If you had your pick of worshipping any Daedra or Aedra, no matter how large or small they were, which would it be? I also apologize if this thread has been made before.
Mine would be a tie between Meridia, Azura and Mara.
Hircine. I'd hunt in his name, and when I die, I want to go to his hunting grounds. Being a werewolf would be epic.
I wanna change my answer. I would probably circle through all of them to find which one I like most, then pick none of them XD
Sheogorath, no question about it. Or failing that, Sanguine; it's hard to resist the allure of the Lord of Par-TAAAAY!! after all.
Ah, definitly Mara, for her healing love.
And I would pray to Dibella. I'm not pretty in real-life, and I don't wanna be a fashion model or anything, but I would pray to Dibella for a little help every now and again.
I might work with Azura. The game just tells us that she is a goddess of sunrise and sunset, but never goes into detail about what that actually means. When I put my knowledge symbolism and comparative religions to that, it it leads me to focus on how these times are moments of transition. It is a time when it is neither day, nor night, and the world hangs between these two states. That makes me think of Azura as a goddess of transitional states, who guides people who are moving from one phase in their life to another. Such as going from childhood to adulthood (being a teen is so much fun!), or going to student to worker, or single to married, married to single, etc...
Also I imagine that people who walk between worlds in other ways would follow her as well. Transgendered people are kind of obvious here, as to a lesser extent gay folks. Likewise magicians, as IRL, all magicians are edgewalkers, who live with one foot in the mundane world, and one foot in the spirit world. To do magic, you must be able to step back and forth between them just as easily as we might step from the kitchen to the dining room. Beyond that, anyone who for one reason or another does not fit into "ordinary" society.
Because of that, I tend to picture her as being similar to IRL Hekate, who is also a goddess of transitional states. Although Hekate is a goddess of the New Moon, rather than dawn and dusk. However, the New Moon is a similar phenomena. It is a time when the moon is not seen to be there, but rather is suspended in a limbo between death and rebirth. Hekate rules over these places in between, when one is not one thing or another, but waiting to be born anew.
In the games we also see Azura often being associated with prophecies. The prophecy of Nerevar's Return, her warning the Dunmer of the impending eruption of Red Mountain... That also tends to reinforce my connecting her with Hekate, who is also called Antaia, the sender of nocturnal visions.
Given that I am dedicated to Hekate IRL, it would not surprise me that I would do the same with Azura. Assuming that my above suppositions are correct.
That of course does mean I would give the finger to the other deities out there. I am a happy polytheist. One can never have enough goddesses and gods. I would work with whatever deity was suitable to whatever circumstances I found myself in. If I needed wisdom I would look to Julianos. If I needed the spirit to fight, then Trinimac. A good lay - Dibella. And so on.
Molag Bal. I think he would be the ideal prince I would worship. In such a chaotic world of Tamriel, where it is also known as "The Arena,", Molag Bal would one of the princes I would prostrate myself. When people think of Molag Bal, they automatically label him as the ultimate baddie. But there is a much more deeper sense to it that goes if you read the dialogue.
If I lived in Tamriel, I would surely be looking for ways to improve myself. And as a place known as "The Arena," there is only one way to do so. Through the use of the bow, the sword, or the arcane arts, one takes the steps to improvement. How else do you level up?
"The weak would be punished by the strong."-Molag Bal.
In a cutthroat enviornment of Tamriel, strife and violence culls the weak, empowers the intermediate and lets the strong apt to survive and excel. Conflict seems to be the only way to mature and grow. I guess even the Empire grew through force of arms. And Molag Bal represents power and domination, among other things. And power itself also comes from unrestrained emotions.
It's common knowledge that power comes from impulse and instinct, and thus, to achieve it, those who follow Molag are forged into the warriors by subjugating others and given into situations that force them to know their their true potential or die trying. Conflict is the only way to put an individual's ability to the test and the conflict and lock-of-horns forces one to evolve and become stronger for it. Without power, I guess one goes onto decline and stagnation, and thus proves he isn't worthy at all. Molag Bal is all about the survival of the fittest . . .and raping.
