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> Going to the dark side...
Lady Saga
post Feb 13 2013, 04:24 PM
Post #21


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QUOTE(flowerboom @ Feb 13 2013, 09:08 AM) *

your suggesting that we get all our meat from hunting ? Thats logistically impossible .


Only because we humans colonize every square foot of space where natural animals used to dwell. We overpopulate our world, and force natural free-living animals into certain "niches". Natural animal populations decline, while billions of us live on (and keep on growing).

And mirocu has a valid point. An animal which has a chance to live in the wild has the better deal, in comparison to a domestic factory-farmed animal. At least the wild animal gets to live (perhaps enjoy) in its natural habitat before the hunter comes along. And the hunter has to deal with a number of variables as he or she stalks the prey. There is a chance for failure (the animal gets away) and if we're not talking guns or snares, there is also a lot of skill involved in hunting.

This post has been edited by Lady Saga: Feb 13 2013, 04:36 PM
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mirocu
post Feb 13 2013, 04:50 PM
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QUOTE(Lady Saga @ Feb 13 2013, 04:24 PM) *

There is a chance for failure (the animal gets away) and if we're not talking guns or snares, there is also a lot of skill involved in hunting.

It sure is. One has to stay awake for one thing! tongue.gif


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flowerboom
post Feb 13 2013, 05:02 PM
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Well it seems like everyone is jumping on me , that really friendly. Thanks.

Whatever the in's and outs of it are its not possible to feed demand , i DID NOT say mirocu didnt have a point . Unlike many im not rude and just troll over people , its not very friendly and i dont appreciate it .

The simple fact is 9/10 of people dont hunt and they get food produce from supermarkets and/or commercial shops , there are huge issues with this , Britain is currently in the grips of a horse meat scandal , given i own two horses , i find this disgusting and wrong . But thats how the world is , whatever you think of the world mirocu said that it didnt have to be that way . well in reality it does , we cant have billions of people hunting , you , lady saga , should be happy humans arnt wiping out natural land animals and that SOME of us are making an effort to conserve there habitat . I get fed up whenever somebody mentions "man" its such a generic term , not everybody want to ruin the world . I get kids driving to fast chucking mac donalds out on the road , the roads i WALK on , you think that does not make me angry ?

If i had said what MC had said i would of been trolled , its as simple as that .
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mALX
post Feb 13 2013, 05:11 PM
Post #24


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QUOTE(mirocu @ Feb 13 2013, 10:50 AM) *

QUOTE(Lady Saga @ Feb 13 2013, 04:24 PM) *

There is a chance for failure (the animal gets away) and if we're not talking guns or snares, there is also a lot of skill involved in hunting.

It sure is. One has to stay awake for one thing! tongue.gif



Lol! Here where I live there is a LOT of hunting. Surrounded by mountains and forests, lakes - a lot of hunting. (That is why I started breeding hunting dogs).

The hunters around here cover themselves in deer urine and set up either in a tree or brush and then wait it out till the prey is drawn in - and still sometimes the animals can smell the slightest human scent and are wary of the area. Lots of waiting time, and if they sleep they'll miss the game.

The dogs I breed are used for hunting boar/bear/etc. - heavy game.

This post has been edited by mALX: Feb 13 2013, 05:33 PM


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flowerboom
post Feb 13 2013, 05:17 PM
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OK no more hunting posts


This thread is completly de-railed , if you have a comment to make about hunting make a non-tes thread over in the allocated section .Otherwise stay on topic.

This post has been edited by flowerboom: Feb 13 2013, 05:17 PM
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Destri Melarg
post Feb 13 2013, 09:12 PM
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Interesting topic, and a lot of lively discussion. My two septims:

I personally can’t sustain an ‘evil’ character in any video game because most of the time what a game considers evil I just chalk up to being an a-hole. True evil is much harder to quantify because, as DE said, it is all subjective.

