Chorrol Parliament, Be civil please.. Options

[Channler]

Ok....

Why?
USA is not perfect.

Correct! But neither is any one country in the world. Comparing USA to China is like comparing watermelons to cantalopes (I think thats what their called.. ) however comparing the US to the UK is like comparing a watermelon and a grapefruit.

They are all fruit.. But some are much bigger and different then the others. Population make ups are so different that it is unfair to compare them. Some of our corporations are richer then most african countries combined.. what does that tell you?

I think you didn't understand my point.They will provide you only if you're willing to work or take education.OR if you're sick and unable to work.
Now telling me that a country with such capacityes as USA can't temporarily provide money to those who can't make it at the moment......I'm not convinced.
There is an old chinese saying:
''Give a man a fish,and you fed him for one day.Teach a man how to catch a fish,and you fed him for his whole life.''
In modernt terms it would be:Give me money and i'll have money for one day.Teach me how to make money and i'll have money for a lifetime.

USA should be able to provide poor people education and some money while they're at school ,and make them capable to work.Or find them a job,which is even better.
Country gives you money when you need it.But when you start working,you will actualy return that money to the state via taxes you can now pay wink.gif

Yes, temporarily we can provide aid. And that is exactly what it should be used for. One blow can severly cripple your family, I know. I've been there. However there are many people that take advantage of this system, and it happens in every free enviroment. People that won't work and have children just so they get more money.. and my tax money goes to supporting them! I hate that thought.

And the old chinese proverb is wonderous too. But people (in America) nowadays are either A) wanna live the thug, white trash, and bum life Are to conservative and believe in their own superiority, and C) Liberals that think we should give alot more to group A) We have free "forced" education untill your 16, then you can decide if you want to stick with it or not. However, in my school alone 1/3 of my entire class is not expected to graduate. Why? Is it because welfare? No it is because of the decay of moral society and affirmative action.

Bottom line is that people are growing lazy and are looking for handouts. When the US stopped providing aid to Tawian their economy BOOMED. Why? Because it was either become a part of China, or work your boat off and become independent. Their ecomony and way of life was stagnant because they didn't have to do anything! The US was providing all the cash for it!

I admire that.
But i think that the state should have helped them.
At least provided them with a decent place to stay.
And i don't mean shalter!
I mean a decent small apartment.

Err.. Shelter doesn't always mean like a tin shack or something. A homeless shelter generally is a fairly decent place with showers and bathrooms and of course cooking areas.

Yes indeed.The way i was told,USA is great in some things,but it's horrible for something else.Homeless disscusion is a good example here.

For example my cousin (who lives and works in USA),tells me that you can make good money in the states,but if you get sick you're in big trouble.The hospital prices are huge,and his health insurance can't cover that (he says he has a good health ensurance).Maybe you as an American can tell me mre about this subject?

I would agree for you their. Medical care is incredibly expensive here.. But do you know why? Its because your have these NO CLASS citizens that will sue a doctor because they believe something went wrong! So a doctor needs 9+ years of training to find it safe to practice. But after nine years of school (and school bills) wouldn't you expect a little pay-up? And what about that emergency fund incase a person decides to sue you for reasons you can't stop? Who do I blame? The idiots that let court cases like that win. And that usually happens to be pro-liberal judges.

There is no winning.. I'm loosing faith. Maybe I should become a monk or something.. at least they won't tell me how GWB looks like a monkey.

[HyPN0]

Correct! But neither is any one country in the world. Comparing USA to China is like comparing watermelons to cantalopes (I think thats what their called.. ) however comparing the US to the UK is like comparing a watermelon and a grapefruit.

They are all fruit.. But some are much bigger and different then the others. Population make ups are so different that it is unfair to compare them. Some of our corporations are richer then most african countries combined.. what does that tell you?

It tells me that USA is a very rich and populated country.
But i already knew that

Yes, temporarily we can provide aid. And that is exactly what it should be used for. One blow can severly cripple your family, I know. I've been there. However there are many people that take advantage of this system, and it happens in every free enviroment. People that won't work and have children just so they get more money.. and my tax money goes to supporting them! I hate that thought.

