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Chorrol.com _ Skyrim Mods _ Skyrim Workshop Now Supports Paid Mods

Posted by: Acadian Apr 24 2015, 03:45 AM

Gstaff, of Bethesda, announced on the Bethesda forum that Skyrim Workshop Now Supports Paid Mods. Here's the http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1516783-skyrim-workshop-now-supports-paid-mods/.

To say the reaction there has been underwhelming is a massive understatement. If I spend more than a moment pondering unintended consequences and pitfalls, I’m afraid I must agree with the ominous implications this has for the future of modding. A ton of posts on that thread already beat up the subject pretty well.

I confess I prefer as little to do with Steam as possible and have never touched their 'workshop'. I get my mods from Nexus, but the implications are disturbing - even for private hobby modders. Naturally, Steam is taking a big cut of all proceeds. Does this mean that for future games, the CK/CS will only be made available to 'for profit' Steam workshoppers? This seems to validate the concerns many of us have about Steam and their ability to control what you thought you paid for.

Posted by: ghastley Apr 24 2015, 03:55 AM

As I already mentioned on the Mods thread at Bethsoft my other worry is that anything I produce will be copied and sold as someone else's work. It will be my responsibility to watch their site and complain if anyone does so. as they won't do anything on their own. Given their lack of reaction to complaints when it was free, and the fact that they'll lose money by taking my side ...

I don't think we'll ever see the CK unavailable without contributions to their stock of mods, as the process has to start with downloading that, but it might come with a "no upload elsewhere" clause in the EULA. Similarly, I don't (yet) see how they'll prevent us using mods that didn't come from Steam, or we'd never be able to develop new ones for them. But I do expect some action to try and eliminate the free completion from the Nexus.

Posted by: mirocu Apr 24 2015, 09:29 AM

This is why I never support Steam or anything like it; even if they don´t do anything to begin with, they can control the purchase you made, effectively turning your purchase into a rental which it really was to begin with anyway.


Eventually, if this gets a good foothold, they can criminalize the whole free modding community, forcing you to pay even for unofficial patches that are essential or other mods that helps with problems like the abomb. While some point and laugh and call it a conspiracy theory, I don´t laugh particularly loud. Step by step they take away what is rightfully ours and because they do it step by step, many don´t see the full picture before it´s too late.

Posted by: Grits Apr 24 2015, 10:30 AM

Well, the other shoe has dropped. This explains some of the activity last week on the Nexus from mod authors who had paid new versions of their mods about to be released. Chesko wrote an open letter to the community that can be found here: https://www.evernote.com/shard/s53/sh/3c4f3e29-9b4e-41cf-9a72-1b3ed9f70c62/c727dccbb3398aebb5946afac7faaaea. I think it’s worth the time to read it.

Mod theft is certainly a concern, since the attention will go toward trying to control people who are pirating the paid mods rather than defending the folks who are not profit sources. Though as long as mods are offered for free, I wonder how many idiots will pay first without searching for a free version. It seems that a good defense against theft is to continue to offer free mods.

I’m most concerned about what will happen to the spirit of various modding communities. I’ve benefited tremendously from people selflessly offering classes, advice, and resources in the interest of encouraging standards among new modders. Now that everyone is a potential competitor, it does seem like the sky is falling on that.

The thing is, though, this has happened. It will take time for the market to settle. Paying for mods certainly helps clarify which ones are actually “essential.” The thing that makes me palm my face the most is the cheerful advice on Steam to try new mods for 24 hours before you buy them, and the bundles for sale that I’m sure few users will research before installing the lot. I mean, have they forgotten how fragile this game is? Yikes!

Best of luck to the mod authors who just became game developers on the Steam workshop. Now your ungrateful, demanding, entitled users are your paying customers. Reap the whirlwind. laugh.gif

Posted by: mirocu Apr 24 2015, 10:42 AM

Yeah, this is yet another terrible idea in the line of terrible ideas. Frankly I don´t see myself ever getting a new Bethesda game again. If I can´t even fix the basic stuff without paying even more, then I am bye-bye. I have fixed so many issues between Morrowind, Oblivion and Fallout 3 and if I had to pay for all of it I´d be pi.... angry.

Posted by: Grits Apr 24 2015, 11:51 AM

There are some amusing responses from modders already, such as the “Give Me Money For No Reason” mod on the Nexus which adds the well-dressed beggar Beth to the game, and the “Extra Apple” mod for $29.99 (adds an apple to the counter at the Bannered Mare) still under review at the Steam Workshop.

Posted by: mirocu Apr 24 2015, 11:52 AM

rollinglaugh.gif rollinglaugh.gif

Posted by: Grits Apr 24 2015, 01:10 PM

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/articles/50134/ is a statement from isoku.


Posted by: Acadian Apr 24 2015, 02:35 PM

I'll never pay for a mod any more than I would pay to read a fan fiction - and the work involved in both is massive. Modding and fanfic are hobbies. If you don't enjoy the work don't do it. If you want to get paid for it, apply for a job at a game company or publisher.

That said, I'm used to blanket avoiding certain mods for various reasons. For example, I never got along with COBL so any OB mod that required it simply 'didn't exist'. So it is with other mods that look complex or have a list of prerequisite mods.

I have no doubt that the free modding community will continue as long as allowed. Fantastic modders like SubRosa will continue to make changes to her game and likely offer them up to her friends informally at places like chorrol. Those of us who are not so skilled at modding will continue to seek help from smart folks here like ghastley in our attempts to make our own simple mods or work out tweaks to existing mods.

My concern is the future of the CS/CK for newer games. Just as pay to pay flopped for ESO, I expect pay to mod will flop as well. Will the response be to change the CS/CK for future games so that any output from it can only be sold on Steam? If so, we may all end up joining SubRosa playing GoG games like Baldur's Gate I or joining mirocu playing pokemon. laugh.gif

Posted by: SubRosa Apr 24 2015, 02:40 PM

I first http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/news/12444/, and it still disturbs me. I think it is a very bad thing for the modding community, on many levels. Ultimately I see it curtailing mod use, and probably even game sales.

Still, on one hand I can understand the reasoning by people who would like some compensation for their modding efforts. I have literally spent thousands of hours working on mods for various games. Everyone else is making money from games, and from the mods we create. So why are we cut out of the loop? Don't we modders deserve a fair slice of that pie?

My answer is something that Chesko illuminated in his/her open letter that Grits linked to above. Chesko rightly says that they don't have an endless well of time to work on mods. Modding means taking time away from spending time with family and friends, from the day job, from improving the skills they need for their day job, etc... So to justify taking that time away from these other things, money is required. There it is, the pink elephant in the room: Greed. Well, that is not my bottom line. I did not spend those thousands of hours modding to get rich. I did it because I love it. The effort I put in, and what created, is its own reward, and I do not regret a single minute spent. Sometimes I even feel like sharing with others, and I will never demand or ask for money for my mods.

Note to self: never download anything by Chesko, and scan my mod order to delete anything of theirs I might have now. Done, I didn't have anything of theirs.

QUOTE

Please don’t be evil.

Gosh, how come no one ever mentioned this to John Wayne Gacy, or Jeffery Dahlmer, or Bill Gates?


QUOTE(ghastley @ Apr 23 2015, 10:55 PM) *

As I already mentioned on the Mods thread at Bethsoft my other worry is that anything I produce will be copied and sold as someone else's work. It will be my responsibility to watch their site and complain if anyone does so. as they won't do anything on their own. Given their lack of reaction to complaints when it was free, and the fact that they'll lose money by taking my side ...

My concern is being accused of plagarism when it is untrue. There are some things that can only be done a certain way. So if one person releases a mod that makes wards use less magicka, and I create one myself, am I going to be sued for stealing the idea? Are people going to patent or copyright mods now, to protect their intellectual property?

There are many of my mods that I won't release now, simply because I saw another mod and thought "I can do that". Often I take it many steps further than the original I saw. But I still expect to be attacked in the community for stealing another person's work. Adding money to the mix is not going to make things better. It never makes things better.


QUOTE(Grits @ Apr 24 2015, 05:30 AM) *

Though as long as mods are offered for free, I wonder how many idiots will pay first without searching for a free version. It seems that a good defense against theft is to continue to offer free mods.

This is the internets we are talking about. Idiocracy is the foundation of the world wide web. Heck, look at all of us who actually paid for Skyrim and Oblivion, when we could have simply downloaded a pirated copy for free? Well, maybe we are not idiots, but rather just honest. But the truth is everything on the internet that is even slightly interesting can be gotten this way. I wonder how long it will be until we start seeing torrents of for-pay mods?

QUOTE(Grits @ Apr 24 2015, 05:30 AM) *

The thing is, though, this has happened. It will take time for the market to settle. Paying for mods certainly helps clarify which ones are actually “essential.” The thing that makes me palm my face the most is the cheerful advice on Steam to try new mods for 24 hours before you buy them, and the bundles for sale that I’m sure few users will research before installing the lot. I mean, have they forgotten how fragile this game is? Yikes!

I cannot count how many times I had downloaded a mod that I thought looked interesting, installed it, took one look at how the armor/sword/thingie actually looked in my game, and said https://youtu.be/i6q-6RroaJA Even the ones that pass initial muster often sit unused for months, or even years, just because I did not have a character that would use that particular thing. Out of every ten mods I download, I probably only actually ever use one. If I have to pay for them, I will never download them in the first place.

QUOTE(Grits @ Apr 24 2015, 05:30 AM) *

Best of luck to the mod authors who just became game developers on the Steam workshop. Now your ungrateful, demanding, entitled users are your paying customers. Reap the whirlwind. laugh.gif

Honestly, this is a major reason I do not release more of the mods I make, and why I usually ignore the comments sections of the ones I do. Which I will never charge for.

QUOTE(Grits @ Apr 24 2015, 06:51 AM) *

There are some amusing responses from modders already, such as the “Give Me Money For No Reason” mod on the Nexus which adds the well-dressed beggar Beth to the game, and the “Extra Apple” mod for $29.99 (adds an apple to the counter at the Bannered Mare) still under review at the Steam Workshop.

The internet FTW!

QUOTE(Acadian @ Apr 24 2015, 09:35 AM) *

If so, we may all end up joining SubRosa playing GoG games like Baldur's Gate I or joining mirocu playing pokemon. laugh.gif

Come to the Gog side. We have cake!

Posted by: mirocu Apr 24 2015, 04:19 PM

"Joining mirocu playing Pokemon"?


I don´t think I´ve ever been that insulted before... I´VE NEVER PLAYED THE [censored] THING!! laugh.gif

Posted by: Grits Apr 24 2015, 04:21 PM

Aand the Nexus is down. I think I'll play some Oblivion while I ride out the poop-storm. Or maybe write some fan fiction while that's still free! laugh.gif

Posted by: mirocu Apr 24 2015, 04:30 PM

You know, Grits... You should make us pay for reading it... tongue.gif

Posted by: SubRosa Apr 24 2015, 04:36 PM

QUOTE(Grits @ Apr 24 2015, 11:21 AM) *

Aand the Nexus is down.

Gee, the only major site that still allows mods to be distributed for free? Conspiracy? Of course not! I am sure it was a coincidence that a team of armed men all wearing "Valve or Die" shirts all burst into the Nexus data center and blew it up.

But, it's not down for me. Perhaps you have been naughty Grits. Are you collaborating with those evil Steam Workshoppers? nono.gif wink.gif devilsmile.gif

Posted by: ghastley Apr 24 2015, 04:37 PM

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Apr 24 2015, 09:40 AM) *

My concern is being accused of plagarism when it is untrue.


I've had that already. I was accused of stealing content from a mod for another game. And it was true. I had modded that other game. kvleft.gif I suspect that situation may become one of the sore points in this, too.

P.S. http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/news/12454

Posted by: Grits Apr 24 2015, 04:40 PM

Ha ha, I’m sure I’m not… Hang on, someone’s at the door.

*crash*

*BAM*

Grits is dragged away by hooded thugs


It's back up for me now, too. But I'm all out of popcorn.

Posted by: ghastley Apr 24 2015, 04:50 PM

The Dark One makes a good point about plagiarism in his latest. Now I need to purchase anything I think contains my content, so I can check if it really does, and I'll never see that money back, because refunds are only as store credit.

Posted by: mirocu Apr 24 2015, 04:50 PM

We can no longer trust any post made by the member called "Grits"... emot-ninja1.gif

Posted by: SubRosa Apr 24 2015, 04:51 PM

And one of my predictions I made in my first post came true. I just Googled Frostfall + torrent, and see a slew of pirated copies of it. Yaarrrr, the pirates strike! laugh.gif

Posted by: Grits Apr 24 2015, 04:57 PM

QUOTE(ghastley @ Apr 24 2015, 11:50 AM) *

The Dark One makes a good point about plagiarism in his latest. Now I need to purchase anything I think contains my content, so I can check if it really does, and I'll never see that money back, because refunds are only as store credit.

That stood out for me, too. In every case it’s moneymaker for Valve and Bethesda.

Posted by: Acadian Apr 24 2015, 05:13 PM

I wonder who the real culprit here is?

