First Enchanter actually demands that you tell him what Jowan is planning, because he is practising magic banned by the Chantry. They enslave themselves, and Morrigan despises them for their weakness, is that really so hard to understand?

As for the Templars performance when the Circle falls, you are told that they were prepared for a few abominations, not the horde that attacked them. And I never said that the Circle was useless, but with them gone every Templar in Ferelden could be called to fight the darkspawn, as opposed to maybe two dozen mages. I'd argue the templars would make for a more effective force.

And it would thin their ranks nicely, a bonus for any Wardens from the mage origin.

So when a child is forcibly taken from their family, has their blood drawn and hidden away in a sealed vault that is impossible for them to get into, then they spend the rest of their lives constantly watched by an army of thugs who will kill them the moment the look cross-eyed, they are supposed to rise up and defeat the entire Chantry? A child? How many children have destroyed massive religious organizations run by adults, all on their own? You really think every ten year old should rise up and slay the Templars who come to haul them away after they have been outed by their own parents? Then go on to kill every single person in the entire Chantry?

You should read more history. Because the way Irving and the rest of the Circle behave is exactly what happened during the Holocaust. The Nazis used other Jews to do all the dirty work in the death camps. The things like taking people's clothing before they went in the shower, hauling away the bodies to be burned, and so on. They were called Sonderkommandos. So why did they cooperate? Why did they enslave themselves? They did it because it meant they got to live a while longer. If Iriving did not act like he did in the Mage Origin, then he would end up Tranquiled or killed by the Templars. Just like the Sonderkommandos, he has to help enslave others like him, or die. Likewise, you seem to be implying that the Jews are to blame for being slaughtered, because they allowed it to happen as well. It is not that simple. It never is when you are a minority who is isolated and alone, and you see the might of an entire society massed against you. It is even worse for the mages, because they are all taken away as children. They do not have the maturity or will or even wisdom of an adult to guide them. By the time they do reach adulthood, they have lived a decade or more in that environment of fear and distrust

While it is true that some mages can cast spells like Cone of Cold, or Earthquake, it is also true that they are a minority that is vastly outnumbered by their enemies. It was likewise true that many Jews killed in concentration camps were war veterans, people trained and experienced at fighting and killing. So too with African-Americans enslaved by Europeans. Or Celts enslaved by Romans. One person, no matter how much of an elite fighter they are, cannot fight an entire society. Just like the Jews, the Africans, etc... the mages cannot fight everyone in Ferelden and win. It is called the Angry Peasant Law. Not even Frankenstein's monster - who was invincible, could stand against the entire village armed with pitchforks and torches.

It was not even just the Jews who enslaved themselves, but all the regular Germans too. You should watch interviews with German civilians from that time. They all lived in an environment of fear. No one knew who might be an informer. Everyone knew that if you were fingered by someone, it meant the Gestapo (or later the SD) would come and haul you off to be tortured, and maybe sent to a concentration camp. Whether you were guilty of anything or not was beside the point. Everyone was afraid to act. Even worse, everyone was afraid not to inform on other people. Because what would happen if they found out you knew someone was a Jew, and said nothing? You would go to the camp too. Worse, if you spoke out against it you would be executed, just like the members of the White Rose were. That is how dictatorships work everywhere. It is not a case of blind obedience on the part of the minorities who are repressed. It is fear and intimidation, and the sincere belief that there is nothing you can do to change things.

This is how the people in Ferelden live. Not just the mages, but all the people. Everyone is afraid. Everyone is terrified that a mage is going to turn them into a frog, or something else slimy. They look at all mages with fear and suspicion. At the other end of the spectrum, all mages live in constant fear, because the Templars might execute them at any moment, with the regular people cheering them on. No one can trust anyone else, because you do not know who might out you for being a mage, or who might secretly be a mage. The Mage Origin makes the environment of fear and distrust in the Circle very palpable. When you play a mage and use the coercion options in dialogue, the fear of mundane folk becomes very plain as well. Then when Uldred led some of the mages to rise up against the Templars, look what happened. They were possessed by demons and turned into abominations. That is definitely the cure being worse than the disease. I'll take Greagor over Slothy any day.