I second all that.
More childern for more money?
I'm speechless!

And the old chinese proverb is wonderous too. But people (in America) nowadays are either A) wanna live the thug, white trash, and bum life Are to conservative and believe in their own superiority, and C) Liberals that think we should give alot more to group A) We have free "forced" education untill your 16, then you can decide if you want to stick with it or not. However, in my school alone 1/3 of my entire class is not expected to graduate. Why? Is it because welfare? No it is because of the decay of moral society and affirmative action.

Well,that's another issue.A moral issue,that is needless to say,completly wrong.
It's on country to help those who need social help,and not to help those who abuse it.

In the Neds it's quite simple:They give you an offer to work.You refuse.You can get two more oportunitys and if you refuse them too,you lose your social help.The country doesn't want to stimaulate people to be lazy bums

Offcourse there are ''witty'' people who know how to bypass the system and get the social help.They are mostly just playing sick.But look at it this way:You get 800 Euro\per month with social help.That's enough for food,a small apartment,hygiene and some clothes.Something of a minimum that human being needs.But those who work,can buy themselves a lot more.They can make Bank loans,they can buy apartments,cars,go on vacations etc. So if you ask me,it's better to have a job than be unemployed

Err.. Shelter doesn't always mean like a tin shack or something. A homeless shelter generally is a fairly decent place with showers and bathrooms and of course cooking areas.

Sorry.I have no idea how do shelters in USA look like.O\I just imagined the ones in my country.

I would agree for you their. Medical care is incredibly expensive here.. But do you know why? Its because your have these NO CLASS citizens that will sue a doctor because they believe something went wrong! So a doctor needs 9+ years of training to find it safe to practice. But after nine years of school (and school bills) wouldn't you expect a little pay-up? And what about that emergency fund incase a person decides to sue you for reasons you can't stop? Who do I blame? The idiots that let court cases like that win. And that usually happens to be pro-liberal judges.

IMHO that's not an excuse.What if some average class man who works hard gets sick?Like he needs a heart surgery or such,and his ensurance doesn't cover that?
How come that here in the Neds health insurance isn't that high,and people are protected from everything?People can sue doctors here too.I didn't think that's the reason.

There is no winning.. I'm loosing faith. Maybe I should become a monk or something.. at least they won't tell me how GWB looks like a monkey.

This post has been edited by HyPN0: May 10 2006, 01:02 PM

[Foster]

Offcourse there are ''witty'' people who know how to bypass the system and get the social help.They are mostly just playing sick.But look at it this way:You get 800 Euro\per month with social help.That's enough for food,a small apartment,hygiene and some clothes.Something of a minimum that human being needs.But those who work,can buy themselves a lot more.They can make Bank loans,they can buy apartments,cars,go on vacations etc. So if you ask me,it's better to have a job than be unemployed

That depends on what your job is. For example, if you have three children, are considered unable to work due to disability, and have no qualifications, then you get more money than if you work. Because as well as having free accomodation supplied by the counsil, you also have child welfare allowance, disability benefit and tax exemptions/reductions, as well as food coupons.

If however you worked at minimum wage (quite often the only job these workshy school dropouts can get), you wouldn't be exempt from taxation and a lot of the other benefits would vanish.

I know of a person that doesn't work, does this, and goes on holiday to Cancun every year (in fact he goes scuba diving). I also don't know a person on benefit that doesn't own a car. I also don't think that bank loans are a particularly good gauge, considering being employed doesn't automatically make you elligible or able to provide collateral.


On another thought, it's impossible in practical terms to compare the US and the UK systems, for three very very strong reasons:

1) In the UK healthcare is free, paid by tax and National Insurence (social security) contributions. There is no requirement for insurence. There is no need to be employed to have healthcare.
2) The US and UK pension systems are totally different.
3) The US employment law is, in my opinion, awful compared to the UK. In the UK you can't just say "I quit" and leave; similarly your employer can't just fire you on a whim.

[HyPN0]

Well that depends from country to country,we'll all agree on that.

So it doesn't pay of to work at all if you have 3 kids in UK?
They can go to vacations?
Have (decent) cars?
Are there any real benefits of working in the UK?
For example,can you buy an apartment (or flat,how you call it ) with social help?I'm asking on monthly loan offcourse.

