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> The Ultimate TES game, What would you like to see Bethesda do?
Vital
post Mar 27 2014, 09:25 AM
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I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this but it's not directly related to Skyrim, Oblivion or any of the older games and is a general discussion about an RPG series (The Elder Scrolls) so it seemed the best fit smile.gif

Just to clarify: This is not a "Which TES game is the best" thread. It is a thread to discuss the various features seen in any of the TES games, whether you liked them or not, how they could've been done better, why they should've left them out, what they should've had instead/as well, etc etc...

Ultimately it is a discussion about what would be the ideal Elder Scrolls Game in your opinion and how Bethesda could combine all the failures and successes of the previous games in order to create this. If you're already happy with one game, how could it be made better? (It can't be perfect tongue.gif)

Feel free to talk about different mods and games other than TES and how these could be implemented into the game as well.


To start:

I personally would love to see a combination of Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim (these being the only TES games I've played in depth) put into one game. The alien environment, number of factions, lack of hand-holding and so on from Morrowind, combined with the brilliant questlines and general feel (I can't explain this one but it just.... is) of Oblivion and the better combat, crafting and mechanical superiority of Skyrim.

This is just a brief description of some of the things I would like to see. I could write a 30 page essay on this and if this thread gets response I will put more stuff up. Anyway, what are you guy's thoughts?


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mirocu
post Mar 27 2014, 09:41 AM
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Great thread idea! I´ve been thinking the same for a long time, actually smile.gif

I pretty much agree on the combination of the last three games there, though I don´t have any comment on Skyrim since I haven´t played it. My favourite is Oblivion, I love and adore the environment and the music. The combat is good and I love that we can make our own spells however we want them basically.

Though... It would have been a good idea not to have the FG porter follow me around once I´m a part of the Guild. And it would have been an even better idea being able to delete spells in a game where you can make hundreds yourself, don´t you think, Beth? rolleyes.gif

I would also have liked if not every animal spotting me attacked me, at least after a certain level. What´s the point in fighting mudcrabs and rats when you´re at level 20 or higher?

All this, and a few things more, are what I can come up with regarding Oblivion. Other than that I´m struggling to come up with something else I would like to change. Maybe in a later post... wink.gif


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Grits
post Mar 27 2014, 10:52 AM
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I like what you said so far, Vital.

My ultimate game would cover all of Tamriel. It would include various customizable modes such as Needs where you must eat, drink, and sleep, Exposure where weather has an effect on your character, and Consequences where certain deeds or accomplishments prevent access to others. These elements could be configured or disabled through a menu system like the Mod Configuration Menu mod for Skyrim.

I must emphasize customizable modes since I would always pick leaving options open over having the game limit the player. So while I might decide that being caught murdering anyone will get my character kicked out of the Mages Guild or that earning certain daedric artifacts will prevent my character from using chapels (Consequences mode), I wouldn’t want to make those choices for all players or even for myself with a future character. I can’t anticipate all of the ways I’ll want to play, so I don’t expect game developers to manage it.


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mirocu
post Mar 27 2014, 11:02 AM
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Good points there, Grits goodjob.gif



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Vital
post Mar 27 2014, 11:33 AM
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Good points indeed, Grits smile.gif

I agree completely about customisable modes. This is something I am surprised is not in more games, particularly games like TES. It could include things like HUD display, needs, settings, weather exposure, other "hardcore" rules etc. That way they can please everyone from the young, "casual gamers" (a term I despise for a million reasons) to the more roleplay focused players, like most of the people on this site.

One small thing that I read is in Arena: You can only have one daedric/aedric artefact at a time. Whether this means you sell one, or leave it locked away in your house, for me this would be great. Unless I get rid of a daedric artefact, I cannot gain the quest for another. As soon as I get rid of it I can. Another thing that could be customisable.

Mirocu mentioned a big one, Spell creation. Why they abandoned this (and many of the pre-made spells) I have no idea. Why Beth? Just why??????