Besides, he is the patron of vampires. Imagine the ability to cheat death by actually dying and still living? To pass on the ages without every worrying about a wrinkle or two(discounting Oblivion). And the supernatural abilities granted? Sure, it's the ES universe and there are many life-altering conditions, but such a thing is tempting.
Seeing as others are doing detailed breakdowns of why they'd worship certain daedra, I figure I might as well give my full two pence and give a bit more detail about why my choice would be Sheogorath.
For a start, he's madness. What's that? He's the original, the unique, the unusual. He is flare, creativity and the spark which pushes us out of our comfort zones and gives us things that are truly brilliant. Like art, he is unpredictable, charming, terrifying and entralling, but he always, always has a distressingly clear insight into the mind. He challenges people to better themselves, to rethink their place in the world, to reject the stale and the dull and the normal in place of that which is new and different, regardless of whether it is good or bad (basically the entirety of my creative design brief behind Madgod[/shamelessplug]).
He rejects stagnation. In that, he's the ultimate incarnation of the Jungian Trickster Achetype; Coyote, Loki, Anansi and Prometheus all rolled into one. Yes, he may well turn you into a sweetroll, but at the same time he's just as likely to cure a ward full of cancer patients with a wave of his hand or shower a beggar with money. He is neither benevolent nor malevolent, neither good nor evil, but is simply so entrenched in his nature that you know exactly what you'll get with him and yet at the same time have no idea what you get with him. In the Shivering Isles, this idea is made all the stronger by his very nature; he's completely, utterly, frighteningly unhinged, and yet at the same time he's very, very hard not to love.
If we lived in Tamriel, then in my opinion, we'd be worshipping every daedra and god there is UNKNOWINGLY. Why?
I read someone say that Daedra Lords ARE their spheres. Thinking about it, I decided that I liked point pf view. Why? Because to me it made sense.
Dagon is the lord of Destruction. A fitting name for a baddie. But he's also the Lord of revolutions, energy, ambition, change. Think of it this way.
If a farmer looked to his old barn and decide that, yes, it is too old for his liking, he will CHANGE the old and replace with the new.
A rooftop has been struck with lightning. Too damaged beyond repair. Cast it (DESTROY) and replace (CHANGE) it with a new one.
A child dreams of becoming an army general. He must be AMBITIOUS enough to attain it. And ENERGETIC enough not to stagger under reality 's weight.
May not make sense to you guys, but datz becuz meh ingrish nat so gud.
Sanguine. Your usual God of Debauchery. They say he's also the god of passionate indulgences. What if that indulgence is... Art? Music? Swordsmanship? The more you indulge yourself, the more you worship him.
Just my opinion, take it for what it is.
And I'd worship Malacath. I love orcs, makes sense if I'd worship their god too.
For everything else, he is the All-Father to Men and Tamriel. It was he that conceived of the idea of a world and entities that were not a mere extension of himself.
As pointed put by Uleni, the Daedra are their spheres, the spheres are their Daedra.
The Aedra sacrificed parts of themselves. And so made something fundamentally beyond themselves. For all that the Daedra represent change and the Padomaic aspects of Aurbis, they are themselves unchanging.
Sheogorath, in his Madness, spoke of this, and how a change to the fundamental nature of a Daedric Prnce was a task of proportions that no Daedric Prince could accomplish on his own.
Shor does not acknowledge such things. In so far has he originated an idea no other could conceive, he, quite literally, fathered creation. And to do so, he invoked a moment of Inception upon the other Aedra. Magnus drew the plans and the architecture. But Magnus realized the Trap, knew it was not of himself, and that he would be changed by it, so he fled, and tore through Oblivion with his brethren to flee Shor's trap.
Akatosh also recognized the trap, and impacted into it to bring it order. And for his sacrifice, and his power, and his control, I would end up worshipping him, whether I was Man or Mer or Beast. But especially if I were Dov, for then it would be his power to shape reality that echoed from my lips.
But it is one thing to shape Reality. It is one thing to define it, to hold it, to be recognized as the one that stands highest within it.
It is quite another to Create Reality. To be the one that conceptualized it. To realize the potential of it. And to make something that is beyond yourself in order to bring it about.
