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> Which Daedra/Aedra Would You Worship?
Lady Saga
post Jan 6 2013, 05:55 AM
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Ah I see. Thanks, SR. I am learning as I go.

I like to think LHM is an expert on this stuff, so whenver I come to a term about the Aedra or Daedra that I dont' know, I go ahead and look it up on UESP or one of the Wiki sites. But I don't know as much as I'd like to yet.





This post has been edited by Lady Saga: Jan 6 2013, 05:57 AM
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Captain Hammer
post Jan 6 2013, 07:41 AM
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Check out the Imperial Library. They have a collection of Michael Kirkbride's (the guy that wrote up a lot of the back-lore and the equivalent of the Elder Scrolls Metaphysicist-in-Chief) posts on the Aedra, the Daedra, their nature, and their relationships with Tamriel and Mundus.

Good way to kill a weekend. And an even better way to write some strange things into your stories while being able to claim that the world building is, in fact, attributable canon.


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Darkness Eternal
post Jan 6 2013, 02:34 PM
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Oh yeah, the guy who the Elder Scrolls lore apes worship as their god? Yeah, I heard of him. Too much.


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Untroubling and untroubled where I lie
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Lady Saga
post Jan 6 2013, 02:39 PM
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Thanks, Hammer. I will probably check that out if it gets slow at work. During weekends, if I'm not busy with RL stuff, I'm gaming or watching Xfiles re-runs. I rarely read for an entire weekend like I used to
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King Of Beasts
post Jan 7 2013, 07:18 AM
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I completely forgot about the imperial library. I'm gonna need to check it out soon.


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Destri Melarg
post Jan 15 2013, 02:50 AM
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QUOTE(Lady Saga @ Jan 5 2013, 08:14 PM) *

Now that I've been learning more about the Nine and Daedric Lords (through Lord Haaf-Mersey's eyes) I am having trouble understanding why Azura is not one of the Nine, and Arkay (burials and death) is not a Daedric Lord.

wacko.gif

Hey, Saga. Short(ish) answer: Arkay is one of the Nine for the simple reason that the Daedra would never have stooped to create him. Imagine the compassion needed to bring Arkay into existence. The Daedra are many things, but compassionate is not one of them. Arkay is unique amongst the Nine because he didnt exist before the creation of mortals (Nobody died before mortals came around). The lore makes him the son of Akatosh, which makes sense when you consider how much time is wrapped into the cycle of life and death. But to me Arkay is a bit of a cop out, a way for the Aedra to reclaim those pieces of themselves lost in the creation of the world. As such Arkay seems more like an accommodation put forth by Mara or Stendarr to have mercy on the poor souls condemned to the Mundas.

But thats just an opinion.

On topic: Its definitely Mephala for me. As a writer I feel that the webspinner and I are exactly the same.


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McBadgere
post Jan 15 2013, 02:05 PM
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Julianos...

Because he tends to get largely overlooked despite knowing a damned sight more than everyone in the room... biggrin.gif ...

He's my fave...*Applauds*...
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Grits
post Jan 15 2013, 04:25 PM
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Definitely Kyne. I chose to study environmental biology in college, and my proudest work was in that field. My favorite place to be is between the ocean and the sky. The goddess of the Storm would be a natural fit for me.

In Oblivion/KotN I was disappointed by Kynareths Let the bear eat you test. Everything I know about nature tells me that a worthy member of the predator faction (given by wearing the reward for not fighting the bear) would defend themself rather than turtle up or just stand there. Not necessarily kill the guardian bear, but at the least try to defeat it. I get that the character is supposed to show humility, but that does not ring true to what a nature deity would value in my experience. So Kynes Sacred Trials in Skyrim sealed the deal for me.

I still think that defeating a guardian spirit (in the Skyrim Trials) should let you summon its animal as a familiar. That would be neat.

That said, the Skaals notion of the All-Maker also has a lot of appeal to me.


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Darkness Eternal
post Mar 5 2014, 03:42 AM
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Hmm. A second thought would be to worship Hircine. The important thing is one must think what happens when they crossover. Or if they crossover. Going for the Lord of the Hunt seems a better fit than being a victim of sodomy in Coldharbour for an eternity with Molag Bal as a cellmate. Doing some research, it would appear that Hircine is inspired by the pagan Horned god and also a bit of Native American beliefs.

First, about the afterlife. We hear about the Hunting Grounds in ES as a place where animals are hunted just as well as people. Where creatures are twice the size of what they appear in Nirn and there is a large abundance of lycanthropes. Doesn't sound too pleasant if the individual is not a devout worshiper of Hircine. But to those who serve him, or are lycanthropes, some may see it as paradise much like the tribes of American Natives.