Mod users obviously hate the idea of pay for mods.

Mod makers, based on the torrent of comments on numerous threads certainly seem, overall, opposed as well.

Bethesda has to realize that one of the biggest draws to the TES games are that, while they do not make a perfect game (no one does), they freely offer their tools (CS/CK) so players can make the game quite a bit closer to their individual view of ‘perfect’. Like many many others, if I could not tweak these games, I would not play them. How many PC copies has Bethesda sold because buyers knew they could easily and freely mod the game to suit their purpose. It seems clear that paying for mods will hurt the sale of Bethesda’s games – just like paying to play ESO hurt those sales. I'm reluctant to believe that Bethesda is dumb enough to not see the downside to sales here.

So who is left that could be behind this bad idea? Who, seriously, could possibly want this? My guess is Steam. Have they become enough of an 800 pound gorilla to now dictate conditions to players, modders and even developers?

Posted by: haute ecole rider Apr 24 2015, 05:34 PM

Like SubRosa, I first read about this over on the Nexus site. I have mixed feelings about the recent move to a curated workshop.

First off, I enjoy the hard work of modders like Chesko and Hothtrooper, AFK, Arthmoor and AlienSlof who put a great deal of work and detail into their mods. I may not use every feature, but that does not mean I appreciate their skill and knowledge any less. If they put a large amount of time and care into crafting these mods, shouldn't they be compensated for it? I don't necessarily see it as greed. After all, I'm asked for free veterinary advice all the time. But do I give it away for free? No. Simply because I worked so hard for that degree, and I am still paying off the student loan debt I ran up, I expect to be compensated for my knowledge.

But these guys are doing it as a hobby, because they love the game! some will argue. It sounds uncomfortably close to the arguments I've heard from pet owners in the past - But you love animals! Shouldn't you treat them for free? Does that mean my knowledge (and these modders') have no value in this society? Does that mean you appreciate my work more? Or does that mean you get to use it up and cast it aside (and believe me, I've had my share of ungrateful clients)?

Am I willing to pay for their mods? At this point, I am not sure. I'm a big fan of freebies, but I'm also aware of Heinlein's Basic Principle: There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch (TANSTAAFL). Someone somewhere pays the cost for a product or a service that we consume. When mods are free, the cost is paid for by the modder, in terms of opportunity cost (the cost of their time which could be spent doing other things). For me, it's one thing to do it for yourself and maybe a few friends (as SubRosa does with her mods), but if I'm going to put it out there for general consumption, I would prefer to be compensated to some degree for my work and effort. I wouldn't expect to get rich off of this, but even if I make just enough each month to pay for one tank of gas in my car, that would be fine.

That said, I do not think the Steam Workshop is the place for it. For one thing, the way the fee structure works, modders are being ripped off.

QUOTE
The mod may or may not be accepted, but if it is, the mod author will receive a 25% cut (Valve take 75%) of any revenue generated from the sale of the mod.
(from http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/news/12444/? at the Nexus) Why does Valve get to reap the profits of modders' hard work?

Let's take an example that applies directly to me. I've thought about self-publishing e-books through Apple's iBooks. If I went that route, and decided to sell my stories through this forum, Apple would take 30% and I take 70% of the book's sale price. I believe Amazon takes a smaller cut if you sell through their Kindle forum. Either way, I, the author, profits from the sales of my imagination and creativity. I'm basically paying Apple and Amazon for the use of their forums to sell my products.

Using this as a basis for comparison, I find it extremely difficult to believe that Valve's terms are fair to modders. Umm, no.

There is also the thorny issue of who pays the modders whose work is being used in the paid mods? How is the income in sales distributed among the different modders? If I took Hothtrooper's Warchief Armor mod and incorporated that into my own mod, then put said mod up for sale on the Steam Workshop, who is responsible for compensating Hothtrooper for his work? Or do I have to have a written form from Hothtrooper giving me the rights to use his mod as I see fit?

There are too many issues and too many questions not being answered by Valve (and Bethsoft, for that matter) that I won't be paying for those mods anytime soon. I have yet to download a mod from Steam Workshop - simply because I do not feel that site is as well maintained or (dare I say it) policed as the Nexus is. I just can't support a framework that is so blatantly in favor of corporate greed (as opposed to modder's greed blink.gif).

Like Grits said, it's happened. And it's going to take some time for the dust to settle down. I'm going to hang back and wait to see what happens. I'm not in a hurry to buy any more Bethsoft games. I'm happy enough playing Oblivion and Skyrim - I don't feel the need to get into more. My spare time is tight enough that I don't need more games to fill those hours (more like minutes).

Posted by: ghastley Apr 24 2015, 05:39 PM

QUOTE(Acadian @ Apr 24 2015, 12:13 PM) *

Steam. Have they become enough of an 800 pound gorilla to now dictate conditions to players, modders and even developers?


They already were when Skyrim became available only through Steam. Yes, you could buy a disk, but Steam controlled whether you could play.

The worst part of this doing it after the game is released, so that mods have already been developed on a "strictly for free" basis, and then changing the rules. It might have been acceptable for a new game, as you'd know before creating a mod that it would be monetized, and then you probably wouldn't release it, just keep it for your own use.

Posted by: mirocu Apr 24 2015, 05:41 PM

It is a tough debate, I admit. But if we go there, where will it stop? One could debate that mods in places like this forum should be paid and that the members have to pay since they use their services. After all, they do a lot of free work too.




Posted by: SubRosa Apr 24 2015, 06:03 PM

QUOTE(Grits @ Apr 24 2015, 11:57 AM) *

QUOTE(ghastley @ Apr 24 2015, 11:50 AM) *

The Dark One makes a good point about plagiarism in his latest. Now I need to purchase anything I think contains my content, so I can check if it really does, and I'll never see that money back, because refunds are only as store credit.

That stood out for me, too. In every case it’s moneymaker for Valve and Bethesda.

It was glaring to me as well. So to was the fact that on day one a for-pay mod was already struck down for plagarism.

QUOTE(Acadian @ Apr 24 2015, 12:13 PM) *

I wonder who the real culprit here is?

Mod users obviously hate the idea of pay for mods.

Mod makers, based on the torrent of comments on numerous threads certainly seem, overall, opposed as well.

Bethesda has to realize that one of the biggest draws to the TES games are that, while they do not make a perfect game (no one does), they freely offer their tools (CS/CK) so players can make the game quite a bit closer to their individual view of ‘perfect’. Like many many others, if I could not tweak these games, I would not play them. How many PC copies has Bethesda sold because buyers knew they could easily and freely mod the game to suit their purpose. It seems clear that paying for mods will hurt the sale of Bethesda’s games – just like paying to play ESO hurt those sales. I'm reluctant to believe that Bethesda is dumb enough to not see the downside to sales here.

So who is left that could be behind this bad idea? Who, seriously, could possibly want this? My guess is Steam. Have they become enough of an 800 pound gorilla to now dictate conditions to players, modders and even developers?

The cuprits are Bethesda and Valve (who own and run Steam). Bethesda gets part of the money for these sales, and Valve most of it. As ghastley noted, even when a modder proves his work was stolen by someone else for profit, they receive store credit on Steam by way of compensation. Basically they try to make up for it by giving you something else for free. The actual money though, always stays with Valve and Bethesda.

Posted by: Acadian Apr 24 2015, 06:04 PM

QUOTE(mirocu @ Apr 24 2015, 09:41 AM) *

It is a tough debate, I admit. But if we go there, where will it stop? One could debate that mods in places like this forum should be paid and that the members have to pay since they use their services. After all, they do a lot of free work too.


I hope stargelman reads this and gives us mods a raise! laugh.gif

Posted by: ghastley Apr 24 2015, 06:06 PM

Would double your current rate make a difference? biggrin.gif

Posted by: Acadian Apr 24 2015, 06:11 PM

QUOTE(ghastley @ Apr 24 2015, 10:06 AM) *

Would double your current rate make a difference? biggrin.gif


00 Septims is a lots more that 0 Septims. . . isn't it?

Posted by: Grits Apr 24 2015, 07:40 PM

Here's some news from Chesko, I think. Wow. http://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/33qcaj/the_experiment_has_failed_my_exit_from_the/.

Posted by: Acadian Apr 24 2015, 07:51 PM

Yes. . . kvright.gif Turning a hobby into profits tends to introduce enough headaches to kill any passion. That is why I would never consider writing for profit. I figure the problems Chesko discusses are simply the tip of the iceberg when it comes to brand new headaches for modders.

Posted by: haute ecole rider Apr 24 2015, 09:04 PM

I agree, Acadian, that I wouldn't write for profit, either.

That said, I will write what I love, and if I decide to self-publish on iBooks or Amazon or whatever (original fiction only, of course), then whatever cash that brings in will be appreciated as supplemental income.

Twenty years ago I never thought about publishing my writing. It wasn't because I didn't think my stuff would sell. It was because I didn't want to deal with agents, publishers, marketing, etc. just to see my books ripped of their covers and tossed in the Dumpsters behind the bookstores.

But with the e-book revolution, and the ability to do what I want when I want, well, that changes things. If I ever write something that I want to put out there, I will do so. So what if it doesn't make the top ten bestsellers. But if people pay for it to read it, then I'm fine. If they don't want to read it, I'm fine with that too. After all, this would never be my day job. I want to always write what I love.

Posted by: mALX Apr 24 2015, 09:06 PM

QUOTE(mirocu @ Apr 24 2015, 04:29 AM) *

This is why I never support Steam or anything like it; even if they don´t do anything to begin with, they can control the purchase you made, effectively turning your purchase into a rental which it really was to begin with anyway.


Eventually, if this gets a good foothold, they can criminalize the whole free modding community, forcing you to pay even for unofficial patches that are essential or other mods that helps with problems like the abomb. While some point and laugh and call it a conspiracy theory, I don´t laugh particularly loud. Step by step they take away what is rightfully ours and because they do it step by step, many don´t see the full picture before it´s too late.



You said it all right here. Steam hasn't started charging for their use either, but look down the road and you may see it on the horizon. They are cornering the gaming market; everyone who has paid for these games needs them to play the games they paid for now.

And from the looks of it, Bethesda is burrowing in with them and rolling over; so I'd say Valve Steam has lubricated them really well with Septims.


Posted by: SubRosa Apr 24 2015, 09:46 PM

QUOTE(Grits @ Apr 24 2015, 02:40 PM) *

Here's some news from Chesko, I think. Wow. http://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/33qcaj/the_experiment_has_failed_my_exit_from_the/.

That shows just the kind of acrimony and legal issues I expected.

Some of the comments below also highlight even another issue. With mods-for-pay, it means that making a super successful mod will not provide you with the cred to get hired by a gaming company like Valve or Bethesda. Because there is no reason for them to buy the cow when they can get the milk for free. They stand to get rich off of the work of regular people, all without doing the slightest thing themselves. These for-pay mods are basically content made by employees they do not have to pay.

This statement by Valve really made me say WTF?
QUOTE
[Valve] Officer Mar 25 @ 4:47pm
Usual caveat: I am not a lawyer, so this does not constitute legal advice. If you are unsure, you should contact a lawyer. That said, I spoke with our lawyer and having mod A depend on mod B is fine--it doesn't matter if mod A is for sale and mod B is free, or if mod A is free or mod B is for sale.

I am not a lawyer either, but it sounds like a surefire lawsuit to me! And really, it does not matter if you even stand a chance of winning a lawsuit when you bring one. If you are rich, you can use a frivolous suit to bleed someone who is not rich of money, and financially destroy them.


QUOTE(Acadian @ Apr 24 2015, 02:51 PM) *

Yes. . . kvright.gif Turning a hobby into profits tends to introduce enough headaches to kill any passion. That is why I would never consider writing for profit. I figure the problems Chesko discusses are simply the tip of the iceberg when it comes to brand new headaches for modders.

Absolutely. Adding money to any situation never improves it.

Posted by: Callidus Thorn Apr 24 2015, 10:01 PM

QUOTE(Grits @ Apr 24 2015, 07:40 PM) *

Here's some news from Chesko, I think. Wow. http://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/33qcaj/the_experiment_has_failed_my_exit_from_the/.


Looking at the quote of the subscriber agreement right near the top there, doesn't it sound like they could just cut modders out of the loop entirely? I mean, they seem to be able to do anything they want with it once it's up there, and there's nothing the modder can do about it then.

I mean, Valve's agreement says they own it. Bethesda ToS for the construction kit says they own it. What's the modder got?

Posted by: mALX Apr 24 2015, 11:57 PM

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Apr 24 2015, 09:40 AM) *

I first http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/news/12444/, and it still disturbs me. I think it is a very bad thing for the modding community, on many levels. Ultimately I see it curtailing mod use, and probably even game sales.

Still, on one hand I can understand the reasoning by people who would like some compensation for their modding efforts. I have literally spent thousands of hours working on mods for various games.