And thus is Lorkhan the Spirit of Nirn, and truly deserving of the title All-Father. For our parents bring us into the world, screaming and wailing at the cold and the light and the sound, to know injuries and sickness and sadness and pain and suffering. Such is the crucible of life. But it is worth it. For their are joys to experience and wonders to amaze and knowledge to gain and wisdom to earn. And nothing with value comes free.
Shor promised us a journey, and that the reward on the other side would be ours to determine. It comes with a price. And so I would thank him and honor him for it. For existence is this, and no more.
I'm loving the answers to this thread.
Yeah, that's true.
Kinda sorta related, but I found Skyrim jewelry. I'd totally wear an Amulet of Mara. Only because no one in my podunk town would get it lol
hmm I dunno about Mara. I'm not sure I'd want to know about any secret crushes lurking about in my life! Some of the people whom I suspect....
...yea, I'd rather just not have those people (not that there's many of them) gushing after me.
Now Zenithar, hells yes. 10% cheaper prices? I would wear that bad boy and never take it off. I wouldn't just wear it to Safeway and Zales and Home Depot, I would take my Amulet of Zenithar to my local gas & electric company. Complain matter-of-factly about my rates. BAM 10% cheaper bills there. I'd wear it to Bank of America's credit card division BAM 10% cheaper bills.
I would be able to afford a new computer for PC gaming in no time!
Ah I see. Thanks, SR. I am learning as I go.
I like to think LHM is an expert on this stuff, so whenver I come to a term about the Aedra or Daedra that I dont' know, I go ahead and look it up on UESP or one of the Wiki sites. But I don't know as much as I'd like to yet.
Check out the Imperial Library. They have a collection of Michael Kirkbride's (the guy that wrote up a lot of the back-lore and the equivalent of the Elder Scrolls Metaphysicist-in-Chief) posts on the Aedra, the Daedra, their nature, and their relationships with Tamriel and Mundus.
Good way to kill a weekend. And an even better way to write some strange things into your stories while being able to claim that the world building is, in fact, attributable canon.
Oh yeah, the guy who the Elder Scrolls lore apes worship as their god? Yeah, I heard of him. Too much.
Thanks, Hammer. I will probably check that out if it gets slow at work. During weekends, if I'm not busy with RL stuff, I'm gaming or watching Xfiles re-runs. I rarely read for an entire weekend like I used to
I completely forgot about the imperial library. I'm gonna need to check it out soon.
Because he tends to get largely overlooked despite knowing a damned sight more than everyone in the room... ...
He's my fave...*Applauds*...
Definitely Kyne. I chose to study environmental biology in college, and my proudest work was in that field. My favorite place to be is between the ocean and the sky. The goddess of the Storm would be a natural fit for me.
In Oblivion/KotN I was disappointed by Kynareth’s “Let the bear eat you” test. Everything I know about nature tells me that a worthy member of the predator faction (given by wearing the reward for not fighting the bear) would defend themself rather than turtle up or just stand there. Not necessarily kill the guardian bear, but at the least try to defeat it. I get that the character is supposed to show humility, but that does not ring true to what a nature deity would value in my experience. So Kyne’s Sacred Trials in Skyrim sealed the deal for me.
I still think that defeating a guardian spirit (in the Skyrim Trials) should let you summon its animal as a familiar. That would be neat.
That said, the Skaal’s notion of the All-Maker also has a lot of appeal to me.
Hmm. A second thought would be to worship Hircine. The important thing is one must think what happens when they crossover. Or if they crossover. Going for the Lord of the Hunt seems a better fit than being a victim of sodomy in Coldharbour for an eternity with Molag Bal as a cellmate. Doing some research, it would appear that Hircine is inspired by the pagan Horned god and also a bit of Native American beliefs.
First, about the afterlife. We hear about the Hunting Grounds in ES as a place where animals are hunted just as well as people. Where creatures are twice the size of what they appear in Nirn and there is a large abundance of lycanthropes. Doesn't sound too pleasant if the individual is not a devout worshiper of Hircine. But to those who serve him, or are lycanthropes, some may see it as paradise much like the tribes of American Natives.
"Upon death, werewolves are claimed by Hircine for his Hunting Grounds. For some, this is a paradise. They want nothing more than to chase prey with their master for eternity. And that is their choice."-Kodlak.
