The Big "Commentasaurus"-thread, For those who want to comment on multiple stories at the same time! Options

[Burnt Sierra]

Okay. For the informal competition we ran as a test, we asked comments to include the following.

Pick something you liked about the story.
Pick something you thought could have been better.

I'm beginning to think we need that balance. I've read the post that Blackie quoted there, and whilst some of the comments made are probably useful, there wasn't a single positive mentioned. Also I have to say, I didn't agree with all the examples used in that anyway. Let's, whenever we post a response, bear that in mind. A positive, something to be improved and our thanks to the writer for sharing their work. It won't decrease the quality of responses (if anything it'll improve them) and we get the best of both worlds there. Proper criticism without losing our warm fuzzy forum vibe that Paragenic loved so much

[redsrock]

If they are "arrogant know-it-alls", let them be so. Their power over you both begins and ends in the misty region of your mind. If you let them hurt you, they hurt you. If you let them help, they help.

I never said it did hurt me. And if you read one of my previous posts you will have read that yes/no feedback doesn't effect me either way.

This post has been edited by redsrock: Jun 3 2008, 09:37 PM

[Kitchen.Sink]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, redsrock. In the above quote, I meant "you" in the general sense, not specific.

This post has been edited by Kitchen.Sink: Jun 3 2008, 09:45 PM

[redsrock]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, redsrock. In the above quote, I meant "you" in the general sense, not specific.

No problem, I take part of the blame then. I assumed you were talking to me and BH alone. No harm no foul.

[kementari]

I apologize if my post came across as harsh. The fanfiction communities I'm used to had a strong underpinning of assuming that everyone's work was basically good, and therefore we tended to focus only on points that needed improvement. From here on out I'll include the positive as well, just so that nobody gets any ideas. :)

I did think Chiglet's story was fundamentally quite cute, and that it didn't have any glaring problems. The criticisms I made were pretty in-depth editorial comments, by necessity subjective in nature. I didn't mean to imply that I was right and Chiglet was wrong; rather, I thought the depth of time I took to critically examine his/her writing style would be meaningful to the author.

You know that "Golden Rule"? Chiglet's post is an example of how I'd "have people do unto me". (And at the risk of countermanding BSD-IES, I don't even mind if there's nothing positive.) <3

[kementari]

I would be honored to have Kementari, or anyone, critique my work as thoroughly as mentioned in the above post. To take the time to critique shows far greater appreciation of a work than to just provide a pat on the back with a "Smashing good job, old fellow."

Is that permission? I think I'll refrain from criticizing others' posts in the future without explicit permission to do so, due to being used as an example in this little spat. I have no wish to come across as "write-ier than thou".

[Kitchen.Sink]

Is that permission?

Yes, it is permission to you and anyone else who wishes to critique my work. I also need nothing positive said about what I write. If you wish to share something positive, feel free to do so. If you wish to share something negative, feel free to do that also. Of course, I make that statement on my own behalf; when I critique the works of others I will most certainly uphold any rule set by the moderators.

[Black Hand]

I apologize if my post came across as harsh. The fanfiction communities I'm used to had a strong underpinning of assuming that everyone's work was basically good, and therefore we tended to focus only on points that needed improvement.

If that is indeed your position, than allow me to apologize for misunderstanding it. There have been several points of frustration on this site recently, and I did indeed misinpret your post as one of them.

Contrary to what it may have sounded like, I am not making a 'call-to-arms' or try to sound as...ridiculous as to say 'i h8 n00bs'. Adaptation certainly takes time, I was new here once as well. Ive been biting my tongue with some of the things that have been infuriatiing me, save via Pm's with a couple of friends. It is because I think the people who say things like 'this is OUR site!!' or 'I hate noobs' are ridiculous, I didnt want to end up making a horses behind of myself by saying something, though admittedly I have.

As for me, I don't give critisicms because Im not qualified. I am uncertain as to how good work could be great, and okay work could be better. I believe that everyone is doing the best they can, with something that they like doing. And to share a talent with people, to open yourself to someone elses judgement, is one of the scariest things someone could do, and I dont think that budding talent should be trampled on by boorish cads who havent the slightest regard for feelings, it needs positivity, encouragment, before it can truly be shaped and molded by editing and consensus. People are not computers, and comfort, psychology, and attitude can make or break a writer in the beggining. If I hadnt recieved positive feedback in the beggining, I would have stopped writing, I would have.