"Upon death, werewolves are claimed by Hircine for his Hunting Grounds. For some, this is a paradise. They want nothing more than to chase prey with their master for eternity. And that is their choice."-Kodlak.

"The happy hunting ground was the name given to the concept of the afterlife by several of the great plains Native American tribes, including the Oglala Lakota. It is an afterlife conceived of as a paradise in which hunting is plentiful and game unlimited. The name Happy Hunting Ground indicates the characteristics of this particular Native American afterlife tradition: the Happy Hunting Ground resembled the living world, but with much better weather and animals such as rabbit, deer and buffalo that were both plentiful and easy to hunt."

It occurs to me that The Hunting Grounds different greatly from the other Daedric realms. There is certainly no civilization or man-made constructs. Coldharbour we see buildings, same as Dagons Deadlands, and the Shivering Isles which has cities and towns Hircines realm, from what weve seen in Infernal City, is just one big realm with a giant forest, a great savannah and plains and tributaries and canyons. A huge wilderness. A wilderness full of lycanthropes and beasts that is much alike our African savannah and the different geography of our world before a time where technology and civilization came to be. While Tamriel grows and somewhat evolves, the Hunting Grounds, by Hircines will, remains the same. Wild, free, untamed and savage.

Ive always came to the conclusion that Bethesda borrowed Native American and Celtic lore and imbued it with Hircine who is like the pagan Horned god and Herne the Hunter. In common Wiccan belief, the Horned god is associated with nature, wilderness, sexuality, hunting and the life cycle. Hircine is associated with both the wilderness and the hunt, and some sexuality is also involved, too, as he is said to take the aspect of a Great Stag to transform women into hinds and mate with them.

From the Totems to Spirit of the Wolf and other elements that come into play. When ESOs beta came out, my belief was further reinforced. I find Hircines religion particularly interesting as those who worship him seek to distance themselves from society and embrace nature as a whole. It is no coincidence that the Glenmoril Witches also see the same.

Among those of us to whom Lord Hircine bestowed his most precious gift of Lycanthropy, there are legends that he also set into the world specific artifacts of his power. They date to a period when men could neither write, nor speak, nor barely think,While werewolves give up the powers of magic known to men, we can tap into a more direct natural energy at times, and through these totems, discover the abilities that first tamed the world before wrought civilization sullied it.-Totems of Hircine

"It is the will of Hircine that the Bosmer become as we were in the Dawn Age. Before Yffre trapped us in a single shape, before he told us our story and took away our freedom. Rise up and reject the tyranny of shape and story!-Blessings of Lord Hircine.

"The Glenmoril Wyrd . . . Their preference for life in the wilderness means their covens are usually located far from the agricultural or pastoral enclaves of "civilized" people, which contributes to the lack of understanding of their true natures. This has led to the Glenmoril covens nearly always being described in terms such as uncanny, reclusive, dangerous, inimical, and evil.

In fact, the Glenmoril Wyrd are all of these thingsexcept, I would argue, evil. It is true that they are unswervingly committed to a rejection of civilization and civilized ways; it is true they admit no male members to their covens; it is true they regard themselves as enforcers of certain "laws of nature" which only they recognize. This does not make them evil, just strict adherents to moral codes that are different from our own."


As in Native American belief(though not limited to), animal totems are used as symbols in shamanistic rituals and customs and lifestyle. Much like them, werewolves in ES lore also revere the Totems of Hircine, which are five that also related to the five aspects of Hircine.

"You may meet the Hunter, who is invoked as Alrabeg. He bears the Spear of Bitter Mercy. He comes here from the Hunting Grounds to hunt new prey, or he brings prey native to the Hunting Grounds, like the Unicorn, to hunt in new forests. If he brings not prey, then woe betide you who meet him, for he may dub you the Hare. Then you must flee as best you can, though you will not escape.

You may meet the Manbeast, who is invoked as Storihbeg. He wears the Wolf Skull Totem and his growl is like a landslide in the Karth Gorge. He comes here to hunt with his children the Skinshifters, or to adopt new children and turn them pelt-side-out. His howl will freeze your inwards like a pond in Evening Star at midnightyou will see your death approach, but be unable to flee.

You may meet the Great Stag, who is invoked as Uricanbeg, and whose hooves drum the Blood Summons. He comes to mate with the hinds, and may transform a comely woman for that purpose, or to cull the herd of the weak. Those who hear his drumbeat are doomed to run with the herd, and may follow him back to the Hunting Grounds where they will be chased and unmade.