My answer is something that Chesko illuminated in his/her open letter that Grits linked to above. Chesko rightly says that they don't have an endless well of time to work on mods. Modding means taking time away from spending time with family and friends, from the day job, from improving the skills they need for their day job, etc... So to justify taking that time away from these other things, money is required. There it is, the pink elephant in the room: Greed. Well, that is not my bottom line. I did not spend those thousands of hours modding to get rich. I did it because I love it. The effort I put in, and what created, is its own reward, and I do not regret a single minute spent. Sometimes I even feel like sharing with others, and I will never demand or ask for money for my mods.

Note to self: never download anything by Chesko, and scan my mod order to delete anything of theirs I might have now. Done, I didn't have anything of theirs.


So Chesko admitted he has been a terrible husband and father because he was busy modding? He shorted his wife and kids of attention, and halfassed his career... just so he could make mods? And now he wants us to all pay his bills so he can keep doing this? Hmmm. I think I need to check my load order and see if I have any of his mods too, I see me pulling them.


Update: The three of his I had downloaded: Frostfall; Campfire; and Arissa the Wandering Rogue. Frostfall wasn't installed it is in the Recycle Bin already.


QUOTE(ghastley @ Apr 23 2015, 10:55 PM) *

As I already mentioned on the Mods thread at Bethsoft my other worry is that anything I produce will be copied and sold as someone else's work. It will be my responsibility to watch their site and complain if anyone does so. as they won't do anything on their own. Given their lack of reaction to complaints when it was free, and the fact that they'll lose money by taking my side ...


This. This is a big concern, because Steam has done absolutely nothing to protect the original authors when their mods were stolen and posted on Steam, in fact Steam authorized the thieves with administrative privileges to police their own mod pages. And that was when mods were free, and the thieves were only gaining kudos for coming up with great mods they had actually stolen.

Truthfully, there are several mods or modders I would gladly make a donation to or pay their Premium membership at Nexus for - but I won't pay for any mod that is behind a pay wall, because there is no doubt in my mind there is an equal or better one for free at Nexus.



Posted by: Acadian Apr 25 2015, 01:32 AM

Goodness! The BethSoft SkyMods forum is going through about one full thread (they lock at 200 posts there) each hour! No kidding. They're about ready to open thread #7 on the subject. Lots of upset people. ohmy.gif

Posted by: mALX Apr 25 2015, 01:56 AM

QUOTE(Grits @ Apr 24 2015, 02:40 PM) *

Here's some news from Chesko, I think. Wow. http://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/33qcaj/the_experiment_has_failed_my_exit_from_the/.



Yeah, if I'm not mistaken he put up a mod that used FNIS without the author's permission, and FNIS states emphatically that they won't allow the use of any of their assets for any mod sold for money.



Posted by: mALX Apr 25 2015, 02:36 AM



Okay, I read Chesko's last post. This guy kills me; really - making excuses for why he did what he did wrong, trying to blame it on everyone but himself, hmmm. laugh.gif

So if they are only getting 25% the modders will only turn out cheap crap? "Nothing like Falskar" (Which Alexander made for free, his love of the game and modding, and hopefully to get a job in the gaming industry - which he did get).

Alexander didn't hold back and slap crap together because he wasn't being paid for it, but obviously this Chenko considers how much you make to how much effort he is willing to put into his hobby - although he already told us he shunned his marriage/family/career to do it when he was doing it for free; lol.

So then he thought he was getting screwed for only getting 25% when he did all the work to make the mod? "Oh poor me, it's not fair, waaaaaah" rollinglaugh.gif

I guess he didn't think Bethesda deserved a bigger cut for making the game and CK for him to make the mod on? Or Steam giving him the site and ready customer base? Oooookaaaay !!! rollinglaugh.gif

This guy has a real inflated view of what his mods are worth, next we'll see him on Kickstarter, lol.

And obviously he didn't think FNIS deserved a cut either, because he tried to slip their work in there without notice, lol.


According to the posts below that, he has closed out all his accounts including his Twitter.




QUOTE(Acadian @ Apr 24 2015, 02:51 PM) *

Yes. . . kvright.gif Turning a hobby into profits tends to introduce enough headaches to kill any passion. That is why I would never consider writing for profit. I figure the problems Chesko discusses are simply the tip of the iceberg when it comes to brand new headaches for modders.



Chesko created his own problems from what he himself wrote.



Posted by: SubRosa Apr 25 2015, 02:53 AM

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/65062/ to the situation. I am downloading it now. For free...

Posted by: mALX Apr 25 2015, 03:10 AM

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Apr 24 2015, 09:53 PM) *

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/65062/ to the situation. I am downloading it now. For free...



BWAAHAA! Hell yeah, downloading and endorsing in 15 minutes!






** Also gave him Kudos!



Posted by: gpstr Apr 25 2015, 03:15 AM

I haven't read anything on this thread yet because I just want to air my own thoughts while they're still there. I'll maybe comment some more later, after I wind down a bit.

First, bluntly, simply - this whole thing fills me with the urge to vomit.

Nothing good ever comes from getting money-hungry corporate weasels involved in anything.

If this is successful (which is to say, profitable for Beth and Valve), then it's absolutely guaranteed that free, amateur modding will be driven underground at best.

Scenario:

Acme Company hosts "X" mod behind their paywall.

<FreeModSite>.com hosts "Y" free mod that does the same thing.

Acme Company WILL see every download of "Y" mod as lost revenue, and therefore WILL seek to eliminate "Y" mod by the most direct and effective way - by eliminating <FreeModSite>.com entirely.

Count on it. In fact, I'd go so far as to presume that Valve and Beth have already had their lawyers look into just that issue, because they know, just as I do, that if they're going to continue to profit from the mods that are offered, they're going to have to ensure that there is no free competition. If players can download "Y" mod for free, then they have no incentive to pay for "X" mod and they won't, and there's no way that the companies invested the necessary money to bring this about with that possibility looming over their heads. It's certain that they not only believe that they can shut down free modding, but that, if this is successful, they fully intend to and already know how they'll go about doing it. They would not have made this decision without that assurance.

Again, the whole thing just fills me with the urge to vomit.

Posted by: mALX Apr 25 2015, 03:50 AM

QUOTE(gpstr @ Apr 24 2015, 10:15 PM) *

I haven't read anything on this thread yet because I just want to air my own thoughts while they're still there. I'll maybe comment some more later, after I wind down a bit.

First, bluntly, simply - this whole thing fills me with the urge to vomit.

Nothing good ever comes from getting money-hungry corporate weasels involved in anything.

If this is successful (which is to say, profitable for Beth and Valve), then it's absolutely guaranteed that free, amateur modding will be driven underground at best.

Scenario:

Acme Company hosts "X" mod behind their paywall.

<FreeModSite>.com hosts "Y" free mod that does the same thing.

Acme Company WILL see every download of "Y" mod as lost revenue, and therefore WILL seek to eliminate "Y" mod by the most direct and effective way - by eliminating <FreeModSite>.com entirely.

Count on it. In fact, I'd go so far as to presume that Valve and Beth have already had their lawyers look into just that issue, because they know, just as I do, that if they're going to continue to profit from the mods that are offered, they're going to have to ensure that there is no free competition. If players can download "Y" mod for free, then they have no incentive to pay for "X" mod and they won't, and there's no way that the companies invested the necessary money to bring this about with that possibility looming over their heads. It's certain that they not only believe that they can shut down free modding, but that, if this is successful, they fully intend to and already know how they'll go about doing it. They would not have made this decision without that assurance.

Again, the whole thing just fills me with the urge to vomit.



Ditto.



Posted by: SubRosa Apr 25 2015, 05:11 AM

So far I have read a couple articles on http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2015/04/24/valves-paid-skyrim-mods-are-a-legal-ethical-and-creative-disaster/. The bottom line of their reporting is this:

QUOTE
The pros are technically “modders get paid, the game maker gets paid,” but past that, there are too many cons to count.

This will prove to be a disaster, and may damage the PC the modding community irreparably if the practice spreads.

Which I believe is spot on.

Posted by: mirocu Apr 25 2015, 07:38 AM

QUOTE(Acadian @ Apr 25 2015, 02:32 AM) *

Goodness! The BethSoft SkyMods forum is going through about one full thread (they lock at 200 posts there) each hour! No kidding. They're about ready to open thread #7 on the subject. Lots of upset people. ohmy.gif

I´ve been following it a bit and from what I can see it´s basically the same thing being repeated over and over. But I imagine of course that is because people are upset mellow.gif

Posted by: Grits Apr 25 2015, 01:29 PM

The tone is considerably calmer this morning, or at least it was when I looked in. Emma made a post that I’m glad I stumbled on before it got buried: http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1516850-discussion-for-workshop-paid-mods-thread-8/page-6.

In situations where none of the news is good I appreciate hearing from the mature, level-headed folks whose opinions I respect regardless of whether I agree with them. As ever I’m grateful for the great oak of Chorrol where folks can have a passionate discussion without lashing out like vindictive children.

Posted by: Acadian Apr 25 2015, 02:22 PM

Grits, thanks for linking to Emma's post else I'd have missed it for sure given the speed of comments over there. She makes excellent points and she's right that if she charged what Vilja was worth, the price would be more than a new gaming PC! tongue.gif

Although Vilja is too. . . overpowering for Buffy and would relegate my nurturing elf to a 'sidekick' status, there is no doubt it is an incredible mod and sets the gold standard for followers. I'm confident that without Vilja, the Dawnguard's Serana would have been just another vanilla follower instead of taking the giant leaps in interactivity that she did. And as Emma alludes, the recipe was passion, love of modding and cooperation with other modders - not cash or competition.

You nailed the reason I started this thread here. Chorrol is a supportive and mature place to discuss things. When passions run high - as they do in this case - we can count on reasoned, supportive and mutually respectful discussions. Not to mention at a pace that is a bit easier to follow! wink.gif

Posted by: SubRosa Apr 25 2015, 04:09 PM

What Emma says about sharing brings me back to my first days of modding. Back then I was playing Rome Total War, and I wanted to make a few minor changes to the abilities of units in the game. There was already a well established modding community by that time, but it was fragmented across several forums. There were how-to guides, but many things were still not spelled out in specifics. I was still very grateful for what I could find as it got me started, and made me realize that this was not so difficult after all. It was just time-consuming, and a person only needed the willingness to invest their time in order to change the game in extraordinary ways.

Soon I moved beyond the little onsey twosey mods, and began a huge conversion project for the game - Amazon Total War. As the name implies, it brought more female units into the game. I had no idea how to do most the things I would need to in order to make it work. I had to learn it all as I went. Thankfully there were plenty of people out there willing to help explain things when I could not figure them out myself.

It was a long, slow process, but ATW became a reality. I didn't stop there, but kept working on the mod, expanding it, improving the graphics, meshes, adding more factions, and so on. This literally took years of hard work. By my third major version of the mod I heard people saying "I would pay for this". Also at that time I began to import a great deal of material from other mods into my own. Things like new ship meshes and textures. New landscape graphics. New skins for things like shields and armor. New animations, etc... Everyone I asked for contributions gave me their blessing to use their work, and naturally I credited them all. That final, most polished version of ATW could never have existed without the help of those people, like Halie Satanus, Riczu, Pinarius, SrJamesTyrrel, Mark Centurion, GreenViggen, Palantir/Dol Gulder/Master of None, Andalus, and many, many more. It was my mod, I did all the work on it, but without the free and helpful support of these people it never would have been what it was.

As Emma says, the spirit of modding is sharing. If the RTW modding community had been a for-pay environment, none of that would have ever happened. These people would not have shared, and I would have never even asked for their material in the first place. They would have been my business competitors, not my friends. They would have wanted to see me fail, because that would leave a larger market share for them. That is just the reality of finance.

Posted by: mALX Apr 25 2015, 06:00 PM

*

One thing no one has mentioned on any of these discussions: Where this is headed.

We know that Bethesda is saving money by distributing their games through Valve-Steam; there is no doubt about that. Steam is having to pay the bandwidth for all these mods they are hosting.

For decades Bethesda has stood firm about no money compensation for mods, now suddenly they are buckling that firm stand FOR STEAM users only. That should tell you something about the driving force behind this change.

Something Chesko said in his wimpy excuse for his actions struck me - he said he was asked how many would pay for accessing Steam to access these mods.

In other words, either the mods sell and pay back Steam for some of this bandwidth; or they start charging members to access their own games that they already paid for.

Now Bethesda has saved a ton of money and wants to keep saving that money in their upcoming games - may even have a contract with Steam already in effect for that.

Steam has them by the balls now. They own more of their rights than Bethesda does. They are calling the shots now, as far as I can see. So all this tight 100 mb hold Steam had on their bandwidth is suddenly miraculously opened up so they can handle huge mods - why, because the bandwidth is about to be paid for by the sale of all those mods using it. One way or another.

I am pretty sure that Steam will start charging users for using their site for uploading mods or charge users for getting any mods from them or both. And they are not going to like Nexus offering mods for free; because who will deal with Steam if they can get it for free elsewhere?

So then they will charge membership fees to access the games you have already bought. I can about guarantee this is where it is headed. They cornered the gaming market, and Bethesda stupidly fed right into their hands trying to save a buck on security and distribution.