So you seriously think an upbringing where she had limited contact with people, relied on either herself or Flemeth, on top of Flemeth's teaching had nothing to do with the way she is?

You raise a child to think and act in a certain way, isolated from those who think differently, then that's how they end up thinking and acting. And that's what happened to Morrigan. She didn't have much in the way of exposure to other ways of thinking until being sent out of the wilds with the Warden.

And considering that of those people she did meet, all of them would have turned her over to the Templars for execution, for no better reason than fear and blind ibedience to a religion she openly scorns, would certainly lower her opinion of people in general.

I seriously believe that Morrigan could have turned out in any way imaginable. Again, I was raised to hate African-Americans, homosexuals, athiests, Hispanics, Asians, basically everyone who was not a White-Anglo Saxon Christian. Yet I turned out to be a lesbian Witch whose best relationship to date was with an African-American woman. I am hardly unique either. If I could turn out the polar opposite of what my parents taught me to be, then Morrigan could to. We cannot blame our parents for every fault in ourselves. In the end who we are is up to us.

Small bit of self interest?

Flemeth can do nothing to stop the Blight. And there's the Archdemon to consider. An old god, tainted and driven to destroy everything, a monster that only a Grey Warden can stop. Sure she can hide from the unthinking horde, but from the Archdemon?

And bear in mind that her interest in the Wardens is not some spur of the moment thing. The fact she preserved those treaties demonstrates just how serious a threat she considers the darkspawn to be. If she could simply hide from the Blight, then there's no need to protect those treaties. She knew that one day, she might need the Wardens, and protected those treaties to ensure that they could deal with a Blight.

Yes, a small bit of self-interest. Almost all of Ferelden is content to ignore the Blight. Really, why should Flemeth be any different? She can literally decide to ignore it and leave it to someone else. King Cailin is very plain that he does not even think it is a Blight. Loghain obviously thinks the same, since he didn't mind losing a battle to the darkspawn in return for getting Cailin out of the way. He clearly believes that he can deal with the darkspawn with no problems. I am not saying Flemeth should not take it seriously. Cailin should have taken it seriously. So should Loghain. But even though their lives are dependent upon stopping the Blight, they do not. That is a gigantic bit of self-interest, but still not enough to motivate them. OTOH the game shows us that Flemeth's life is not in the balance, because she is still there to go and find, even though she is living near ground zero. Apparently the Archdemon cannot lick one old gazillion year old chick after all. Or maybe it just has better things to do with its time?

So no, Flemeth does not have to help the Wardens. Just like Logain does not have to. Flemeth chooses to. Heck, Morrigan herself is only with you because Flemeth makes her go. She makes it plain when you meet her that she could not give a crap if the darkspawn kill everyone in the world. She is happy to watch it burn, even though she has just as much self-interest in stopping the darkspawn as Flemeth does.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Jan 7 2014, 01:22 AM

[Callidus Thorn]

The army is what stands between you and Loghain, so yes, you are taking on an army. Whether you try to sneak past all those soldiers, bounty hunters, mercenaries, and simple refugees who are after the bounty on you head, or you want to fight them straight on. Alistar even comments on the fact that going straight at Loghain rather than gaining the support of the nobles is a stupid idea.

The bulk of the army is not in Denerim, Loghain is. So taking him out is a viable option.

So when a child is forcibly taken from their family, has their blood drawn and hidden away in a sealed vault that is impossible for them to get into, then they spend the rest of their lives constantly watched by an army of thugs who will kill them the moment the look cross-eyed, they are supposed to rise up and defeat the entire Chantry? A child? How many children have destroyed massive religious organizations run by adults, all on their own? You really think every ten year old should rise up and slay the Templars who come to haul them away after they have been outed by their own parents? Then go on to kill every single person in the entire Chantry?