That doesn’t mean that I agree with the notion that ‘survival’ behooves a vampire (or werewolf) to put him/herself beyond the reach of morality. If said vampire (or werewolf) were born a vampire (or werewolf), and therefore not human, then that individual would have an argument. Catching a disease does not somehow lift one from moral obligation. Especially when the choice also exists to end one’s existence on the grounds that it endangers others.

Becoming a vampire does not make one evil. It simply makes one unfortunate. Choosing to remain one when a cure exists (except on the PS3), and then keeping people as live cattle simply to fulfill a selfish need for nourishment is morally wrong (and therefore, by definition, evil)... no matter how you try to justify it.


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Elisabeth Hollow
post Feb 13 2013, 09:20 PM
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QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Feb 13 2013, 02:12 PM) *

Interesting topic, and a lot of lively discussion. My two septims:

I personally can’t sustain an ‘evil’ character in any video game because most of the time what a game considers evil I just chalk up to being an a-hole. True evil is much harder to quantify because, as DE said, it is all subjective.

That doesn’t mean that I agree with the notion that ‘survival’ behooves a vampire (or werewolf) to put him/herself beyond the reach of morality. If said vampire (or werewolf) were born a vampire (or werewolf), and therefore not human, then that individual would have an argument. Catching a disease does not somehow lift one from moral obligation. Especially when the choice also exists to end one’s existence on the grounds that it endangers others.

Becoming a vampire does not make one evil. It simply makes one unfortunate. Choosing to remain one when a cure exists (except on the PS3), and then keeping people as live cattle simply to fulfill a selfish need for nourishment is morally wrong (and therefore, by definition, evil)... no matter how you try to justify it.

I'm inclined to agree.


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SubRosa
post Feb 13 2013, 10:27 PM
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I only rarely play characters who are evil. As Desti said, in most video games (the KOTOR games especially) the 'evil' route is usually just the selfish dickweed's path. And that is not what I have fun playing. One thing I like about the ES games, is that the open world tends to give you more room to roleplay your 'evilness'. That lets me play a character who might be a sadistic murderer, but not a prick, if that makes any sense.

For example, I did the Oblivion DB questline with Lilith Arcadia. Before the events of the game began, she was raped and left for dead by Rufio. This transformed her in an I Spit On Your Grave way. Afterward Lilith learned to fight and to kill. Moreover, she found that killing gave her a feeling of power. That overrode the feelings of helplessness she had been filled with after what Rufio had done to her. The more she killed, the more she liked it, and the less she cared who it was or why. Ultimately she became a pure murder machine, who killed for nothing but the sheer pleasure of it. That is why she did not flinch to kill the other members of the Sanctuary, and did not bat at eye at seeing Lucien's corpse.

It was an interesting roleplay, to the say the least, and took me to some very dark places. It was a powerful experience, but not especially pleasant.

The nearest I have come to that since was playing Helregin. She was an ordinary Nord living out in the wilderness. She was hunting and fishing in those parts for years. Her poaching never hurt no one, it's not like the Jarl could eat every deer after all. All that changed when she was infected with Vampirism. After turning, she found herself consumed by the desire to feed on mortals. Since I used the Better Vampires mod, she did not have to sneak up on people while they slept. She could feed off them after killing them. So she went on a killing spree across Skyrim, and whatever conscience she once possessed was drowned in a sea of hot blood. The more she killed, the more powerful her vampiric powers became (again, the mod), and the more powerful and special she felt. She very quickly came to view mortals as being objects, things that only existed for her to destroy. In her worldview, they had no other purpose.

Meeting Serana actually mellowed Helregin out a great deal. Serana awakened her ability to feel love once more, and taught her that she did not really need to kill every mortal she met. That is not to say that she went cold turkey. But for the first time she was able to conquer her blood lust, and walk past living people on the road without anyone dying.

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Feb 14 2013, 01:39 AM


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Destri Melarg
post Feb 14 2013, 12:35 AM
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QUOTE(SubRosa @ Feb 13 2013, 01:27 PM) *

... in most video games (the KOTOR games especially) the 'evil' route is usually just the selfish dickweed's path.