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mirocu
post Mar 27 2014, 11:47 AM
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QUOTE(Vital @ Mar 27 2014, 11:33 AM) *

One small thing that I read is in Arena: You can only have one daedric/aedric artefact at a time. Whether this means you sell one, or leave it locked away in your house, for me this would be great. Unless I get rid of a daedric artefact, I cannot gain the quest for another. As soon as I get rid of it I can. Another thing that could be customisable.

So much this!

While I do want freedom of choice, being able to serve just one deity at a time just makes more sense. If this is the case in Arena I definitely support it smile.gif


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Vital
post Mar 27 2014, 12:02 PM
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QUOTE(mirocu @ Mar 27 2014, 09:47 PM) *

QUOTE(Vital @ Mar 27 2014, 11:33 AM) *

One small thing that I read is in Arena: You can only have one daedric/aedric artefact at a time. Whether this means you sell one, or leave it locked away in your house, for me this would be great. Unless I get rid of a daedric artefact, I cannot gain the quest for another. As soon as I get rid of it I can. Another thing that could be customisable.

So much this!

While I do want freedom of choice, being able to serve just one deity at a time just makes more sense. If this is the case in Arena I definitely support it smile.gif

I agree entirely. As long as you are able to ditch the deity you serve (possibly with some consequence other than losing the artefact) and/or change to serve another I think this system makes lots of sense and works well.


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Grits
post Mar 27 2014, 12:04 PM
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Some more thoughts after my first cup of coffee. smile.gif

Racial bonuses and Birthsigns. I would like these to make a real difference to characters. I like to play against type, but that means there should be an actual type to start with. For example my orc mage should have a much tougher beginning than an Altmer mage as a result of their racial bonuses. However an orc born under one of the mage birthsigns might reasonably choose that path in life.

Daedric realms: yes please. I would like vampires, werewolves, and other daedric creatures to have a much harder time fitting in on Mundus. The realms of their corresponding princes should feel like a more natural home than Tamriel for daedric-focused characters. Which brings me to…

More factions. My Volkihar vampire should be randomly attacked by Boethiah cultists, for example. Regular merchants (not under Thieves Guild influence) should refuse to trade with my character if he’s wearing Thieves Guild armor. A Thane of some Skyrim hold should have to give up their title in order to earn similar status in another court, but allies of their Jarl might provide honorary status. I suppose this also ties in with Consequences. Gaining bonuses from altars should mean choosing a religion first.

Khajiit: Let’s see some more of the different forms. Let’s get to play some of them, too!

And finally (for now), ARGONIANS! Not only can they breathe underwater, they should be able to see underwater with perfect clarity as well. Their swimming animations should be crocodilian awesome, not the sad frog-like thrashing of the other races. I want to see submerged settlements with predictable current “roads” between them. Digitigrade feet, optional mid-game gender swapping, a special tail whip attack, and no mammary glands, please. Tamriel’s weirdest race has huge possibilities. I’d love to see Black Marsh as a completely alien world to an elf or human.


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ghastley
post Mar 27 2014, 12:58 PM
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Having played a number of games with a LAN co-op mode where a small number (even just two or three) of players can play together, I'd like that option. Where it worked well, you had a team of players working together, instead of a single player and followers/minions, so it basically used the single-player mechanics, but permitted the supporting cast to be controlled by additional players. Instead of hiring Marcurio, for example, you'd meet another player in the Bee and Barb, and agree to go adventuring together as equals. One player hosts the game, and therefore gets the choice of location, and the game prevents PvP by making friendly hits ineffective.

That's what everyone was asking for, not the MMO we got.

Another thought is to have the "ultimate game" have borders. You can start in any province, with local game rule variations. No levitation in Cyrodiil, but it's OK in Morrowind. Everything in Skyrim is immune to frost. If you want a change of rules, restart in another province.


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McBadgere
post Mar 27 2014, 01:54 PM
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I've wondered about something like what you have in Assassin's Creed 2, where you (Ezio) inherit an old Villa, which has a small town inside its walls...As you do...Anyways, one of the things you can do is upgrade it all and in return, you get money every 20 mins...Which then goes to help you upgrade more/buy more stuff...

