Questions of Lore., Ask anything! Options

[Kazaera]

Ooh, a thread!

Okay, this question might just be answered with "it's history and contradictory accounts, duh". But...

...were the Nords at the Battle of Red Mountain? What were they doing there?

I find this really confusing, because Vivec's account (the only first-hand one we have) makes no mention of them at all, but then e.g. the Five Songs of King Wulfharth insists they were, but insists that it was House Dagoth and the Nords versus Nerevar and Dumac who were allied which doesn't... really line up with the Dunmer accounts... augh, this stuff always makes my head hurt.

Oh yeah, speaking of heads hurting... a second question.

Was Vivec on skooma when he wrote the Sermons?

[Black Hand]

Ooh, a thread!

Okay, this question might just be answered with "it's history and contradictory accounts, duh". But...

...were the Nords at the Battle of Red Mountain? What were they doing there?

I find this really confusing, because Vivec's account (the only first-hand one we have) makes no mention of them at all, but then e.g. the Five Songs of King Wulfharth insists they were, but insists that it was House Dagoth and the Nords versus Nerevar and Dumac who were allied which doesn't... really line up with the Dunmer accounts... augh, this stuff always makes my head hurt.

Hmmmm. I believe so, if memory serves it was the Nords invited into the conflict via Dagoth, and Orcish Mercenaries, the Telvanni described it as the "Dwemer-Dagoth-Westerner" forces. I'll re-read the Vivec account, simply not mentioning them doesn't necessarily mean they weren't. Absence of Evidence and all that.

Oh yeah, speaking of heads hurting... a second question.

Was Vivec on skooma when he wrote the Sermons?

On skooma? No.

"It was one dev, naked in a room with a carton of cigarettes, a thermos full of coffee and bourbon, and all his summoned angels."

(All the way at the bottom of page for quote. Vivec is sometimes called MK's avatar in Morrowind...sorta a joke...sorta not...)

[SubRosa]

The Nords had occupied Morrowind before their defeat at Red Mountain. Afterward they were driven out of Morrowind. And if I correctly recall, it was that defeat that caused Jurgen Windcaller to renounce using The Voice for war, and become a pacifist instead.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Jul 31 2013, 11:12 PM

[Kazaera]

@BlackHand - okay, didn't realise the Telvanni placed them there as well. What does still confuse me is the alliances... I thought House Dagoth fought with Nerevar, against the Dwemer, up to the point where Dagoth Ur was asked to guard the tools and used them instead? And then Five Songs claimed Nerevar and Dumac were allied... well, I suppose they might have banded together temporarily against a new threat or something...

@SubRosa - different battle of Red Mountain, I'm afraid. This was a few centuries after the Nords had been driven out, when the Chimer and Dwemer went to war.

[SubRosa]

Ah yes, I see what you mean now Kaz. I was thinking of when the Dunmer and Dwemer joined together to fight the Nords in 1E 416. You were asking about the end of the War of the First Council, in 1E 700. It certainly looks like they were there for the second round as well, and did no better than the first.

Dagoth Voryn was indeed Nerevar's trusted companion and friend until after the Dwarves were defeated and Dunmer got their hands on the tools of kragenac. One view I stumbled upon is that Dagoth invited the Nords in at the behest of the Tribunal. It seems that Nerevar might have been holding out hope of settling things peacefully with King Dumac of the Dwarves. The Tribunal wanted the war to continue however, so they figured bringing the Nords in would force the issue. Exactly who the Nords fought is unclear. It looks like they were betrayed by the Dunmer, and fought everybody.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Aug 1 2013, 01:39 AM

[jack cloudy]

I wished I could help with that, but I don't know much about the battles for Red Mountain. (I swear I keep mixing them up.)


So I'll leave two questions.

1: What happened to the Eternal Champion after the events of Arena? (joke answer I can't help but like: The Eternal Champion literally became what the title suggests, constantly taking on new forms whenever the world needs saving. Which in Tamriel seems to be every Fredas.)

2: What exactly did Ulfric do during the Great War? I know he fought for the Empire but that is the limit of it. I have a fanfic going where the main character was at Ulfric's side during it and it would be embarassing if I left out important characters or added things that are blatantly false.