Okay this is much better than the way I put it! laugh.gif

Helregin sounds like an interesting character. I especially like the fact that she knew what she was doing was evil, but the power gained from doing it was too much to resist. It gives her much more depth than the simple 'look at me, I'm evil because I have various body parts strewn about my home' mythos that Bethesda's games too often give us.

That brings up a question that I would put to the rest of you: Why do vampires have to be so incredibly messy? The blood that's been drooled all over their clothing is food, after all. I like a good potato salad as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean that I smear it all over my face and clothes! Nor do I keep bits o' cow laying around the house for any visitor to find!


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mALX
post Feb 14 2013, 12:39 AM
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QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Feb 13 2013, 06:35 PM) *


That brings up a question that I would put to the rest of you: Why do vampires have to be so incredibly messy? The blood that's been drooled all over their clothing is food, after all. I like a good potato salad as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean that I smear it all over my face and clothes! Nor do I keep bits o' cow laying around the house for any visitor to find!



SPEW! (and URGH!)



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Darkness Eternal
post Feb 14 2013, 01:00 AM
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QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Feb 14 2013, 12:35 AM) *

That brings up a question that I would put to the rest of you: Why do vampires have to be so incredibly messy? The blood that's been drooled all over their clothing is food, after all. I like a good potato salad as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean that I smear it all over my face and clothes! Nor do I keep bits o' cow laying around the house for any visitor to find!

Not all vampires. Just the ones from Skyrim. Daggerfall. Morrowind and everywhere else except Cyrodiil. At least in the Imperial province they have table manners.


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And yet I am, and live—like vapours tossed.
I long for scenes where man hath never trod
A place where woman never smiled or wept
There to abide with my Creator, God,
And sleep as I in childhood sweetly slept,
Untroubling and untroubled where I lie
The grass below—above the vaulted sky.”
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SubRosa
post Feb 14 2013, 01:56 AM
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QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Feb 13 2013, 06:35 PM) *

Helregin sounds like an interesting character. I especially like the fact that she knew what she was doing was evil, but the power gained from doing it was too much to resist. It gives her much more depth than the simple 'look at me, I'm evil because I have various body parts strewn about my home' mythos that Bethesda's games too often give us.


I am not especially fond of terms like good and evil, because as it has been so well stated, those ideas are entirely subjective. For all of my life I have had people calling me evil because I am not attracted to the same people they are, or believe in the same religion they do. Likewise studying history quickly reveals that everyone immediately decries anyone else they do not like as evil. That helps me to see the hypocrisy that often lies behind these terms.

Instead I prefer to view things through a lens of positive and negative. Some people do very positive things for the world. Some people do very negative ones. Most tend to cause a mix. But there are certain few folks who are so utterly negative in their behavior that I can find no excuse for it. These are people who are incapable of feeling empathy for others, and whose actions are purely based upon their own convenience, with no concern for the harm they do for others. In other words, sociopaths. Or people who have so beaten down and obfuscated their consciences with self-deception and rationalizations that they might just as well be sociopaths as far as their behavior is concerned. Serial killers are good examples of the first. Religious zealots who have no qualms about torturing and murdering others of different religions are stunning examples of the second type. So I base my 'evil' characters upon this sort of person. Someone who is utterly selfish and caught up in their own desires, and completely incapable of feeling empathy for others.



QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Feb 13 2013, 06:35 PM) *

That brings up a question that I would put to the rest of you: Why do vampires have to be so incredibly messy? The blood that's been drooled all over their clothing is food, after all. I like a good potato salad as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean that I smear it all over my face and clothes! Nor do I keep bits o' cow laying around the house for any visitor to find!

I know! It is such a waste of good food! If I spend $15 on a pizza, there is no way I am throwing half of it on the floor! Vampires are like that in films too. They are always getting blood all over their faces and torsos. It seems like it goes everywhere but their innards. Haven't any of them ever heard of a straw for goodness sake?