At this point in time, I am confident enough in my writing to know that there are a few people who will love your work, a lot that might think its okay, and a few that will detest it with every fiber of their being, but in the end its whether or not the writer is satisfied with the work, not the audience, unless your selling a book of course.....

[kementari]

And to share a talent with people, to open yourself to someone elses judgement, is one of the scariest things someone could do, and I dont think that budding talent should be trampled on by boorish cads who havent the slightest regard for feelings,

Like you mentioned, I haven't exactly been here for very long, but I haven't really seen evidence of people who fit that description. Is the line between "constructive criticism" and "boorish cad" drawn at posts that don't include positive remarks, or at posts that include nothing but positive remarks? (I'm aware that the tone-free medium of the internet allows that sentence to be read in a snotty tone of voice; such is not my intent. I'm honestly curious what the expectations are. I'm already aware that further posts should include a positive commendation to the author for their efforts, instead of just assuming that such is understood.)

it needs positivity, encouragment, before it can truly be shaped and molded by editing and consensus.

For the sake of argument, I would respectfully disagree that "consensus" is the way to judge whether writing is good or not. It's usually easier to grow as an artist if you simply find someone whose writing you respect - someone who clearly has a lot of talent, practice, and education on the subject - and ask them to tell you what you can be doing better. (I've already approached several people here whose work I admire with PM requests that they examine my vignettes for this reason.) A bunch of people who know you well and are concerned about hurting your feelings could say "Good work, I LOVED it," but this consensus never helps you realize what's wrong with your style.

And everyone has something wrong with their style. Published authors, even millionaire published authors*, even millionaire published authors whose books are fun to read**, can have glaring problems with their work. It's silly, not to mention the greatest of self-important attitudes, to pretend otherwise.


And KitchenSink, I just realized yours was the post I read last night. Thorough analysis incoming! :3



*Extremely poor characterization, stilted character development.
**Re-(and re- and re-)use of stale plot devices. Overuse of false-document technique.

This post has been edited by kementari: Jun 4 2008, 04:22 AM

[redsrock]

The only thing I know is I want feedback no matter how harsh. I mean, either way the ultimate thing that will help me as a writer, you know what I mean?

[kementari]

The only thing I know is I want feedback no matter how harsh. I mean, either way the ultimate thing that will help me as a writer, you know what I mean?

First, stop thinking of any criticism as "harsh". The only thing that can be harsh is tone, or delivery. Criticism is a subjective analysis of your work; taking it as "harsh" or not is entirely up to you.

[Kitchen.Sink]

For the sake of argument, I would respectfully disagree that "consensus" is the way to judge whether writing is good or not.

I could not agree more. Write for yourself. Post for those like yourself. Whether others are pleased or whether they are peeved by your work, it should make no difference. After all, conventionally "bad" writing can be all some anonymous reader needs to brighten an otherwise dreary day. What does a mountain of criticism matter to the mind that sees the "good" within the "bad"? Take it all in stride. If one feels the criticism to be off-key, then, by all means, ignore it. If one feels it to be spot-on, then, by all means, adapt and grow by it.

This is by no means a challenge to the old order of this board. I will graciously abide by the rules. It is simply an effort to help those that are self-conscious about their work to put things in perspective.

[redsrock]

Ok, fine, you got me, kementari. I meant tone and delivery.

[Black Hand]

Well, there are no 'rules' per se. More like a status quo that everyone was used to, and now that has changed. For better or worse. But, stepped toes aside, I think that as long as we are discussing, we are ironing out wrinkles.

The inevitable "is criticism bad for chorrol' question has come up. The answer in an objective view is no. A gem cannot be polished without friction. The real question is, "How well are people going to receive the change?" well, this discussion is part of the answer. So far, not so well.

I still stand by my consensus theory however, not so much because I am an attention mother of mine, (a little) but rather, I like to know that I am entertaining my audience. When people feel they are reading a good story, than I in turn am happy. When I receive the positive feedback, than I know people are responding well to my work, when readership drops off, then I know I am not doing so well. I do this for the fans as much as for myself. I could write stories for myself and hoard them on a word program or somesuch, but it seem pointless to me, I feel the need to share. What is the point of a finely prepared dinner that noone will partake in?

And this attitude I have influences my view on others as well, yes. If you have a story that you think is only okay, post it anyway dammit! It just might be the best darn thing posted here ever. You'll never know unless you take that risk, and the worst thing that will happen, is that people will say they dont like it. Oh well. (Yes double-speak, 'but you said..." The preceding was encouragement.)