It'd be like Hearthfire, where you could "Buy" the shops for your village and then you'd do quests for the traders...And the more quests you do, the more money you get etc...

Aaaand, if you created armour for the blacksmith, you'd get a bigger return from the shop when they were sold, than if you just left him to it with his lesser skill etc...Same with the alchemy shop etc...

This would mean that if you were inclined to not be an adventurer as such, of if you decided to retire after a while, you'd still be able to make money...

I'd love more armour customisation...Back to the Oblivion separate items...I hate the Skyrim all in ones...

Plus, I want all my spells back...And the ability to make spells...And to enchant any item with any spell I so wish...

And, most espescially, I want all my Ease Burden spells back...
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SubRosa
post Mar 27 2014, 06:06 PM
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Like Grits, I would most like to see consequences for your actions return to the series. The only one Aedric/Daedric artifact that Vital pointed out sounds like an excellent idea.

I would like to extend that to only being able to be in one Guild at a time, as well as making joining a Guild something that takes both effort and aptitude. Back in Morrowind there were minimum skill values you had to possess to join and advance in Guilds, that would be a good start. I think the Guild quests ought be built in such a way that you need the appropriate skills to finish them as well. For example a Thieves Guild quest should have locks you need to pick to complete it, a Mages Guild quest should require certain spells, a Fighters Guild quest should have challenges that involve defeating opponents without using spells, and so on. If you can't hack it, then you have to leave and learn that spell, get your lockpicking skill up, and so on.

I would also like to see Guild rivalries return, at least making people from diametrically opposing Guilds such as the Fighters and Thieves Guilds dislike each other. It would probably cause too much chaos if the "official" guilds like Fighters and Mages attacked one another on sight. Though Skyrim does have members of the Assassins Guild attacking your character on sight... But Grit's suggestion of a vampire having Boeithah cultists attacking them sounds great. Or a priest of Akray having necromancers come after them.

That folds into having religions that you can choose. The thing there however is that Tamriel is presented as a polytheistic place, so a person following only one deity would seem odd to me. Following the Nine however sounds perfect though, and being able to invest most of your time with one of the Divines sounds good - not the total exclusion of the other eight - just a focus on one. Since the Daedra don't seem to play that well with one another, that might work as an only one Daedric Lord. Or perhaps only a certain number (like three if you are a 4th Age Dunmer believing in the Reclamations) of non-opposing Daedra. I also think you should be able to choose an agnostic or undecided yet religion, as well as plain old atheism (its all just some magic-using clerics faking it in order to gain power and wealth after all...)

Interacting with things like altars of your religion might give you a larger bonus than undecided people. Interacting with opposing religion's altars might cause damage or curses. Likewise with interacting with people belonging to the same or other religions. There might even be a few unique spells that can only be learned by members of the same religion, like an Arkay's Wrath spell that damages only undead.

Basically I would like to see truly unique opportunities and penalties open up in the game depending upon the choices you make for your character. So no two games are the same, and you cannot do everything with a single character. Unfortunately that latter is exactly what Bethesda wants. sad.gif

This post has been edited by SubRosa: Mar 27 2014, 11:06 PM


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Vital
post Mar 28 2014, 12:23 PM
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SR, you make some great points on the factions.

I tend to only join one or occasionally two factions in any game anyway. I think you should be able to join certain factions but not advance high into all of them. As a battlemage I can join both the mages guild and fighters guild, but at some point (early on) I will have to choose between them. Or, maybe beth gives us more factions/ sub-factions. For example a separate sector of the mages guild for battlemages? You would need a certain spread between combat and magic skills to qualify for this but it would greatly benefit characters of that playstyle.

Also you should be able to quit factions, depending on your rank this could leave you unable to join ever again. This might be a little problematic regarding factions questlines though. Also, quitting a faction such as the dark brotherhood or Imperial Legion (if this was a faction) would have great consquences.