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Feb 14 2013, 02:00 AM


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King Coin
post Feb 14 2013, 05:16 AM
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QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Feb 13 2013, 05:35 PM) *

That brings up a question that I would put to the rest of you: Why do vampires have to be so incredibly messy? The blood that's been drooled all over their clothing is food, after all. I like a good potato salad as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean that I smear it all over my face and clothes! Nor do I keep bits o' cow laying around the house for any visitor to find!

This kid likes his pudding a lot. Must be a vampire.


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SubRosa
post Feb 14 2013, 07:02 AM
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QUOTE(King Coin @ Feb 13 2013, 11:16 PM) *

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Feb 13 2013, 05:35 PM) *

That brings up a question that I would put to the rest of you: Why do vampires have to be so incredibly messy? The blood that's been drooled all over their clothing is food, after all. I like a good potato salad as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean that I smear it all over my face and clothes! Nor do I keep bits o' cow laying around the house for any visitor to find!

This kid likes his pudding a lot. Must be a vampire.

Are you sure that is pudding? blink.gif


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Elisabeth Hollow
post Feb 14 2013, 07:05 AM
Post #35


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QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Feb 13 2013, 05:35 PM) *

That brings up a question that I would put to the rest of you: Why do vampires have to be so incredibly messy? The blood that's been drooled all over their clothing is food, after all. I like a good potato salad as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean that I smear it all over my face and clothes! Nor do I keep bits o' cow laying around the house for any visitor to find!

Ohh... that's not normal?

-shuffles bits of deer and cow carcass under bed nonchalantly-


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Darkness Eternal
post Feb 14 2013, 07:30 AM
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QUOTE(SubRosa @ Feb 14 2013, 01:56 AM) *


I am not especially fond of terms like good and evil, because as it has been so well stated, those ideas are entirely subjective. For all of my life I have had people calling me evil because I am not attracted to the same people they are, or believe in the same religion they do. Likewise studying history quickly reveals that everyone immediately decries anyone else they do not like as evil. That helps me to see the hypocrisy that often lies behind these terms.

Instead I prefer to view things through a lens of positive and negative. Some people do very positive things for the world. Some people do very negative ones. Most tend to cause a mix. But there are certain few folks who are so utterly negative in their behavior that I can find no excuse for it. These are people who are incapable of feeling empathy for others, and whose actions are purely based upon their own convenience, with no concern for the harm they do for others. In other words, sociopaths. Or people who have so beaten down and obfuscated their consciences with self-deception and rationalizations that they might just as well be sociopaths as far as their behavior is concerned. Serial killers are good examples of the first. Religious zealots who have no qualms about torturing and murdering others of different religions are stunning examples of the second type. So I base my 'evil' characters upon this sort of person. Someone who is utterly selfish and caught up in their own desires, and completely incapable of feeling empathy for others.

Are you a female version of myself, SubRosa?

This post has been edited by Darkness Eternal: Feb 14 2013, 07:31 AM


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And yet I am, and live—like vapours tossed.
I long for scenes where man hath never trod
A place where woman never smiled or wept
There to abide with my Creator, God,
And sleep as I in childhood sweetly slept,
Untroubling and untroubled where I lie
The grass below—above the vaulted sky.”
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Colonel Mustard
post Feb 14 2013, 12:55 PM
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When I think about it, I don't think I've actually played a TES character who has been properly, properly evil at any point, really. Not sure why, but there we go. I think the closest I ever came was with a Dark Elf assassin/thief character I played, who I did the entirety of the Dark Brotherhood and Thieve's Guild questline with; with her, however, she generally didn't do it for any sense of the thrill of killing or anything like that, but instead because it was something that she was good at and it paid well. She would go to the location, find the target and eliminate them, just like that, driven by a sort of cold, dispassionate professionalism; so long as she didn't form any kind of attachment to the target she simply didn't care for them, and their deaths were simply for the sake of profit. On one hand, it was heartless to the point of being sociopathic, but on the other it was always as clean and quiet as possible; she actually found it rather difficult to do the whole 'cleanse the sanctuary' thing because she'd got to know the rest of the Brotherhood members there, but when she found out she'd accidentally wiped out half of her organisation she didn't feel that bad because she never knew those targets and felt no bond towards them.