"The happy hunting ground was the name given to the concept of the afterlife by several of the great plains Native American tribes, including the Oglala Lakota. It is an afterlife conceived of as a paradise in which hunting is plentiful and game unlimited. The name Happy Hunting Ground indicates the characteristics of this particular Native American afterlife tradition: the Happy Hunting Ground resembled the living world, but with much better weather and animals such as rabbit, deer and buffalo that were both plentiful and easy to hunt."
It occurs to me that The Hunting Grounds different greatly from the other Daedric realms. There is certainly no civilization or man-made constructs. Coldharbour we see buildings, same as Dagon’s Deadlands, and the Shivering Isles which has cities and towns Hircine’s realm, from what we’ve seen in Infernal City, is just one big realm with a giant forest, a great savannah and plains and tributaries and canyons. A huge wilderness. A wilderness full of lycanthropes and beasts that is much alike our African savannah and the different geography of our world before a time where technology and civilization came to be. While Tamriel grows and somewhat evolves, the Hunting Grounds, by Hircine’s will, remains the same. Wild, free, untamed and savage.
I’ve always came to the conclusion that Bethesda borrowed Native American and Celtic lore and imbued it with Hircine who is like the pagan Horned god and Herne the Hunter. In common Wiccan belief, the Horned god is associated with nature, wilderness, sexuality, hunting and the life cycle. Hircine is associated with both the wilderness and the hunt, and some sexuality is also involved, too, as he is said to take the aspect of a Great Stag to transform women into hinds and mate with them.
From the Totems to Spirit of the Wolf and other elements that come into play. When ESO’s beta came out, my belief was further reinforced. I find Hircine’s religion particularly interesting as those who worship him seek to distance themselves from society and embrace nature as a whole. It is no coincidence that the Glenmoril Witches also see the same.
“Among those of us to whom Lord Hircine bestowed his most precious gift of Lycanthropy, there are legends that he also set into the world specific artifacts of his power. They date to a period when men could neither write, nor speak, nor barely think,While werewolves give up the powers of magic known to men, we can tap into a more direct natural energy at times, and through these totems, discover the abilities that first tamed the world before wrought civilization sullied it.”-Totems of Hircine
"It is the will of Hircine that the Bosmer become as we were in the Dawn Age. Before Y’ffre trapped us in a single shape, before he told us our story and took away our freedom. Rise up and reject the tyranny of shape and story!”-Blessings of Lord Hircine.
"The Glenmoril Wyrd . . . Their preference for life in the wilderness means their covens are usually located far from the agricultural or pastoral enclaves of "civilized" people, which contributes to the lack of understanding of their true natures. This has led to the Glenmoril covens nearly always being described in terms such as uncanny, reclusive, dangerous, inimical, and evil.
In fact, the Glenmoril Wyrd are all of these things—except, I would argue, evil. It is true that they are unswervingly committed to a rejection of civilization and civilized ways; it is true they admit no male members to their covens; it is true they regard themselves as enforcers of certain "laws of nature" which only they recognize. This does not make them evil, just strict adherents to moral codes that are different from our own."
As in Native American belief(though not limited to), animal totems are used as symbols in shamanistic rituals and customs and lifestyle. Much like them, werewolves in ES lore also revere the Totems of Hircine, which are five that also related to the five aspects of Hircine.
"You may meet the Hunter, who is invoked as Alrabeg. He bears the Spear of Bitter Mercy. He comes here from the Hunting Grounds to hunt new prey, or he brings prey native to the Hunting Grounds, like the Unicorn, to hunt in new forests. If he brings not prey, then woe betide you who meet him, for he may dub you the Hare. Then you must flee as best you can, though you will not escape.
“You may meet the Manbeast, who is invoked as Storihbeg. He wears the Wolf Skull Totem and his growl is like a landslide in the Karth Gorge. He comes here to hunt with his children the Skinshifters, or to adopt new children and turn them pelt-side-out. His howl will freeze your inwards like a pond in Evening Star at midnight—you will see your death approach, but be unable to flee.