Better be looking for that membership fee at Steam, because they want their bandwidth paid for and won't stop till it is, imho.

Instead of concentrating on the wheels as they turn, might really want to take a look at where they are heading.

*

Posted by: SubRosa Apr 25 2015, 06:14 PM

In the past Bethesda refused mods to be sold because they had no way of controlling the money themselves. All the money would have gone to the modder, and none of it to them. But after moving their sole distribution to Steam (even if you bought a physical disc in a store, you still have to use Steam to install and play the game), they finally realized that they have a means of controlling sales, so they make the money, rather than the modder. So of course now they are tapping the previously untouched revenue stream of mods.

Skyrim is not the first game to have mods for pay. Valve started it with their own in-house created games like Team Fortress. The fact that they made a lot of money from it is what made Bethesda take notice, and I am sure a lot other game companies. Even though it is far from a new game anymore, Skyrim still has a huge number of players and a gigantic mod library. So it was an obvious choice for the first non-Valve game to go the paid-mod route. It is a win for Valve, and a win for Bethesda. Only the modders and players lose.

It is also worth noting that Bethesda does not call all of its own shots. Just like Bioware does not. They are just a subsidiary of a much larger investment corporation. That corporation has lost a lot of money lately. So they want to make it back any way possible, and selling mods is just one way the mega-corporation can do that.

And yes, Valve opening up the bandwidth for Skyrim mods a little while ago was definitely laying the groundwork for the paid modding. It was a necessary first step for the business. What I can see as a next step is to make Fallout 4's Geck (that is what they call the Fallout creation kit), to be more integrated with Steam, so that you cannot save your mods locally. Instead they will probably only allow saving to Steam's servers. That way Valve and Bethesda will have complete control of the mods, and cut out sites like the Nexus. They will claim it is a good thing, because online storage will protect your mod from being lost due to things like hard drive failures.

Will Valve start charging a monthly fee for Steam use? That I kind of doubt, since even single mmo games with monthly subscriptions usually fail. Very few people are willing to pay $20 a month just to play a game. So I don't believe people would pay Steam a monthly subscription. Instead they would just pirate all their games and cut Steam completely out of the picture. People who do not want to deal with Steam now - when it is free (albeit the internet connection is not) - have been playing pirated copies of Skyrim since the first day it came out.

Of course whether Valve is smart enough to understand that is another matter entirely though. Companies are remarkably stupid when it comes to DRM schemes and piracy. They never seem to realize that DRM does absolutely nothing to deter piracy. Instead it costs them more money to buy the DRM scheme in the first place, makes their game more unstable and sometimes unplayable, and insults paying customers by treating them like criminals. In the end DRM schemes promote piracy, because for many people it is literally the only way they can play the game because the DRM prevents them from doing it legally. Even the remarkable success of DRM-free distributors like Gog.com and donation sites like Kickstarter have not clued most of the gaming industry into the fact that you do not need such absolute control to make money. People will still buy games even when they could pirate them. Simply because we are honest, and want to reward the developer, and insure they continue to make good games.

Posted by: Acadian Apr 25 2015, 06:42 PM

I'm scratching my head here still at the lack of sense. It is clear that the modding community overall is not behind pay for mods. BethSoft has provided their CS/CK free and, in return, has sold more games because of modding and not had to repair tons of tiny bugs that the modders do. The situation has been, in my mind, symbiotic with mod makers, players and BethSoft all benefiting. If it ain't broke. . . .

If there is a case for paying some modders, it seems that BethSoft should look at paying the wonderful 'unofficial patch' teams for doing a notable chunk of their patching work for them. laugh.gif

But decisions like this don't always make sense. Even big company's sometimes only learn by screwing up and getting bitten (ESO, I'm looking at you and the embarrassing reception to your pay to play MMO).

Posted by: mALX Apr 25 2015, 07:30 PM

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Apr 25 2015, 01:14 PM) *

In the past Bethesda refused mods to be sold because they had no way of controlling the money themselves. All the money would have gone to the modder, and none of it to them. But after moving their sole distribution to Steam (even if you bought a physical disc in a store, you still have to use Steam to install and play the game), they finally realized that they have a means of controlling sales, so they make the money, rather than the modder. So of course now they are tapping the previously untouched revenue stream of mods.

Skyrim is not the first game to have mods for pay. Valve started it with their own in-house created games like Team Fortress. The fact that they made a lot of money from it is what made Bethesda take notice, and I am sure a lot other game companies. Even though it is far from a new game anymore, Skyrim still has a huge number of players and a gigantic mod library. So it was an obvious choice for the first non-Valve game to go the paid-mod route. It is a win for Valve, and a win for Bethesda. Only the modders and players lose.

It is also worth noting that Bethesda does not call all of its own shots. Just like Bioware does not. They are just a subsidiary of a much larger investment corporation. That corporation has lost a lot of money lately. So they want to make it back any way possible, and selling mods is just one way the mega-corporation can do that.

And yes, Valve opening up the bandwidth for Skyrim mods a little while ago was definitely laying the groundwork for the paid modding. It was a necessary first step for the business. What I can see as a next step is to make Fallout 4's Geck (that is what they call the Fallout creation kit), to be more integrated with Steam, so that you cannot save your mods locally. Instead they will probably only allow saving to Steam's servers. That way Valve and Bethesda will have complete control of the mods, and cut out sites like the Nexus. They will claim it is a good thing, because online storage will protect your mod from being lost due to things like hard drive failures.

Will Valve start charging a monthly fee for Steam use? That I kind of doubt, since even single mmo games with monthly subscriptions usually fail. Very few people are willing to pay $20 a month just to play a game. So I don't believe people would pay Steam a monthly subscription. Instead they would just pirate all their games and cut Steam completely out of the picture. People who do not want to deal with Steam now - when it is free (albeit the internet connection is not) - have been playing pirated copies of Skyrim since the first day it came out.

Of course whether Valve is smart enough to understand that is another matter entirely though. Companies are remarkably stupid when it comes to DRM schemes and piracy. They never seem to realize that DRM does absolutely nothing to deter piracy. Instead it costs them more money to buy the DRM scheme in the first place, makes their game more unstable and sometimes unplayable, and insults paying customers by treating them like criminals. In the end DRM schemes promote piracy, because for many people it is literally the only way they can play the game because the DRM prevents them from doing it legally. Even the remarkable success of DRM-free distributors like Gog.com and donation sites like Kickstarter have not clued most of the gaming industry into the fact that you do not need such absolute control to make money. People will still buy games even when they could pirate them. Simply because we are honest, and want to reward the developer, and insure they continue to make good games.



This is the most informative fact filled post I've read yet on this whole situation; and the thought of them controlling the Geck right from the start - I never would have thought of that, but now that you've said it - oh yeah, I do see that happening. And I've been afraid all along that Nexus is about to crash and burn because Valve-Steam will sweep it out of the way.

Hugely important post you made here, SubRosa. Huge.



Posted by: gpstr Apr 25 2015, 09:13 PM

I closely watched, and commented on, Skyrim's development from the time it was announced up until a few months before release. At that point, I made the decision that I was simply not going to give Beth any of my money for that game, period. I no longer had any interest in what they were going to do with it because I was not going to buy it.

And what was the thing that put me over the edge? What was the thing that made me decide that, even after I'd seen and commented on the elimination of attributes and the elimination of spellmaking, among many other bad decisions?

The Steam requirement. THAT was the straw that broke my back.

This is a fine example of why.

@mALX - Nexus isn't going to crash and burn. Nexus is going to join ranks with Steam and Beth, at least as a licensed provider if not as a wholly owned subsidiary. Count on it. In fact, I'm willing to bet that that deal is already being worked out.

However, any other sites that try to offer free mods WILL BE shut down. That's guaranteed. As I noted in my last post, every download of "Y" free mod is going to be seen by Beth and Steam as lost revenue, and they're going to react accordingly.

And @SubRosa - I hadn't thought about it, but I'd about guarantee that you're right about the next Geck not being able to save locally. Just like the games, it'll require Steam's malware running in the background, and Steam's malware will make it so that it will only save to Steam's servers. That's the surest way for them to retain control of the mods, and they're not going to miss an opportunity like that.

And broadly - I remember when I refused to use RealPlayer because they required the installation of a bunch of entirely unnecessary bloatware. Then I was in the majority. Now I refuse to use Steam for the same reason, but now I'm in the minority. I just find that sort of weird, and sort of sad.

Posted by: mirocu Apr 25 2015, 09:43 PM

QUOTE(gpstr @ Apr 25 2015, 10:13 PM) *

I closely watched, and commented on, Skyrim's development from the time it was announced up until a few months before release. At that point, I made the decision that I was simply not going to give Beth any of my money for that game, period. I no longer had any interest in what they were going to do with it because I was not going to buy it.

And what was the thing that put me over the edge? What was the thing that made me decide that, even after I'd seen and commented on the elimination of attributes and the elimination of spellmaking, among many other bad decisions?

The Steam requirement. THAT was the straw that broke my back.

You spoke for me too, gpstr.

I am still busy enough with Oblivion and Fallout 3 so my gaming time is limited enough as it is, but seeing that requirement broke the whole deal for me too. I don´t want to give away the control of my games.

But I´m doing a Renee here, sorry.. embarrased.gif


I do hope the modding community as we know it survives. Not everything needs to be monetized and sharing is a wonderful thing if done right. I don´t mod myself but if I did I would upload them and just be happy if others wanted to use them smile.gif

Posted by: Callidus Thorn Apr 25 2015, 10:32 PM

QUOTE(Acadian @ Apr 25 2015, 06:42 PM) *

I'm scratching my head here still at the lack of sense. It is clear that the modding community overall is not behind pay for mods. BethSoft has provided their CS/CK free and, in return, has sold more games because of modding and not had to repair tons of tiny bugs that the modders do. The situation has been, in my mind, symbiotic with mod makers, players and BethSoft all benefiting. If it ain't broke. . . .


It makes perfect sense. Modding only benefits Bethesda up to a point. It keeps people playing the games, keeps the games at the forefront of the players gaming library until the next game is released. Then it becomes a hindrance. How many people stuck to playing modded Morrowind rather than buy Oblivion? How many stuck to modded Morrowind or Oblivion instead of buying Skyrim? Once that happens, that free program that lets players extend the games lifespan gets in the way, and starts costing them sales. The fact that Morrowind still has an active section on the Bethesda forums shows how many people are still playing the game, and no doubt the high ups at Bethesda consider that lost revenue.

And on top of that, there's DLC. Players already have the choice of buying the DLC as it comes or waiting for the ultimate edition/GoTY edition and maybe getting them cheaper, but mods present another option: content that can be at a higher level than Bethesda can provide, but which doesn't come at a cost. So modding's potentially costing them money there as well.

And finally, there is a penalty to having people playing a TES game right up until the release of the next game; people immediately compare everything they find out about the new game to the old one, which is still fresh in their minds because they're still playing it. So of course people look negatively on the new game, particularly considering the direction Bethesda has been moving in with Oblivion and (more noticeably imo) Skyrim.

Killing off modding can benefit them, and doing it this way means they can sit back and make money while the modding community destroys itself. Sure, it might cost them sales, but the ones they'll lose, the long term modders aren't in their target demographic anymore.

Maybe making a mountain out of a molehill, but I can see how this can ultimately benefit Valve and Bethesda. Bethesda's gotten away with making questionable moves in the past, and Valve continues with its horrendous consumer practices, so I doubt they're particularly worried about this backlash.

Posted by: SubRosa Apr 25 2015, 10:41 PM

My only real beef against Steam is the DRM they force upon all of their users. As an online storefront, I have no problem with them. While I lament the good old days of buying a disc in a store, the reality is those days are over. Online distribution is simply the way of gaming now, and always will be. Which is not really a bad thing. I saves the distributor money since they do not have to own a factory to produce dvds, or chop down a thousand trees to make boxes to put them in, and so on. But the DRM - requiring you to start the Steam Client every time you play the game to validate that you own a legal copy of the game - is totally unnecessary.

I have been thinking about what I said about future Geck/Creation Kits forcing you to save your mods onto a Valve or Bethesda server, and I am changing my mind. The reason is simply bandwidth and storage space. It would cost the companies a lot of money.

Instead what they might do is first outlaw all third party mod-organizer programs like OBMM or Wyre Bash. Bethesda loves to brings lawsuits against other companies. They are in court more often than most District Attorneys. It would not matter if they won or lost either. They have the money to simply bankrupt any mod maker in court. But they would win, as it is their game, and their modding software.

So then the only way to activate a mod would be through the game itself. Or more likely, through a Game Setup page on Steam, where you store all of your game settings and your mod load order. Mods uploaded to the Steam Workshop would be given a digital watermark. Then after you buy a mod and download it, when you go to the Game Setup page to put it in your load order, the server would check for that watermark, and refuse to activate it unless it is there. That way people could make all the mods they wanted. But they could only use the ones that came from the Steam Workshop. Including the ones you made yourself. That would give Bethesda and Valve absolute control over every mod, and they would be able to profit from every single instance of a person using them.