[SubRosa]

2: What exactly did Ulfric do during the Great War? I know he fought for the Empire but that is the limit of it. I have a fanfic going where the main character was at Ulfric's side during it and it would be embarassing if I left out important characters or added things that are blatantly false.

I think that is all they ever say, which is to say, they never say anything more. Did I really say that? About all they really tell us for certain is that he gave up being a Greybeard to join up to fight for the Empire, that he was captured, tortured by Elenwen, and made to believe that he gave up information that led to the Imperial City's capture (which was not true, it had fallen already, but that was not the point, it was just another way to torture him). The Talmor's Dossier says he was allowed to escape. But that of course does not mean he was allowed to escape. I would not be surprised if his escape was quite real, and Elenwen wrote that to cover her ass after the fact. This is the Thalmor after all...

It certainly looks like Galmar and Rikke fought alongside him in the war. Whether either of them were captured or not is unclear. My guess is not. But its pretty open ground for anyone to plow.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Aug 2 2013, 12:00 AM

[jack cloudy]

So not much more than I already knew then. Oh well, a blank slate is perhaps the most convenient.


As for Galmar and Rikke, Galmar is a possible prisoner but I doubt Rikke would have been captured by the Thalmor. It makes her later service as Tullius' right hand embarrassing for the Thalmor. Not to mention giving her a motive for revenge that makes her coöperation with the Thalmor suspect. Elenwen would not permit someone near her who has every reason to fly off the hook and knock her head off.


As for Ulfric's escape, I like to think that it wasn't him suddenly deciding to leave all on his own after all the torture. Rather it involved an assault on the complex from the outside. This could also be the place and time where Ulfric for the first time broke the way of the Voice and used the Shout as a weapon. Whether the escape was because the Thalmor allowed it or because the prisonbreakers were just too badass can be left open.




And speaking of the dossier for a moment. It is curious how it describes Ulfric as a dormant asset. I understand that the Thalmor are basically rubbing their hands with glee over the whole civil war. It weakens the empire after all and opens a second front the legion has to deal with. But at the same time I doubt that Ulfric is secretly in league with the Aldmeri Dominion. Unwitting pawn who can't see he is playing into the hands of those he proclaims to be his ultimate enemy, yes. Spy? No.


The dossier mentions having had direct contact and later implies that there is still secret aid. My interpretations of these is that Elenwen or one of her subordinates have spoken to Ulfric when he'd returned to Skyrim. Possibly to incite him (while making him think he'd come up with the idea himself of course) into going to war against the empire. The secret aid could be weapons and funding of course, but I think it is more in the vein of hindering operations conducted by the Thalmor against General Tullius. Think of the capture of Talos worshippers which serves to increase support for the Stormcloaks, or leaking out information so that Ulfric could elude capture up till Helgen.

[SubRosa]

So not much more than I already knew then. Oh well, a blank slate is perhaps the most convenient.


As for Galmar and Rikke, Galmar is a possible prisoner but I doubt Rikke would have been captured by the Thalmor. It makes her later service as Tullius' right hand embarrassing for the Thalmor. Not to mention giving her a motive for revenge that makes her coöperation with the Thalmor suspect. Elenwen would not permit someone near her who has every reason to fly off the hook and knock her head off.


As for Ulfric's escape, I like to think that it wasn't him suddenly deciding to leave all on his own after all the torture. Rather it involved an assault on the complex from the outside. This could also be the place and time where Ulfric for the first time broke the way of the Voice and used the Shout as a weapon. Whether the escape was because the Thalmor allowed it or because the prisonbreakers were just too badass can be left open.




And speaking of the dossier for a moment. It is curious how it describes Ulfric as a dormant asset. I understand that the Thalmor are basically rubbing their hands with glee over the whole civil war. It weakens the empire after all and opens a second front the legion has to deal with. But at the same time I doubt that Ulfric is secretly in league with the Aldmeri Dominion. Unwitting pawn who can't see he is playing into the hands of those he proclaims to be his ultimate enemy, yes. Spy? No.