“You may meet the Great Stag, who is invoked as Uricanbeg, and whose hooves drum the Blood Summons. He comes to mate with the hinds, and may transform a comely woman for that purpose, or to cull the herd of the weak. Those who hear his drumbeat are doomed to run with the herd, and may follow him back to the Hunting Grounds where they will be chased and unmade.”
“You may meet the Quick Fox, who is invoked as Gulibeg, and who wields the Wand of Bone. He comes here to confound mortal hunters, to run them in circles until they are so plexed and wildered that they follow him over a cliff or into a trackless mire. He may fill you with such fury you can do naught but pursue him, or he may note you as clever and teach you his tricks.
“You may meet the Mighty Bear, who is invoked as Hrokkibeg. He embodies the Totem of Claw and Fang, and comes here seeking solitude, peace from labors, and renewal of the Burning Spirit Within. Beware, for if you rouse him and disturb his serenity you will be torn asunder. But if you approach him with deference and an offering of honey-sweet mead, he may grant you the power of the Bear-Heart in your next fight."
Since my great great great grandparents were actually real life natives of an Amazonian tribe, and being in love with nature, hunting, and of course, werewolves . . . I can definitely say I wouldn't mind worshiping Hircine and spending an eternity running naked in the Hunting Grounds as a man or a man trapped in the form of a wolf and forget what civilization means by going back to the roots of mankind. As long as I'm not the one being hunted
I´d pick no one. Why can´t they worship me?
In Skyrim, like the other TES worlds, the Aedra don't actually do anything in the world-space. They already did everything they intend to, by creating it in the first place. The Daedra, on the other hand are directly interfering, and rather powerful when they do so. So I'd probably worship all of them, just to play safe.
Once I'd had some direct contact, I might revise my opinions on whether they warranted worship, and stop if it was prudent to do so. I might also form the impression that some Daedra would prefer an adversarial position. Sheogorath isn't going to let any mortal understand what he wants, so why try?
^No, daedra reflect's god's in our life. They do nothing, and they don't give a [censored] about their worshippers. Even if they look different from each other, daedric god's aren't even gods. They're just horribly powerful and are almost same as gods. The divines couldn't destroy them.
They do not help mortals, from evil daedra's deeds. They don't protect your soul after daedra has taken it, or sithis or any of them.
It's like in real life. You choose to act good, to build everything yourself, without any help from gods. Or you can worship evil, and if your god is evil, that doesn't mean he will act good with you after your death. Because nothing can change them.
Btw, no matter how good a daedra may look, they are all evil. Even azura, which is pretty evil. All of them want's mortals to act in favor for them.
Divines ask's to live peacefuly, and be good to everyone. When daedra asks to do things, that are worth something only for the prince itself. They're selfish.
Id never worship any of the daedra except for Azura and maybe Meridia, the rest have too much power for Tamriel's good, IMO. That may sound stupid but I've done enough daedric quests to know what happens to their followers. Follow some for even a bit and they could seriously screw you over. The Aedra, although they gave most f their power to create Nirn, still have some power in Nirn. Examples of this are the shrine blessings, the avatar of Akatosh in oblivion, wulf in morrowind etc...
I know this is in the Skyrim section and my perspective is primarily from Oblivion. . . . That said, Buffy's always been torn between Mara, Kynareth and Azura.
She was raised in the city of Mara, and love is a very very important part of her life. She often manifests love for her friends the same way a mother grizzly manifests love for her cubs when they are endangered - so she does not consider Mara a pacifist. She also considers the Mother Goddess of Fertility responsible for everything that grows from the ground, from crops to forests.
Speaking of forests, she is ever so comfortable in them and with their creatures of Kynareth and under Kynareth's sky. And the old paladin within her was once a knight of Kyne.
Regarding Azura, Buffy was impressed at her concern for her followers and is indeed a child of dawn; and there is the whole fact that Daedra Lords really are more actively involved in day-to-day life on Nirn. None of the Nine have actually spoken to her - like Azura has.
She does think sometimes how Uriel Septim said he was 'guided by the Nine'. She takes that to mean that perhaps one doesn't have to chose just one.
Precisely. Some of us consider them to be evil, it doesn't make it so. If I said Azura was hideous, some would not see it that way.