Posted by: Renee Apr 26 2015, 01:17 AM

Renee: *munches popcorn*


Posted by: gpstr Apr 26 2015, 02:03 AM

QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Apr 25 2015, 03:32 PM) *

QUOTE(Acadian @ Apr 25 2015, 06:42 PM) *

I'm scratching my head here still at the lack of sense. It is clear that the modding community overall is not behind pay for mods. BethSoft has provided their CS/CK free and, in return, has sold more games because of modding and not had to repair tons of tiny bugs that the modders do. The situation has been, in my mind, symbiotic with mod makers, players and BethSoft all benefiting. If it ain't broke. . . .


It makes perfect sense. Modding only benefits Bethesda up to a point. It keeps people playing the games, keeps the games at the forefront of the players gaming library until the next game is released. Then it becomes a hindrance. How many people stuck to playing modded Morrowind rather than buy Oblivion? How many stuck to modded Morrowind or Oblivion instead of buying Skyrim? Once that happens, that free program that lets players extend the games lifespan gets in the way, and starts costing them sales. The fact that Morrowind still has an active section on the Bethesda forums shows how many people are still playing the game, and no doubt the high ups at Bethesda consider that lost revenue.

And on top of that, there's DLC. Players already have the choice of buying the DLC as it comes or waiting for the ultimate edition/GoTY edition and maybe getting them cheaper, but mods present another option: content that can be at a higher level than Bethesda can provide, but which doesn't come at a cost. So modding's potentially costing them money there as well.

And finally, there is a penalty to having people playing a TES game right up until the release of the next game; people immediately compare everything they find out about the new game to the old one, which is still fresh in their minds because they're still playing it. So of course people look negatively on the new game, particularly considering the direction Bethesda has been moving in with Oblivion and (more noticeably imo) Skyrim.

Killing off modding can benefit them, and doing it this way means they can sit back and make money while the modding community destroys itself. Sure, it might cost them sales, but the ones they'll lose, the long term modders aren't in their target demographic anymore.

Maybe making a mountain out of a molehill, but I can see how this can ultimately benefit Valve and Bethesda. Bethesda's gotten away with making questionable moves in the past, and Valve continues with its horrendous consumer practices, so I doubt they're particularly worried about this backlash.
This is a well reasoned post, and probably about dead on.

It's akin to a thing I often tell people about politics, when they start going on about whatever seemingly stupid decision some government has made. These people are highly paid professionals. They're not stupid. If their decisions seem inexplicable, it's only because we're not reasoning through things like they are.

And more often than not, it's because we're decent, honorable people who would never think to do whatever manipulative, shady, self-serving thing they've decided to do - it doesn't make sense to us because our minds don't work that way.

And no - they're not worried about the backlash. Valve is guaranteed market share just because of their DRM deals and they don't have to, and don't, care. And Beth - this is a company that has a recurring character in the games whose only purpose at this point is to communicate just how much the devs hate the fans. Of course they aren't afraid of the backlash.

I can see it now: "Some people think that they should be able to use M'aiq's things whenever and however they want. M'aiq thinks they're assholes."


QUOTE(SubRosa @ Apr 25 2015, 03:41 PM) *

My only real beef against Steam is the DRM they force upon all of their users. As an online storefront, I have no problem with them.
The two are inseparable, and since it appears that humanity has lost the will to refuse to install malware, will remain inseparable.

If it wasn't for the DRM deals, Steam would be just another online storefront, and would have to compete on a level playing field with everyone else. They're not willing to do that and they're not going to do that unless customers demand it, and customers aren't demanding it.

Sorry, but every single person who continues to do business with Steam is part of the problem. I hate saying that to someone I like and respect, but it's true. As long as people continue to bend over and take it, Steam will continue to do it, and it really doesn't matter how much the customers might complain along the way. The only thing that stands the slightest chance of making them stop is if enough potential customers refuse to bend over for them at all. Unless and until that happens, nothing is going to change.

QUOTE
But the DRM - requiring you to start the Steam Client every time you play the game to validate that you own a legal copy of the game - is totally unnecessary.
Of course it's unnecessary. It's not there because it's necessary or even purportedly so - it's there because it's profitable, and because there aren't enough people who are willing to say, "Screw that. I refuse to install your malware."

QUOTE
I have been thinking about what I said about future Geck/Creation Kits forcing you to save your mods onto a Valve or Bethesda server, and I am changing my mind. The reason is simply bandwidth and storage space. It would cost the companies a lot of money.
Mmm... yeah. But still - it's an elegant and certainly effective solution to a "problem" (the "problem" of lost revenue from mods that don't go through Steam's online storefront).

QUOTE
Instead what they might do is first outlaw all third party mod-organizer programs like OBMM or Wyre Bash. Bethesda loves to brings lawsuits against other companies. They are in court more often than most District Attorneys. It would not matter if they won or lost either. They have the money to simply bankrupt any mod maker in court. But they would win, as it is their game, and their modding software.

So then the only way to activate a mod would be through the game itself. Or more likely, through a Game Setup page on Steam, where you store all of your game settings and your mod load order. Mods uploaded to the Steam Workshop would be given a digital watermark. Then after you buy a mod and download it, when you go to the Game Setup page to put it in your load order, the server would check for that watermark, and refuse to activate it unless it is there. That way people could make all the mods they wanted. But they could only use the ones that came from the Steam Workshop. Including the ones you made yourself. That would give Bethesda and Valve absolute control over every mod, and they would be able to profit from every single instance of a person using them.
Mmm... yeah. That's possible too.

Suffice to say, Steam and Beth will work out some way to ensure that their for profit modding "service" doesn't face any competition from free mods. That much, at least, is absolutely guaranteed.

And as Callidus points out, even if that destroys modding for these games entirely, that's fine. Beth's target market is young people with disposable income who'll shell out the money for a game that'll give them 20 or so hours of "open world" gaming with lots of visual goodies. I'm certain they care just as little about modders, in the end, as they care about roleplayers.

Posted by: mirocu Apr 26 2015, 07:28 AM

QUOTE(gpstr @ Apr 26 2015, 03:03 AM) *

Sorry, but every single person who continues to do business with Steam is part of the problem. I hate saying that to someone I like and respect, but it's true. As long as people continue to bend over and take it, Steam will continue to do it, and it really doesn't matter how much the customers might complain along the way. The only thing that stands the slightest chance of making them stop is if enough potential customers refuse to bend over for them at all. Unless and until that happens, nothing is going to change.

This is exactly what can be said about politics; as long as people don´t actually stand up and say enough is enough, they can complain all they want. The agenda is still ongoing.


Posted by: Acadian Apr 26 2015, 04:03 PM

Well, I downloaded a handful of Nexus mods on my 'watch' list and put them in a 'Just in case they disappear from Nexus' folder.

My understanding is that the SKSE mod team was asked and declined the offer to pair into this $cheme. So that's good news. Hopefully the SkyUI and USKP teams continue to avoid the $team thing as well.

Posted by: Grits Apr 26 2015, 05:28 PM

That’s a good idea.

Since I had already removed some mods on the authors’ advice not knowing that their updates would be for pay, I’ve found that my game runs better than ever. laugh.gif Still wondering what to do about Shezrie’s Old Hroldan, since the whole page disappeared from the Nexus and the finished version is for sale under a different name. Removing it leaves a bunch of junk scripts in the saves, but keeping it unsupported seems risky. I guess I could remove it and gamble with the save cleaner like I’ve done with the others.

Arthmoor’s reply when asked on the USKP Nexus page how much future versions were going to cost: “$0.00 USD.” Glad to hear that.

Posted by: SubRosa Apr 26 2015, 05:52 PM

I have been doing the opposite. I am deleting mods I currently have whose authors have decided that money means more to them than the modding community. I saw Arthmoor has a for pay mod, so I deleted the Unofficial Dawnguard Patch. That was the only thing of his I had. Since his Unofficial Patch for the main game only caused bugs for me, rather than fixed them. I will just deal with whatever Dawnguard bugs I meet myself.

Shezrie has sold her soul for cash too, so out went the Hearthfire Kitchen mods she made which I was using. How that will affect my games where those were already built, I don't know. Worse comes to worse I will just not use those houses in those games and mod my own. It would not be the first time for that.

And the maker of Pure Waters is up there too, so I deleted that. I will just have to find another mod that makes water semi-transparent. Or do it myself. Whenever I get back to playing Skyrim. If I ever do that is.

This is not as easy to do as I thought, as http://i.imgur.com/XCL5SHn.jpg. And this is after I manually set the language to English...

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=431467621. I wonder how much it costs? I cannot tell, since my Finnish is not so good...

https://www.change.org/p/valve-remove-the-paid-content-of-the-steam-workshop also has a petition you can sign if you are against this. Not that believe it will make the slightest difference in Bethesda's business plans. But it is one way to voice your opinion.

Posted by: Acadian Apr 26 2015, 06:31 PM

Heh, I've never navigated beyond the one Steam screen I needed to install Skyrim + DLC + CK so I have never seen this 'Steam Workshop' - and don't expect I ever will. So I don't know which modders are doing what. I just have a few mods I've been watching that I'd like to have available on Nexus like the one that makes folks run inside when dragons attack - in case I ever go beyond 'Dragons Lite' in my game.

Posted by: Grits Apr 26 2015, 08:06 PM

I saw a comment from Mardoxx and thought it was a joke, but apparently he was serious. Seems that new versions of SkyUI will be for-pay only, which of course is a pretty big deal for a lot of modders and mod users. From what I’ve read the SKSE folks do not support paid mods. Should be interesting to watch what happens next.

Posted by: SubRosa Apr 26 2015, 08:45 PM

That is disappointing. It looks like I will be deleting that too then. Maybe I will just stop playing Skyrim.

Posted by: mALX Apr 26 2015, 09:09 PM

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Apr 26 2015, 12:52 PM) *

I have been doing the opposite. I am deleting mods I currently have whose authors have decided that money means more to them than the modding community. I saw Arthmoor has a for pay mod, so I deleted the Unofficial Dawnguard Patch. That was the only thing of his I had. Since his Unofficial Patch for the main game only caused bugs for me, rather than fixed them. I will just deal with whatever Dawnguard bugs I meet myself.

Shezrie has sold her soul for cash too, so out went the Hearthfire Kitchen mods she made which I was using. How that will affect my games where those were already built, I don't know. Worse comes to worse I will just not use those houses in those games and mod my own. It would not be the first time for that.

And the maker of Pure Waters is up there too, so I deleted that. I will just have to find another mod that makes water semi-transparent. Or do it myself. Whenever I get back to playing Skyrim. If I ever do that is.

This is not as easy to do as I thought, as http://i.imgur.com/XCL5SHn.jpg. And this is after I manually set the language to English...

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=431467621. I wonder how much it costs? I cannot tell, since my Finnish is not so good...

https://www.change.org/p/valve-remove-the-paid-content-of-the-steam-workshop also has a petition you can sign if you are against this. Not that believe it will make the slightest difference in Bethesda's business plans. But it is one way to voice your opinion.


I had Steam do that to me too, it took me a whole lot of jumbling around and finally restarting my PC and re-signing in with them/verifying something - it finally went back to English.

I agree with you in this: nothing we do will make any difference at all in the long run. Bethesda had these plans a long time before they pulled this, knew there would be an outcry, that is why they are totally ignoring the threads and letting everyone spew.

When we are all tired from hashing and reacting, it will all still be there. The only way to stop it would be a united boycotting of Valve/Steam/Bethesda; and that will NEVER happen. We are gamers, our games are on Steam, and Fallout 4 is about to be announced and revealed at E3.

So we may as well face it that no matter what we say it won't change anything. We all need to start proactively planning how we need to protect ourselves for the future and what we are going to do in the long run.



Posted by: mirocu Apr 26 2015, 09:11 PM

But is there really a reason to remove mods you already downloaded? Surely you can´t be forced to pay considering they were completely free when you got them?

Posted by: SubRosa Apr 26 2015, 09:13 PM

The utter contempt I feel for these people precludes me from taking any enjoyment from a game with their work in it.

Usually I can remove my personal feelings for a musician or actor or other artist/creator from their actual work. That is why I can still enjoy listening to Guns N Roses in spite of what I feel for the members of the band intself (yes, I am looking at the singer in particular). But there comes a point where I just cannot do it, and with those people all I can do is simply boycott their material. That saves me the heartburn of stewing about how much I loath them while I am trying to watch their movie/listen to the song/etc...

Posted by: mALX Apr 26 2015, 11:01 PM

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Apr 26 2015, 04:13 PM) *

The utter contempt I feel for these people precludes me from taking any enjoyment from a game with their work in it.

Usually I can remove my personal feelings for a musician or actor or other artist/creator from their actual work. That is why I can still enjoy listening to Guns N Roses in spite of what I feel for the members of the band intself (yes, I am looking at the singer in particular). But there comes a point where I just cannot do it, and with those people all I can do is simply boycott their material. That saves me the heartburn of stewing about how much I loath them while I am trying to watch their movie/listen to the song/etc...