Well, for one it's not impossible to get into the vault, as shown by the mage origin.

As to the rest, consider Jowan. He goes against the Circle and the Chantry, even dabbling in blood magic, knowing it could get him killed. He then proceeds to bitch-slap the First Enchanter and several Templars, including their leader Gregoir, and then escapes.

If one mage can do that, especially the latter half, then why can't the mages rise up against the Templars?

You should read more history. Because the way Irving and the rest of the Circle behave is exactly what happened during the Holocaust. The Nazis used other Jews to do all the dirty work in the death camps. The things like taking people's clothing before they went in the shower, hauling away the bodies to be burned, and so on. They were called Sonderkommandos. So why did they cooperate? Why did they enslave themselves? They did it because it meant they got to live a while longer. If Iriving did not act like he did in the Mage Origin, then he would end up Tranquiled or killed by the Templars. Just like the Sonderkommandos, he has to help enslave others like him, or die. Likewise, you are implying that the Jews are to blame for being slaughtered, because they allowed it to happen as well. It is not that simple. It never is when you are a minority who is isolated and alone, and you see the might of an entire society massed against you. It is even worse for the mages, because they are all taken away as children. They do not have the maturity or will or even wisdom of an adult to guide them.

It was not even just the Jews who enslaved themselves, but all the regular Germans too. You should watch interviews with German civilians from that time. They all lived in an environment of fear. No one knew who might be an informer. Everyone knew that if you were fingered by someone, it meant the Gestapo (or later the SD) would come and haul you off to be tortured, and maybe sent to a concentration camp. Everyone was afraid to act. Even worse, everyone was afraid not to inform on other people. Because what would happen if they found out you knew someone was a Jew, and said nothing? You would go to the camp too. Worse, if you spoke out against it you would be executed, just like the members of the White Rose were. That is how dictatorships work everywhere.

Would you stop drawing this [censored] parallel!!!

I find it highly disrespectful to compare the contents of a videogame to such an atrocity.

The mages have the power to change their situation, but lack the will. Consider how many mages were secretly studying blood magic, inside the Circle, under the Templar's noses. An organized effort, starting from the top, could have crushed the Templars.

If one apprentice mage could drop several Templars and the First Enchanter with a single spell, the Circle working together would be impossible for the Templars to stop.

I seriously believe that Morrigan could have turned out in any way imaginable. Again, I was raised to hate African-Americans, homosexuals, athiests, Hispanics, Asians, basically everyone who was not a White-Anglo Saxon Christian. Yet I turned out to be a lesbian Witch whose best relationship to date was an African-American woman. I am hardly unique either. If I could turn out the polar opposite of what my parents taught me to be, then Morrigan could to. We cannot blame our parents for every fault in ourselves. In the end who we are is up to us.

So because you turned out differently than your upbringing, everyone should?

So you had no models of different behaviour to look to? You turned out completely different, the polar opposite to your upbringing, with no outside influence whatsoever?

You'll excuse me for finding that a little difficult to believe. But that's the situation Morrigan has. Barring a few short trips to the nearby village, everything she knows of the world comes from Flemeth. In such a situation the outcome is pretty much inevitable.

Yes, a small bit of self-interest. Almost all of Ferelden is content to ignore the Blight. Really, why should Flemeth be any different? She can literally decide to ignore it and leave it to someone else. King Cailin is very plain that he does not even think it is a Blight. Loghain obviously thinks the same, since he didn't mind losing a battle to the darkspawn in return for getting Cailin out of the way. He clearly believes that he can deal with the darkspawn with no problems. I am not saying Flemeth should not take it seriously. Cailin should have taken it seriously. So should Loghain. But even though their lives are dependent upon stopping the Blight, they do not. That is a gigantic bit of self-interest, but still not enough to motivate them. OTOH the game shows us that Flemeth's life is not in the balance, because she is still there to go and find, even though she is living near ground zero. Apparently the Archdemon cannot lick one old gazillion year old chick after all. Or maybe it just has better things to do with its time?