They do evil things from your point of view, from theirs it is not evil. Sometimes the term evil might not even exist...you have to understand, anything in the blue and orange morality is beyond human notions of good and evil and cannot in any way be labeled as such. That much is a fact, anything else is just your own notion speaking.
'Good' and 'Bad' are relative terms and thus rather useless overall, in my opinion. Even among the many cultures of Tamriel, there is no agreement on which Daedra (or Aedra for that matter) are 'good' and which 'bad'...it just depends on your culture, sub-culture and background.
Before the Tribunal came along and tried to 'discourage' the natural Daedra worship of the Chimeri/Dunmeri peoples, the Dark Elven ancestors had considered most Daedra to be 'good'...different from us, alien and with motivations we did not always understand, but good...much in the same way as the ancient Israelites considered Yahweh to be a 'good' deity despite the fact that they often did not understand what he was doing and why, and despite his punishments when they didn't.
The Tribunal Temple tried to do away with the ancient Daedra worship, but failed utterly as such attempts at religious suppression usually do. Many Daedra worshippers merely went underground and others became quieter in their faith. I would hazard to guess we may see a great resurgence of Daedric religious institutions in Morrowind again now that the Tribunal is gone...but that is aside from the point.
Many Mer, other than the Dunmer, do not consider the Daedra to be worthy of worship, considering themselves to be the blood decendents of the Aedra. However, many non-Dunmeri peoples still revere certain Daedra like Azura. Many non-Dunmeri merely have a 'respect' for these Daedra, rather than worshipping them as such.
Which are 'good' and which 'bad' depends on your background and your goals. Obviously many would see Mephala as a 'bad' Daedra as she encourages plots, intrigues, and ritual assassinations...however, the Dunmer and the Morag Tong (and those who employ them like the Empire) see her a 'good' Daedra because she encourages ritual assassinations for obtaining 'justice'...not merely for mayhem. Likewise, many a mage of any culture has sought the great book of knowledge held by Hermaeus Mora, the Daedra of knowledge. Is he a good or bad Daedra? Depends on your personal view...
Also, here is a statement from Mark Nelson (BlueDev). Developer.
"On Daedra as Good or Evil: As some have said, they are neither. Some are certainly more aggressive than others. Some have a greater tolerance for mortals. But, I wouldn't say that any are good or evil. Some people think of Azura as a "good" Daedra. That could end up being a very dangerous misconception in the Elder Scrolls world."
Yes, some daedra do show signs of concern for their follower's well-being.
"And found my favor. That skin will serve you well, child. Look more closely at it. My glories shall protect you from all this world's grievances.Good hunting."-Hircine, guardian and Father of Manbeasts.
" My followers are trapped between worlds; their bodies here on this plane, their souls in Oblivion. I would have you reunite the bodies and the souls."-Peryite.
"Many years ago, five followers slew the vampire Dratik and its kin, but all were infected by the foul creature. Knowing their fate, they sealed themselves up in the vampire's lair. Their suffering weighs heavily on me. Travel to the Gutted Mine. The door will open to you. Bring the peace of death to my followers, and you shall earn my gratitude."-Azura.
You still don't get it. You trying to act smart or I don't get something.
I know It's not evil, to be like they are in their realm. BUT, since we are humans, it's evil for us. It's not evil for them, but only they can say it. For us they ARE evil. No matter. The game developers want them to look godly by saying this. But when they made game, they knew which daedra is going to be evil and which are not. So think again.
I totaly understand what you want to say, I was in same opinion long time ago. But I see, no matter if daedra doesn't know he's evil. He still is. Maybe good and bad things arent existing in their realm. But since IN our realm they do, this means we can rate them by these 2 types.
Azura is bad as what I've seen during all those games. Daedras only act nice in oblivion.
All those quates are bullshit, since daedra can be different for everyone in mortal realm. They do act depending on your within.
Let me add a quate too if you like them so
"I don't care who asked you to find the Star, but don't take it back to Azura. The Daedra are evil. They're the reason Malyn went insane." -Necalar
I've completed every single daedric quest in skyrim and oblivion, and I can see, they can seduce mortals, and they only do things for their own purpose. Rewards are nothing. Since by taking them, you became a fallower. A resource. And when your usefulness gone. Daedra may send another champion, to take their artifact from you. They won't leave you alive.