I'm checking to see if I gave kudos or endorsements to any of them - removing those; figure these people didn't consider that a good enough compensation.



Posted by: mALX Apr 27 2015, 12:08 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-U1HZrV_ZI&feature=youtu.be


Read the subtitles - (Bethesda/Valve meeting caught on camera)




Posted by: Acadian Apr 27 2015, 12:19 AM

I'm more upset with Steam than anyone else. Slightly less so with Bethesda since they are, to some extent, reaping the unhappy consequences of selling part of their soul to Steam with their decision to hand over control of Skyrim to Steam back in 2011 - I have to believe they are feeling some buyers remorse about their relationship with that 800 pound gorilla at this point. I'm a bit less upset with modders that are dabbling in the dark side. Perhaps they have been lured by dreams of a career in game development. I expect those with integrity and half a brain who have done so will soon realize what a bad arrangement all around that it is. I would not be surprised to see many of them going from lured by Steam to burned by Steam to pulling their work from Steam. I can hope that is the case anyway. From what little I know of it, such appears to perhaps be the case with this Chesko modder. I hope that someone talented enough to make SkyUI will, after being 'Steamed', see the light and return to the free fold.

My dream would be that no modder of conscience or talent would go near Steam's paymod ploy and the scheme will collapse. Someone badly misjudged what the TES community wanted with pay-to-play ESO and we see how that fell apart. So maybe there's hope.




Posted by: mALX Apr 27 2015, 01:08 AM



Here is the list of mods behind the paywall:


http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/browse/?appid=72850&searchtext=&childpublishedfileid=0&browsesort=forsale_pendingapproval&section=readytouseitems&requiredflags%5B0%5D=paiditems&browsefilter=forsale_pendingapproval&p=1



And here is a list of the Service Providers who a person can opt to give 5% of Valve's cut of the take:

Blender
MCM
Nexus
AFK-Mods
Polycount (who?).



Posted by: gpstr Apr 27 2015, 01:09 AM

QUOTE(mALX @ Apr 26 2015, 02:09 PM) *

When we are all tired from hashing and reacting, it will all still be there. The only way to stop it would be a united boycotting of Valve/Steam/Bethesda; and that will NEVER happen. We are gamers, our games are on Steam, and Fallout 4 is about to be announced and revealed at E3.

So we may as well face it that no matter what we say it won't change anything.


I have not bought and thus have not played Skyrim. I will not buy and thus will not play Fallout 4 or TES VI.

The ONLY thing that counts for anything between you and Beth is whether or not they get your money for their games. If they get your money for their games, then they've succeeded - you have chosen to reward them for making that product. Your opinion of the product or of Beth counts for absolutely nothing (hasn't M'aiq told you that enough times already?). Their only goal is to get your money from you, so if you give them your money, you've done the only thing they need you to do.

Giving them your money then complaining about them on a forum is the equivalent of giving a mugger your wallet then flipping him off as he walks away. I guess it might feel somewhat gratifying, but it counts for nothing - they still have your money and don't have to, and don't, care what you think about it.

Now - I don't believe that my refusal to give Beth any of my money is going to have any real impact on them. But, first and foremost, it satisfies my sense of integrity. I know that I am doing my part as a consumer - doing the ONLY meaningful thing that a consumer in a free market can do - by refusing to give a company my money in exchange for a product that I don't find satisfactory. And, more to the point, I know that if more people thought the way I do and approached it the way I do, it actually would make a difference, and FAR more difference than any number of posts on any number of forums could ever make. All it would take is for other individuals to make the same decision. And they, like me, have to make that decision on their own, one at a time.

/sermon winkgrin.gif

Posted by: SubRosa Apr 27 2015, 01:11 AM

QUOTE(mALX @ Apr 26 2015, 07:08 PM) *

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-U1HZrV_ZI&feature=youtu.be


Read the subtitles - (Bethesda/Valve meeting caught on camera)

Oh my goodness, that guy's laugh! It sounds like his heart is going to seize up like engine of an old chevy! laugh.gif

I am kind of surprised that Hitler has not popped up to say anything about this. Given his previous https://youtu.be/T0PwqvwyG54, or https://youtu.be/WHkxp4cxRjU, not to mention https://youtu.be/A0h3Y4QFAAE biggrin.gif

Posted by: mALX Apr 27 2015, 02:30 AM

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Apr 26 2015, 08:11 PM) *

QUOTE(mALX @ Apr 26 2015, 07:08 PM) *

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-U1HZrV_ZI&feature=youtu.be


Read the subtitles - (Bethesda/Valve meeting caught on camera)

Oh my goodness, that guy's laugh! It sounds like his heart is going to seize up like engine of an old chevy! laugh.gif

I am kind of surprised that Hitler has not popped up to say anything about this. Given his previous https://youtu.be/T0PwqvwyG54, or https://youtu.be/WHkxp4cxRjU, not to mention https://youtu.be/A0h3Y4QFAAE biggrin.gif



rollinglaugh.gif Oh, Mirocu would love the Taylor Swift one, lol.

Oh, on his laugh - YES! I actually knew an old lady that laughed like that, and just hearing her laugh used to make me fall into hysterics laughing. I would walk into the office and look at her, she would pull the ever-present cigarette from her mouth and make a "PAaaaaaa" sound, and that would set me off laughing. Then when I was wiping my tears from laughing so hard I'd hear "Huiuuiuuiuuiah huiaiuih" and go off again. Our boss had to separate us to get any work done. Peggy.

Her face was brown and her mouth all wrinkled from smoking all the time; her ash tray was a tire hub and was full constantly; and you never saw her without that cigarette. She would even talk with it in her mouth, her thin lips gripping it as she talked around it and it flipped all over without ever once dropping a long line of ashes - OMG, she was so funny. I LOVED her!

I could have developed lung cancer just working in the office with her though, lol.







Posted by: Acadian Apr 27 2015, 03:23 AM

MALX, thanks for posting that list of paymods. Pretty much what I'd expect - mostly junk.

Posted by: mALX Apr 27 2015, 04:24 AM

QUOTE(Acadian @ Apr 26 2015, 10:23 PM) *

MALX, thanks for posting that list of paymods. Pretty much what I'd expect - mostly junk.



Yeah, I was shocked to see that Redguard house just dumped down in the middle of the road - meaning NPC's traveling through there will have issues - no landscaping; and one of the windows looked like it was below the dirt! Really crappy work.

I got a kick out of a few of them "Nothing" - an empty ESP because I just want your money; etc.



Posted by: Acadian Apr 28 2015, 12:57 AM

I believe this is good news indeed:

http://steamcommunity.com/games/SteamWorkshop/announcements/detail/208632365253244218

This was linked on the BethSoft forums. I went to Steam and checked 'News' there, which verified that they have removed the paid mod function from Steam after listening to input from less than happy users. Seems they agree they did not fully grasp what they were doing and have, happily, backed away from this bad idea. smile.gif

Posted by: haute ecole rider Apr 28 2015, 01:00 AM

Now that's interesting! I honestly did not expect Valve and Beth to back down from this new "business model."

But the article you quoted has one statement that leaves me uneasy, and yes, fairly queasy:

QUOTE
We think this made us miss the mark pretty badly, even though we believe there's a useful feature somewhere here


I doubt Valve will give up so easily.

Posted by: SubRosa Apr 28 2015, 01:26 AM

That is good news.

h.e.r. http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2014/01/21/bethesda-should-license-skyrim-for-professional-mods/. At first I thought it was merely ironic when all the paid mod stuff happened over the weekend. But it might be that useful feature. Still, I doubt Bethesda would have the vision, or enlightened self-interest, to do it.

Posted by: mALX Apr 28 2015, 01:31 AM



WOOO HOOOOO !!!! It is OVAH !!!!!!! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT !!!!!!!




Posted by: gpstr Apr 28 2015, 01:42 AM

I guarantee that it's not over.

Now Beth and Steam have weathered the worst of the storm, so it'll just be that much easier when they announce FO4, with paid mods, of which Beth will "only" take 35% of the cut.

I'm a cynic, but I think, in hindsight, that this was the plan from the beginning. I never could understand how they thought they'd attach a paid mod system to such a well-established free community, or how Beth thought they could get away with taking a 45% cut. A bit of Occam's Razor would imply that they never did expect either one - they just set the stage so that the worst of the uproar was directed at something other than their newest game AND whatever they do end up doing with that game will certainly be at least somewhat less bad than this proposal, so they can point at it as some sort of generous offer, made specifically to address the community's concerns.


Posted by: Grits Apr 28 2015, 01:48 AM

“We’ve done this because it’s clear we didn’t understand exactly what we were doing.”

biggrin.gif They got that right.

This is good news to me, too. I’ve spent too much energy on speculation already to want to keep guessing, so I’ll just play my game and finish my next mod. I hope there aren’t too many casualties in the community.

Wait, I thought FO4 was going to be FOO, FallOut Online?

Juuuust kidding. tongue.gif

Posted by: mALX Apr 28 2015, 01:52 AM



Bethesda Quote:


Some are concerned that this whole thing is leading to a world where mods are tied to one system, DRM'd and not allowed to be freely accessed. That is the exact opposite of what we stand for. Not only do we want more mods, easier to access, we're anti-DRM as far as we can be. Most people don't know, but our very own Skyrim DLC has zero DRM. We shipped Oblivion with no DRM because we didn't like how it affected the game.

Posted by: SubRosa Apr 28 2015, 02:38 AM

QUOTE(Grits @ Apr 27 2015, 08:48 PM) *

Wait, I thought FO4 was going to be FOO, FallOut Online?

Actually there was going to be a Fallout MMO made by Interplay. But Bethesda killed it in a court battle. Fallout New Vegas was the result of another lawsuit Bethesda filed against Obsidian. I was not kidding when I said before that Bethesda loves to sue other companies.

Posted by: mALX Apr 28 2015, 03:36 AM

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Apr 27 2015, 09:38 PM) *

QUOTE(Grits @ Apr 27 2015, 08:48 PM) *

Wait, I thought FO4 was going to be FOO, FallOut Online?

Actually there was going to be a Fallout MMO made by Interplay. But Bethesda killed it in a court battle. Fallout New Vegas was the result of another lawsuit Bethesda filed against Obsidian. I was not kidding when I said before that Bethesda loves to sue other companies.



I thought the Fallout MMO going to Obsidion was an agreed part of the original purchase of Fallout 3? (If I'm not mistaken).

Wow, I thought them calling Obsidion in on NV was so cool of them, had no idea it was the result of a battle!


Posted by: mALX Apr 28 2015, 05:03 AM

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Apr 27 2015, 08:26 PM) *

That is good news.

h.e.r. http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2014/01/21/bethesda-should-license-skyrim-for-professional-mods/. At first I thought it was merely ironic when all the paid mod stuff happened over the weekend. But it might be that useful feature. Still, I doubt Bethesda would have the vision, or enlightened self-interest, to do it.



Unreal Engine was released free to the public a few months ago. I have a copy of it on my new PC. It has numerous free tutorials on using it plus some free asset resources; though from what I saw they would be more suited to futuristic stuff.

Druid is building its new game on it.



Posted by: mirocu Apr 28 2015, 07:24 AM

QUOTE(gpstr @ Apr 28 2015, 02:42 AM) *

I guarantee that it's not over.

Now Beth and Steam have weathered the worst of the storm, so it'll just be that much easier when they announce FO4, with paid mods, of which Beth will "only" take 35% of the cut.

I'm a cynic, but I think, in hindsight, that this was the plan from the beginning. I never could understand how they thought they'd attach a paid mod system to such a well-established free community, or how Beth thought they could get away with taking a 45% cut. A bit of Occam's Razor would imply that they never did expect either one - they just set the stage so that the worst of the uproar was directed at something other than their newest game AND whatever they do end up doing with that game will certainly be at least somewhat less bad than this proposal, so they can point at it as some sort of generous offer, made specifically to address the community's concerns.

Having watched how politicians work, I believe there is some good weight in this post...


*keeps guns locked and loaded*

Posted by: Callidus Thorn Apr 28 2015, 08:44 AM

QUOTE(gpstr @ Apr 28 2015, 01:42 AM) *

I guarantee that it's not over.

Now Beth and Steam have weathered the worst of the storm, so it'll just be that much easier when they announce FO4, with paid mods, of which Beth will "only" take 35% of the cut.

I'm a cynic, but I think, in hindsight, that this was the plan from the beginning. I never could understand how they thought they'd attach a paid mod system to such a well-established free community, or how Beth thought they could get away with taking a 45% cut. A bit of Occam's Razor would imply that they never did expect either one - they just set the stage so that the worst of the uproar was directed at something other than their newest game AND whatever they do end up doing with that game will certainly be at least somewhat less bad than this proposal, so they can point at it as some sort of generous offer, made specifically to address the community's concerns.