So no, Flemeth does not have to help the Wardens. Just like Logain does not have to. Flemeth chooses to. Heck, Morrigan herself is only with you because Flemeth makes her go. She makes it plain when you meet her that she could not give a crap if the darkspawn kill everyone in the world. She is happy to watch it, even though she has just as much self-interest in stopping the darkspawn as Flemeth does.

Cailan was an idiot, as we can clearly see, more interested in dreams of heroism. He was actually disappointed by the thought that it might not be a blight.

Loghain was motivated more by paranoia than anything else, fearing his old enemies the Orleisian would take advantage of any weakness and attack, and that the Grey Wardens would betray them. In his mind that was the greater threat, though his character comes through far more in the books set before the events of the game.

And if Flemeth had nothing to fear from the Blight, if she doesn't care if the darkspawn kill everyone, then why did she preserve the treaties?

Doing so serves only one purpose; to aid the Grey Wardens in stopping a Blight, ensuring that an army marches to their call. Yet she did this long before there was a threat of a Blight. So if it was no threat to her, and she didn't care, then why do it?

The only reason she would do so in light of the above is that a Blight is a threat to her.



But this argument is going nowhere. I suggest we chalk this up to differing opinions, and let it lie.

This post has been edited by Callidus Thorn: Jan 7 2014, 01:33 AM

[SubRosa]

The bulk of the army is not in Denerim, Loghain is. So taking him out is a viable option.

Seeing that the developers would not even allow this to happen, they disagree with you.

Well, for one it's not impossible to get into the vault, as shown by the mage origin.

As to the rest, consider Jowan. He goes against the Circle and the Chantry, even dabbling in blood magic, knowing it could get him killed. He then proceeds to bitch-slap the First Enchanter and several Templars, including their leader Gregoir, and then escapes.

If one mage can do that, especially the latter half, then why can't the mages rise up against the Templars?

I do not know what Mage Origin you played, but in the one in the game Jowan and co only get into the vault because Irving lets them. Whether you rat Jowan out or not, he is there waiting at the end. You only get in because he wants to give you the rope to hang yourself with.

As I said before, the problem with the Mages rising up against the Templars is that they cannot trust one another. The Mage Origin makes that very clear. Whoever speaks out against the Chantry gets betrayed. On top of that is the Angry Peasant Law I brought up in the last post. They may have individual power, but they don't have the numbers. The Tiger tank absolutely outclassed the Sherman. But we sent 12 Shermans against every Tiger. With those odds, the Shermans win. OTOH, we did see what blood magic can do in the Circle later on. It got everyone possessed by demons and turned into abominations. Like I said in my last post, that cure is worse than the disease.

Would you stop drawing this [censored] parallel!!!

I find it highly disrespectful to compare the contents of a videogame to such an atrocity.

The mages have the power to change their situation, but lack the will. Consider how many mages were secretly studying blood magic, inside the Circle, under the Templar's noses. An organized effort, starting from the top, could have crushed the Templars.

If one apprentice mage could drop several Templars and the First Enchanter with a single spell, the Circle working together would be impossible for the Templars to stop.

I am drawing that parallel because it is a valid one. The same with Africans enslaved by Europeans (or Arabs), or any of the other examples I cited. At times all of them also tried rising up against their oppressors in the way you say they must. It never worked out well of the rebels. In reality it just does not work out the way you would like. For a minority to rise up against an oppressor and succeed, they need the help of the majority, of the regular people who are not like them. For example, it took an army of White Northerners for African slaves to gain their freedom. For the Mages to free themselves from the Chantry, it would take a huge number of regular, non-magical folk standing with them against the Templars.

So because you turned out differently than your upbringing, everyone should?

So you had no models of different behaviour to look to? You turned out completely different, the polar opposite to your upbringing, with no outside influence whatsoever?