That was probably the closest I came to being overtly evil in a TES game, but it's kind of tricky to be a proper, proper bad guy in those games; aside from the Dark Brotherhood, there isn't really an overtly 'evil' faction about. In the Fallout games, on the other hand, I find it much easier to be a puppy-kicking, town-burning, raider-fistbumping, complete monster who makes babies cry just by looking at them. I think it's because Fallout lets you style your character's hair into a mohawk, for as we all know, in post-apocalyptic settings people with mohawks are evil! tongue.gif
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mirocu
post Feb 14 2013, 04:54 PM
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QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Feb 14 2013, 12:35 AM) *

That brings up a question that I would put to the rest of you: Why do vampires have to be so incredibly messy? The blood that's been drooled all over their clothing is food, after all. I like a good potato salad as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean that I smear it all over my face and clothes! Nor do I keep bits o' cow laying around the house for any visitor to find!

I have often had these exact thoughts myself, it doesn´t make any sense does it? Nor would I ever grin at my potato salad and shove it down with an evil smile on my face.

Man, vamps are weird, arent they? blink.gif


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I am the master of my fate,
I am the captain of my soul.
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Grits
post Feb 14 2013, 05:09 PM
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I like to play characters who experience conflict with their own values. That might be a knight who justifies becoming a werewolf but then slides into moral decline while denying her own wrongdoing. A reluctant vampire who stays in a blood-starved state but still lives in proximity to people knowing that she is a danger to them. Another vampire who can’t control her hunger enough to go without blood, but only feeds on the man she loves even though she fears it will turn him too. (She didn’t have the uesp to look up these things.) They are hypocrites to some extent, and coming to terms with that within the context of their external challenges (dragons, war, spouse wants a bigger house, alchemist’s bill to pay) makes them interesting to me. Even my shining knights have personality traits that are less than stellar. Vanity mostly, or selfishness that they justify as being their reward for good deeds.

I also enjoy the ones who act according to their own beliefs though their values are not the same as mine. The thief who believed that emptying rich peoples’ houses showed them the value of what he had not taken (their sleeping families’ lives). Or the assassin who believed that he was granting peace to his targets since they were carefully chosen by the Night Mother.

The remorseless a-holes just don’t last long with me. This would be the ones who know they are supposed to obey the laws of the land, but they just don’t care for whatever reason. Within their context they’re not evil, since their values don’t prohibit anti-social behavior. Within my values they are evil, but worse (because this is for my entertainment) they are boring.

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Feb 13 2013, 06:35 PM) *

That brings up a question that I would put to the rest of you: Why do vampires have to be so incredibly messy? The blood that's been drooled all over their clothing is food, after all. I like a good potato salad as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean that I smear it all over my face and clothes! Nor do I keep bits o' cow laying around the house for any visitor to find!

Lol. I am reminded of how a certain friend eats chicken wings. It looks like a feeding rather than a meal. I will never again take him to a wing joint on game night! There are not enough pitchers in the world to wash away the shame!

But seriously, maybe the blood drooling is a symptom of lustful attack rather than civilized feeding. There is a location in the northern province that I will not mention where it looks like the aftermath of a vampire food fight rather than a high court. I found it disappointing. To me the blood-soaked dwellings should be feral nests, not the places where people who should have refined their behavior over a thousand years live. I mean in my terms the blood should be as precious as, say, homemade gravy. Anyone who splashes my gravy all over their shirt does not get seconds!!


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mALX
post Feb 14 2013, 08:55 PM
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QUOTE(Grits @ Feb 14 2013, 11:09 AM) *

I like to play characters who experience conflict with their own values. That might be a knight who justifies becoming a werewolf but then slides into moral decline while denying her own wrongdoing. A reluctant vampire who stays in a blood-starved state but still lives in proximity to people knowing that she is a danger to them. Another vampire who can’t control her hunger enough to go without blood, but only feeds on the man she loves even though she fears it will turn him too. (She didn’t have the uesp to look up these things.) They are hypocrites to some extent, and coming to terms with that within the context of their external challenges (dragons, war, spouse wants a bigger house, alchemist’s bill to pay) makes them interesting to me. Even my shining knights have personality traits that are less than stellar. Vanity mostly, or selfishness that they justify as being their reward for good deeds.