"We understand our own game's communities pretty well, but stepping into an established, years old modding community in Skyrim was probably not the right place to start iterating"

This right here tells us that they'll be back, most likely with FO4. Then they don't have as much to deal with, because they can implement it right from the start, cutting out free mods entirely. They'll throw out something about how much they learned from this, tweak the numbers and promise to police it themselves, which would be far easier then. They can also just throw something into the game to stop mods working that aren't from the steam (doesn't)workshop. Then it's steam or nothing.

Posted by: ghastley Jun 12 2017, 05:57 PM

Time to necro this thread, with the announcement of "Creation Club".

It could just be a way to finally get proper mods onto PS4, but it could just be the greed coming back to the surface.


Posted by: mALX Jun 12 2017, 08:48 PM

QUOTE(ghastley @ Jun 12 2017, 12:57 PM) *

Time to necro this thread, with the announcement of "Creation Club".

It could just be a way to finally get proper mods onto PS4, but it could just be the greed coming back to the surface.



Sounds like paid mods to me, I wonder WHO from our modding community was invited to participate?

* mALX starts ticking off names from the 2015 fiasco... *





Posted by: TheCheshireKhajiit Jun 13 2017, 03:23 AM

Well, they have said they won't be replacing the free mods already out but what about future titles? They are basically marketing these Creation Club mods as official DLC so there will be benefits to having them. The PS4 issue that Ghastly mentioned for one. Cleaner integration into your game would be another. That said, they will be doing stuff that we were already getting for free, so unless they curtail the free mods somehow, why pay for things you can get elsewhere for free? It just seems troubling to Khajiit.

Posted by: mALX Jun 13 2017, 05:42 AM

QUOTE(TheCheshireKhajiit @ Jun 12 2017, 10:23 PM) *

Well, they have said they won't be replacing the free mods already out but what about future titles? They are basically marketing these Creation Club mods as official DLC so there will be benefits to having them. The PS4 issue that Ghastly mentioned for one. Cleaner integration into your game would be another. That said, they will be doing stuff that we were already getting for free, so unless they curtail the free mods somehow, why pay for things you can get elsewhere for free? It just seems troubling to Khajiit.



Ditto. I never felt like they truly gave up the idea of making back end money off the long term fans via paid mods; they just had to drop back and pretend they had in order to regroup and figure out a way to slip it by us without creating an uproar again. By renaming it and comparing it to DLC and not taking any existing mods (but still tapping into the existing modding community) = I see the same modders who jumped into the mix before suddenly coming out with similar mods with different names; or see (what I feared before) the eventual killing off of free mods or mods from any other source but Steam (putting Nexus out of business unless they want to handle the paid mods by the release of Bethesda's next games in the series of Fallout and Elder Scrolls).




Posted by: TheCheshireKhajiit Jun 13 2017, 06:35 AM

QUOTE(mALX @ Jun 12 2017, 11:42 PM) *

Ditto. I never felt like they truly gave up the idea of making back end money off the long term fans via paid mods; they just had to drop back and pretend they had in order to regroup and figure out a way to slip it by us without creating an uproar again. By renaming it and comparing it to DLC and not taking any existing mods (but still tapping into the existing modding community) = I see the same modders who jumped into the mix before suddenly coming out with similar mods with different names; or see (what I feared before) the eventual killing off of free mods or mods from any other source but Steam (putting Nexus out of business unless they want to handle the paid mods by the release of Bethesda's next games in the series of Fallout and Elder Scrolls).

Not going to lie, one of the best things about ESO to Khajiit is not having to worry about mods. For the other games though, they are part of the fun and it can be a headache sometimes (sometimes Khajiit spends more time checking and getting mods to work than playing the game). While this one is all for easier mod integration, he definitely would not want to trade free mods for it.

Posted by: ghastley Jun 13 2017, 01:32 PM

My big worry is that they'll start restricting the Construction Kit/Set/Thing to their tame developers. So I, and SubRosa, and mALX, and many others here, won't be able to make their own tweaks to their games. More than half the mods I make are for my game only, and never get published.

The ONLY reason I play TES games is that you can mod them yourself. I moved over from Dungeon Siege when the third of that series had no toolkit, and so I lost any interest. No toolkit = no purchase. Daggerfall was a close call, as all the tools were third-party, but it was free at the time I got it, and I only have Arena because it was in the Anthology set.

So if this is a step away from a freely-distributed toolkit, it's also the end of the franchise for me.

Posted by: mALX Jun 13 2017, 01:53 PM

QUOTE(ghastley @ Jun 13 2017, 08:32 AM) *

My big worry is that they'll start restricting the Construction Kit/Set/Thing to their tame developers. So I, and SubRosa, and mALX, and many others here, won't be able to make their own tweaks to their games. More than half the mods I make are for my game only, and never get published.

The ONLY reason I play TES games is that you can mod them yourself. I moved over from Dungeon Siege when the third of that series had no toolkit, and so I lost any interest. No toolkit = no purchase. Daggerfall was a close call, as all the tools were third-party, but it was free at the time I got it, and I only have Arena because it was in the Anthology set.

So if this is a step away from a freely-distributed toolkit, it's also the end of the franchise for me.



Exactly my thoughts.



Posted by: ghastley Jun 13 2017, 01:58 PM

On the other hand, maybe it will be the end of silly crap like this one: http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/84576/?

Wow! High poly! And it defies the basic laws of physics and the chains hang from the chandelier! While they won't be perfectly straight between the centre chain and the ring, you wouldn't be able to see the deflection caused by the weight of the links themselves.

Posted by: TheCheshireKhajiit Jun 13 2017, 03:28 PM

QUOTE(ghastley @ Jun 13 2017, 07:32 AM) *

My big worry is that they'll start restricting the Construction Kit/Set/Thing to their tame developers. So I, and SubRosa, and mALX, and many others here, won't be able to make their own tweaks to their games. More than half the mods I make are for my game only, and never get published.

The ONLY reason I play TES games is that you can mod them yourself. I moved over from Dungeon Siege when the third of that series had no toolkit, and so I lost any interest. No toolkit = no purchase. Daggerfall was a close call, as all the tools were third-party, but it was free at the time I got it, and I only have Arena because it was in the Anthology set.

So if this is a step away from a freely-distributed toolkit, it's also the end of the franchise for me.

And that's what Khajiit is fearful of; that they will curtail free mods by not allowing everyone to have access to the creation kit.

Posted by: ghastley Aug 31 2017, 02:59 PM

I can't remember where I read it now, but someone was saying that the CC developers are constrained by their agreements from developing mods outside CC. I.e. no more "free mods" from those authors. It's all starting to look like the model for Uber drivers, where you'd become a de-facto employee without any of the benefits.

Who knows how many were signed up to prevent them developing any more mods, and then didn't have their proposal for CC content approved. Or find that someone else is given the job of creating their idea.

I'm glad I stayed away from it.

Edit: and here's part of an interesting post on Beth's Fallout Fourm.

"So here is what I see as a future scenario. CC will continue to force the ba2 etc content on to people's systems with a series of updates. On systems where the OS cannot actually be accessed directly, this CC content will gradually fill up all available space where free mods were stored. At that point the user will be asked to delete free mods to make room for more potentially paid content or the program will not run. Once the free content is gone completely, the goal will have been achieved. Paid mods or no mods."


Posted by: mALX Aug 31 2017, 05:23 PM

QUOTE(ghastley @ Aug 31 2017, 09:59 AM) *

I can't remember where I read it now, but someone was saying that the CC developers are constrained by their agreements from developing mods outside CC. I.e. no more "free mods" from those authors. It's all starting to look like the model for Uber drivers, where you'd become a de-facto employee without any of the benefits.

Who knows how many were signed up to prevent them developing any more mods, and then didn't have their proposal for CC content approved. Or find that someone else is given the job of creating their idea.

I'm glad I stayed away from it.

Edit: and here's part of an interesting post on Beth's Fallout Fourm.

"So here is what I see as a future scenario. CC will continue to force the ba2 etc content on to people's systems with a series of updates. On systems where the OS cannot actually be accessed directly, this CC content will gradually fill up all available space where free mods were stored. At that point the user will be asked to delete free mods to make room for more potentially paid content or the program will not run. Once the free content is gone completely, the goal will have been achieved. Paid mods or no mods."


I heard that said too, I can't remember where either.

Your predicted future = That is a scary thought; but I can't say I haven't had it in the back of my mind since this entire paid mods fiasco first reared its ugly head a year or more ago. They caved too quickly then for it to be believable, I got the feeling then that they were just dropping back 5 yards to punt (taking a visual step back while actually they were just planning a new strategy).

One of the reasons I hated XBox games was the forced updates or you couldn't play your game = I used to let it update and then unplug my internet access; go to the hard drive and remove the patches; and stay offline to play.

But this has always been my biggest fear with (and why I hated us being forced to use) Steam being over our games we paid for. verysad.gif



Posted by: ghastley Aug 31 2017, 06:03 PM

I don't see this as Steam-related in any way. It looks like they're trying to get around Sony's restrictions for PS4 and every other platform is suffering.

Posted by: Cain Sep 1 2017, 01:02 PM

Hopefully, someone comes up with a way to block the CC content from auto-dl'ing.

Posted by: TheCheshireKhajiit Sep 1 2017, 04:03 PM

Couldn't you set the game to no auto updates?

Posted by: Cain Sep 1 2017, 04:07 PM

Yep, but if you would ever need to update it for something, you'd get the CC content shoved down your throat. A lot of speculation is that this is a bug by Bethesda (par for the course).

Posted by: SubRosa Sep 1 2017, 05:30 PM

I do not see any option to turn off auto updates. All it gives me is 3 options: Always keep this game up to date, Only update this game when I launch it, and High Priority, always update this game before others.

So it is either offline mode forever, or update.

Posted by: TheCheshireKhajiit Sep 2 2017, 05:09 AM

QUOTE(Cain @ Sep 1 2017, 10:07 AM) *

Yep, but if you would ever need to update it for something, you'd get the CC content shoved down your throat. A lot of speculation is that this is a bug by Bethesda (par for the course).

Well Khajiit thinks it's a fairly safe bet that any future updates will be for this "Creation Club" junk. Therefore you'd not be missing anything if you didn't update your game ever again.


QUOTE(SubRosa @ Sep 1 2017, 11:30 AM) *

I do not see any option to turn off auto updates. All it gives me is 3 options: Always keep this game up to date, Only update this game when I launch it, and High Priority, always update this game before others.

So it is either offline mode forever, or update.

Well PC folks can delete the excess data, so its not a big deal for PC users. Khajiit was mainly asking about the no auto update solution for PS4 and XB1 users, because this one thinks Cain is playing either Fallout4 or Skyrim on a PS4. Maybe, Khajiit is mistaken?

https://steamcommunity.com/app/377160/discussions/0/1473095331510843307/

Posted by: SubRosa Sep 2 2017, 04:25 PM

QUOTE(TheCheshireKhajiit @ Sep 2 2017, 12:09 AM) *

https://steamcommunity.com/app/377160/discussions/0/1473095331510843307/

Now that is interesting. I looked and saw those cc* files instantly. It looks to me that Bethesda downloaded all the assets for their micro dlc. Only the .esp files are missing. So why should I bother buying their micro dlc, when I can just create a .esp file of my own for everything I want? Thanks for giving away all that stuff for free Bethesda!

I just extracted all the Gauss Rifle Prototype files from their archives. I think I am going to use the meshes and textures to replace the vanilla Gauss Rifle with them.

Posted by: ghastley Sep 2 2017, 08:36 PM

Not much different from giving PC users SE itself. It's the console users that can't use it without paying, and they're the main market.

Posted by: mALX Sep 2 2017, 08:55 PM

QUOTE(TheCheshireKhajiit @ Sep 2 2017, 12:09 AM) *

Well PC folks can delete the excess data, so its not a big deal for PC users. Khajiit was mainly asking about the no auto update solution for PS4 and XB1 users, because this one thinks Cain is playing either Fallout4 or Skyrim on a PS4. Maybe, Khajiit is mistaken?

https://steamcommunity.com/app/377160/discussions/0/1473095331510843307/


What I did on the XBox for forced patches that I didn't want was to let them download everything; then go into offline mode. (I just pulled the internet cable from the back of the XBox). Then go into the memory and find the patches, delete them. As long as I stayed offline that worked. The second I went online they wanted to re-patch the game or shut me down. So I'd let them, then do the same thing all over again.

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Sep 2 2017, 11:25 AM) *

QUOTE(TheCheshireKhajiit @ Sep 2 2017, 12:09 AM) *

https://steamcommunity.com/app/377160/discussions/0/1473095331510843307/

Now that is interesting. I looked and saw those cc* files instantly. It looks to me that Bethesda downloaded all the assets for their micro dlc. Only the .esp files are missing. So why should I bother buying their micro dlc, when I can just create a .esp file of my own for everything I want? Thanks for giving away all that stuff for free Bethesda!