You'll excuse me for finding that a little difficult to believe. But that's the situation Morrigan has. Barring a few short trips to the nearby village, everything she knows of the world comes from Flemeth. In such a situation the outcome is pretty much inevitable.

Because I turned out differently I am proof that everyone could. That is the point. I literally had no positive references points to any of the things I was taught to hate. For example, movies back then literally could not show a happy gay couple. It was part of a self-censorship that Hollywood took on to avoid the government stepping in and censoring them. I had no good influences. But I overcame that. Morrigan can too. She is the master of her destiny, and of who and what she is. The same it true of everyone. Our parents are not to blame for everything we do.

Cailan was an idiot, as we can clearly see, more interested in dreams of heroism. He was actually disappointed by the thought that it might not be a blight.

Loghain was motivated more by paranoia than anything else, fearing his old enemies the Orleisian would take advantage of any weakness and attack, and that the Grey Wardens would betray them. In his mind that was the greater threat, though his character comes through far more in the books set before the events of the game.

And if Flemeth had nothing to fear from the Blight, if she doesn't care if the darkspawn kill everyone, then why did she preserve the treaties?

Doing so serves only one purpose; to aid the Grey Wardens in stopping a Blight, ensuring that an army marches to their call. Yet she did this long before there was a threat of a Blight. So if it was no threat to her, and she didn't care, then why do it?

The only reason she would do so in light of the above is that a Blight is a threat to her.

Why did Flemeth preserve the treaties? We don't know. Bioware never seems to make it clear. Apparently some spark of goodness in her perhaps? Maybe she just flipped a coin? The point I have been laboring to make is that not everyone acts out of nothing but pure self-interest. Flemeth, and anyone else, is capable of making choices for reasons other than realpolitick ones. Even dictators are capable of doing nice things from time to time. They have girlfriends, play with their dogs, go to their kid's baseball games (and execute the other team if they win). What I am saying is that Flemeth saves your life because it was her choice. Not because she was forced to do it by someone or something else.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Jan 7 2014, 01:55 AM

[Callidus Thorn]

Okay, this is really the last I'm saying on this matter. Mostly because I'm getting tired of arguing real world versus vedeogame world.

Seeing that the developers would not even allow this to happen, they disagree with you.

Actually it would just screw up the plot later on. I'd say more, but that would include spoilers.

I do not know what Mage Origin you played, but in the one in the game Jowan and co only get into the vault because Irving lets them. Whether you rat Jowan out or not, he is there waiting at the end. You only get in because he wants to give you the rope to hang yourself with.

As I said before, the problem with the Mages rising up against the Templars is that they cannot trust one another. The Mage Origin makes that very clear. Whoever speaks out against the Chantry gets betrayed. On top of that is the Angry Peasant Law I brought up in the last post. They may have individual power, but they don't have the numbers. The Tiger tank absolutely outclassed the Sherman. But we sent 12 Shermans against every Tiger. With those odds, the Shermans win. OTOH, we did see what blood magic can do in the Circle later on. It got everyone possessed by demons and turned into abominations. Like I said in my last post, that cure is worse than the disease.

Irving turned a blind eye, but that's all. He didn't give them the password, or instructions on how to get there, he just looked the other way. And not to give us rope to hang ourself, but to ensure that the Chantry loses one of their own by making sure she's caught aiding a blood mage.

And your argument that the mages can't trust each other is contradicted by the game. If mages couldn't trust each other how was Uldred able to assemble a force of blood mages that he thought strong enough to wipe out the Templars and any mages who opposed him? If he did that hiding everything from both the mages and the templars, then it could easily be done by the mages from the top down.

And as for blod magic, well the Tevinter Imperium is built on blood magic and it's still around, and isn't an abomination infested mess, so you're wrong on that point as well. And they've been practising it for centuries, so it's not a gateway to abominations.