You may meet the Quick Fox, who is invoked as Gulibeg, and who wields the Wand of Bone. He comes here to confound mortal hunters, to run them in circles until they are so plexed and wildered that they follow him over a cliff or into a trackless mire. He may fill you with such fury you can do naught but pursue him, or he may note you as clever and teach you his tricks.

You may meet the Mighty Bear, who is invoked as Hrokkibeg. He embodies the Totem of Claw and Fang, and comes here seeking solitude, peace from labors, and renewal of the Burning Spirit Within. Beware, for if you rouse him and disturb his serenity you will be torn asunder. But if you approach him with deference and an offering of honey-sweet mead, he may grant you the power of the Bear-Heart in your next fight."


Since my great great great grandparents were actually real life natives of an Amazonian tribe, and being in love with nature, hunting, and of course, werewolves . . . I can definitely say I wouldn't mind worshiping Hircine and spending an eternity running naked in the Hunting Grounds as a man or a man trapped in the form of a wolf and forget what civilization means by going back to the roots of mankind. As long as I'm not the one being hunted smile.gif

This post has been edited by Darkness Eternal: Mar 5 2014, 03:51 AM


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And yet I am, and live—like vapours tossed.
I long for scenes where man hath never trod
A place where woman never smiled or wept
There to abide with my Creator, God,
And sleep as I in childhood sweetly slept,
Untroubling and untroubled where I lie
The grass below—above the vaulted sky.”
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mirocu
post Mar 5 2014, 09:09 AM
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Id pick no one. Why cant they worship me? biggrin.gif


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Vital
post Mar 5 2014, 01:05 PM
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QUOTE(mirocu @ Mar 5 2014, 07:09 PM) *

Id pick no one. Why cant they worship me? biggrin.gif

What's your name? Tiber Septim? laugh.gif

Honestly, I've never really thought about who I would worship, it's always who one of my characters would worship...


Personally it'd have to be Azura because apart from being the daedric prince of dawn and dusk, which I interpret as the continuous flow of time, she's also completely awesome and looks after her followers much better than the other daedra.

I might also consider some of the nine divines too. Kyne/ Kynareth, Akatosh, Zenithar, Stendarr and Julianos mainly. Just because those deities could be helpful for life in Tamriel.

This post has been edited by Vital: Mar 5 2014, 01:05 PM


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ghastley
post Mar 5 2014, 04:35 PM
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In Skyrim, like the other TES worlds, the Aedra don't actually do anything in the world-space. They already did everything they intend to, by creating it in the first place. The Daedra, on the other hand are directly interfering, and rather powerful when they do so. So I'd probably worship all of them, just to play safe.

Once I'd had some direct contact, I might revise my opinions on whether they warranted worship, and stop if it was prudent to do so. I might also form the impression that some Daedra would prefer an adversarial position. Sheogorath isn't going to let any mortal understand what he wants, so why try?



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Giedrius911G
post Mar 6 2014, 10:43 AM
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^No, daedra reflect's god's in our life. They do nothing, and they don't give a [censored] about their worshippers. Even if they look different from each other, daedric god's aren't even gods. They're just horribly powerful and are almost same as gods. The divines couldn't destroy them.
They do not help mortals, from evil daedra's deeds. They don't protect your soul after daedra has taken it, or sithis or any of them.
It's like in real life. You choose to act good, to build everything yourself, without any help from gods. Or you can worship evil, and if your god is evil, that doesn't mean he will act good with you after your death. Because nothing can change them.
Btw, no matter how good a daedra may look, they are all evil. Even azura, which is pretty evil. All of them want's mortals to act in favor for them.
Divines ask's to live peacefuly, and be good to everyone. When daedra asks to do things, that are worth something only for the prince itself. They're selfish.

This post has been edited by Giedrius911G: Mar 6 2014, 10:46 AM


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Vital
post Mar 6 2014, 10:50 AM
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Id never worship any of the daedra except for Azura and maybe Meridia, the rest have too much power for Tamriel's good, IMO. That may sound stupid but I've done enough daedric quests to know what happens to their followers. Follow some for even a bit and they could seriously screw you over. The Aedra, although they gave most f their power to create Nirn, still have some power in Nirn. Examples of this are the shrine blessings, the avatar of Akatosh in oblivion, wulf in morrowind etc...