I just extracted all the Gauss Rifle Prototype files from their archives. I think I am going to use the meshes and textures to replace the vanilla Gauss Rifle with them.


laugh.gif CC has its first pirate! rollinglaugh.gif






Posted by: TheCheshireKhajiit Sep 2 2017, 09:45 PM

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Sep 2 2017, 10:25 AM) *

QUOTE(TheCheshireKhajiit @ Sep 2 2017, 12:09 AM) *

https://steamcommunity.com/app/377160/discussions/0/1473095331510843307/

Now that is interesting. I looked and saw those cc* files instantly. It looks to me that Bethesda downloaded all the assets for their micro dlc. Only the .esp files are missing. So why should I bother buying their micro dlc, when I can just create a .esp file of my own for everything I want? Thanks for giving away all that stuff for free Bethesda!

I just extracted all the Gauss Rifle Prototype files from their archives. I think I am going to use the meshes and textures to replace the vanilla Gauss Rifle with them.

This lends even more credence to Ghastly's supposition that the downloading of all CC content may be a bug.

Oh and "Avast me hearties! Arrrrrr!!"

Posted by: Cain Sep 3 2017, 02:06 PM

QUOTE(TheCheshireKhajiit @ Sep 2 2017, 12:09 AM) *

QUOTE(Cain @ Sep 1 2017, 10:07 AM) *

Yep, but if you would ever need to update it for something, you'd get the CC content shoved down your throat. A lot of speculation is that this is a bug by Bethesda (par for the course).

Well Khajiit thinks it's a fairly safe bet that any future updates will be for this "Creation Club" junk. Therefore you'd not be missing anything if you didn't update your game ever again.


QUOTE(SubRosa @ Sep 1 2017, 11:30 AM) *

I do not see any option to turn off auto updates. All it gives me is 3 options: Always keep this game up to date, Only update this game when I launch it, and High Priority, always update this game before others.

So it is either offline mode forever, or update.

Well PC folks can delete the excess data, so its not a big deal for PC users. Khajiit was mainly asking about the no auto update solution for PS4 and XB1 users, because this one thinks Cain is playing either Fallout4 or Skyrim on a PS4. Maybe, Khajiit is mistaken?

https://steamcommunity.com/app/377160/discussions/0/1473095331510843307/

Nah, no PS4 for me anymore - built my PC about a year ago. But, when the missus turned on the PS4 to play Crash Bandicoot yesterday, it was auto updating FO4, so my HDD is already infected.

Posted by: TheCheshireKhajiit Sep 3 2017, 02:12 PM

QUOTE(Cain @ Sep 3 2017, 08:06 AM) *

Nah, no PS4 for me anymore - built my PC about a year ago. But, when the missus turned on the PS4 to play Crash Bandicoot yesterday, it was auto updating FO4, so my HDD is already infected.

Boooo! Well, Khajiit would go ahead and set it to no auto update to keep any future updates from junking up your HD.

*Crap. Khajiit just remembered that as soon as he turns on his PS4 again, it will download that patch. May just delete F4 from the PS4 altogether. Probably won't ever play it on PS4 again.

Posted by: Cain Sep 3 2017, 03:55 PM

Just had to pause the Steam dl for it, too. Probably won't update or play until I learn anything new about this debacle.

Posted by: TheCheshireKhajiit Sep 3 2017, 04:12 PM

QUOTE(Cain @ Sep 3 2017, 09:55 AM) *

Just had to pause the Steam dl for it, too. Probably won't update or play until I learn anything new about this debacle.

Well as far as Khajiit can tell, on PC it doesn't actually hurt anything; you just have to update F4 Script Extender if you use mods that require it.

Posted by: Decrepit Sep 4 2017, 04:43 PM

Not being involved with Skyrim at the moment I knew nothing of this thread's existence until brought to my attention on the General Discussion Forum the other day. Can't say I wasn't expecting this to rear its ugly head again at some point. I can say that I'm less than ecstatic about it. Much less. Much much less. This sort of thing is unlike to ever die unless users stand our ground and refuse to participate. (Easy for me, but I'm not Beth's primary audience.) Possibly refuse to purchase any future Beth titles that supports it. Not likely to happen. Besides, my guess is that there is a ready market for paid mods on Playstation, which so far as I know remains free-mod denied. I'd link some recently watched YouTube videos on the matter, but suspect you've seen 'em all.

Posted by: TheCheshireKhajiit Sep 5 2017, 04:29 AM

QUOTE(Decrepit @ Sep 4 2017, 10:43 AM) *

Not being involved with Skyrim at the moment I knew nothing of this thread's existence until brought to my attention on the General Discussion Forum the other day. Can't say I wasn't expecting this to rear its ugly head again at some point. I can say that I'm less than ecstatic about it. Much less. Much much less. This sort of thing is unlike to ever die unless users stand our ground and refuse to participate. (Easy for me, but I'm not Beth's primary audience.) Possibly refuse to purchase any future Beth titles that supports it. Not likely to happen. Besides, my guess is that there is a ready market for paid mods on Playstation, which so far as I know remains free-mod denied. I'd link some recently watched YouTube videos on the matter, but suspect you've seen 'em all.

Welcome D! Khajiit believes your assertion that this paid mod conflict will never go away unless consumers simply refuse to purchase any more Bethesda games/content. As you also pointed out, that's not likely to happen. It's very sad, but man's greed will always win out it seems. They couldn't get it to fly one way so they relabeled it and changed the semantics of it to try it again.

Posted by: ghastley Sep 5 2017, 05:21 PM

It's not just "paid mods" - it's also "mods for PS4". Sony won't allow user-generated content unless it comes from Bethesda, so the mini-DLC is the only way they'll get any. I suspect the bsa's are being made part of the "base" to avoid restrictions on mod space - only the .esl's will count against that limit. However, all other users of the game on other platforms are suffering from the way it's being implemented.

The bottom line is that version updates will become more frequent, as they'll consist of new DLC bsa's, If you delete them, you're just wasting bandwidth, as they'll come down again with the next "update" to the game.

My big concern is for the mod authors who joined the Creation Club, who may now be restricted from making free mods, and are effectively working for Bethesda without actually being employees.

Posted by: Decrepit Sep 5 2017, 06:23 PM

Speaking of concerns, one of mine is when new free mods begai cutting into the potential profits Beth makes from already existent monetized equivalents or near equivalents. I can see Beth's legal department going after "unfair" competition that affects their bottom line. Maybe not right away, maybe not ever. But I can't rule it out.

Posted by: Decrepit Sep 10 2017, 12:44 AM

Gopher - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duuP2uSFzlU.

Posted by: ghastley Sep 13 2017, 01:14 AM

A couple of interesting developments:

SKSE64 alpha is available - primarily for mod authors to provide feedback. That removes my concern that it was on hold pending CC negotiations (maybe they're finished, and can get back to work?)

There's an announcement that download of CC content may get eliminated for PC. It always looked like a console thing only, so hopefully it goes that way. AS long as CC doesn't barrage us with patches that break SKSE64 each time, we have hope.

Posted by: TheCheshireKhajiit Sep 13 2017, 03:49 PM

QUOTE(ghastley @ Sep 12 2017, 07:14 PM) *

A couple of interesting developments:

SKSE64 alpha is available - primarily for mod authors to provide feedback. That removes my concern that it was on hold pending CC negotiations (maybe they're finished, and can get back to work?)

There's an announcement that download of CC content may get eliminated for PC. It always looked like a console thing only, so hopefully it goes that way. AS long as CC doesn't barrage us with patches that break SKSE64 each time, we have hope.

Wow, so some good news! Thanks G! Khajiit really would like to get back into Skyrim, but he doesn't want to go back to the original and without a Script Extender the Special Edition is a no go too. Good to hear they are making progress.

Posted by: ghastley Sep 13 2017, 04:26 PM

It's a first step, anyway. The word is that SkyUI 5.1 will work after you convert the esp via the new CK, but there may be an extra step needed on top. I've installed it, and will start testing my "Hulk Out!" mod soon - I want to get SkyUI working first.

Mods depending on it will take some time to be converted up, and some are expected to break (hence the alpha status).


Edit:
I had a few issues finding the right meshes to put in the SE folders, but the scripts for Hulking worked perfectly! Much easier than killing the Old Orc, who kept one-shotting my archer. It took half-a-dozen reloads to give him his good death.

I haven't installed SkyUI yet, as I realised I was using the 4.1 version in LE, probably because of a change in 5.1 that I didn't want. I just can't remember what it was. I'll probably try to install the one I have before downloading a newer one.


Posted by: Decrepit Sep 17 2017, 10:25 AM

YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHIFg4s44ew.

Posted by: TheCheshireKhajiit Sep 18 2017, 04:14 AM

QUOTE(Decrepit @ Sep 17 2017, 04:25 AM) *

YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHIFg4s44ew.

Ja, Khajiit has seen this mod on Nexus. Honestly, the "Creation Club News" thing on the main title menu doesn't bother this one, so he will not be downloading it. It's easy enough to simply ignore it.

Posted by: ghastley Sep 19 2017, 02:12 PM

SkyUI 4.1 stood up well to SE conversion and MCM is working well enough for me to port over Auto-Unload Ammo. (How did we ever live without that one?)

I haven't yet packaged everything back into its new bsa's, just using loose files for now. I'll need to do that soon before bringing over more mods. Even if SKSE64 gets fully released soon, and the mod authors start doing the work for me, I'll want their files out of the way of my own WIP's.

I'm running SE single-screen, as all the extra visual effects are overloading the twin GX680's if I use triple monitors. I'll start experimenting with turning things down a bit and see what's acceptable soon. Some of the stuff, like lens flare aren't helpful, and were done just because they could. Just like the abhorrent blood spatter on the HUD, they're simulating the wrong things. I'm not playing a character carrying a camera, but one using the Mark I eyeball (paired). Since there isn't a focus control, I don't want simulated myopia for my archer, so DOF has to go, too. There are probably a few LOD setting to tweak, too.

Posted by: TheCheshireKhajiit Sep 20 2017, 05:53 AM

QUOTE(ghastley @ Sep 19 2017, 08:12 AM) *

SkyUI 4.1 stood up well to SE conversion and MCM is working well enough for me to port over Auto-Unload Ammo. (How did we ever live without that one?)

I haven't yet packaged everything back into its new bsa's, just using loose files for now. I'll need to do that soon before bringing over more mods. Even if SKSE64 gets fully released soon, and the mod authors start doing the work for me, I'll want their files out of the way of my own WIP's.

I'm running SE single-screen, as all the extra visual effects are overloading the twin GX680's if I use triple monitors. I'll start experimenting with turning things down a bit and see what's acceptable soon. Some of the stuff, like lens flare aren't helpful, and were done just because they could. Just like the abhorrent blood spatter on the HUD, they're simulating the wrong things. I'm not playing a character carrying a camera, but one using the Mark I eyeball (paired). Since there isn't a focus control, I don't want simulated myopia for my archer, so DOF has to go, too. There are probably a few LOD setting to tweak, too.

This is encouraging news.

Posted by: Decrepit Oct 3 2017, 02:56 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEEyreMsGpo, a new (as of 3 Oct 17) YouTube video by Zaric Zhakaron.

Posted by: mALX Oct 3 2017, 07:36 PM

QUOTE(Decrepit @ Oct 3 2017, 09:56 AM) *

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEEyreMsGpo, a new (as of 3 Oct 17) YouTube video by Zaric Zhakaron.


His dire predictions at the end match mine from the original paid mod scandal = and I'm still sure it will come to pass in their upcoming game releases.





Posted by: TheCheshireKhajiit Oct 4 2017, 05:40 PM

The disease that is Creation Club spreads. https://bethesda.net/en/article/5il8i3DTmEowuaEgk8gCWM/skyrim-creation-club-now-live

Posted by: monkeyemoness Oct 5 2017, 12:56 AM

I honestly laughed when I saw the new things coming with the Creation Club. At first I reasoned that Oblivion did something very similar but like

It's legit weapons and armor. Weapons and armor from previous games, yes, but still. And a Zombie mode. The only one that didn't feel awkward was the Frostfall ripoff because hey, console players get to play that now. For a fee.

It's hard to keep my optimism but at least I'm laughing on my descent.

Posted by: Decrepit Apr 23 2019, 12:59 PM

Not being a Skyrim guy, I was unaware of this particular 'issue,' if issue it is, until seeing a link for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtbOSlttlt4 amongst today's YouTube recommendations. For those who DO play Skyrim on PC, is what's discussed accurate?

Posted by: ghastley Apr 23 2019, 02:00 PM

Stability of SKSE was one reason I play Skyrim LE, not SE. I declined the invitation to join Creation Club as an unpaid employee, and stopped porting my mods over.

The other was the over-heavy graphical changes that didn't actually improve anything, but prevented me from running the triple-monitor configuration I prefer. And by the time I turned off all the things I didn't like, it looked the same as LE, just a bit blurred and over-saturated.


Posted by: Grits Apr 23 2019, 03:27 PM

This is the reason I still have Skyrim LE on my PC. I have tried to play (and I’m still trying to play) Skyrim SE on my Xbox, and it’s a huge issue. I have not been able to keep a load order long enough to get a character out of Whiterun in my Skyrim SE Xbox games. Every time I start a play session there’s the question of which mods will disappear from the save, maybe to reappear later. It’s incredibly frustrating.

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