That brings me to my next point. Faction questlines should be much longer and involve a real rise through the ranks. What you said about having the necessary skills for a faction and certain quests is a brilliant idea, SR. I feel like you should start off with the real low jobs; killing rats and smugglers for the FG, collecting alchemical ingredients and attending lessons for the MG, getting the simplest pick-pocket and petty thievery jobs for the thieves guild etc etc. Once you've risen high enough and levelled up your skills you can slowly start a more interesting questline. This questline shouldn't really just come out of the blue though, it could be hinted to somehow throughout your rise through the lower ranks.

There is so much more to discuss, I believe, but I get the feeling that from everything people have said so far a game with more consequences for your actions is pretty popular...


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Callidus Thorn
post Mar 29 2014, 07:36 PM
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While I'd love to see factions improved, I'm not really sure I'd go with everything you suggest Subrosa.

Skill requirements for advancement are something I'd like to see returned, but I don't see any reason to restrict the player to one guild. Beyond the fighters guild going after the thieves guild in Morrowind I've not seen anything to suggest that the guilds are opposed to each other, and it only happened in Morrowind because of the Cammona Tong.

I could see the thieves having you run up against locked doors and stuff, but I can't agree with requiring certain spells for advancement in the mages guild. Spells of a certain rank is one thing, you can play a mage without using all the schools of magic. I wouldn't mind seeing the highest ranks locked out in this fashion though, so to be arch-mage you need to be a master of all the schools of magic.

And I don't realy see a particular reason why the fighters guild should require you to not use spells. Battlemages serve in the Legion, so it's not like they're inferior fighters, and if you can still use potions and enchanted equipment then it's not much of a restriction. Then again, if you had a sort of trial by combat thing for advancement, it would make sense. I'd actually like to see that.

But with regards to the opening post, mostly I'd like them to head back towards a more Morrowind style game, one with attributes and the chance of failing a spell or attack.


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Vital
post Mar 30 2014, 11:26 AM
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Callidus,

I think there needs to be some restriction to guild membership. If you join an organisation like the DB or Legion then I think you would be completely bound to that one faction, the FG and MG may let you be a member of each but eventually you should have to choose.


I always imagined the legion battle-mages as a sort of heavy support. Not as far from the action as the archers but not right in the thick of the action like the infantry. In Skyrim only two legion battlemages are seen in the entire game (as far as I know) and they use destruction magic to fire at a dragon. The MG is responsible for all use of magic in Tamriel, whereas there are various legal fighter organisations/mercenary groups in Tamriel separate from the FG. A battlemage uses a lot of magic and so the MG would want some control, I'd think. As I said before, a sector in the MG specifically for battlemages would be quite good.


I agree that attributes and majors/minors should be brought back. But I think the system should be slightly altered so I don't have to select majors I will never use in order to balance my levelling. As for failing spells and attacks; spells yes, melee/ranged attacks no. I know its not realistic to pick up a sword or bow and suddenly hit the target every time, but its less realistic to swing right at something and see your sword connect without any effect, IMO.


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Callidus Thorn
post Mar 30 2014, 04:40 PM
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QUOTE(Vital @ Mar 30 2014, 11:26 AM) *

Callidus,

I think there needs to be some restriction to guild membership. If you join an organisation like the DB or Legion then I think you would be completely bound to that one faction, the FG and MG may let you be a member of each but eventually you should have to choose.


I agree, there needs to be a restriction, but I don't think it needs to be on joining. The Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves Guild are both supposed to be clandestine organizations, so why should everyone automatically know you're a member? And since the duties of the Mages and Fighters Guilds don't overlap, it's not like they're competing, so they wouldn't have an issue with each other.

I think the restriction needs to be on how high you can advance in a guild, based off the character's, and player's, skills. The Fighters Guild could determine advancement through trial by combat. House rules of no magic or potions, and they provide the equipment for the fights. The Mages Guild could require you to cast various spells at various mastery levels to prove you're qualified, with the Arch-Mage needing to be a master off all the schools of magic. The Thieves Guild could have obstacle courses: traps to disarm, locks to pick or keys to steal, silent movement sections and the like, again without the use of magic/potions/enchantments, getting harder and harder as you progress through the ranks. And the Dark Brotherhood could dish out missions like in Oblivion, with a bonus for completing them in certain ways, and use the bonuses to determine if you qualify for advancement.