The dossier mentions having had direct contact and later implies that there is still secret aid. My interpretations of these is that Elenwen or one of her subordinates have spoken to Ulfric when he'd returned to Skyrim. Possibly to incite him (while making him think he'd come up with the idea himself of course) into going to war against the empire. The secret aid could be weapons and funding of course, but I think it is more in the vein of hindering operations conducted by the Thalmor against General Tullius. Think of the capture of Talos worshippers which serves to increase support for the Stormcloaks, or leaking out information so that Ulfric could elude capture up till Helgen.

It could be that after Ulfric was captured, Galmar and Rikke are the ones who mounted a rescue of him afterward. That strikes me as both believable, and a suitably heroic deed for the genre.

I too think the idea that Ulfric openly and willingly serving the Dominion is as unlikely as John McCain being North Vietnam's Manchurian Candidate. I think the term 'asset' is what most people get confused over, and mix up with 'agent' - which is something completely different. Every American pilot the North Vietnamese tortured for information was one of their assets. But that is not to say that any of them were working for the North Vietnamese. They are just people who could be manipulated to accomplish the NVA's goals.

Likewise, Tullius, Rikke, Elisef, and Titus Mede are all Thalmor assets as well, because they are people whom the Altmer can manipulate to accomplish their ends. The only difference between Ulfric and Tullius in that regard is that the Thalmor cannot approach Ulfric directly (since he'll kill them). They have to use secret agents whom Ulfric does not know are Thalmor spies to push or prod or leak information to him. While on the other hand Tullius can be found at the Thalmor's parties.

The Thalmor's ultimate goal is of course to keep both sides fighting one another indefinitely. So I do believe they are helping Ulfric on the sly with information about Imperial movements, etc... and of course the same in reverse. Anything to keep them both in the fight. In the end both the Empire and the Stormcloaks are being used by the Thalmor, because the civil war provides a distraction. The Dominion needs to keep the round-ears busy while they rebuild their losses from Red Ring Road. Given that they are elves, it will take their women a long, long time to squirt out even one new generation of kids.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Aug 3 2013, 10:46 PM

[Kiln]

So it has been a while and my lore is a little rusty.

My question is, was Nerevar solely responsible for the chain of events that destroyed Morrowind?

[Colonel Mustard]

So it has been a while and my lore is a little rusty.

My question is, was Nerevar solely responsible for the chain of events that destroyed Morrowind?

Weeeell, it depends on how you want to assign blame for these things, considering it was the Tribunal who wanted to play silly buggers with the Tools of Kagrenac and all that, but the Nerevarine essentially took away the power of both the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur by destroying the Heart of Lorkhan. Once that was done, Vivec no longer had the power to stop the Ministry of Truth falling (and I believe that it had been placed in a chronological stasis of sorts, meaning it still retained its kinetic energy) and so it went smack-bang into Vvardenfel and set Red Mountain off.

So in a way, it was the Nerevarine's fault, but only because the Tribunal were a bunch of dicks beforehand.

[Darkness Eternal]

How many people died in the Invasion of Akavir? All of the soldiers and the troopers and the emperor? I want to know the estimate but not the exact number.

[SubRosa]

So it has been a while and my lore is a little rusty.

My question is, was Nerevar solely responsible for the chain of events that destroyed Morrowind?

I would say it is the responsibility of whoever threw the big rock at Vivec in the first place. Someone who has never been revealed. Plus blame has to go on Vivec himself, since he was such a gigantic dick in the first place that he 'riled up someone so much that they threw said big rock at him. Thinking about it, I would put more responsibility on Vivec, since he purposely left it hanging in the sky afterward as a sort of doomsday machine, to get revenge upon Morrowind just in case its people ever woke up and cast off him and his co-conspirators. It was his ultimate way of saying F-you to the Dunmer people.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Aug 4 2013, 12:27 AM

[Black Hand]

So it has been a while and my lore is a little rusty.

My question is, was Nerevar solely responsible for the chain of events that destroyed Morrowind?

If you refer to Baar Dau, better known as the Ministry of Truth, it was held there by Vivec's power according to the story. It would be held there as long as he had the power and inclination. Almost a subtle threat as to what would occur should the faithful cease to be as such.

The source of the Moonlet is either a simple meteor, or Sheogorath, depending on which account you follow.

In the book 'The Infernal City' it is said that Vivec and his influence had all but disappeared and the Ministry was held in place by a machine of sorts invented by the Dunmer that was fueled with souls, similar to Ghostgate.