I am drawing that parallel because it is a valid one. The same with Africans enslaved by Europeans (or Arabs), or any of the other examples I cited. At times all of them also tried rising up against their oppressors in the way you say they must. It never worked out well of the rebels. In reality it just does not work out the way you would like. For a minority to rise up against an oppressor and succeed, they need the help of the majority, of the regular people who are not like them. For example, it took an army of White Northerners for African slaves to gain their freedom. For the Mages to free themselves from the Chantry, it would take a huge number of regular, non-magical folk standing with them against the Templars.

Unless you're suggesting the Jews were able to kill with nothing but minds, you're parallel fails utterly.

We see firsthand that the mages can take on the templars, if an apprentice can best several at once. And they're actually being trained to do so, right under the noses of the templars, as we see when we go there after Ostagar. If the First Enchanter had been working with Uldred, and the mages were working together, the uprising at the Circle could well have succeeded. Uldred pushed too far, and that's what got him. If he hadn't had to fight mages as well, he wouldn't have had to reach as much, and so wouldn#t have faced the same danger.

Because I turned out differently I am proof that everyone could. That is the point. I literally had no positive references points to any of the things I was taught to hate. For example, movies back then literally could not show a happy gay couple. It was part of a self-censorship that Hollywood took on to avoid the government stepping in and censoring them. I had no good influences. But I overcame that. Morrigan can too. [u]She is the master of her destiny, and of who and what she is[/i]. The same it true of everyone. Our parents are not to blame for everything we do.

Here's the problem with your argument, it's based on the underlined, and as we're shown in game, this belief is wrong.

Morrigan was raised by an abomination whose sole motivation was molding her into a vessel to transfer her essence to. We know this for a fact, and we know she's done this multiple times. Do you really think she's been able to do so in such a way that she can't affect her daughters' development as a person?

She really isn't the master of her destiny, the only reason she has any hope is due to sheer chance, the finding of Flemeth's grimoire. And even then, she has to ask the Warden to act in her stead, because she knows how vulnerable she is to Flemeth.

It's only after Flemeth is dealt with that their's any possibility for change in Morrigan, and the game ends too soon after to see if there is any. Though there might be a difference in her in the Witch Hunt DLC.

Why did Flemeth preserve the treaties? We don't know. Bioware never seems to make it clear. Apparently some spark of goodness in her perhaps? Maybe she just flipped a coin? The point I have been laboring to make is that not everyone acts out of nothing but pure self-interest. Flemeth, and anyone else, is capable of making choices for reasons other than realpolitick ones. Even dictators are capable of doing nice things from time to time. They have girlfriends, play with their dogs, go to their kid's baseball games (and execute the other team if they win). What I am saying is that Flemeth saves your life because it was her choice. Not because she was forced to do it by someone or something else.

Flemeth was acting against the Blight long before she decided to save the only two remaining Grey Wardens in Ferelden. She preserved the treaties, and in one of the books she warns Maric about the oncoming Blight. That's two actions against the Blight before it begins, and a third once it does. That's a pattern of behaviour, from someone who spends their life trying to avoid being found, except when she's looking for a Chasind man to father a child. So either she really loves Ferelden, and we know she doesn't, or she's scared of the Blight.

I'm not saying everyone acts out of self interest, but someone who does her best to avoid attracting attention and staying out of the way needs one hell of a motive to act as Flemeth did. And such a person would not be prone to spur of the moment decisions. From what we know of her, self interest is the most likely, and the only one consistent with what we see of her.

[Kiln]

Morrigan is alright once you break the barrier she's put up down some. I will admit though that most of the dialogue from the game is much better than Morrigan's. Alistair and Oghren are probably my favorites.

[SubRosa]

Yesterday I found this mod, which speeds up all the bow talents to regular speed. I have not tested it with all of them yet, but I did test with Pinning Shot, Shattering Shot, Critical Shot, Aim, and Defensive Fire, and it works on those. That alone goes a long way to making an archer viable. I have found that archery works well for me now. Banba is now the biggest damage dealer of the party (barely). The combo of Cone of Cold and Critical Shot is a great instant kill on non-boss enemies.