That way you need to be skilled to advance through the guilds, without relying on the blunt number crunching of Morrowind, and the blocks on advancement seem much more natural. Sure, with enough effort you might be able to become the master off all the guilds, but it's going to take a hell of a lot of effort to do so.

QUOTE(Vital @ Mar 30 2014, 11:26 AM) *

I always imagined the legion battle-mages as a sort of heavy support. Not as far from the action as the archers but not right in the thick of the action like the infantry. In Skyrim only two legion battlemages are seen in the entire game (as far as I know) and they use destruction magic to fire at a dragon. The MG is responsible for all use of magic in Tamriel, whereas there are various legal fighter organisations/mercenary groups in Tamriel separate from the FG. A battlemage uses a lot of magic and so the MG would want some control, I'd think. As I said before, a sector in the MG specifically for battlemages would be quite good.


I don't see any reason why a fighter/mage type character shouldn't be able to join both the Fighters and Mages Guilds, since they clearly fall into both categories. And a seperate section for battlemages is a terrible idea in my opinion, just because it caters to one very specific type of character.

QUOTE(Vital @ Mar 30 2014, 11:26 AM) *

I agree that attributes and majors/minors should be brought back. But I think the system should be slightly altered so I don't have to select majors I will never use in order to balance my levelling. As for failing spells and attacks; spells yes, melee/ranged attacks no. I know its not realistic to pick up a sword or bow and suddenly hit the target every time, but its less realistic to swing right at something and see your sword connect without any effect, IMO.


The problem with Morrowind's combat was mostly a lack of animation for misses. If you actually see the enemy dodge, or the blow slide off their armour, I don't see why missing in melee combat shouldn't make a comeback. As for balancing leveling and selection of majors, that's more of an issue with level scaling than one of attributes. And part of it goes to flaws in the gameworld design, like how in vanilla Oblivion everything pretty much stops at level 25, and beyond that enemies simply become damage sponges.


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Thomas Kaira
post Apr 1 2014, 05:04 PM
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It's rather unfortunate, but the trend for the entire previous generation of RPGs has been about removing choice. Only, instead of the linear option where you can only do one thing and nothing else, instead you can just do everything from the word go. No need to specialize, no need to plan ahead, no need to exercise that brain. It's a bad trend, and I'd like to see the adult game market return to asking you to think about things.

So, what would I want to see in my ideal TES game? Well, a lot of things, but let's start on one of the most critical aspect of an RPG: the stats and abilities of your character.

1. A more complex stat system. Skyrim was over-simplified in my eyes, as it only had two stat systems. The primary attributes, which you increased by a flat 10 points every time you level up, and the skills, which improve as you use them. But the actual meat of the game was not in the stats, it was the perks you pick every time you leveled up. It was to the point where the stats of your skill didn't actually mean much because the perks far outclassed what you could do through practicing your skills alone. I'd like to see this reversed. However, perk points would be refundable, as they represent your character's skill style. If you want to change styles, you should be allowed to do so.

2. I'd also like to see the old style attributes returned, but handled differently:
>Instead of choosing three attributes to increase every time you level up, with the amounts determined by your skill usage, you'd get a flat 5 attribute points instead that you could allocate however you wanted.
>As you improve your attributes, you will gain traits, which are minor passive abilities based on the attribute. For example, as your strength improves, you would gain traits that reduce stamina drain from holding a drawn arrow, or allows you to swing two-handed weapons faster, or gives you some extra carry capacity.
>Attribute points would be hard-capped at 250, though, so you would only be able to max out about three attributes.
>These points are non-refundable, as they represent your character's base abilities.