[Foster]

Well, you're caught in a trap. If you're smart enough to stay in school, you don't get to live the smart life because you're able to get a decent job according to the government, which means you don't get all this (except possibly the counsil housing). You also get to live in a nicer area, I suppose. Social help is available due to income assessment. If you're poor, you get help. Yet of course the 'poorest' are the people that drop out of school and don't work.

Of course the REALLY smart thing to do in the UK is to take a vocational course. Screw going to Uni - become a plumber. There is such a shortage of them currently (50,000 needed) that they get paid far more than most professionals.

[Ibis]

I also have always been outraged by the people who have more & more children just to get welfare. Whatever they currently want to call it = it's welfare, paid for by the workers' taxes.

Not only are these people greedy and lazy, but they are quite often, the worst of parents. They hardly clothe their children, feed them cheap stuff all the time like cereal for dinner, hot dogs, macaroni n cheese, etc. while they are getting government money to provide for their children. I think this is the way they can afford exotic vacations. They skimp on the care of the children for their own desires.

And not only is the parenting bad - some of these poor kids only exist by eating the school-breakfast & school-lunch programs - but the whole system has really destroyed the morals of our country in the US. They do not give money to whole families, no - they reward the unwed mothers with a way of life to just keep having more and more illigitimate children and receive more and more benefits and tax-supplied government money. The breakdown of the family unit, the higher divorce rate, some of these trends are related to this stupid welfare program.

[Channler]

IMHO that's not an excuse.What if some average class man who works hard gets sick?Like he needs a heart surgery or such,and his ensurance doesn't cover that?
How come that here in the Neds health insurance isn't that high,and people are protected from everything?People can sue doctors here too.I didn't think that's the reason.

Well see.. If I'm not mistaken, if a person cannot afford the cost of the surgery (or whatnot.. treatment) they still get the solution, the cure. It isn't denied to them. However, they are mailed a bill.

To many people try to use the system, but thats just a flaw we have as humans

[HyPN0]

Of course the REALLY smart thing to do in the UK is to take a vocational course. Screw going to Uni - become a plumber. There is such a shortage of them currently (50,000 needed) that they get paid far more than most professionals.

What do you mean by 'prefessionals''?
Highly educated people?
Does a plumber get a biger paycheck than, for example, a shrink?

Well see.. If I'm not mistaken, if a person cannot afford the cost of the surgery (or whatnot.. treatment) they still get the solution, the cure. It isn't denied to them. However, they are mailed a bill.

To many people try to use the system, but thats just a flaw we have as humans

But what if surgery is absolutly necessary and it costs a lot?
Insurance won't cover that?

[Foster]

What do you mean by 'prefessionals''?
Highly educated people?
Does a plumber get a biger paycheck than, for example, a shrink?

That would depend on how experienced the shrink is, if the shrink is in private practice or in a hospital... a host of factors.

A plumber can easily earn 50,000 a year. A Pharmacist or Doctor in a hospital are looking at starting around the 25,000 mark (a pharmaicst in community around 33,000). An officer in the military, again around 25,000. A lawyer would need to do more school, and even then won't be approaching 50,000.

So in theory, yes, a plumber can earn more.

[HyPN0]

A plumber can easily earn 50,000 a year. A Pharmacist or Doctor in a hospital are looking at starting around the 25,000 mark (a pharmaicst in community around 33,000).  An officer in the military, again around 25,000. A lawyer would need to do more school, and even then won't be approaching 50,000.

So in theory, yes, a plumber can earn more.

Wow,that's quite a lot. You're talking GB Pounds right?
Is there a diffrence betwen working hours per week?
Does a plumber work more than people with jobs you mentioned?

[Foster]

Probably not. Everyone is looking at around 37.5 hours a week.

And yes, that's in Pounds.

This post has been edited by Foster: May 10 2006, 05:23 PM

[Foster]

Seeing this is about politics and all, I was wondering what peoples' stance was on fringe politics. For example, I would cite the BNP (that is the British National Party, though most people say they are Nazis). They are a strongly right wing party that has constant allegations of race hate, and holocaust denial. In their manifesto they say that parents should be able to vote on if homosexuality should be taught as acceptable or not, and they want only one school meal - banning Halal and Kosher meals (they say it's barbaric).