I also updated the game to 1.05 a few days ago. I did not even realize that there was a 1.05. I am so used to games telling you there is an update, if not applying it all on their own, that I just figured the Ultimate Edition was the final version. It fixed some bugs I did not realize I had with the DLC that came with the game, like them not authorizing. It also fixed an issue where it crashed when I tried to use the Return to Ostagar DLC. So for you users of the Ultimate Edition on PC, be sure you manually patch the game to 1.05.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Jan 9 2014, 12:45 AM

[SubRosa]

I was watching Monk today, and I instantly recognized the voice of the bad guy. It was the Steve Valentine, the actor who plays Alistar. He was the Great Torini, in Mr. Monk and the Magician.

[Acadian]

^ That's neat when something like that happens!

[SubRosa]

I played some more Dragon Age again yesterday. This time out I created January. An Elf did not look right for her in this game, so I made her a Human. She is a Warrior, since there are no Monks or Paladins. This meant I did the Human Noble origin for the first time. It was interesting. One thing I like about DA:O is the origins. They give a unique story for characters of each race. The only one I have not done now is the Dwarf Commoner origin.

Of course the downside is that to do that there are only 3 races, and 3 classes to choose from. Plus you have your character's history forced on you by the game. Rather than something you can roleplay for yourself. It is one of those core differences in the two types of RPGS: One kind tells you a story, the other lets you tell your own story. Bioware typically makes the first kind.

I downloaded a couple of weapon and armor mods. But I don't think I will use them after all. This game is so old it wants the dvd in the drive to play it. Which got annoying. I did not want to use a no cd crack. So I found the game on Gog for just $4.99. They are having a Harvest Sale. So I bought it. It came with all the extras my Ultimate Edition dvd has, plus some more micro dlcs that add more items. So I am probably just going to use some of those dlc items.

I started January out as a two-handed weapon user. In DA:O you have 3 basic options for a melee fighter - Sword and Shield, Dual Wield, and 2 Handed. The 2 Handed attacks are slow however. So I switched it up to experiment with a Dual Wielder instead. I don't see January as a Sword and Boarder in this game. She is both a heavy hitter and defender.

But Renee's pics keep making me want to play Fallout 3 again too. So I might hold off on playing more.

[TheCheshireKhajiit]

I played some more Dragon Age again yesterday. This time out I created January. An Elf did not look right for her in this game, so I made her a Human. She is a Warrior, since there are no Monks or Paladins. This meant I did the Human Noble origin for the first time. It was interesting. One thing I like about DA:O is the origins. They give a unique story for characters of each race. The only one I have not done now is the Dwarf Commoner origin.

Of course the downside is that to do that there are only 3 races, and 3 classes to choose from. Plus you have your character's history forced on you by the game. Rather than something you can roleplay for yourself. It is one of those core differences in the two types of RPGS: One kind tells you a story, the other lets you tell your own story. Bioware typically makes the first kind.

I downloaded a couple of weapon and armor mods. But I don't think I will use them after all. This game is so old it wants the dvd in the drive to play it. Which got annoying. I did not want to use a no cd crack. So I found the game on Gog for just $4.99. They are having a Harvest Sale. So I bought it. It came with all the extras my Ultimate Edition dvd has, plus some more micro dlcs that add more items. So I am probably just going to use some of those dlc items.

I started January out as a two-handed weapon user. In DA:O you have 3 basic options for a melee fighter - Sword and Shield, Dual Wield, and 2 Handed. The 2 Handed attacks are slow however. So I switched it up to experiment with a Dual Wielder instead. I don't see January as a Sword and Boarder in this game. She is both a heavy hitter and defender.

But Renee's pics keep making me want to play Fallout 3 again too. So I might hold off on playing more.

So would you be going for Templar for your “subclass”? Alternatively you could do mage and go Arcane Warrior?