I think what Giedrius911G is trying to say is perspective is Everything. If that is the case, I agree.
I guess to keep this on topic, I should say which I prefer. The nine hold appeal especially Mara and Kyne. Dibella would probably get some worship as well. Of the Daedra, Azura holds some appeal as I think she has a connection with the Khajiit. And I can't ignore something that might affect Aravi.
DE, I sort of see your point but can't say I agree. By your logic (the way I have interpreted it) Hitler* was not evil because from his point of view it was the right thing to do. The chimer/dunmer revere Boethiah, Azura and Mephala not because they believe they are good but because they were influential in the Chimer's separation from the Altmer. I do agree that good and bad are relative terms, but Molag Bal, Mehrunes Dagon, Mephala, Boethiah, Clavicus Vile, Namira, Vaermina are all pretty evil from the general perspective. The others are debatable, but you wouldn't want to get on any of their bad sides. Just look at how Azura eventually screwed over the Tribunal and in turn all the dunmer for abandoning her. Of course what sets Azura aside from other daedra is that she warned her followers about the coming danger, many of the daedra probably wouldnt do so.
*Other murderous dictators available
Well Vital, what I am saying is more or less what Giedrius is saying. Daedra are "evil" from the general perspective. Key word here is perspective. The point of view. Hitler`s enemies saw him as an evil man, yet some of his people hailed him as a hero. What I'm trying to say is that each side believes one side to be something. It can be argued that Molag, Dagon and Boethia are evil, but that's just what mortals consider them to be.
The fact is, Daedra are the way they are because of their spheres. Dagon can't stop being the Prince of Destruction. He is incapable of change. Calling Daedra evil is understandable, but it's like calling intelligent gravity evil.
DE, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, even though our opinions may not be as different as we think.
What I'm trying to say is, it's easy to sit here and say you could worship a daedra such as Hircine, but if you lived in Tamriel could you really make that choice? None of the daedra, not even Meridia, value human life at all. They are unpredictable, Hircine could as quickly have you killed by a bear as he could turn you into a lycanthrope (if that's what you really want). The player character is unique in that his dealings with the daedra always turn out well. Only Boethiah would accept a follower that worshipped her only for their own benefit, and that's because it's basically her sphere.
Granted, it's the same with Azura. You don't want to get on her bad side, and she demands dedication if you are to benefit from her worship, just look at how her priestess in Skyrim has to live. None of the daedra are always evil in everything they do, but it's hard to be perceived as 'good' when your sphere is rape. I actually wouldn't consider Hricine an 'evil' prince, his sphere is necessary, as are all of the daedra's.
In reflection I guess what I'm trying to say is: if you were to worship a daedra such as Molag Bal or Mehrunes Dagon then you can't say YOU aren't evil. Can you imagine some of the rituals these worshippers perform? You are right that the daedra's spheres cannot be changed, but that doesn't justify their actions. The daedra might not be 'evil' but they have no 'human' morals. No morals combined with immense power usually doesn't bode well for mortals. The daedra certainly have too much power for Tamriel's good. I think why some daedra such as Azura and Meridia mentioned so much in discussions like this thread is becuse their spheres are more justifiable and Azura definelty looks after her worshippers. However the destruction she caused my killing the tribunal would have made Dagon proud. Azura's not good, but on the daedric moral scale she does pretty well. I guess it all comes back to relativity...
Very clear points Vital. Even if Molag Bal and Dagon are considered the most evil, they are pretty average. For what I've seen after dealing with them in Morrowind, Skyrim, Oblivion and their expansions, this is what I can say:
Average: Azura, Nocturnal, Peryite, Vaermina.
Evil:Boethiah, Hermaeus Mora, Hircine, Jygallag, Malacath, Molag Bal, Namira.
Good:Clavicus Vile, Meridia, Sanguine, Sheogorath.
^They are mostly good, but like mortals, they also can do something bad, but that doesn't make us evil. If anyone disagree, that my listed "Good" daedra are evil, better learn more about them. If you be good to those four, they will never betray you. They will protect you with their power. Other daedras will kill you, when your usefulness will be gone.
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