Anyway, the reason I bring it up is that they're back in the press, as always, being rather publicity hungry. They won a few (nowhere NEAR the amount the main parties won) seats, and they're saying all kinds of stuff now. The student union is always pushing stuff through my door about how we should ban the BNP and condemn them etc. Now, I don't support the BNP, or their politics (personally I think their policies are stupid, and I don't really believe that they don't have serious national socialist leanings). I don't like the way that they campaign by commenting (in fairness, quite often truthfully) on passages in the Koran, and the history of Islam and saying how it's an evil religion. Basically I don't like 'em. But... I live in a democracy with free speech. So I also don't think that anyone has a right to try and stop them from saying their opinions - even the hipocrites that cite freedom of speech as their right to campaign to try and stop the BNP.

So really, does a democracy have the right to ban an alleged group of Nazi Hatemongers, if they haven't broken the law? Where does freedom of speech end, and the right to protect citizens against harmful distortions and rhetoric begin?

[Channler]

Incredibly well thought question.

Democracy has its problems, and a lot of them are unsolvable. That right there depends upon the people choice.

Its like burning a American flag.. I think you should be hung if you do that. However, its a form of protest.. so they say. Thats not protest, thats disreguarding the emblem of our nation.

But hey, I'm the evil man cause I want to take away your FREE money..

[Ibis]

That is a good question about how should a democracy deal with a hate-monger group who are not actually breaking the law. Sometimes they must be monitored or stopped from having a public meeting due to the violence it will incur.

Recently there was a Nazi/KKK type skinhead group who planned a rally and march right through the main street of a well known depressed black district that recently has been getting tax money spent there to improve things.
The police went around and distributed flyers and told all the residents of that district not to use that street or go near it during the hours of the skinhead march. So that they had their rally but it was quite lame because they really staged it there to stir up trouble and there was none.

[Pisces]

Its not that complex. You have complete freedom to do anything but crunch on someone else's freedom, everyone has the right not to be victim of any sort of assualt including verbal. So a NAZI party can say all these things in their own quarter (and they also have a right to form a party) but when they purposely attempt to intimidate other people as in Ibis's example is indeed breaking the law though it is not a law commonly inforced in democracies.

Germany has a 5% threshold in their MMP elections because they didn't want their own NAZI party being represented.

Its like burning a American flag.. I think you should be hung if you do that. However, its a form of protest.. so they say. Thats not protest, thats disreguarding the emblem of our nation.

No offense but I find this quite disturbing. Nationalism has connotations of hate, prejudgice and ignorance for me, and was the most common tool used by political leaders to enforce oppression. What else does a national emblem do? Pay tribute to the people who gave their lives for their nation? I don't think so! You might think about the victories but not the blood which was shed in often oppressive wars.

This post has been edited by Pisces: May 11 2006, 07:55 AM

[Olav]

Its like burning a American flag.. I think you should be hung if you do that.

Hehe... well I also find this a bit... maybe not disturbing, but a bad case of overreacting.

I know Americans are very patriotic and all that, but a flag is just a piece of cloth. I know, I know... It's the symbol of your country, but it's still a piece of cloth. The real country - and what you should be saluting - is its citizens and their achievements and the people who built/is building the country.

'Hanging' is acceptable (in my book) for deliberately killing innocent people and abusing children, not for burning cloth.

If someone burns your flag, simply turn the other cheek and raise a new flag. Wars have probably been started by people getting angry about flagburning. If noone got angry with flagburning, there would be no more flagburning, simple as that.

[Neela]

As far as flag burning goes... I get more upset by it when its done by a fellow American. America is by far and large of land of many differing opinions, none of them are anymore valid than another. When I see an American burning the flag because they don't believe in one or more policies I tend to think very little of that person's side of the fight. To me they are the ones willing to trash an icon of their own country for their single minded purpose.