PS:I wasnt calling YOU a boorish cad, kem, in case you took it as that. Far from it. You strike me as quite the scholar and gentleman after my nitfit....

[Agent Griff]

It would be awful to lose a member such as yourself Black Hand, especially since that would mean not being able to read up on the exploits of Sethyas Velas any more.

For my part, fair criticism can be taken as harsh criticism depending on the tone of delivery, but what is experience if not the sum of our mistakes? And who better to point out our mistakes than an observer of our actions? Thus I find criticism to be something necessary for all writers, both beginners and otherwise because otherwise we would not be able to discover our true ability.

But it truly seems that this recent competition has caused a surge of new members to join Chorrol, for good or for worse and as Black Hand says, our tight-knit community seems to be turning into a crowd. Growth need not be viewed in that light, since it can be a good thing in some cases. Some of these new members are already leaving, however (I saw a thread by someone called Paragenic saying that he/she was leaving Chorrol because he/she was fed up by the attitude of our forums).

I myself have not been active in the last few weeks (or should I say months?) because I've momentarily lost my interest in fan fiction and have been reading up on all things medieval and related to knights and the nobility.

[Kiln]

I still stand by my consensus theory however, not so much because I am an attention mother of mine, (a little) but rather, I like to know that I am entertaining my audience. When people feel they are reading a good story, than I in turn am happy. When I receive the positive feedback, than I know people are responding well to my work, when readership drops off, then I know I am not doing so well. I do this for the fans as much as for myself. I could write stories for myself and hoard them on a word program or somesuch, but it seem pointless to me, I feel the need to share. What is the point of a finely prepared dinner that noone will partake in?

My thoughts exactly Black Hand. I think that people should be able to share their work without fear of someone coming and cutting them down right afterwards. Don't get me wrong I think that critiques are great but its the delivery of which that can seem hostile and demeaning.

(I saw a thread by someone called Paragenic saying that he/she was leaving Chorrol because he/she was fed up by the attitude of our forums).

If you read what was going on in that thread carefully you'll see that Paragenic was being a bit dramatic by leaving the forums. More of a tantrum than anything I'd say.

[seerauna]

I did not join this forum just for the contest. (I came a month after it ended.)Actually, I joined for the fan fiction after I discovered the site when I got Oblivion. I know I'm a new member and I don't mean to intrude on your little community. I just thought I'd post some of my own stories here.

[redsrock]

Wonderful, I'd love to read them. One thing though, what kind of feedback would you like? I myself like the more critical type, but not too harsh of course.

What I'm saying is that I would love to try and give your some suggestions and advice, but if that is not what you want by all means tell me so.

[minque]

I just wish to say a few friendly words to the talented writers of this forum.

You all create good stories, some of you create excellent ones and some outstanding, all according to me and my taste. This is just me and my thoughts and shall be regarded as such ok?

I have my favourites, and I think you all have. For my part I'm especially fond of stories with a complicated intrigue, relations and descriptions of the characters. Quite a few of you fellow-writers has come up with just that kind of material.

@Redsrock: You are so productive! You have a lot of stories running and that impress me, since they are all of very high quality. Keep it up, you're doing great!

@Blackie: As I've mentioned in one of your story-threads I so admire your way with words! You also created a character who I'm terribly "in love" with, Sethyas Velas. I'm so glad I'm allowed to use him in my story, so thanks a lot for that. Now you also created another one, a woman, who I think is a fascinating one, I like her a lot. All in all I'm a steady reader of your work so keep 'em coming!

@treydog: You're the one who made me start writing! The inspiration your stories have brought me is immense. We all recognize the superior quality of your writing, so there are no more words to describe it. Hopefully we will see much more of your work.

@Mallie: You're outstanding when it comes to fighting and battle scenes! You know I think that, right? You know how to build up tension and your knowledge of weapon and the technique of fighting is remarkable.

@Mr Cloudy: What is said above goes for you as well! All of it!

@BSD-IES: A professional! You can tell by the way with words! I so wish I could be a tenth as good as you are ! Therefore I'm so happy when you post nice comments on my writing.

@All the rest of you writers: You are great! You put a lot of effort in your work and I never read a boring or bad story on these boards! So I sincerely hope you will continue and spread joy to us all, because that's what you're doing!


Thank you all writers for making me happy!!

[redsrock]

Thank you, Minque. You don't know how happy that makes me, especially coming from an excellent writer like yourself.