3. The perks themselves would be less about improving your skills and more about augmenting them. Things like unlocking new attacks with weapons or being able to do something you weren't able to do before. Things like "deal 10% more damage with bows" would be moved to traits, while perks like "you can zoom in while drawing a bow" would remain perks. To help reinforce the point, each skill would have multiple paths you can take up the perk trees to represent different playstyles. Take for example archery.
> There would be two paths, the skirmisher's path and the ranger's path. Skirmisher style would emphasize quick shooting with little thought given towards where the arrow is actually going to land, so the perks would be along these lines:
a. Quick-draw: You can draw your bow 20% faster.
b. Fleet of foot: You can move faster while you are holding an arrow at knock.
c. Rapid-draw: Immediately drawing a new arrow after firing will draw your bow 50% faster.
d. Rapid-fire: Firing your arrow as soon as it is fully drawn will deal 20% more damage.
e. Skirmisher's Intuition: Firing an arrow as soon as it is fully drawn reduces aim spread by 50%.

>Then there's the ranger's path, which emphasizes taking your time and lining up your shots.
a. Eagle-eye: You can zoom in while your bow is drawn.
b. Focused eye: The longer you hold your aim, the more accurate your shot will be, to a maximum of 50% less spread.
c. Focused aim: The longer you hold your aim, the more damaging your shot will be, to a maximum of 50% greater damage.
d. Slowed pace: Zooming in will slow time.
e. Ranger's intuition: you can see the arc your arrow will fly.


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Alexander
post Apr 2 2014, 02:09 PM
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Nice thread idea, and some great ideas here!


One thing I've always found TES games lacking in, is having a place to call home. I'll admit Skyrim did it better then the games before with the limited customization options and actually having a fast travel option there, but I'm always hoping Bethesda does it even better then they have so far.

I'd like to have a lot of customization options, no actually I'd like to have a giant load of options. From having a small hut or a bigger hut like you were able to have in Skyrim, to having your own settlement to rule over as Morrowind tried to implement but didn't really got right.

I'd like to be able to be able to place which room holds my storage chests, how many, up to a reasonable amount, of retainers I want and the matching number of homes around my mansion, whether I want a gate or moat or both.

The option to have all of my armor, weapons, books, ingredients, etc sorted automatically with the click of a button.

The option to either have a maximum amount of things to be placed in a store container or no limit there.

I could go on and on there, perhaps it's asking too much but I'd love to see Bethesda do this themselves rather then having to rely on mods to add parts of this.


Aside from that, it's been mentioned earlier in the thread, but factions could be done a lot better then they are now. I loved the idea of Morrowind being divided between 5 great houses, even if we only got to play with 3 of them, I loved the ideas behind the great houses, the vast differences in culture, history, approach to current affairs and whatnot. I would also love to see some more benefits to becoming head of a faction. Even as Archmagister of the Telvanni, I never really got the feeling of being something special.

I'd love the game to include the whole of Tamriel, and still being able to join great house Telvanni and travel to the Summerset Isles to learn magic from the Psijic order. That would be great :-)


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mirocu
post Apr 2 2014, 02:34 PM
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QUOTE(Alexander @ Apr 2 2014, 03:09 PM) *

I could go on and on there, perhaps it's asking too much but I'd love to see Bethesda do this themselves rather then having to rely on mods to add parts of this.

I´d wait for anything like that until they´ve fixed it so rain doesn´t clip through roofs when you´re outside.. tongue.gif


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Callidus Thorn
post Apr 2 2014, 02:37 PM
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QUOTE(Alexander @ Apr 2 2014, 02:09 PM) *

I could go on and on there, perhaps it's asking too much but I'd love to see Bethesda do this themselves rather then having to rely on mods to add parts of this.


As a console gamer I cannot state just how much I agree with this. It always pisses me off over at Bethsoft when something is being discussed and someone just rolls in and says "mods'll fix it" mad.gif


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mirocu
post Apr 8 2014, 08:07 AM
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QUOTE(Callidus Thorn @ Apr 2 2014, 03:37 PM) *

It always pisses me off over at Bethsoft when something is being discussed and someone just rolls in and says "mods'll fix it" mad.gif

Even though I´m on PC I still agree with this. I´d like to have a pure vanilla game but I feel forced to use third-party programs just to get the game working the way it should have worked from the beginning! mad.gif

Oh, well. I guess a perfect game would be boring anyway... biggrin.gif


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How charged with punishments the scroll,
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