I also enjoy the ones who act according to their own beliefs though their values are not the same as mine. The thief who believed that emptying rich peoples’ houses showed them the value of what he had not taken (their sleeping families’ lives). Or the assassin who believed that he was granting peace to his targets since they were carefully chosen by the Night Mother.

The remorseless a-holes just don’t last long with me. This would be the ones who know they are supposed to obey the laws of the land, but they just don’t care for whatever reason. Within their context they’re not evil, since their values don’t prohibit anti-social behavior. Within my values they are evil, but worse (because this is for my entertainment) they are boring.

QUOTE(Destri Melarg @ Feb 13 2013, 06:35 PM) *

That brings up a question that I would put to the rest of you: Why do vampires have to be so incredibly messy? The blood that's been drooled all over their clothing is food, after all. I like a good potato salad as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean that I smear it all over my face and clothes! Nor do I keep bits o' cow laying around the house for any visitor to find!

Lol. I am reminded of how a certain friend eats chicken wings. It looks like a feeding rather than a meal. I will never again take him to a wing joint on game night! There are not enough pitchers in the world to wash away the shame!

But seriously, maybe the blood drooling is a symptom of lustful attack rather than civilized feeding. There is a location in the northern province that I will not mention where it looks like the aftermath of a vampire food fight rather than a high court. I found it disappointing. To me the blood-soaked dwellings should be feral nests, not the places where people who should have refined their behavior over a thousand years live. I mean in my terms the blood should be as precious as, say, homemade gravy. Anyone who splashes my gravy all over their shirt does not get seconds!!





There is so much I agree with here! Especially in stories where the protagonist is a vampire or werewolf - they have to have interesting personalities that draw people to the character and make them want to keep reading.

If the character is wholly devoid of any personality but their dark side, (emotionless/cold/distant/brooding/antisocial/sociopathic/egocentric/etc) - where is the interest?

Even their bloodlust can’t be described too often without losing interest or impact. After the first descriptive “feeding” takes place; additional gore-fests can only be reiterations of the same thing.

That boils down to boring because that is all they offer is that flat, one-note darkness (or as Mustard would say, “Moustache twirlers”). You can’t love the character, or even hate them. The only emotion they can bring is apathy.

(Exactly the same as the polar opposite - perfect characters whose lack of flaws or erroneous decisions and excess of virtuosity leaves them eye-rollingly shining and uber).

To me, the attacking indiscriminately/wild orgies of feasting and egocentric sociopathic existences - that correlates with the mindless feral vampires that are no more than animalistic beasts one finds in feral vampire dungeons in Tamriel. They can't be protagonists because they have no personality. They can't hold the reader's attention because they are one-note.

While the vampire's beast within can be compared to the feral nature of a leopard or lion - that isn't the whole makeup of either. The lion/leopard loves, rolls, plays, enjoys other things in life besides the hunt - that hunt is for survival, to feed the hunger of itself and its pride. Other than that hunt, they are social, loyal, protective, affectionate, and playful within their group.

That is how I see the ancient vampires, a part of a social order. Most especially, they should personify the ability to smoothly function socially, as they stand for “the elite” in vampires. They should have abundant charisma from the “vampire charm” they exude. They should have the ability to walk a fine line between society and the seduction of their nature without it being discernable to those around them (so only their victims see that dark side and know for sure it is there). If anything, their personality should be more drawing than other characters, more enticing.

New ancient vampires - I would expect a struggle between the human they were and the nature and bloodlust they haven’t yet learned to garner control over; but surely by the first half century they would learn to balance out the human side of them with the beast and develop the finesse one would expect from these “noble” ancient vampire lines.


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This post has been edited by mALX: Feb 15 2013, 12:58 AM


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