This post has been edited by Vital: Mar 6 2014, 10:54 AM


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Darkness Eternal
post Mar 6 2014, 12:38 PM
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QUOTE(Giedrius911G @ Mar 6 2014, 10:43 AM) *

^No, daedra reflect's god's in our life. They do nothing, and they don't give a [censored] about their worshippers. Even if they look different from each other, daedric god's aren't even gods. They're just horribly powerful and are almost same as gods. The divines couldn't destroy them.
They do not help mortals, from evil daedra's deeds. They don't protect your soul after daedra has taken it, or sithis or any of them.
It's like in real life. You choose to act good, to build everything yourself, without any help from gods. Or you can worship evil, and if your god is evil, that doesn't mean he will act good with you after your death. Because nothing can change them.
Btw, no matter how good a daedra may look, they are all evil. Even azura, which is pretty evil. All of them want's mortals to act in favor for them.
Divines ask's to live peacefuly, and be good to everyone. When daedra asks to do things, that are worth something only for the prince itself. They're selfish.

For starters, Daedra aren't evil. I could pull up some lore quotes to support this. Evil is subjective. The way Daedra behave is only PERCEIVED as evil from mortals. Plus, I think therebis more to the divines.


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And yet I am, and live—like vapours tossed.
I long for scenes where man hath never trod
A place where woman never smiled or wept
There to abide with my Creator, God,
And sleep as I in childhood sweetly slept,
Untroubling and untroubled where I lie
The grass below—above the vaulted sky.”
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Acadian
post Mar 6 2014, 01:38 PM
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I know this is in the Skyrim section and my perspective is primarily from Oblivion. . . . That said, Buffy's always been torn between Mara, Kynareth and Azura.

She was raised in the city of Mara, and love is a very very important part of her life. She often manifests love for her friends the same way a mother grizzly manifests love for her cubs when they are endangered - so she does not consider Mara a pacifist. She also considers the Mother Goddess of Fertility responsible for everything that grows from the ground, from crops to forests.

Speaking of forests, she is ever so comfortable in them and with their creatures of Kynareth and under Kynareth's sky. And the old paladin within her was once a knight of Kyne.

Regarding Azura, Buffy was impressed at her concern for her followers and is indeed a child of dawn; and there is the whole fact that Daedra Lords really are more actively involved in day-to-day life on Nirn. None of the Nine have actually spoken to her - like Azura has.

She does think sometimes how Uriel Septim said he was 'guided by the Nine'. She takes that to mean that perhaps one doesn't have to chose just one.


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Giedrius911G
post Mar 6 2014, 09:47 PM
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QUOTE(Darkness Eternal @ Mar 6 2014, 01:38 PM) *

QUOTE(Giedrius911G @ Mar 6 2014, 10:43 AM) *

^No, daedra reflect's god's in our life. They do nothing, and they don't give a [censored] about their worshippers. Even if they look different from each other, daedric god's aren't even gods. They're just horribly powerful and are almost same as gods. The divines couldn't destroy them.
They do not help mortals, from evil daedra's deeds. They don't protect your soul after daedra has taken it, or sithis or any of them.
It's like in real life. You choose to act good, to build everything yourself, without any help from gods. Or you can worship evil, and if your god is evil, that doesn't mean he will act good with you after your death. Because nothing can change them.
Btw, no matter how good a daedra may look, they are all evil. Even azura, which is pretty evil. All of them want's mortals to act in favor for them.
Divines ask's to live peacefuly, and be good to everyone. When daedra asks to do things, that are worth something only for the prince itself. They're selfish.

For starters, Daedra aren't evil. I could pull up some lore quotes to support this. Evil is subjective. The way Daedra behave is only PERCEIVED as evil from mortals. Plus, I think therebis more to the divines.


It's evil for us. Evil is evil everywhere, it just can't be such a big deal for them. They see it as the true way of existence, like we do see about being good.
If you can't say they're evil, you can't rate their behaviour at all. In skyrim, you can see more truth about them.

This post has been edited by Giedrius911G: Mar 6 2014, 09:50 PM


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Darkness Eternal
post Mar 7 2014, 12:56 AM
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Precisely. Some of us consider them to be evil, it doesn't make it so. If I said Azura was hideous, some would not see it that way.

They do evil things from your point of view, from theirs it is not evil. Sometimes the term evil might not even exist...you have to understand, anything in the blue and orange morality is beyond human notions of good and evil and cannot in any way be labeled as such. That much is a fact, anything else is just your own notion speaking.

'Good' and 'Bad' are relative terms and thus rather useless overall, in my opinion. Even among the many cultures of Tamriel, there is no agreement on which Daedra (or Aedra for that matter) are 'good' and which 'bad'...it just depends on your culture, sub-culture and background.