As far as seeing others in other countries burning our flag... It doesn't upset me at all. Most of those that are doing it are doing it for no other reason than they think it will upset us. They generally have no idea whatsoever about this country and how it operates beyond their own narrow view of things they have been manipulated to believe.


On another topic though, which I want to throw out there before I head off to work.

Todays main headlines appear to be that of the NSA keeping a database of phone records on millions of telephone calls. Mind you these are not actual recorded conversations, but just which number called which.

I want to hear what others have to think about this? I for one seem to be in the far minority in thinking that its perfectly fine. I mean it is the NSA... It is doing exactly what it was established to do. I hear alot about its an invasion of privacy, but I would like to know exactly how it is? I also would like to hear what you feel the governments other options are then for keeping us safe from terrorist attacks if we take away any power for them to monitor for terrorsists BEFORE they attack.

This post has been edited by Neela: May 11 2006, 07:20 PM

[HyPN0]

Burning Flags?
American Flags?
Well, I saw a lot of that back in 1999, when we were under bombardment from USA.
To be completly honest, back then i hated USA, and everything related to USA. Especialy their pilots. My father went fighting on Kosovo against Albanians, and i wasn't afraid than he will die from an Albanian bullet, I was afraid he will get wiped with an USA missile. Those were tough times back then when Americans were ''saving'' us from Slobodan Milošević. Hmph. ''Mercyful Angel'' was a code name of the operation. I don't know what's so mercyful in destroying two blocks of civilian buildings and call it ''collateral damage''.
This I can forgive, but i can never forget. Never
Sorry, I'm rambling


Now, I don't make such a big deal when it comes to burning flags or something similar. There will be always such idiots who will burn their own country flag, and it's best not to pay much attention to it. I also don't think it should be punishable by law IF the goverment is informed in suuh an act, and demonstrations are alowed. Here in the Neds I hear that you can organise a protest, inform the goverment who will inform citizens that the protest will make place in x place, in x time, and that the traffic will be blocked. I can't confirm this, my friend told me, and if he lied to me, then I'm lying to you now.

This post has been edited by HyPN0: May 12 2006, 12:48 AM

[Channler]

Nationalism is not bad. Please disreguard the idea that it is.

Communism is not bad either. Neither is a dictatorship. What we make of it creates if it is to be considered bad.

The flag is much more then a peice of clothe. Each bit of the flag means something.

Do you know what the American flag stands for?  Well the American  Flag stands for courage, camaraderie, safety and protection.  Also the flag expresses patriotism and love of the country. Did you know that the colors on our flag stand for something? White stands for purity and innocence. Red stands for hardiness and valor. Last but not least, blue stands for vigilance, perseverance and justice.  The stars on the American Flag stand for heaven and divine. The stripes mean rays of light emanating from the sun. The flag also stands for something else. The flag stands for hope, beliefs and accomplishments of our nation.

The flag does not tell us that we are perfect. But, the flag tells us we must always strive to be perfect.

That sums it up. The flag is a representation of our values, what we as a country are supposed to stand for. John Proctor said it well in Arthur Miller's, The Crucible.

How may I live without my name? I have given you my soul; leave me my name!

His name was his identity, his flag. Without out it he wouldn't be John Proctor. It was his facet to the people.

You might believe I go far with it, but only in thought do any emotions play the meaning of the flag. So the "clothe" is the visual representation of those glorius ideals. Burning them is to burn the very doctrine you rest on!

As a future member of the United States Military, it will be my sworn duty to uphold and protect that flag and what it stands for. Now, as a Staff Seargent in NC933 AFJROTC my duty is to attend to support those that now uphold it.

Forgive my passionate arguement, but how comes we are in the wrong when a few Mexican protesters recently burnt an American flag, and then in retribution, members of a very pro-american group burnt a Mexican flag, and now the latter faces court orders?

[HyPN0]

Nationalism is not bad. Please disreguard the idea that it is.

Don't you mean Patriotism?

Communism is not bad either. Neither is a dictatorship. What we make of it creates if it is to be considered bad.

I don't know who exactly said this, but someone with political University should recognise this sentence. He was the greatest enemy of communism.
''In theory, Communism is the best social system, but it's realisation leeds to doom''
Very well said.