When that power ran out, Baar Dau landed with the same amount of force that was behind it when it was held in place, completely destroying Vivec City.

If you simply mean the rise and fall of the Tribunal, there is a secret message in the Thrity-Six Sermons of Vivec:

If we take the numbers from sermon 29, use them to take out words from appropriate sermons and put them together, we will get a secret message:

"He was not born a god. His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will. He stole the godhood and murdered the Hortator. Vivec wrote this."

This post has been edited by Black Hand: Aug 4 2013, 01:31 AM

[Kiln]

Thanks guys. Was just curious because of the Skyrim DLC in which you visit Solstheim, I was reminded that the volcano is still spewing ash all over Morrowind and the dark elves are just a shadow of their former selves, having basically lost their home province.

The full consequence of Nerevar's actions during the main quest has really just become evident to me somehow.

[Colonel Mustard]

Thanks guys. Was just curious because of the Skyrim DLC in which you visit Solstheim, I was reminded that the volcano is still spewing ash all over Morrowind and the dark elves are just a shadow of their former selves, having basically lost their home province.

The full consequence of Nerevar's actions during the main quest has really just become evident to me somehow.

I've got to say, that was one of the favourite tidbits of lore Bethesda put into Skyrim; when you think about it, it's an obvious side effect of taking the Tribunal's power away from them, but I don't think that that occurred to anybody when they were first playing the game. It makes your action in the Morrowind MQ carry a lot more weight when that revelation does arrive.

[Kiln]

Thanks guys. Was just curious because of the Skyrim DLC in which you visit Solstheim, I was reminded that the volcano is still spewing ash all over Morrowind and the dark elves are just a shadow of their former selves, having basically lost their home province.

The full consequence of Nerevar's actions during the main quest has really just become evident to me somehow.

I've got to say, that was one of the favourite tidbits of lore Bethesda put into Skyrim; when you think about it, it's an obvious side effect of taking the Tribunal's power away from them, but I don't think that that occurred to anybody when they were first playing the game. It makes your action in the Morrowind MQ carry a lot more weight when that revelation does arrive.

Exactly. It was like a revelation for me and I just wanted to give props to them when I actually realized that they had created such well thought out plotlines between games.

[SubRosa]

How many people died in the Invasion of Akavir? All of the soldiers and the troopers and the emperor? I want to know the estimate but not the exact number.

It is hard to say. Bethesda does not like to give out those kinds of details. From reading Disaster At Ionith, four legions were deployed to Akavir. There was going to be two more to reinforce them, but they were held back in favor of sending colonists instead. If an Imperial Legion is a similar strength to a Roman Legion during the Republic it would be about 4,200 soldiers. If it is the same as the early Roman Empire, it would be about 5,200. So we might say between 16,000 - 20,000 soldiers. There is no telling how many colonists arrived. Perhaps the same number as men would have been in the reinforcing legions? That would be from 8,000 - 10,000 people. So we might take the averages and say 18k soldiers + 9k colonists, for 27k total Imperials.

Some of the Expeditionary Force escaped to Septimia, and was rescued by the Imperial Navy. They do not give any numbers though, except that it was that city's original garrison plus the remnants of the Emperor's field army. So my guesstimate would be a few thousand people out of the 27 got away.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Aug 4 2013, 06:53 PM

[McBadgere]

One of the Knightly orders I mention in my KOTN thing is the Order of The Lamp...Is there any official Lore to do with them or is it all up for grabs?...

I mean, like I'm going to stick to it anyways, but I'd thought I'd ask...While we're at it... ...

[SubRosa]

One of the Knightly orders I mention in my KOTN thing is the Order of The Lamp...Is there any official Lore to do with them or is it all up for grabs?...

I mean, like I'm going to stick to it anyways, but I'd thought I'd ask...While we're at it... ...

They are part of the Mages Guild. They were created shortly after the guild was formed, when they realized they needed some security guards. The Origin of the Mages Guild gives some idea of the internal structure of the guild. Whenever you see battlemages from the Mages Guild, like Arielle Jurard and Roliand Hanus, they are members of the Order of the Lamp (Lampreys?)

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Aug 4 2013, 07:08 PM