Before the Tribunal came along and tried to 'discourage' the natural Daedra worship of the Chimeri/Dunmeri peoples, the Dark Elven ancestors had considered most Daedra to be 'good'...different from us, alien and with motivations we did not always understand, but good...much in the same way as the ancient Israelites considered Yahweh to be a 'good' deity despite the fact that they often did not understand what he was doing and why, and despite his punishments when they didn't.

The Tribunal Temple tried to do away with the ancient Daedra worship, but failed utterly as such attempts at religious suppression usually do. Many Daedra worshippers merely went underground and others became quieter in their faith. I would hazard to guess we may see a great resurgence of Daedric religious institutions in Morrowind again now that the Tribunal is gone...but that is aside from the point.

Many Mer, other than the Dunmer, do not consider the Daedra to be worthy of worship, considering themselves to be the blood decendents of the Aedra. However, many non-Dunmeri peoples still revere certain Daedra like Azura. Many non-Dunmeri merely have a 'respect' for these Daedra, rather than worshipping them as such.

Which are 'good' and which 'bad' depends on your background and your goals. Obviously many would see Mephala as a 'bad' Daedra as she encourages plots, intrigues, and ritual assassinations...however, the Dunmer and the Morag Tong (and those who employ them like the Empire) see her a 'good' Daedra because she encourages ritual assassinations for obtaining 'justice'...not merely for mayhem. Likewise, many a mage of any culture has sought the great book of knowledge held by Hermaeus Mora, the Daedra of knowledge. Is he a good or bad Daedra? Depends on your personal view...


Also, here is a statement from Mark Nelson (BlueDev). Developer.

"On Daedra as Good or Evil: As some have said, they are neither. Some are certainly more aggressive than others. Some have a greater tolerance for mortals. But, I wouldn't say that any are good or evil. Some people think of Azura as a "good" Daedra. That could end up being a very dangerous misconception in the Elder Scrolls world."

Yes, some daedra do show signs of concern for their follower's well-being.

"And found my favor. That skin will serve you well, child. Look more closely at it. My glories shall protect you from all this world's grievances.Good hunting."-Hircine, guardian and Father of Manbeasts.

" My followers are trapped between worlds; their bodies here on this plane, their souls in Oblivion. I would have you reunite the bodies and the souls."-Peryite.

"Many years ago, five followers slew the vampire Dratik and its kin, but all were infected by the foul creature. Knowing their fate, they sealed themselves up in the vampire's lair. Their suffering weighs heavily on me. Travel to the Gutted Mine. The door will open to you. Bring the peace of death to my followers, and you shall earn my gratitude."-Azura.



This post has been edited by Darkness Eternal: Mar 7 2014, 01:12 AM
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Giedrius911G
post Mar 7 2014, 02:41 AM
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You still don't get it. You trying to act smart or I don't get something.
I know It's not evil, to be like they are in their realm. BUT, since we are humans, it's evil for us. It's not evil for them, but only they can say it. For us they ARE evil. No matter. The game developers want them to look godly by saying this. But when they made game, they knew which daedra is going to be evil and which are not. So think again.
I totaly understand what you want to say, I was in same opinion long time ago. But I see, no matter if daedra doesn't know he's evil. He still is. Maybe good and bad things arent existing in their realm. But since IN our realm they do, this means we can rate them by these 2 types.
Azura is bad as what I've seen during all those games. Daedras only act nice in oblivion.
All those quates are bullshit, since daedra can be different for everyone in mortal realm. They do act depending on your within.
Let me add a quate too if you like them so biggrin.gif
"I don't care who asked you to find the Star, but don't take it back to Azura. The Daedra are evil. They're the reason Malyn went insane." -Necalar
I've completed every single daedric quest in skyrim and oblivion, and I can see, they can seduce mortals, and they only do things for their own purpose. Rewards are nothing. Since by taking them, you became a fallower. A resource. And when your usefulness gone. Daedra may send another champion, to take their artifact from you. They won't leave you alive.

This post has been edited by Giedrius911G: Mar 7 2014, 02:50 AM


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King Coin
post Mar 7 2014, 02:44 AM
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I think what Giedrius911G is trying to say is perspective is Everything. If that is the case, I agree.


I guess to keep this on topic, I should say which I prefer. The nine hold appeal especially Mara and Kyne. Dibella would probably get some worship as well. Of the Daedra, Azura holds some appeal as I think she has a connection with the Khajiit. And I can't ignore something that might affect Aravi.

This post has been edited by King Coin: Mar 7 2014, 02:48 AM


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